It feels like the elite spec hype is ramping up again, so I'd like to share the kind of theme and playstyle I'd personally like to see the thief get. Because of the theme, I'm more looking forward to a Canthan expansion, not necessarily the next expansion. I'm not really focused on the name, though will be many callbacks to the GW1 assassin. Since Anet has described previous elite specs as a primary/secondary profession mix, this spec would best be described as a Thief/Mesmer combination. It has a bit of a wuxia theme, with flying swords and shadows.

Full disclosure, I drew inspiration from a lot of things: LOTRO's warden, FFXIV's ninja, Wildstar's ESPer (RIP), Vergil from Devil May Cry... thematically a lot from

but wanted a different playstyle from: watch and wait while your shadow does most of the setup. I'm aiming for a quicker combo-style gameplay that mimics the Assassin's chained skills that hopefully also encourages more varied weapon skill use. I hope to distinguish it from Daredevil by giving it some more spellcaster aspects and from Deadeye by adding more area damage and control. As for "sword mage", I hope it has a different feel than the sword weaver, which feels like the mage part is limited to a magically imbued sword and armor. This spec gives the thief more AOE and more options to initiate from and poke at range, but the meat of the damage is still done up close.

New Mechanics:

"...strike at the heart when the enemy least expects it, nowhere and everywhere all at once." - The Guild Wars Factions Manuscripts

Gain access to phantasms and flow. Chain together initiative skills and phantasm skills to build flow, which buffs dual wield skills and grants an empowered state. When phantasms are active, stolen skills become tandem strikes which count as dual wield skills and change depending on your flow.

I decided to shift to initiative/phantasms rather than lead/OH/dual because not every thief weapon has offhand or dual skills (shortbow and...any thief underwater). Also, Lead Attacks is already a thing, I just don't feel it recaptures the playstyle. I want to reward the use of different skills rather than skill spam. At least by tying the chains to the spec's new skills I can ensure varied builds can still play with the new mechanic. Maybe some limitations underwater, but that's common in existing specs and there can be further options available in traits.

The Guild War's Assassin lore emphasizes balance, so possible flavor names for initiative/phantasm could be: Internal/External, Body/Spirit, Hand/Mind, Earth/Heaven, Light/Dark, Steel/Shadow, etc. Flow could be represented in the UI as a bar separated into two halves that meet in the middle of an icon. When an initiative skill is used, half the bar fills, and when a phantasm skill is used, the other half fills. To emphasize the feeling of combos and incentivize deliberate skill use, each skill use has a short window of use (1 or 2 secs) and the bars should decay to reflect this. Flow cannot be stored and using the same type of skill twice in a row breaks the chain. If both parts of the chain are successful, the icon in the middle lights up, indicating the buff can be used. The "empowered state" I added because personally I think the rotation could use a little breathing room. Just a couple seconds of damage (attack speed?) buff that for most weapons will benefit the autoattack the most, pistol/pistol probably being the exception.

Tandem strikes (Formations? Katas? Ways?) are available when you use Steal when a phantasm is active and act as alternative enders for flow chains. (Stealing without a phantasm gives regular stolen skills as usual) Imagine: You have a phantasm on the field because the chain requires one, you steal to an enemy unlocking this skill, your phantasm shadowsteps to you and together you strike the enemy from both sides! I like them as F2's because it ties them to Steal's cooldown, which I think makes the spec less spammy and gives them a meaningful place, like as an opener. Since it's more fun to have options, in a fashion similar to LOTRO's Warden and FFXIV's Ninja, different chains create different tandem skills. I didn't want to go too crazy with them since our combat is faster paced, no GCD, more movement and stuff to watch, so right now just three options:

• [ I > P > D ]or [ P > I > D ]The basic and first available tandem strike is a single target attack, maybe with evade frames. I know some people want Rev's sword 3, personally I think the animation could be better.

• [ ...P > I > P > D ]
  Two phantasms on the field join you, encircling an area and casting an area of effect in front of you, doing damage over time, plus maybe immobilize?

• [ ...I > P > I > D ]
  Absorb your phantasm, gaining some kind of buff, could be offensive and/or defensive.

This adds some consequence because If you accidentally add an extra skill trying to do the first F2, there's no way to get it back, you have to wait for the chain to time out or intentionally break it. Or you can go into one of the other F2's. I added the ellipsis because I like the idea of possible mind games; if you have the initiative/phantasms available, you can keep alternating between the two, keeping your chain alive and your opponent guessing.

Off-Hand Sword

Skill 4: Create a wave of energy with your sword (a projectile) to stun an enemy. If successful, flips to a sequence skill that does additional damage and creates a phantasm. Completely ranged skill, both parts each cost moderate initiative, like 4 or 5. So far, the only skill that is both an initiative and phantasm skill but it requires a preceding attack anyways. The second part would probably count as an [ ...I > P... ] combo.

Skill 5: Cut in a spinning motion, creating a dome of razor wind(shadows?) around you, persisting for a couple seconds, doing damage and destroying projectiles. Should have a high initiative cost, like 5 or 6.

Sword MH Dual: Channeled multi-strike hit similar to 100 blades but not as strong because it's buffable and spammable otherwise. Ideally, in the empowered state after a flow, buffed auto chains should be a better option than the unbuffed dual attacks. Could be interesting to have these attacks do damage in a lane of effect with waves of energy.

Dagger MH Dual: & Pistol MH Dual: Uhhh... gotta admit I was focused on the dual swords thing. Ideas? Could also be multi-strikes but maybe with differing width/length of the lane of effect: sword/x is wide & short-ranged, pistol/x is narrow & long-ranged, dagger/x is in-between.

Something I've noticed with existing specs is that the unique mechanics are pretty independent from the unique slot skills, which won't be the case here if the only phantasms come from heal/utility/elite skills. The extra on OH sword probably isn't enough but phantasms could be added to stealth skills, which every weapon has. If that's too close to Deadeye, which also modified stealth skills, maybe they could be added to combo finishers, which the devs have been playing with lately. Both cases require their own setup/cost, so it feels alright. It doesn't really put a focus on stealth because you still have to complete the chain while revealed. But what do you think? Necessary at all?

Phantasms

Similar to Mesmer phantasm skills in that most require a target even if the summoned phantasm is doing an AOE. The big difference is that they don't become clones when the phantasm's attack ends, I feel that would step on Mesmers' shoes a little too much. They might do some damage at range for you, but the point is to reward your timing by using them in combo chains, not to have them standing around jeering at your enemies. These skills will also have a way to lower their cooldowns, since they're so important to how the class plays and will be used often.

Heal Slot: Create a wall of shadow blades, block attacks and fire a shadow blade at your attacker and creating a phantasm. Channeled and admittedly does a lot, so the heal probably shouldn't be too strong, or have a long duration. More of an offensive option. Could heal/create a blade in time-gated pulses, meaning you could cut the heal short to move ahead with a combo or take the full heal but probably break your combo chain.

Slot Skill 1: Fire a blade of shadow at your target, creating a phantasm. Ammo skill with 3 charges and a shorter cooldown. Not super exciting but offers a steady stream of phantasms for combo use. Or you can burst fire them all.

Slot Skill 2: I haven't named a lot of attacks in this spec because it's not so important at this stage, but this should probably be called Dark Prison. A phantasm leaps toward your target and creates an area of effect, slowing enemies and absorbing conditions from allies. At the end of duration, knocks enemies down. (Would up be too annoying?) Similar motion to Revenant hammer 3, maybe also an evade.

Slot Skill 3: You and a phantasm dash through your enemy, damaging everything in your path. A movement skill that does damage in a line, similar to Warrior GS 3 and Mesmer GS 4, but targeted. Should stop you from going too far, probably placing you at your target's back. For style points, your and your phantasm's path should cross in an X-shape.

Slot Skill 4: Yeah I'm pretty wiped at this point. Not sure what to put here. PVP guys need anything? Maybe something defensive since the combo chains mean you can't prep your burst hidden in stealth.

Elite Skill: Sends three large shadow blades into the sky and brings them crashing down into an area, impaling all your foes. For style points, from above the blades should form the icon of the Guild Wars Assassin. When striking, each blade creates its own phantasm, a total of three. Since this skill is casted, not channeled, I haven't decided if I'd like it to be more casual friendly, basically a longer duration phantasm chain, or more skill rewarding. It'd be interesting if the three phantasms counted separately, possibly breaking your flow unless you had good enough timing to sneak dual skills between and after each strike.

Traits

Minor Proficiency: Off-hand swordMinor Adept: Description of the class mechanic, phantasms, flow, tandem strikesMinor Master: Completing a flow chain lowers cooldowns of phantasm skillsMinor Grandmaster: Completing a flow chain grants an empowered state... Haven't decided if boons are enough or it needs a unique buff.

Only have a few ideas for traits.

• Deadly Haste: Hitting disabled or movement impaired foes grants quickness. Helps with autos and I think every thief weapon has way to apply these. I like more variety in skill use.
• Assault Enchantments: Tandem Strikes remove boons.
• Something to help two-handed weapons lower the cooldown of steal so they can use tandem strikes to finish chains. Maybe breaking a chain? Maybe I should scrap infinite chains and add an end cap...
• Black Spider Strike: Phantasms apply conditions.
• Something to give a more support-y aspect to tandem strikes.
• ???

So yeah, missing a bit, but let me know what you all think! I understand that a lot of this is personal taste but I'd like to hear your thoughts anyways.

text is kinda hard to read for some reason but i'm gonna go with no

THIEF IS NOT MAGICIAN!!!! I dont really know how much longer will i have to repeat it to everyone

There is high probability next elite will be condi oriented = poison tornment bleeding etc. We already got two power elites so...

Shadow arts are not and never will be offensive utility they are there to compensate for the lack of actual hiding spots in real maps + lurking effect.

No. 10/10 No please stop a ng Thief shadow mage bull crap. IT IS TIME TO STOP

Thanks for the responses.

Derd.6413: It did become a wall of text if that's what you mean. I'm not really familiar with this forum's formatting, plus I started rambling a bit. But I guess you also don't like the general concept?

Jack Redline.5379: I think the "not magician" thing gets a bit muddy because lorewise, I think it's explained that all the Tyrian classes use magic in a way. You don't have to look any further than Deadeye's cantrips to see " orb of shadow magic," or "burst of shadow magic". But if I could clarify something, the skills in my suggestion aren't shadow arts, since we have those already, they're phantasms which could be interpreted as being so fast, it's like they're in multiple places at once. Beyond that, I understand. There are definitely more offensive spells here than your usual rogue class, and swordmages are a personal "rule of cool" thing. It's easier for me to imagine AOE with magic is all.

I'd prefer if an elite spec could offer ways to play as condi or power, but I guess Berserker sets a precedent in which case you're right, we're over-due for a condi spec. I'm not necessarily thinking about the next spec though, just a Canthan spec, and I don't think we're going to Cantha next. I was more interested in thinking about ways GW's combo chaining could work with GW2's weapon system.

@"hatsamu.4327" said:Thanks for the responses.

Derd.6413: It did become a wall of text if that's what you mean. I'm not really familiar with this forum's formatting, plus I started rambling a bit. But I guess you also don't like the general concept?

less the wall of text and more the rambeling, makes it drag on a bit.

but from what i've read it was a "make class X more like class Y" spec which is never good

@derd.6413 said:

@"hatsamu.4327" said:Thanks for the responses.

Derd.6413: It did become a wall of text if that's what you mean. I'm not really familiar with this forum's formatting, plus I started rambling a bit. But I guess you also don't like the general concept?

Thanks for the input. Can't seem to edit right now, but I'll keep that in mind.

I did try to make it feel different by adding the dynamic combinations mechanic, but I can see that it does lean much closer to Mesmer than Spellbreaker did, even though Spellbreaker was officially described as a Warrior mixed with a Mesmer.

There are other existing elite specs that I feel also lean pretty close, but this spec could probably be made more interesting.

@hatsamu.4327 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@hatsamu.4327 said:Thanks for the responses.

Derd.6413: It did become a wall of text if that's what you mean. I'm not really familiar with this forum's formatting, plus I started rambling a bit. But I guess you also don't like the general concept?

i'm not familiar with all classes but the general vibe i get from especs is that they never start out with "let's make class X more like class Y" and more "let's make class X do this cool thing, what mechanics from other classes can we use to make it happen/better?"

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

1. THIEF IS NOT MAGICIAN!!!! I dont really know how much longer will i have to repeat it to everyone

To put it bluntly: Yes, they are. There are a lot of things in the thief's skillset that are hard to explain without magic. All that teleportation, for a start, is not something you do without some supernatural capabilities, and thief/assassin always had a bit of a 'dabbles in the mesmer skillset' feel to it. Thief is more along the lines of a D&D paladin or ranger in that the magic supports their skill at martial weapons rather than being their main defining element, and depending on your build you can downplay the magic element, but it is definitely there.

Elite specialisations that expand on this aspect are entirely reasonable.

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

1. THIEF IS NOT MAGICIAN!!!! I dont really know how much longer will i have to repeat it to everyone

i have explained it above why it is the way it is. it is game mechanics that are supposed to substitute for the lack of possibilities in game. Thief could just run around and hide in bushes but that would make it extremely hard to play so they speeded it up by shadowsteping steal stealth ETC as i said i dunno three times above and all of you ignored it. i am not going to argue about this further anyone who wants to believe Thief is magician can do it i dont give a kitten anymore. i know that theif will never become shadow mage or what was that thing this op suggested and you will be disapointed when you will figure out it wont so have a nice day

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

1. THIEF IS NOT MAGICIAN!!!! I dont really know how much longer will i have to repeat it to everyone

That sounds like headcanon. "Gameplay takes shortcuts" might be a valid argument if thief skills didn't directly talk about shadow magic.It's fine if you don't like the shadow magic themes on thief but don't make it out to be some kind of "fact" when it isn't.

@Yannir.4132 said:

Only two things that mentione shadow magic are Shadow gust and Shadow flare and both those are connected to Deadeye which yes has a shadow magic in his name.those are together three only facts you have that actually point out that Deadeye is using shadow magic.And surpriseThief doesntDaredevil doesnt.And as i said milion times and i can see i will say it milion times more Deadeye is not a thief. It is subclass of its own. We dont relate to them and the have thing to do with us. so if you ve wanted to have shadow mage congratz you have one. It is deadeye. Not a thief. A deadeye that is your shadow mage. Go have fun with it. Leave us Thieves alone.

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

@Yannir.4132 said:

Nevermind. I see you only argument based on your emotions. Headcanon. Carry on.

@Yannir.4132 said:Nevermind. I see you only argument based on your emotions. Headcanon. Carry on.

My emotions? xD hahaahahha okay. bye xD

@"hatsamu.4327"

Right, so you're off to an interesting start here. I do like the concept of harkening back to old GW1 playstyles, but I feel like you've got a lot of things riding on the same horse here and it's a bit difficult to find a good direction reading this. You have both Phantasms, a new meter AND a new subset of Skills (Empowered skills) thrown together all at once, that's a lot of factors to take into consideration when trying to balance this Spec.

I'd suggest simplifying the mechanics. F1 summons a "Phantasm" (call it a Shadow, or a Doppelganger, to differentiate it from Mesmer a bit), whenever you strike with a Weapon Skill with an Initiative Cost, your Phantasm follows up with a specific Chain Skill and if this Phantasmal Chain Skill hits your target, your first Weapon Skill flips over to a Chain Finisher skill of sorts (Just as an example).

You seemed a bit burned out when you got down to Traits as well, leaving them relatively half-finished. Now, Traits are -The- most important parts of any ESpec (Contrary to the belief that the new mechanic is the most pivotal one. Mechanics changes playstyles, but Traits determine viability and usefulness) so definitely revisit those when imagination strikes again. It helps to consider the following questions: "What do I want this ESpec to excell at? How do I go about making it excell in these areas? How many different ways can I make it excell in these areas, or should I focus on 3 different areas?"

Shameless self-promotion aside, I created the Drifter Espec concept sometime back. It was designed as a Peeler primarily, which requires qualities such as good CC, Team Support, Personal Sustain and high Mobility among other things. As such, I designed its traitlines around the themes of Condition Damage and CC/Team Support/Mobility and Sustain respectively for Upper/Middle/Lower. Try and consider what role and subrole you're looking to add or improve for this concept, then break it down to its core components. Once you have a set direction, it'll become much easier to design effects and traits based around that direction, and even eventually create Synergy between existing traits and new ones.

@TheSwede.9512 said:@"hatsamu.4327"

Right, so you're off to an interesting start here. I do like the concept of harkening back to old GW1 playstyles, but I feel like you've got a lot of things riding on the same horse here and it's a bit difficult to find a good direction reading this. You have both Phantasms, a new meter AND a new subset of Skills (Empowered skills) thrown together all at once, that's a lot of factors to take into consideration when trying to balance this Spec.

I'd suggest simplifying the mechanics. F1 summons a "Phantasm" (call it a Shadow, or a Doppelganger, to differentiate it from Mesmer a bit), whenever you strike with a Weapon Skill with an Initiative Cost, your Phantasm follows up with a specific Chain Skill and if this Phantasmal Chain Skill hits your target, your first Weapon Skill flips over to a Chain Finisher skill of sorts (Just as an example).

You seemed a bit burned out when you got down to Traits as well, leaving them relatively half-finished. Now, Traits are -The- most important parts of any ESpec (Contrary to the belief that the new mechanic is the most pivotal one. Mechanics changes playstyles, but Traits determine viability and usefulness) so definitely revisit those when imagination strikes again. It helps to consider the following questions: "What do I want this ESpec to excell at? How do I go about making it excell in these areas? How many different ways can I make it excell in these areas, or should I focus on 3 different areas?"

Shameless self-promotion aside, I created the Drifter Espec concept sometime back. It was designed as a Peeler primarily, which requires qualities such as good CC, Team Support, Personal Sustain and high Mobility among other things. As such, I designed its traitlines around the themes of Condition Damage and CC/Team Support/Mobility and Sustain respectively for Upper/Middle/Lower. Try and consider what role and subrole you're looking to add or improve for this concept, then break it down to its core components. Once you have a set direction, it'll become much easier to design effects and traits based around that direction, and even eventually create Synergy between existing traits and new ones.

Thanks, I think you're correct. I did start to get the feeling that I was adding too much when I realized I also needed to add phantasms to core weapons to make the spec work. Your suggestion of moving the phantasm to F1 is great, it allows the utility skills to be a different type which solves the problem of the mechanic being tied to the utilities, and having access to so many phantasms was probably part of why it felt too close to Mesmer.

Good advice about the traits, too. I admit I was thinking about the spec's theme first, rather than how the spec would fit into the game. I was going for a spec with more AOE options since we got the single-target focused spec last time. Other elite spec suggestions would be much better than mine for tank or support roles (including your Drifter, cool stuff!), so I guess an overall aggressive playstyle would fit the most, which is what the Thief does best but wouldn't be giving us anything new... But I can imagine some traitlines loosely based around PVE/PVP/WVW, like a line that focuses on self-buffs/damage (for power and condi), a line for CC/boon-hate, and a defensive line.

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

1. THIEF IS NOT MAGICIAN!!!! I dont really know how much longer will i have to repeat it to everyone

It was a plot point back in the Factions background that shadowstepping was genuine, albeit short-range, teleportation rather than simply being a game mechanic.

After reading the title, I can with confidence say...

Nope. Don't want it.