Warrior pvp balance

Everybody who plays pvp knows Warriors are perfectly capable of entertaining 2 people on a node endlessly. Yes other classes are also capable of doing so, but not while at the same time bringing the amount of burst a warrior does, or the damage mitigation (not yet speaking of the ability to interrupt a heal). One of the most important fortes in this is the warrior's movement ability. Moving in and out of a fight is crucial for the warrior to stay alive and to keep applying enough pressure. Therefore, I would like to suggest a few small balance changes to the warrior's mobility which will keep warrior in this exceptional position, but at least allowing for other classes to come into consideration as well.

Trait: Warrior's sprint -> seeing that warrior's have so many movement skills, it is extremely difficult to root down a warrior for more than a few seconds. Other professions also have similar traits to increases movement. Except this secondary effect makes the warrior's variant far more important to the class than any other variant. I would suggest a cooldown on the ability where Movement skills break immobilization. Dropping the flat damage increase also seems fair considered the ability to break immob would still be there. Or alternatively reducing the duration of movement-impairing conditions like other classes have (maybe less popular because then it feels like a standard template trait).

Skill: Rush -> I feel 900 range would still be more than sufficient for this skill. This skill combined with movement skills breaking conditions allows the warrior to disengage from a fight and inmediately creating a gap bigger than many classes can bridge in a short time.

Skill: Shield Bash -> for a 2 seconds stun on a class which has access to permanent 25% increase movement speed 300 range will do instead of 450.

Next to that I think Rampage is still unplayable (I mean when you see this skill active you can only do 1 thing, which is run for your life). The ability to close gaps on this elite is fine with me because you don't have any other options in this form. But the ability to stunlock someone for more than half the entire duration of this elite is insane, seeing that it outputs a ridiculous amount of damage at the same time, And is not even worth wasting a CC skill to counterpressure because it pulses 2 stacks of stab every 3 seconds. I think you can compare this with a necro's lich form. Except necro's become very vulnerable while being able to deal high damage, warriors become even stronger while dealing high damage..

Overall, Warrior is completely outclassed by Thief and Mesmer. However, Holosmith and Soulbeast can do just as good if not better at 1v2. Considering the huge nerfs to skills like Endure Pain, Berserkers Stance, and Balanced Stance, what you are complaining about (movement abilities?) does not even make any sense. Warrior has taken a huge hit over multiple patches to things that directly effect the classes effectiveness. Nerf mobility and Warrior is for sure DOA, its one of the few things the class has left.

Once you start playing the other classes, you begin to see where the Warrior currently stands, and its not near the top anymore.

@sneakytails.5629 said:Overall, Warrior is completely outclassed by Thief and Mesmer, even Holosmith and Soulbeast can do just as good if not better at 1v2. Considering the huge nerfs to skills like Endure Pain, Berserkers Stance, and Balanced Stance, what you are complaining about (movement abilities?) does not even make any sense. Warrior has taken a huge hit over multiple patches to things that directly effect the classes effectiveness. Nerf mobility and Warrior is for sure DOA, its one of the few things the class has left.

Once you start playing the other classes, you begin to see where the Warrior currently stands, and its not near the top anymore.

Wait, how are Thief and Mesmer better at 1v2 than Warrior?

I fixed the sentence structure to reflect the ideas better, thank you grammar police.

@idolin.2831 said:

@sneakytails.5629 said:Overall, Warrior is completely outclassed by Thief and Mesmer, even Holosmith and Soulbeast can do just as good if not better at 1v2. Considering the huge nerfs to skills like Endure Pain, Berserkers Stance, and Balanced Stance, what you are complaining about (movement abilities?) does not even make any sense. Warrior has taken a huge hit over multiple patches to things that directly effect the classes effectiveness. Nerf mobility and Warrior is for sure DOA, its one of the few things the class has left.

Once you start playing the other classes, you begin to see where the Warrior currently stands, and its not near the top anymore.

Maybe because of the 24/7 Evade + Stealth and Clone mechanics those classes possessing, while dishing decent damage(conditions included) at the same time ?. Also do not forget the 1500 range escape skill when things are getting dangerous.

little tip for you Naevia Mercer.8671. Don't facetank the warrior (or any class for that matter) if you play with berserker stats. In pvp there is no class that cannot beat the warrior in a small enough time window so the decap by the warrior would matter (maybe the war can stop you from "caping" it again, if he makes good use of kiting, but he can't cap it either) or can simply tank the warrior for eternity. Everything a war can do a holo does better. Same with soulbeast (Simply a war but with 1500+ range and invis). The str war variant dies so fast if you make one single mistake, a thief is more durable in close range combat(and that is no exaggeration). If you have any problems with a warrior in pvp atm it is just a l2p issue. You are prob low gold at best, right? :anguished:

You should run from rampage anyway. It's elite transformation, short duration, very long cooldown.It gives warrior a few moments of glory, although it might achieve nothing if opponents kite him during that time.

So, in a situation where a lot of roamers will escape the warrior and have more mobility, you want to nerf our main gap closer and the only hard CC skill a GS + Axe/Shield spellbreaker has?

Honestly, there are plenty warrior skills and traits that could use a buff instead of nerfs so we'd get more options.

@sneakytails.5629 said:Overall, Warrior is completely outclassed by Thief and Mesmer. However, Holosmith and Soulbeast can do just as good if not better at 1v2. Considering the huge nerfs to skills like Endure Pain, Berserkers Stance, and Balanced Stance, what you are complaining about (movement abilities?) does not even make any sense. Warrior has taken a huge hit over multiple patches to things that directly effect the classes effectiveness. Nerf mobility and Warrior is for sure DOA, its one of the few things the class has left.

Once you start playing the other classes, you begin to see where the Warrior currently stands, and its not near the top anymore.

Thieves who are able to sustain for long in 2v1's while applying pressure tend not to be of the bursty kind unless there is a big skill gap. I suppose you are hinting at condi thieves packing a bunch of evades. Their damage can however be countered with a few well timed condi cleanses. Plus they are not allowed to make many mistakes since they do not have the higher AL, vitality,, or interruptable heals. Indeed mesmers, soulbeasts and holos can deliver big bursts but also here I feel they are far more risky. Why? Because a warrior only needs to disengage for a good 10 seconds to be back in a safe spot Whereas for the other classes one missed heal can mean the end. And it is exactly that mobility combined with the infinity heal that makes the warrior special.

I am not suggesting to nerf a warrior's mobility. 1200 to 900 range is not a nerf but a balance change. And this is how it should be done I think. Allowing for that specific advantage while still being competitive compared to other classes . Adding a cooldown to the trait of like 10-15 seconds to break immob also doesn't mean everyone will step away from it. It will only require the warrior to be more cautious in engaging 2v1s instead of endlessly kiting with ease. I feel the warrior has been pushed in that role for far too long.

'Huge nerf' also seems a bit harsh since those abilities are still being used. Endure pain & berserkers stance only needs to be timed better which is a good thing. And balanced stance duration has been decreased but the stab is better + you get immunity to crits.

@"Ferus.3165" said:little tip for you Naevia Mercer.8671. Don't facetank the warrior (or any class for that matter) if you play with berserker stats. In pvp there is no class that cannot beat the warrior in a small enough time window so the decap by the warrior would matter (maybe the war can stop you from "caping" it again, if he makes good use of kiting, but he can't cap it either) or can simply tank the warrior for eternity. Everything a war can do a holo does better. Same with soulbeast (Simply a war but with 1500+ range and invis). The str war variant dies so fast if you make one single mistake, a thief is more durable in close range combat(and that is no exaggeration). If you have any problems with a warrior in pvp atm it is just a l2p issue. You are prob low gold at best, right? :anguished:

I don't currently play with zerker stats. Pewpews you just need to line of sight. And I Hope you are referring to condi thief? Also, I don't see how my current ranking is related. So I will take anything you say from now on with a pinch of salt.

@Traveller.7496 said:So, in a situation where a lot of roamers will escape the warrior and have more mobility, you want to nerf our main gap closer and the only hard CC skill a GS + Axe/Shield spellbreaker has?

Honestly, there are plenty warrior skills and traits that could use a buff instead of nerfs so we'd get more options.

1200 to 900 range is a nerf to you? Warrior can move up to 1650 range only with 2 weapon skills. I think only thief can do better? And thief is specialized in this.. I will agree with you on the shield skill. Although you are forgetting about the 8s cd AoE unblockable condi transferring daze on full counter. which itself is not interruptable.

Best way to learn a classes weakness is to roll one yourself. You would have a lot less trouble with the mobility once you learn the timing and when to CC or not. Most fights between the same classes by players who main them go on for a lot longer than normal for this reason.

Once you roll some of the other classes you will see that they can stack annoying stuff just like Warrior can. This is a problem with the game itself and not any one class.

Warrior is good at what it does, but beyond that it struggles. Take away its meta weapon (GS) and it really struggles. Ranger is the same way with longbow.

Spellbreaker has been adjusted multiple times with nerfs to sustain and damage, at this point specs like Holosmith and Soulbeast are really close to overtaking it if not already doing so.

The best way to defeat your problems with the class is to roll one or to seriously duel alot until you figure it out.

@Naevia Mercer.8671 said:

@Traveller.7496 said:So, in a situation where a lot of roamers will escape the warrior and have more mobility, you want to nerf our main gap closer and the only hard CC skill a GS + Axe/Shield spellbreaker has?

Honestly, there are plenty warrior skills and traits that could use a buff instead of nerfs so we'd get more options.

1200 to 900 is obviously a nerf. I can already the difference between bull charge (900) and rush (1200).Revenant can move up to 1800 range with 2 skills (shiro and sword). He can do it almost instantly whereas warrior is a lot longer since it doesn't teleport.Additionally, warrior is huge tell in what he does. You see it coming or running away. You can more easily avoid it.Thief, revenant, guardian : all of them teleport.

@Naevia Mercer.8671 said:Everybody who plays pvp knows Warriors are perfectly capable of entertaining 2 people on a node endlessly. Yes other classes are also capable of doing so, but not while at the same time bringing the amount of burst a warrior does, or the damage mitigation (not yet speaking of the ability to interrupt a heal). One of the most important fortes in this is the warrior's movement ability. Moving in and out of a fight is crucial for the warrior to stay alive and to keep applying enough pressure. Therefore, I would like to suggest a few small balance changes to the warrior's mobility which will keep warrior in this exceptional position, but at least allowing for other classes to come into consideration as well.

Trait: Warrior's sprint -> seeing that warrior's have so many movement skills, it is extremely difficult to root down a warrior for more than a few seconds. Other professions also have similar traits to increases movement. Except this secondary effect makes the warrior's variant far more important to the class than any other variant. I would suggest a cooldown on the ability where Movement skills break immobilization. Dropping the flat damage increase also seems fair considered the ability to break immob would still be there. Or alternatively reducing the duration of movement-impairing conditions like other classes have (maybe less popular because then it feels like a standard template trait).

Skill: Rush -> I feel 900 range would still be more than sufficient for this skill. This skill combined with movement skills breaking conditions allows the warrior to disengage from a fight and inmediately creating a gap bigger than many classes can bridge in a short time.

Skill: Shield Bash -> for a 2 seconds stun on a class which has access to permanent 25% increase movement speed 300 range will do instead of 450.

Next to that I think Rampage is still unplayable (I mean when you see this skill active you can only do 1 thing, which is run for your life). The ability to close gaps on this elite is fine with me because you don't have any other options in this form. But the ability to stunlock someone for more than half the entire duration of this elite is insane, seeing that it outputs a ridiculous amount of damage at the same time, And is not even worth wasting a CC skill to counterpressure because it pulses 2 stacks of stab every 3 seconds. I think you can compare this with a necro's lich form. Except necro's become very vulnerable while being able to deal high damage, warriors become even stronger while dealing high damage..

Do core warriors honestly give you that much trouble to ask those be nerfed?

I doubt the problem you're experiencing is caused by what you listed.

@TheBravery.9615 said:

@Naevia Mercer.8671 said:Everybody who plays pvp knows Warriors are perfectly capable of entertaining 2 people on a node endlessly. Yes other classes are also capable of doing so, but not while at the same time bringing the amount of burst a warrior does, or the damage mitigation (not yet speaking of the ability to interrupt a heal). One of the most important fortes in this is the warrior's movement ability. Moving in and out of a fight is crucial for the warrior to stay alive and to keep applying enough pressure. Therefore, I would like to suggest a few small balance changes to the warrior's mobility which will keep warrior in this exceptional position, but at least allowing for other classes to come into consideration as well.

Trait: Warrior's sprint -> seeing that warrior's have so many movement skills, it is extremely difficult to root down a warrior for more than a few seconds. Other professions also have similar traits to increases movement. Except this secondary effect makes the warrior's variant far more important to the class than any other variant. I would suggest a cooldown on the ability where Movement skills break immobilization. Dropping the flat damage increase also seems fair considered the ability to break immob would still be there. Or alternatively reducing the duration of movement-impairing conditions like other classes have (maybe less popular because then it feels like a standard template trait).

Skill: Rush -> I feel 900 range would still be more than sufficient for this skill. This skill combined with movement skills breaking conditions allows the warrior to disengage from a fight and inmediately creating a gap bigger than many classes can bridge in a short time.

Skill: Shield Bash -> for a 2 seconds stun on a class which has access to permanent 25% increase movement speed 300 range will do instead of 450.

Next to that I think Rampage is still unplayable (I mean when you see this skill active you can only do 1 thing, which is run for your life). The ability to close gaps on this elite is fine with me because you don't have any other options in this form. But the ability to stunlock someone for more than half the entire duration of this elite is insane, seeing that it outputs a ridiculous amount of damage at the same time, And is not even worth wasting a CC skill to counterpressure because it pulses 2 stacks of stab every 3 seconds. I think you can compare this with a necro's lich form. Except necro's become very vulnerable while being able to deal high damage, warriors become even stronger while dealing high damage..

OP doesn't know what he is talking about. It's random rambling and false accusations xD. OP is prob not even in gold and thinks that rush should only travel 900 units because other classes don't have gapclosers to follow xD. Neavia rush is not a teleport. Mesmer with 30sec cd utility blink alone has more mobility than the two gs movement skills combined. And when you see rampage you can only run for your life??? What a joke. Really just stop talking, you are embarrassing yourself.

@Naevia Mercer.8671 said:Skill: Rush -> I feel 900 range would still be more than sufficient for this skill. This skill combined with movement skills breaking conditions allows the warrior to disengage from a fight and inmediately creating a gap bigger than many classes can bridge in a short time.

Nice joke. Instant ports say hi. I think you can immobilize warrior during cast of this skill. You can interrupt it, too.

@Naevia Mercer.8671 said:Skill: Shield Bash -> for a 2 seconds stun on a class which has access to permanent 25% increase movement speed 300 range will do instead of 450.

Shield Bash was already nerfed by making its animation very slow at the beginning, so for mobility purposes, Shield Bash is pretty bad.

I find these suggested changes having only annoyance character, instead of actual balance character.

You forgot that WvW exists and the mobility of certain classes there is insane. Just because people don't play these builds in PvP doesn't mean they don't exist. I doubt anet will ever split skill ranges between game modes.

If there is mobility that needs nerf, it's thief/ranger/mesmer/engineer's.

@Aigleborgne.2981 said:

1200 to 900 is obviously a nerf. I can already the difference between bull charge (900) and rush (1200).Revenant can move up to 1800 range with 2 skills (shiro and sword). He can do it almost instantly whereas warrior is a lot longer since it doesn't teleport.Additionally, warrior is huge tell in what he does. You see it coming or running away. You can more easily avoid it.Thief, revenant, guardian : all of them teleport.

I did say weapon skills, If we include non-weapon skills a warrior would have 2100 range. And you are right they are huge tells. But you see these movement abilities are being used just as much to disengage as to engage a fight, which cannot be said for revenants since they require targets. So it would be good to speed it up like bull's charge to make it more difficult to counter, while reducing 1200 to 900 range. Only talking about rush now.

@Ferus.3165 said:

OP doesn't know what he is talking about. It's random rambling and false accusations xD. OP is prob not even in gold and thinks that rush should only travel 900 units because other classes don't have gapclosers to follow xD. Neavia rush is not a teleport. Mesmer with 30sec cd utility blink alone has more mobility than the two gs movement skills combined. And when you see rampage you can only run for your life??? What a joke. Really just stop talking, you are embarrassing yourself.

Firstly you're clearly missing the point and secondly you're trying to justify that by claiming OP is low rank. If anyone if embarrassing himself it's you.

@sneakytails.5629 said:Best way to learn a classes weakness is to roll one yourself. You would have a lot less trouble with the mobility once you learn the timing and when to CC or not. Most fights between the same classes by players who main them go on for a lot longer than normal for this reason.

Once you roll some of the other classes you will see that they can stack annoying stuff just like Warrior can. This is a problem with the game itself and not any one class.

Warrior is good at what it does, but beyond that it struggles. Take away its meta weapon (GS) and it really struggles. Ranger is the same way with longbow.

Spellbreaker has been adjusted multiple times with nerfs to sustain and damage, at this point specs like Holosmith and Soulbeast are really close to overtaking it if not already doing so.

The best way to defeat your problems with the class is to roll one or to seriously duel alot until you figure it out.

I have played all classes which is why I know warrior is currently top of the game when it comes to pressuring a node while being outnumbered. Speculating about taking away the GS is beside the point? Anyway, warriors have seen their play in supportive roles, as well as condition damage. Maybe right now they're just supposed to be in this position.

@cryorion.9532 said:Shield Bash was already nerfed by making its animation very slow at the beginning, so for mobility purposes, Shield Bash is pretty bad.

I find these suggested changes having only annoyance character, instead of actual balance character.

You forgot that WvW exists and the mobility of certain classes there is insane. Just because people don't play these builds in PvP doesn't mean they don't exist. I doubt anet will ever split skill ranges between game modes.

If there is mobility that needs nerf, it's thief/ranger/mesmer/engineer's.

You are right about shield bash, and I am also not talking about WvW. Of course you can go full mobility and be much better than warriors. But the point I'm trying to make is about the combination of short burst dmg, sustain, and mobility. In that regard I think mesmers and engineers are up there also. Taking away for example mobility of a thief would be a real problem. Because they are not able to deal burst dmg in a short amount of time while having the sustain. They really need to be able to hop in and out of fights fast because if they stay in it for 5 seconds longer they're dead.

The Greatsword matters because if you run any other weapon set on your Warrior you will see very quickly how dependent Warrior is on this weapon in competitive play. So I would say that it matters a great deal.

There are massive differences in sustain between Core Warrior and Spellbreaker. Berserker is not even in the same zip code as those two. For some reason you keep using the term Warrior like they all have the same levels of sustain, when they clearly do not.

PvP also has its own balancing with weaker versions of the most important Warrior Traits and Skills, further increasing the gap in power between the specs.

Really what you are experiencing here is a spec designed for sustain (Spellbreaker) stacking damage, movement and sustain just like all the other competitive classes stack with their weapon, trait and skill choices. This is why they are actually competitive, because this game (and PvP even more so) forces you to do that.

The solution to a lot of your problems is to stop trying to outplay a specific spec on a node who is designed and optimized to hold the node. There are clearly ways to play around this as many videos out there show the good players doing just that.

Warrior especially Berserker could use some buff, not nerf.
I mean, all due respect, what do you want the warrior to be good at? You take away what little warrior has left and it will be good at nothing.
And let's not forget the warrior lacks proper ranged attack compared to other classes.

@Horan.7013 said:And let's not forget the warrior lacks proper ranged attack compared to other classes.

Yes good idea I don't mind buffing warrio's ranged capabilities it is indeed lacking.

@sneakytails.5629 said:The Greatsword matters because if you run any other weapon set on your Warrior you will see very quickly how dependent Warrior is on this weapon in competitive play. So I would say that it matters a great deal.

Obviously they are not going to take it away, so I don't understand the argument. That other weapons could use a rework to be more viable? Either way on warrior it's difficult to have every weapon see its fair share of play. It's ok some are used more than others.I'm also not the guy who endlessly tries to +1 a sb on a node. Anyway, I understand your reasoning and can agree with it.

@Naevia Mercer.8671 said:Everybody who plays pvp knows Warriors are perfectly capable of entertaining 2 people on a node endlessly. Yes other classes are also capable of doing so, but not while at the same time bringing the amount of burst a warrior does, or the damage mitigation (not yet speaking of the ability to interrupt a heal). One of the most important fortes in this is the warrior's movement ability. Moving in and out of a fight is crucial for the warrior to stay alive and to keep applying enough pressure. Therefore, I would like to suggest a few small balance changes to the warrior's mobility which will keep warrior in this exceptional position, but at least allowing for other classes to come into consideration as well.

I don't get this reason to change Warrior. Classes excel at a certain thing (or many things) because of their toolsets based on their concepts; how does this fact lead you to believe your proposed change is necessary or good? I don't see what problem you are fixing, other than you don't like this particular thing that warrior is capable of doing.