Hp / def class variation with out power / precision — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Hp / def class variation with out power / precision

Right now gw2 has def class variation hp / def making some classes much more glassly the other but there is no variation on power / precision the main dmg effect.

I suggest you do away with hp / def class variation and make it a pure build effect OR you add variation to power / precision (lowest hp / def gives you highest base power / precision).
This 1/2 balances they have now is not working and often lets high def classes "cheat" by letting them build more dmg aimed.

This was not a problem with the core classes as they where balances with the hp / def and dmg effect in mind but eliet spec have throw this comply out of wack where you have super glassly classes needing to go into melee ranged and doing minimal dmg at high risk and made super tankly classes able to do high dmg from long ranged doing max dmg at minimal risk. Its only going to get worst as they add in more elite spec.

See ELE forms and you will get my views.

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Comments

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I agree with your reasoning and observation, but not your solution.

    This wouldn't even the playingfield at all, it would heavily favor the glasscannons. Vitality, base that is, is based around the amount of hp/second the profession can achieve. Toughness is simply there to indicate what playstyle suits the profession best, as it's the minor factor.

    If we then give everyone say - 20k health - then som professions would be able to regenerate that in 5 seconds while others would barely be able to get 1k back. Furthermore then toughness becomes a direct advantage/disadvantage, instead of being offset by vitality.

    Boons and their accessibility were also used to determine health pools back at the start, so I agree with you the expansions mess that up. We already agree the core game was more balanced - the easier and more logical solution would be to take another look at boons, their durations, accessability and effect.

  • Scud.5067Scud.5067 Member ✭✭✭

    Interesting.

    Question: Do armour types actually do anything? For example, does heavy armour protect better than light?

  • @Scud.5067 said:
    Interesting.

    Question: Do armour types actually do anything? For example, does heavy armour protect better than light?

    To a certain extent, yes. However, a light profession with two or three (?) pieces of Knight's armor gives enough toughness to equalize the defense rating between light and heavy.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Diak Atoli.2085 said:

    @Scud.5067 said:
    Interesting.

    Question: Do armour types actually do anything? For example, does heavy armour protect better than light?

    To a certain extent, yes. However, a light profession with two or three (?) pieces of Knight's armor gives enough toughness to equalize the defense rating between light and heavy.

    But how much power and crit dmg do you give up for that? That the problem your asking the glass classes to give up dmg to stay alive but the tankly classes to give up nothing to do more dmg.

    Hp is much more important then armor most of the time is there an vit version of knights that lets the low hp classes be on the high level of hp tanklyness? There too many combos missing to make the current system work. And most of them are missing because it makes the tankly dmg classes just that much more broken.

    Its a real mess of balances and even worst as more it added in and the old is forgotten.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • IndigoSundown.5419IndigoSundown.5419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If ANet were to adopt a solution to the presented problem, expect that there would be additional changes to professions as a result. At the moment, low base health is balanced by: Thief/stealth, evasion and high mobility; Elementalist/damage plus healing plus defensive skills; and Guardian/lots of defensive buffs and healing.

    Also, as of right now, the difference between heavy and light armor is small. Glass versions of scholar classes (light) have 967 Defense with their full Ascended whereas soldiers (heavy) have 1271. That's a difference of 304, meaning that a glass scholar's Armor core would be 1967 (967 Defense plus 1000 Toughness) and the glass soldier would have 2271 (1271 + 1000). If each receives a hit which does 10,000,000 base damage, then they would take:

    Scholar: 10,000,000/1967 = 5,084
    Soldier: 10,000,000/2271 = 4,403

    That's a difference of 681 health, and that's a fairly substantial hit, usually requiring either another player, a champion/legendary mob or an outlier in other mob classifications. That difference (the soldier is taking a bit more than 86% of the damage the scholar takes) is easily compensated for by a variety of differences between professions that have more to do with sustain or active defense than stats.

    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- Santayana

  • @Jski.6180 said:

    @Diak Atoli.2085 said:

    @Scud.5067 said:
    Interesting.

    Question: Do armour types actually do anything? For example, does heavy armour protect better than light?

    To a certain extent, yes. However, a light profession with two or three (?) pieces of Knight's armor gives enough toughness to equalize the defense rating between light and heavy.

    But how much power and crit dmg do you give up for that? That the problem your asking the glass classes to give up dmg to stay alive but the tankly classes to give up nothing to do more dmg.

    Hp is much more important then armor most of the time is there an vit version of knights that lets the low hp classes be on the high level of hp tanklyness? There too many combos missing to make the current system work. And most of them are missing because it makes the tankly dmg classes just that much more broken.

    Its a real mess of balances and even worst as more it added in and the old is forgotten.

    I wasn't asking anyone to do anything. I merely answered the question.

    For your question: Yes. There are two vitality sets similar to Knight's gear, Marauder's and Cavalier's. Depending on your profession's ability to increase critical chance outside of precision bonuses, one may be better than the other.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:
    If ANet were to adopt a solution to the presented problem, expect that there would be additional changes to professions as a result. At the moment, low base health is balanced by: Thief/stealth, evasion and high mobility; Elementalist/damage plus healing plus defensive skills; and Guardian/lots of defensive buffs and healing.

    Also, as of right now, the difference between heavy and light armor is small. Glass versions of scholar classes (light) have 967 Defense with their full Ascended whereas soldiers (heavy) have 1271. That's a difference of 304, meaning that a glass scholar's Armor core would be 1967 (967 Defense plus 1000 Toughness) and the glass soldier would have 2271 (1271 + 1000). If each receives a hit which does 10,000,000 base damage, then they would take:

    Scholar: 10,000,000/1967 = 5,084
    Soldier: 10,000,000/2271 = 4,403

    That's a difference of 681 health, and that's a fairly substantial hit, usually requiring either another player, a champion/legendary mob or an outlier in other mob classifications. That difference (the soldier is taking a bit more than 86% of the damage the scholar takes) is easily compensated for by a variety of differences between professions that have more to do with sustain or active defense than stats.

    For armor that true but health it is not classes have very different level of base hp with in the scholar and soldiers more so then just the armor.
    As for armor you give up a lot of power just to make up for the fact your not a soldier where the soldier can push dmg all the more. All though vit is way more important then armor in this game. High hp classes get to get free dmg builds where low hp classes often MUST run vit at some level or they will kill them self on passive reticulation or a random condi on hit.

    (not a attk at you indigo or realty any one just an added point)

    The thing is class are not there core any more and the old balancing just dose not work. We have classe with high hp and def who are doing ranged dmg on par with classes of low hp / def. We have classes who must be in melee to have an effect who have the lowest hp / def in the game. We have classes who have high ish hp who often have so many def skills that its hard to tell when you can even land hits. Every thing has high evasion mobility healing and def skill because of there elite spec. something that dose not effect there hp and def at all.

    This game is not balanced at all and the way things have been updated has do nothing to help there are real problems that have not been updated from the start of the game that do not fit the current game at all. I needs to be fixed or we simply have classes better then others and classes that are a requirement to have to play the game.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:
    If ANet were to adopt a solution to the presented problem, expect that there would be additional changes to professions as a result. At the moment, low base health is balanced by: Thief/stealth, evasion and high mobility; Elementalist/damage plus healing plus defensive skills; and Guardian/lots of defensive buffs and healing.

    Also, as of right now, the difference between heavy and light armor is small. Glass versions of scholar classes (light) have 967 Defense with their full Ascended whereas soldiers (heavy) have 1271. That's a difference of 304, meaning that a glass scholar's Armor core would be 1967 (967 Defense plus 1000 Toughness) and the glass soldier would have 2271 (1271 + 1000). If each receives a hit which does 10,000,000 base damage, then they would take:

    Scholar: 10,000,000/1967 = 5,084
    Soldier: 10,000,000/2271 = 4,403

    That's a difference of 681 health, and that's a fairly substantial hit, usually requiring either another player, a champion/legendary mob or an outlier in other mob classifications. That difference (the soldier is taking a bit more than 86% of the damage the scholar takes) is easily compensated for by a variety of differences between professions that have more to do with sustain or active defense than stats.

    For armor that true but health it is not classes have very different level of base hp with in the scholar and soldiers more so then just the armor.
    As for armor you give up a lot of power just to make up for the fact your not a soldier where the soldier can push dmg all the more. All though vit is way more important then armor in this game. High hp classes get to get free dmg builds where low hp classes often MUST run vit at some level or they will kill them self on passive reticulation or a random condi on hit.

    (not a attk at you indigo or realty any one just an added point)

    The thing is class are not there core any more and the old balancing just dose not work. We have classe with high hp and def who are doing ranged dmg on par with classes of low hp / def. We have classes who must be in melee to have an effect who have the lowest hp / def in the game. We have classes who have high ish hp who often have so many def skills that its hard to tell when you can even land hits. Every thing has high evasion mobility healing and def skill because of there elite spec. something that dose not effect there hp and def at all.

    This game is not balanced at all and the way things have been updated has do nothing to help there are real problems that have not been updated from the start of the game that do not fit the current game at all. I needs to be fixed or we simply have classes better then others and classes that are a requirement to have to play the game.

    It's always been like this, even in the core zerker meta the warrior would f.ex have a favourable matchup against a thief, the same way a necro would have a weakness towards rangers. The expansions sought to bridge those gaps, this is why they introduced marauder gear aswell to allow hp to matter less and create fairer fights.

    But I agree, in hindsight this just created more issues where we went from vit+defence being the scale (that everyone could take advantage of) to mobility and boon uptime deciding who was most likely to win, which not all professions have equal access to.

    This doesn't mean you just have to work harder to win - there is no way for you to bridge that gap except roll specific professions.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2018

    @Jski.6180 said:
    As for armor you give up a lot of power just to make up for the fact your not a soldier where the soldier can push dmg all the more. All though vit is way more important then armor in this game. High hp classes get to get free dmg builds where low hp classes often MUST run vit at some level or they will kill them self on passive reticulation or a random condi on hit.

    Which game mode are we talking about?
    Spvp, WvW or PvE?

    Can you prove this?

    Last I checked classes in high end PvE run the exact same Stat combinations across all 3 weight classes optimizing for damage or support.

    The same applies to WvW and builds there.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Or better yet, give those with low health/armor better ways to defend themselves with skills and abilities. Thieves (low health, medium armor) got stealth and a billion evades, so they don't really need more armor or health to survive. Guardians (low health) have loads of blocks, invulnerability skills and healing skills to stay alive. Mesmers (moderate health, light armor) have lots of evades, blocks and of course their clones to defend themselves. I don't think Thieves, Guardians and Mesmers need any kind of increased passive stats at all.

    I think the only profession that is really badly designed in that regard is Elementalist. Lowest health, lowest armor and absolutely nothing to compensate for it. No stealth, not enough blocks/evades, no good healing when you are focused (Elementalist can heal very well, but not burst heal), and even that healing is garbage if you don't spec for it.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Which game mode are we talking about?

    I'd say the entire opening post fits Elementalists perfectly in PVP. They don't have clones, stealth, burst healing, passive defense or kiting capabilities, if you invest heavily you might get passive defense and some healing, but that means you do no damage anymore. Meanwhile, even the highest dps Thieves have evades or stealth, Mesmers have distortion and lots of clones to hide, Guardians blocks and heals that are part of the profession without any investment needed.

  • Khisanth.2948Khisanth.2948 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Or better yet, give those with low health/armor better ways to defend themselves with skills and abilities. Thieves (low health, medium armor) got stealth and a billion evades, so they don't really need more armor or health to survive. Guardians (low health) have loads of blocks, invulnerability skills and healing skills to stay alive. Mesmers (moderate health, light armor) have lots of evades, blocks and of course their clones to defend themselves. I don't think Thieves, Guardians and Mesmers need any kind of increased passive stats at all.

    I think the only profession that is really badly designed in that regard is Elementalist. Lowest health, lowest armor and absolutely nothing to compensate for it. No stealth, not enough blocks/evades, no good healing when you are focused (Elementalist can heal very well, but not burst heal), and even that healing is garbage if you don't spec for it.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Which game mode are we talking about?

    I'd say the entire opening post fits Elementalists perfectly in PVP. They don't have clones, stealth, burst healing, passive defense or kiting capabilities, if you invest heavily you might get passive defense and some healing, but that means you do no damage anymore. Meanwhile, even the highest dps Thieves have evades or stealth, Mesmers have distortion and lots of clones to hide, Guardians blocks and heals that are part of the profession without any investment needed.

    Does it? I guess you've never encountered any weavers in PvP ...

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    As for armor you give up a lot of power just to make up for the fact your not a soldier where the soldier can push dmg all the more. All though vit is way more important then armor in this game. High hp classes get to get free dmg builds where low hp classes often MUST run vit at some level or they will kill them self on passive reticulation or a random condi on hit.

    Which game mode are we talking about?
    Spvp, WvW or PvE?

    Can you prove this?

    Last I checked classes in high end PvE run the exact same Stat combinations across all 3 weight classes optimizing for damage or support.

    The same applies to WvW and builds there.

    Less armor targets and hp targets to hit for higher classes lets them build more crit dmg or condi dmg. There is a very much set cap to these dmg type in this game and pure power is not a true viable dmg type sadly. There was talk a long time ago with main crit dmg gear set but it never came out i bet it was because it would push the high hp / def classes dmg that much higher then the lower hp / def classes who because they are the wrong class must build def to do dmg.

    The prove is that we have a lot of passive dmg effects in gw2 retaliation and on hit condis eat dps classes alive and its only hp that stops this.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2018

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    As for armor you give up a lot of power just to make up for the fact your not a soldier where the soldier can push dmg all the more. All though vit is way more important then armor in this game. High hp classes get to get free dmg builds where low hp classes often MUST run vit at some level or they will kill them self on passive reticulation or a random condi on hit.

    Which game mode are we talking about?
    Spvp, WvW or PvE?

    Can you prove this?

    Last I checked classes in high end PvE run the exact same Stat combinations across all 3 weight classes optimizing for damage or support.

    The same applies to WvW and builds there.

    Less armor targets and hp targets to hit for higher classes lets them build more crit dmg or condi dmg. There is a very much set cap to these dmg type in this game and pure power is not a true viable dmg type sadly. There was talk a long time ago with main crit dmg gear set but it never came out i bet it was because it would push the high hp / def classes dmg that much higher then the lower hp / def classes who because they are the wrong class must build def to do dmg.

    The prove is that we have a lot of passive dmg effects in gw2 retaliation and on hit condis eat dps classes alive and its only hp that stops this.

    Please show specific builds or examples, again I don't see what you are explaining in endgame builds.

    I understand what you are trying to say, I just don't agree that this is an issue in actual builds and game play. If you check any endgame build for pve, all condi builds build Viper, all power builds build berserker (with some assassin gear depending on class). This is not affected by armor weight. The same applies to WvW where the sets differ to usually incorporate as much toughness as possible depending on the range you play (frontline, mid- or backline).

    You are talking pure theory which is not actually true in game (due to multiple reasons which you did not get into like the majority of survival depending on active defenses).

    I'm asking for specific examples where a light armor class will specifically build inferior gear into their build.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    As for armor you give up a lot of power just to make up for the fact your not a soldier where the soldier can push dmg all the more. All though vit is way more important then armor in this game. High hp classes get to get free dmg builds where low hp classes often MUST run vit at some level or they will kill them self on passive reticulation or a random condi on hit.

    Which game mode are we talking about?
    Spvp, WvW or PvE?

    Can you prove this?

    Last I checked classes in high end PvE run the exact same Stat combinations across all 3 weight classes optimizing for damage or support.

    The same applies to WvW and builds there.

    Less armor targets and hp targets to hit for higher classes lets them build more crit dmg or condi dmg. There is a very much set cap to these dmg type in this game and pure power is not a true viable dmg type sadly. There was talk a long time ago with main crit dmg gear set but it never came out i bet it was because it would push the high hp / def classes dmg that much higher then the lower hp / def classes who because they are the wrong class must build def to do dmg.

    The prove is that we have a lot of passive dmg effects in gw2 retaliation and on hit condis eat dps classes alive and its only hp that stops this.

    Please show specific builds or examples, again I don't see what you are explaining in endgame builds.

    I understand what you are trying to say, I just don't agree that this is an issue in actual builds and game play. If you check any endgame build for pve, all condi builds build Viper, all power builds build berserker (with some assassin gear depending on class). This is not affected by armor weight. The same applies to WvW where the sets differ to usually incorporate as much toughness as possible depending on the range you play (frontline, mid- or backline).

    You are talking pure theory which is not actually true in game.

    I'm asking for specific examples where a light armor class will specifically build inferior gear into their build.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    As for armor you give up a lot of power just to make up for the fact your not a soldier where the soldier can push dmg all the more. All though vit is way more important then armor in this game. High hp classes get to get free dmg builds where low hp classes often MUST run vit at some level or they will kill them self on passive reticulation or a random condi on hit.

    Which game mode are we talking about?
    Spvp, WvW or PvE?

    Can you prove this?

    Last I checked classes in high end PvE run the exact same Stat combinations across all 3 weight classes optimizing for damage or support.

    The same applies to WvW and builds there.

    Less armor targets and hp targets to hit for higher classes lets them build more crit dmg or condi dmg. There is a very much set cap to these dmg type in this game and pure power is not a true viable dmg type sadly. There was talk a long time ago with main crit dmg gear set but it never came out i bet it was because it would push the high hp / def classes dmg that much higher then the lower hp / def classes who because they are the wrong class must build def to do dmg.

    The prove is that we have a lot of passive dmg effects in gw2 retaliation and on hit condis eat dps classes alive and its only hp that stops this.

    Please show specific builds or examples, again I don't see what you are explaining in endgame builds.

    I understand what you are trying to say, I just don't agree that this is an issue in actual builds and game play. If you check any endgame build for pve, all condi builds build Viper, all power builds build berserker (with some assassin gear depending on class). This is not affected by armor weight. The same applies to WvW where the sets differ to usually incorporate as much toughness as possible depending on the range you play (frontline, mid- or backline).

    You are talking pure theory which is not actually true in game.

    I'm asking for specific examples where a light armor class will specifically build inferior gear into their build.

    Your viper build what class? As 2 of the 3 light armor classes have high to mid hp i would not call them glassy that the problem and your unable to see the problem other classes that you may not be playing because your set up works well for you.

    Something underline of a problem with GW2 community it is the nice community but more then often if there build and set up for the class they like is good every thing else is ok in the game with out any though to classes who are at a big disavaged. Its selfishnessism and if its showing it self in a video game that is know for a nice community there not much hope any where else.

    And you know well and every one else on the forms what i am talking about but no one can say it with out these ideals and though getting thown into the shadow realm of these forms.

    Also these are general forms lets keep it that way. Its a question of hp / def having variation but nothing else and how in time elite spec. are braking down this type of balancing. Having mid to high def / hp classes with strong ranged dmg is broken. Having low def/hp classes to be melee is broken as they cant pull if off in any real combat.

    This is not just a question of armor types this is a question of hp types as hp is way more important.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2018

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    As for armor you give up a lot of power just to make up for the fact your not a soldier where the soldier can push dmg all the more. All though vit is way more important then armor in this game. High hp classes get to get free dmg builds where low hp classes often MUST run vit at some level or they will kill them self on passive reticulation or a random condi on hit.

    Which game mode are we talking about?
    Spvp, WvW or PvE?

    Can you prove this?

    Last I checked classes in high end PvE run the exact same Stat combinations across all 3 weight classes optimizing for damage or support.

    The same applies to WvW and builds there.

    Less armor targets and hp targets to hit for higher classes lets them build more crit dmg or condi dmg. There is a very much set cap to these dmg type in this game and pure power is not a true viable dmg type sadly. There was talk a long time ago with main crit dmg gear set but it never came out i bet it was because it would push the high hp / def classes dmg that much higher then the lower hp / def classes who because they are the wrong class must build def to do dmg.

    The prove is that we have a lot of passive dmg effects in gw2 retaliation and on hit condis eat dps classes alive and its only hp that stops this.

    Please show specific builds or examples, again I don't see what you are explaining in endgame builds.

    I understand what you are trying to say, I just don't agree that this is an issue in actual builds and game play. If you check any endgame build for pve, all condi builds build Viper, all power builds build berserker (with some assassin gear depending on class). This is not affected by armor weight. The same applies to WvW where the sets differ to usually incorporate as much toughness as possible depending on the range you play (frontline, mid- or backline).

    You are talking pure theory which is not actually true in game.

    I'm asking for specific examples where a light armor class will specifically build inferior gear into their build.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    As for armor you give up a lot of power just to make up for the fact your not a soldier where the soldier can push dmg all the more. All though vit is way more important then armor in this game. High hp classes get to get free dmg builds where low hp classes often MUST run vit at some level or they will kill them self on passive reticulation or a random condi on hit.

    Which game mode are we talking about?
    Spvp, WvW or PvE?

    Can you prove this?

    Last I checked classes in high end PvE run the exact same Stat combinations across all 3 weight classes optimizing for damage or support.

    The same applies to WvW and builds there.

    Less armor targets and hp targets to hit for higher classes lets them build more crit dmg or condi dmg. There is a very much set cap to these dmg type in this game and pure power is not a true viable dmg type sadly. There was talk a long time ago with main crit dmg gear set but it never came out i bet it was because it would push the high hp / def classes dmg that much higher then the lower hp / def classes who because they are the wrong class must build def to do dmg.

    The prove is that we have a lot of passive dmg effects in gw2 retaliation and on hit condis eat dps classes alive and its only hp that stops this.

    Please show specific builds or examples, again I don't see what you are explaining in endgame builds.

    I understand what you are trying to say, I just don't agree that this is an issue in actual builds and game play. If you check any endgame build for pve, all condi builds build Viper, all power builds build berserker (with some assassin gear depending on class). This is not affected by armor weight. The same applies to WvW where the sets differ to usually incorporate as much toughness as possible depending on the range you play (frontline, mid- or backline).

    You are talking pure theory which is not actually true in game.

    I'm asking for specific examples where a light armor class will specifically build inferior gear into their build.

    Your viper build what class? As 2 of the 3 light armor classes have high to mid hp i would not call them glassy that the problem and your unable to see the problem other classes that you may not be playing because your set up works well for you.

    Something underline of a problem with GW2 community it is the nice community but more then often if there build and set up for the class they like is good every thing else is ok in the game with out any though to classes who are at a big disavaged. Its selfishnessism and if its showing it self in a video game that is know for a nice community there not much hope any where else.

    And you know well and every one else on the forms what i am talking about but no one can say it with out these ideals and though getting thown into the shadow realm of these forms.

    Also these are general forms lets keep it that way. Its a question of hp / def having variation but nothing else and how in time elite spec. are braking down this type of balancing. Having mid to high def / hp classes with strong ranged dmg is broken. Having low def/hp classes to be melee is broken as they cant pull if off in any real combat.

    This is not just a question of armor types this is a question of hp types as hp is way more important.

    https://snowcrows.com/
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/elementalist/weaver/condition/ - condi elementalist, full viper
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/thief/daredevil/condition/ - condi thief, full viper
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/guardian/firebrand/condition/ - condi firebrand, full viper

    All 3 low hitpoint classes running their pve condi builds, all of them full viper.

    Nobody uses passive defenses in endgame pve, it's a waste of stats.

    EDIT: and please, this applies to all pve builds, power too. All classes use the same gear in 95% of the time. The only difference is occasionally from traits which allow some classes to easier reach cap condition duration, boon duration or critical hit chance. Absolutely armor unrelated.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    As for armor you give up a lot of power just to make up for the fact your not a soldier where the soldier can push dmg all the more. All though vit is way more important then armor in this game. High hp classes get to get free dmg builds where low hp classes often MUST run vit at some level or they will kill them self on passive reticulation or a random condi on hit.

    Which game mode are we talking about?
    Spvp, WvW or PvE?

    Can you prove this?

    Last I checked classes in high end PvE run the exact same Stat combinations across all 3 weight classes optimizing for damage or support.

    The same applies to WvW and builds there.

    Less armor targets and hp targets to hit for higher classes lets them build more crit dmg or condi dmg. There is a very much set cap to these dmg type in this game and pure power is not a true viable dmg type sadly. There was talk a long time ago with main crit dmg gear set but it never came out i bet it was because it would push the high hp / def classes dmg that much higher then the lower hp / def classes who because they are the wrong class must build def to do dmg.

    The prove is that we have a lot of passive dmg effects in gw2 retaliation and on hit condis eat dps classes alive and its only hp that stops this.

    Please show specific builds or examples, again I don't see what you are explaining in endgame builds.

    I understand what you are trying to say, I just don't agree that this is an issue in actual builds and game play. If you check any endgame build for pve, all condi builds build Viper, all power builds build berserker (with some assassin gear depending on class). This is not affected by armor weight. The same applies to WvW where the sets differ to usually incorporate as much toughness as possible depending on the range you play (frontline, mid- or backline).

    You are talking pure theory which is not actually true in game.

    I'm asking for specific examples where a light armor class will specifically build inferior gear into their build.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    As for armor you give up a lot of power just to make up for the fact your not a soldier where the soldier can push dmg all the more. All though vit is way more important then armor in this game. High hp classes get to get free dmg builds where low hp classes often MUST run vit at some level or they will kill them self on passive reticulation or a random condi on hit.

    Which game mode are we talking about?
    Spvp, WvW or PvE?

    Can you prove this?

    Last I checked classes in high end PvE run the exact same Stat combinations across all 3 weight classes optimizing for damage or support.

    The same applies to WvW and builds there.

    Less armor targets and hp targets to hit for higher classes lets them build more crit dmg or condi dmg. There is a very much set cap to these dmg type in this game and pure power is not a true viable dmg type sadly. There was talk a long time ago with main crit dmg gear set but it never came out i bet it was because it would push the high hp / def classes dmg that much higher then the lower hp / def classes who because they are the wrong class must build def to do dmg.

    The prove is that we have a lot of passive dmg effects in gw2 retaliation and on hit condis eat dps classes alive and its only hp that stops this.

    Please show specific builds or examples, again I don't see what you are explaining in endgame builds.

    I understand what you are trying to say, I just don't agree that this is an issue in actual builds and game play. If you check any endgame build for pve, all condi builds build Viper, all power builds build berserker (with some assassin gear depending on class). This is not affected by armor weight. The same applies to WvW where the sets differ to usually incorporate as much toughness as possible depending on the range you play (frontline, mid- or backline).

    You are talking pure theory which is not actually true in game.

    I'm asking for specific examples where a light armor class will specifically build inferior gear into their build.

    Your viper build what class? As 2 of the 3 light armor classes have high to mid hp i would not call them glassy that the problem and your unable to see the problem other classes that you may not be playing because your set up works well for you.

    Something underline of a problem with GW2 community it is the nice community but more then often if there build and set up for the class they like is good every thing else is ok in the game with out any though to classes who are at a big disavaged. Its selfishnessism and if its showing it self in a video game that is know for a nice community there not much hope any where else.

    And you know well and every one else on the forms what i am talking about but no one can say it with out these ideals and though getting thown into the shadow realm of these forms.

    Also these are general forms lets keep it that way. Its a question of hp / def having variation but nothing else and how in time elite spec. are braking down this type of balancing. Having mid to high def / hp classes with strong ranged dmg is broken. Having low def/hp classes to be melee is broken as they cant pull if off in any real combat.

    This is not just a question of armor types this is a question of hp types as hp is way more important.

    https://snowcrows.com/
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/elementalist/weaver/condition/ - condi elementalist, full viper
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/thief/daredevil/condition/ - condi thief, full viper
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/guardian/firebrand/condition/ - condi firebrand, full viper

    All 3 low hitpoint classes running their pve condi builds, all of them full viper.

    Nobody uses passive defenses in endgame pve, it's a waste of stats.

    Good for them it dose not make it balance and shows the problem with elite spec and how they are modding the old points of balances.

    Why dose the ele run earth line when it would get more out of arcain or even air for dmg.

    Also pve has brain dead mobs often are just a joke of real need for balancing. Though its still important and if the mobs are not attking you at all where you need no def then the game type is to easy.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2018

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    As for armor you give up a lot of power just to make up for the fact your not a soldier where the soldier can push dmg all the more. All though vit is way more important then armor in this game. High hp classes get to get free dmg builds where low hp classes often MUST run vit at some level or they will kill them self on passive reticulation or a random condi on hit.

    Which game mode are we talking about?
    Spvp, WvW or PvE?

    Can you prove this?

    Last I checked classes in high end PvE run the exact same Stat combinations across all 3 weight classes optimizing for damage or support.

    The same applies to WvW and builds there.

    Less armor targets and hp targets to hit for higher classes lets them build more crit dmg or condi dmg. There is a very much set cap to these dmg type in this game and pure power is not a true viable dmg type sadly. There was talk a long time ago with main crit dmg gear set but it never came out i bet it was because it would push the high hp / def classes dmg that much higher then the lower hp / def classes who because they are the wrong class must build def to do dmg.

    The prove is that we have a lot of passive dmg effects in gw2 retaliation and on hit condis eat dps classes alive and its only hp that stops this.

    Please show specific builds or examples, again I don't see what you are explaining in endgame builds.

    I understand what you are trying to say, I just don't agree that this is an issue in actual builds and game play. If you check any endgame build for pve, all condi builds build Viper, all power builds build berserker (with some assassin gear depending on class). This is not affected by armor weight. The same applies to WvW where the sets differ to usually incorporate as much toughness as possible depending on the range you play (frontline, mid- or backline).

    You are talking pure theory which is not actually true in game.

    I'm asking for specific examples where a light armor class will specifically build inferior gear into their build.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    As for armor you give up a lot of power just to make up for the fact your not a soldier where the soldier can push dmg all the more. All though vit is way more important then armor in this game. High hp classes get to get free dmg builds where low hp classes often MUST run vit at some level or they will kill them self on passive reticulation or a random condi on hit.

    Which game mode are we talking about?
    Spvp, WvW or PvE?

    Can you prove this?

    Last I checked classes in high end PvE run the exact same Stat combinations across all 3 weight classes optimizing for damage or support.

    The same applies to WvW and builds there.

    Less armor targets and hp targets to hit for higher classes lets them build more crit dmg or condi dmg. There is a very much set cap to these dmg type in this game and pure power is not a true viable dmg type sadly. There was talk a long time ago with main crit dmg gear set but it never came out i bet it was because it would push the high hp / def classes dmg that much higher then the lower hp / def classes who because they are the wrong class must build def to do dmg.

    The prove is that we have a lot of passive dmg effects in gw2 retaliation and on hit condis eat dps classes alive and its only hp that stops this.

    Please show specific builds or examples, again I don't see what you are explaining in endgame builds.

    I understand what you are trying to say, I just don't agree that this is an issue in actual builds and game play. If you check any endgame build for pve, all condi builds build Viper, all power builds build berserker (with some assassin gear depending on class). This is not affected by armor weight. The same applies to WvW where the sets differ to usually incorporate as much toughness as possible depending on the range you play (frontline, mid- or backline).

    You are talking pure theory which is not actually true in game.

    I'm asking for specific examples where a light armor class will specifically build inferior gear into their build.

    Your viper build what class? As 2 of the 3 light armor classes have high to mid hp i would not call them glassy that the problem and your unable to see the problem other classes that you may not be playing because your set up works well for you.

    Something underline of a problem with GW2 community it is the nice community but more then often if there build and set up for the class they like is good every thing else is ok in the game with out any though to classes who are at a big disavaged. Its selfishnessism and if its showing it self in a video game that is know for a nice community there not much hope any where else.

    And you know well and every one else on the forms what i am talking about but no one can say it with out these ideals and though getting thown into the shadow realm of these forms.

    Also these are general forms lets keep it that way. Its a question of hp / def having variation but nothing else and how in time elite spec. are braking down this type of balancing. Having mid to high def / hp classes with strong ranged dmg is broken. Having low def/hp classes to be melee is broken as they cant pull if off in any real combat.

    This is not just a question of armor types this is a question of hp types as hp is way more important.

    https://snowcrows.com/
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/elementalist/weaver/condition/ - condi elementalist, full viper
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/thief/daredevil/condition/ - condi thief, full viper
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/guardian/firebrand/condition/ - condi firebrand, full viper

    All 3 low hitpoint classes running their pve condi builds, all of them full viper.

    Nobody uses passive defenses in endgame pve, it's a waste of stats.

    Good for them it dose not make it balance and shows the problem with elite spec and how they are modding the old points of balances.

    Why dose the ele run earth line when it would get more out of arcain or even air for dmg.

    Also pve has brain dead mobs often are just a joke of real need for balancing. Though its still important and if the mobs are not attking you at all where you need no def then the game type is to easy.

    First off, the elementalist runs earth because the the total damage is higher than with arcain, you would know this if you understood what these builds are for = maximum damage output possible per class.

    The pve brain dead mobs get nullified with active defenses, not passive ones, but yes they pose little threat on any class if you know what you do. Then again most attacks from raid bosses wipe you off the face of the earth if you eat them face first no matter your hitpoint pool.

    Thus we are at my original question, which game mode are we talking about? I assume now it's WvW.

    Now I could link you some metabattle builds and once again show that people actually build the same gear sets if they desire the same result no matter the base hitpoint pool with only some minor personal differences. Then I would comment on how WvW is a numbers game, how all 3 light armor classes have insane baseline survival skills built into their kit and that positioning is king in WvW and once again survival is dependent on active defenses.

    and we ultimately end at what I said earlier: the theory is not reflected in endgame builds because quite frankly, the hitpoint and armor difference is of minor concern compared to actual class builds, traits and utilities.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    As for armor you give up a lot of power just to make up for the fact your not a soldier where the soldier can push dmg all the more. All though vit is way more important then armor in this game. High hp classes get to get free dmg builds where low hp classes often MUST run vit at some level or they will kill them self on passive reticulation or a random condi on hit.

    Which game mode are we talking about?
    Spvp, WvW or PvE?

    Can you prove this?

    Last I checked classes in high end PvE run the exact same Stat combinations across all 3 weight classes optimizing for damage or support.

    The same applies to WvW and builds there.

    Less armor targets and hp targets to hit for higher classes lets them build more crit dmg or condi dmg. There is a very much set cap to these dmg type in this game and pure power is not a true viable dmg type sadly. There was talk a long time ago with main crit dmg gear set but it never came out i bet it was because it would push the high hp / def classes dmg that much higher then the lower hp / def classes who because they are the wrong class must build def to do dmg.

    The prove is that we have a lot of passive dmg effects in gw2 retaliation and on hit condis eat dps classes alive and its only hp that stops this.

    Please show specific builds or examples, again I don't see what you are explaining in endgame builds.

    I understand what you are trying to say, I just don't agree that this is an issue in actual builds and game play. If you check any endgame build for pve, all condi builds build Viper, all power builds build berserker (with some assassin gear depending on class). This is not affected by armor weight. The same applies to WvW where the sets differ to usually incorporate as much toughness as possible depending on the range you play (frontline, mid- or backline).

    You are talking pure theory which is not actually true in game.

    I'm asking for specific examples where a light armor class will specifically build inferior gear into their build.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    As for armor you give up a lot of power just to make up for the fact your not a soldier where the soldier can push dmg all the more. All though vit is way more important then armor in this game. High hp classes get to get free dmg builds where low hp classes often MUST run vit at some level or they will kill them self on passive reticulation or a random condi on hit.

    Which game mode are we talking about?
    Spvp, WvW or PvE?

    Can you prove this?

    Last I checked classes in high end PvE run the exact same Stat combinations across all 3 weight classes optimizing for damage or support.

    The same applies to WvW and builds there.

    Less armor targets and hp targets to hit for higher classes lets them build more crit dmg or condi dmg. There is a very much set cap to these dmg type in this game and pure power is not a true viable dmg type sadly. There was talk a long time ago with main crit dmg gear set but it never came out i bet it was because it would push the high hp / def classes dmg that much higher then the lower hp / def classes who because they are the wrong class must build def to do dmg.

    The prove is that we have a lot of passive dmg effects in gw2 retaliation and on hit condis eat dps classes alive and its only hp that stops this.

    Please show specific builds or examples, again I don't see what you are explaining in endgame builds.

    I understand what you are trying to say, I just don't agree that this is an issue in actual builds and game play. If you check any endgame build for pve, all condi builds build Viper, all power builds build berserker (with some assassin gear depending on class). This is not affected by armor weight. The same applies to WvW where the sets differ to usually incorporate as much toughness as possible depending on the range you play (frontline, mid- or backline).

    You are talking pure theory which is not actually true in game.

    I'm asking for specific examples where a light armor class will specifically build inferior gear into their build.

    Your viper build what class? As 2 of the 3 light armor classes have high to mid hp i would not call them glassy that the problem and your unable to see the problem other classes that you may not be playing because your set up works well for you.

    Something underline of a problem with GW2 community it is the nice community but more then often if there build and set up for the class they like is good every thing else is ok in the game with out any though to classes who are at a big disavaged. Its selfishnessism and if its showing it self in a video game that is know for a nice community there not much hope any where else.

    And you know well and every one else on the forms what i am talking about but no one can say it with out these ideals and though getting thown into the shadow realm of these forms.

    Also these are general forms lets keep it that way. Its a question of hp / def having variation but nothing else and how in time elite spec. are braking down this type of balancing. Having mid to high def / hp classes with strong ranged dmg is broken. Having low def/hp classes to be melee is broken as they cant pull if off in any real combat.

    This is not just a question of armor types this is a question of hp types as hp is way more important.

    https://snowcrows.com/
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/elementalist/weaver/condition/ - condi elementalist, full viper
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/thief/daredevil/condition/ - condi thief, full viper
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/guardian/firebrand/condition/ - condi firebrand, full viper

    All 3 low hitpoint classes running their pve condi builds, all of them full viper.

    Nobody uses passive defenses in endgame pve, it's a waste of stats.

    Good for them it dose not make it balance and shows the problem with elite spec and how they are modding the old points of balances.

    Why dose the ele run earth line when it would get more out of arcain or even air for dmg.

    Also pve has brain dead mobs often are just a joke of real need for balancing. Though its still important and if the mobs are not attking you at all where you need no def then the game type is to easy.

    First off, the elementalist runs earth because the the total damage is higher than with arcain, you would know this if you understood what these builds are for = maximum damage output possible per class.

    The pve brain dead mobs get nullified with active defenses, not passive ones, but yes they pose little threat on any class if you know what you do. Then again most attacks from raid bosses wipe you off the face of the earth if you eat them face first no matter your hitpoint pool.

    Thus we are at my original question, which game mode are we talking about? I assume now it's WvW. Now I could link you some metabattle builds and once again show that people actually build the same gear sets if they desire the same result no matter the base hitpoint pool with only some minor personal differences. Then I would comment on how WvW is a numbers game, how all 3 light armor classes have insane baseline survival skills built into their kit and that positioning is king in WvW and once again survival is dependent on active defenses.

    Is the build better then other classes part of the talk we are having as you have the full glass class of ele vs say the not so class dardevil and FB who is doing better dmg?

    Every one should be taking dmg and there should be a minim of living though hits and not just a one shot game play as that not good for balancing. It comply destroy the argument that some one else brings up that making power / precision different from class to class making the game all about glass as it seems to be all about going all in glass. If any thing its pve that holding this game back if what your saying is true and pve has such stunted effect on classes.

    For wvw is all about living though that one shot from rev about 12k to 17k dmg and all about trying to one shot that rev who has higher hp and def then the other ranged classes. The cost of being able to live though these hits of dmg as well as utility given up. At the same time you must be able to live though your owns skills vs up the passive effects of classes mostly the high hp / def classes have.

    So me a real meta build out side of FB, scorge, rev, and spell braker all of watch are higher def classes (def or hp mostly hp but for FB who will run all in def gear making up for any lost of hp with out giving up any type of real support).

    For Spvp its about being able to kill ppl with out being too glassly. Offten you just find classes simply are able to run with the mid to high def / hp. The lower hp / def classes cant build high enofe dmg to kill them with out being a simple drain on there team.

    That is where the game is today if your not the right class your hated and kicked you CANT play the game the way you want and THIS hp / def variation is part of the problem. There no amount of being nice and letting token classes join with you will help this too and you cant just simply ignore it as one of the forgotten classes. This is caused by anet and can only be fixed by anet.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2018

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    As for armor you give up a lot of power just to make up for the fact your not a soldier where the soldier can push dmg all the more. All though vit is way more important then armor in this game. High hp classes get to get free dmg builds where low hp classes often MUST run vit at some level or they will kill them self on passive reticulation or a random condi on hit.

    Which game mode are we talking about?
    Spvp, WvW or PvE?

    Can you prove this?

    Last I checked classes in high end PvE run the exact same Stat combinations across all 3 weight classes optimizing for damage or support.

    The same applies to WvW and builds there.

    Less armor targets and hp targets to hit for higher classes lets them build more crit dmg or condi dmg. There is a very much set cap to these dmg type in this game and pure power is not a true viable dmg type sadly. There was talk a long time ago with main crit dmg gear set but it never came out i bet it was because it would push the high hp / def classes dmg that much higher then the lower hp / def classes who because they are the wrong class must build def to do dmg.

    The prove is that we have a lot of passive dmg effects in gw2 retaliation and on hit condis eat dps classes alive and its only hp that stops this.

    Please show specific builds or examples, again I don't see what you are explaining in endgame builds.

    I understand what you are trying to say, I just don't agree that this is an issue in actual builds and game play. If you check any endgame build for pve, all condi builds build Viper, all power builds build berserker (with some assassin gear depending on class). This is not affected by armor weight. The same applies to WvW where the sets differ to usually incorporate as much toughness as possible depending on the range you play (frontline, mid- or backline).

    You are talking pure theory which is not actually true in game.

    I'm asking for specific examples where a light armor class will specifically build inferior gear into their build.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    As for armor you give up a lot of power just to make up for the fact your not a soldier where the soldier can push dmg all the more. All though vit is way more important then armor in this game. High hp classes get to get free dmg builds where low hp classes often MUST run vit at some level or they will kill them self on passive reticulation or a random condi on hit.

    Which game mode are we talking about?
    Spvp, WvW or PvE?

    Can you prove this?

    Last I checked classes in high end PvE run the exact same Stat combinations across all 3 weight classes optimizing for damage or support.

    The same applies to WvW and builds there.

    Less armor targets and hp targets to hit for higher classes lets them build more crit dmg or condi dmg. There is a very much set cap to these dmg type in this game and pure power is not a true viable dmg type sadly. There was talk a long time ago with main crit dmg gear set but it never came out i bet it was because it would push the high hp / def classes dmg that much higher then the lower hp / def classes who because they are the wrong class must build def to do dmg.

    The prove is that we have a lot of passive dmg effects in gw2 retaliation and on hit condis eat dps classes alive and its only hp that stops this.

    Please show specific builds or examples, again I don't see what you are explaining in endgame builds.

    I understand what you are trying to say, I just don't agree that this is an issue in actual builds and game play. If you check any endgame build for pve, all condi builds build Viper, all power builds build berserker (with some assassin gear depending on class). This is not affected by armor weight. The same applies to WvW where the sets differ to usually incorporate as much toughness as possible depending on the range you play (frontline, mid- or backline).

    You are talking pure theory which is not actually true in game.

    I'm asking for specific examples where a light armor class will specifically build inferior gear into their build.

    Your viper build what class? As 2 of the 3 light armor classes have high to mid hp i would not call them glassy that the problem and your unable to see the problem other classes that you may not be playing because your set up works well for you.

    Something underline of a problem with GW2 community it is the nice community but more then often if there build and set up for the class they like is good every thing else is ok in the game with out any though to classes who are at a big disavaged. Its selfishnessism and if its showing it self in a video game that is know for a nice community there not much hope any where else.

    And you know well and every one else on the forms what i am talking about but no one can say it with out these ideals and though getting thown into the shadow realm of these forms.

    Also these are general forms lets keep it that way. Its a question of hp / def having variation but nothing else and how in time elite spec. are braking down this type of balancing. Having mid to high def / hp classes with strong ranged dmg is broken. Having low def/hp classes to be melee is broken as they cant pull if off in any real combat.

    This is not just a question of armor types this is a question of hp types as hp is way more important.

    https://snowcrows.com/
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/elementalist/weaver/condition/ - condi elementalist, full viper
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/thief/daredevil/condition/ - condi thief, full viper
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/guardian/firebrand/condition/ - condi firebrand, full viper

    All 3 low hitpoint classes running their pve condi builds, all of them full viper.

    Nobody uses passive defenses in endgame pve, it's a waste of stats.

    Good for them it dose not make it balance and shows the problem with elite spec and how they are modding the old points of balances.

    Why dose the ele run earth line when it would get more out of arcain or even air for dmg.

    Also pve has brain dead mobs often are just a joke of real need for balancing. Though its still important and if the mobs are not attking you at all where you need no def then the game type is to easy.

    First off, the elementalist runs earth because the the total damage is higher than with arcain, you would know this if you understood what these builds are for = maximum damage output possible per class.

    The pve brain dead mobs get nullified with active defenses, not passive ones, but yes they pose little threat on any class if you know what you do. Then again most attacks from raid bosses wipe you off the face of the earth if you eat them face first no matter your hitpoint pool.

    Thus we are at my original question, which game mode are we talking about? I assume now it's WvW. Now I could link you some metabattle builds and once again show that people actually build the same gear sets if they desire the same result no matter the base hitpoint pool with only some minor personal differences. Then I would comment on how WvW is a numbers game, how all 3 light armor classes have insane baseline survival skills built into their kit and that positioning is king in WvW and once again survival is dependent on active defenses.

    Is the build better then other classes part of the talk we are having as you have the full glass class of ele vs say the not so class dardevil and FB who is doing better dmg?

    Not sure what you are getting at, all classes use the same gear. The resulting disparity in damage thus will be due to balance of skills, not hitpoint pools or armor. Go check the benchmarks to see class performance disparity but again, this is with maximum damage gear. No class will outperform another suddenly when taking Less damage gear.

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Every one should be taking dmg and there should be a minim of living though hits and not just a one shot game play as that not good for balancing. It comply destroy the argument that some one else brings up that making power / precision different from class to class making the game all about glass as it seems to be all about going all in glass. If any thing its pve that holding this game back if what your saying is true and pve has such stunted effect on classes.

    PvE has remained the same ever since release. It was always a pure damage race and defensive stats have been useless ever since. This has to do with active mitigation and the active combat system and not with hitpoint pools or armor values.

    @Jski.6180 said:
    For wvw is all about living though that one shot from rev about 12k to 17k dmg and all about trying to one shot that rev who has higher hp and def then the other ranged classes. The cost of being able to live though these hits of dmg as well as utility given up. At the same time you must be able to live though your owns skills vs up the passive effects of classes mostly the high hp / def classes have.

    So me a real meta build out side of FB, scorge, rev, and spell braker all of watch are higher def classes (def or hp mostly hp but for FB who will run all in def gear making up for any lost of hp with out giving up any type of real support).

    Go look them up yourself. Most run high toughness if they are Frontline with varying degrees of toughness towards the back line.

    @Jski.6180 said:
    For Spvp its about being able to kill ppl with out being too glassly. Offten you just find classes simply are able to run with the mid to high def / hp. The lower hp / def classes cant build high enofe dmg to kill them with out being a simple drain on there team.

    Thief while being stealthed is glassy? Have you ever fought a good elementalists or engineer (medium hitpoints) 1on1? Tell me how well that fight went with the Firebrand who is getting aegis left an right.

    Go check the spvp forums for which classes made the "please nerf now" cycle of the week. Here's a hint: it hasn't been high hitpoint classes in a while, and even there all complaints are centered around classes active abilities in general.

    @Jski.6180 said:
    That is where the game is today if your not the right class your hated and kicked you CANT play the game the way you want and THIS hp / def variation is part of the problem. There no amount of being nice and letting token classes join with you will help this too and you cant just simply ignore it as one of the forgotten classes. This is caused by anet and can only be fixed by anet.

    This has NOTHING to do with armor or hitpoint pools.

    This is all about peak performance damage wise in pve and most useful active defensive abilities while staying as offensive as possible in competative modes.

    All based on class traits, skills and abilities.

    TL;DR: hitpoint pools and armor values are not significant enough to actually make big enough a difference compared to abilities, traits and design.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    As for armor you give up a lot of power just to make up for the fact your not a soldier where the soldier can push dmg all the more. All though vit is way more important then armor in this game. High hp classes get to get free dmg builds where low hp classes often MUST run vit at some level or they will kill them self on passive reticulation or a random condi on hit.

    Which game mode are we talking about?
    Spvp, WvW or PvE?

    Can you prove this?

    Last I checked classes in high end PvE run the exact same Stat combinations across all 3 weight classes optimizing for damage or support.

    The same applies to WvW and builds there.

    Less armor targets and hp targets to hit for higher classes lets them build more crit dmg or condi dmg. There is a very much set cap to these dmg type in this game and pure power is not a true viable dmg type sadly. There was talk a long time ago with main crit dmg gear set but it never came out i bet it was because it would push the high hp / def classes dmg that much higher then the lower hp / def classes who because they are the wrong class must build def to do dmg.

    The prove is that we have a lot of passive dmg effects in gw2 retaliation and on hit condis eat dps classes alive and its only hp that stops this.

    Please show specific builds or examples, again I don't see what you are explaining in endgame builds.

    I understand what you are trying to say, I just don't agree that this is an issue in actual builds and game play. If you check any endgame build for pve, all condi builds build Viper, all power builds build berserker (with some assassin gear depending on class). This is not affected by armor weight. The same applies to WvW where the sets differ to usually incorporate as much toughness as possible depending on the range you play (frontline, mid- or backline).

    You are talking pure theory which is not actually true in game.

    I'm asking for specific examples where a light armor class will specifically build inferior gear into their build.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    As for armor you give up a lot of power just to make up for the fact your not a soldier where the soldier can push dmg all the more. All though vit is way more important then armor in this game. High hp classes get to get free dmg builds where low hp classes often MUST run vit at some level or they will kill them self on passive reticulation or a random condi on hit.

    Which game mode are we talking about?
    Spvp, WvW or PvE?

    Can you prove this?

    Last I checked classes in high end PvE run the exact same Stat combinations across all 3 weight classes optimizing for damage or support.

    The same applies to WvW and builds there.

    Less armor targets and hp targets to hit for higher classes lets them build more crit dmg or condi dmg. There is a very much set cap to these dmg type in this game and pure power is not a true viable dmg type sadly. There was talk a long time ago with main crit dmg gear set but it never came out i bet it was because it would push the high hp / def classes dmg that much higher then the lower hp / def classes who because they are the wrong class must build def to do dmg.

    The prove is that we have a lot of passive dmg effects in gw2 retaliation and on hit condis eat dps classes alive and its only hp that stops this.

    Please show specific builds or examples, again I don't see what you are explaining in endgame builds.

    I understand what you are trying to say, I just don't agree that this is an issue in actual builds and game play. If you check any endgame build for pve, all condi builds build Viper, all power builds build berserker (with some assassin gear depending on class). This is not affected by armor weight. The same applies to WvW where the sets differ to usually incorporate as much toughness as possible depending on the range you play (frontline, mid- or backline).

    You are talking pure theory which is not actually true in game.

    I'm asking for specific examples where a light armor class will specifically build inferior gear into their build.

    Your viper build what class? As 2 of the 3 light armor classes have high to mid hp i would not call them glassy that the problem and your unable to see the problem other classes that you may not be playing because your set up works well for you.

    Something underline of a problem with GW2 community it is the nice community but more then often if there build and set up for the class they like is good every thing else is ok in the game with out any though to classes who are at a big disavaged. Its selfishnessism and if its showing it self in a video game that is know for a nice community there not much hope any where else.

    And you know well and every one else on the forms what i am talking about but no one can say it with out these ideals and though getting thown into the shadow realm of these forms.

    Also these are general forms lets keep it that way. Its a question of hp / def having variation but nothing else and how in time elite spec. are braking down this type of balancing. Having mid to high def / hp classes with strong ranged dmg is broken. Having low def/hp classes to be melee is broken as they cant pull if off in any real combat.

    This is not just a question of armor types this is a question of hp types as hp is way more important.

    https://snowcrows.com/
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/elementalist/weaver/condition/ - condi elementalist, full viper
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/thief/daredevil/condition/ - condi thief, full viper
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/guardian/firebrand/condition/ - condi firebrand, full viper

    All 3 low hitpoint classes running their pve condi builds, all of them full viper.

    Nobody uses passive defenses in endgame pve, it's a waste of stats.

    Good for them it dose not make it balance and shows the problem with elite spec and how they are modding the old points of balances.

    Why dose the ele run earth line when it would get more out of arcain or even air for dmg.

    Also pve has brain dead mobs often are just a joke of real need for balancing. Though its still important and if the mobs are not attking you at all where you need no def then the game type is to easy.

    First off, the elementalist runs earth because the the total damage is higher than with arcain, you would know this if you understood what these builds are for = maximum damage output possible per class.

    The pve brain dead mobs get nullified with active defenses, not passive ones, but yes they pose little threat on any class if you know what you do. Then again most attacks from raid bosses wipe you off the face of the earth if you eat them face first no matter your hitpoint pool.

    Thus we are at my original question, which game mode are we talking about? I assume now it's WvW. Now I could link you some metabattle builds and once again show that people actually build the same gear sets if they desire the same result no matter the base hitpoint pool with only some minor personal differences. Then I would comment on how WvW is a numbers game, how all 3 light armor classes have insane baseline survival skills built into their kit and that positioning is king in WvW and once again survival is dependent on active defenses.

    Is the build better then other classes part of the talk we are having as you have the full glass class of ele vs say the not so class dardevil and FB who is doing better dmg?

    Not sure what you are getting at, all classes use the same gear. The resulting disparity in damage thus will be due to balance of skills, not hitpoint pools or armor. Go check the benchmarks to see class performance disparity but again, this is with maximum damage gear. No class will outperform another suddenly when taking Less damage gear.

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Every one should be taking dmg and there should be a minim of living though hits and not just a one shot game play as that not good for balancing. It comply destroy the argument that some one else brings up that making power / precision different from class to class making the game all about glass as it seems to be all about going all in glass. If any thing its pve that holding this game back if what your saying is true and pve has such stunted effect on classes.

    PvE has remained the same ever since release. It was always a pure damage race and defensive stats have been useless ever since. This has to do with active mitigation and the active combat system and not with hitpoint pools or armor values.

    Old pve was every one doing dmg not just the dps and you had no tanks and healing support. Blasting water and team work was the only real support back then now its very diffrent and that due to elite spec.

    @Jski.6180 said:
    For wvw is all about living though that one shot from rev about 12k to 17k dmg and all about trying to one shot that rev who has higher hp and def then the other ranged classes. The cost of being able to live though these hits of dmg as well as utility given up. At the same time you must be able to live though your owns skills vs up the passive effects of classes mostly the high hp / def classes have.

    So me a real meta build out side of FB, scorge, rev, and spell braker all of watch are higher def classes (def or hp mostly hp but for FB who will run all in def gear making up for any lost of hp with out giving up any type of real support).

    Go look them up yourself. Most run high toughness if they are Frontline with varying degrees of toughness towards the back line.

    There are no frontline builds because of rev and scorge being able to out put so much dmg and to be as tankly as they are. There ranged classes and the classes who support though ranged classes.

    @Jski.6180 said:
    For Spvp its about being able to kill ppl with out being too glassly. Offten you just find classes simply are able to run with the mid to high def / hp. The lower hp / def classes cant build high enofe dmg to kill them with out being a simple drain on there team.

    Thief while being stealthed is glassy? Have you ever fought a good elementalists or engineer (medium hitpoints) 1on1? Tell me how well that fight went with the Firebrand who is getting aegis left an right.

    A stealth thf not caping points. Ele is only tankly though its gear and you cant build glassly out side of the weaver and that only due to power creep of weaver vs tempest vs core. Eng has high passive def its part of the problem.

    Go check the spvp forums for which classes made the "please nerf now" cycle of the week. Here's a hint: it hasn't been high hitpoint classes in a while, and even there all complaints are centered around classes active abilities in general.

    Its just the same classes over and over the cycle your tricking your self with is ppl willingness to talk about it.

    @Jski.6180 said:
    That is where the game is today if your not the right class your hated and kicked you CANT play the game the way you want and THIS hp / def variation is part of the problem. There no amount of being nice and letting token classes join with you will help this too and you cant just simply ignore it as one of the forgotten classes. This is caused by anet and can only be fixed by anet.

    This has NOTHING to do with armor or hitpoint pools.

    This is all about peak performance damage wise in pve and most useful active defensive abilities while staying as offensive as possible in competative modes.

    All based on class traits, skills and abilities.

    All that on the gear builds that are all on base hp / def.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2018

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    As for armor you give up a lot of power just to make up for the fact your not a soldier where the soldier can push dmg all the more. All though vit is way more important then armor in this game. High hp classes get to get free dmg builds where low hp classes often MUST run vit at some level or they will kill them self on passive reticulation or a random condi on hit.

    Which game mode are we talking about?
    Spvp, WvW or PvE?

    Can you prove this?

    Last I checked classes in high end PvE run the exact same Stat combinations across all 3 weight classes optimizing for damage or support.

    The same applies to WvW and builds there.

    Less armor targets and hp targets to hit for higher classes lets them build more crit dmg or condi dmg. There is a very much set cap to these dmg type in this game and pure power is not a true viable dmg type sadly. There was talk a long time ago with main crit dmg gear set but it never came out i bet it was because it would push the high hp / def classes dmg that much higher then the lower hp / def classes who because they are the wrong class must build def to do dmg.

    The prove is that we have a lot of passive dmg effects in gw2 retaliation and on hit condis eat dps classes alive and its only hp that stops this.

    Please show specific builds or examples, again I don't see what you are explaining in endgame builds.

    I understand what you are trying to say, I just don't agree that this is an issue in actual builds and game play. If you check any endgame build for pve, all condi builds build Viper, all power builds build berserker (with some assassin gear depending on class). This is not affected by armor weight. The same applies to WvW where the sets differ to usually incorporate as much toughness as possible depending on the range you play (frontline, mid- or backline).

    You are talking pure theory which is not actually true in game.

    I'm asking for specific examples where a light armor class will specifically build inferior gear into their build.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    As for armor you give up a lot of power just to make up for the fact your not a soldier where the soldier can push dmg all the more. All though vit is way more important then armor in this game. High hp classes get to get free dmg builds where low hp classes often MUST run vit at some level or they will kill them self on passive reticulation or a random condi on hit.

    Which game mode are we talking about?
    Spvp, WvW or PvE?

    Can you prove this?

    Last I checked classes in high end PvE run the exact same Stat combinations across all 3 weight classes optimizing for damage or support.

    The same applies to WvW and builds there.

    Less armor targets and hp targets to hit for higher classes lets them build more crit dmg or condi dmg. There is a very much set cap to these dmg type in this game and pure power is not a true viable dmg type sadly. There was talk a long time ago with main crit dmg gear set but it never came out i bet it was because it would push the high hp / def classes dmg that much higher then the lower hp / def classes who because they are the wrong class must build def to do dmg.

    The prove is that we have a lot of passive dmg effects in gw2 retaliation and on hit condis eat dps classes alive and its only hp that stops this.

    Please show specific builds or examples, again I don't see what you are explaining in endgame builds.

    I understand what you are trying to say, I just don't agree that this is an issue in actual builds and game play. If you check any endgame build for pve, all condi builds build Viper, all power builds build berserker (with some assassin gear depending on class). This is not affected by armor weight. The same applies to WvW where the sets differ to usually incorporate as much toughness as possible depending on the range you play (frontline, mid- or backline).

    You are talking pure theory which is not actually true in game.

    I'm asking for specific examples where a light armor class will specifically build inferior gear into their build.

    Your viper build what class? As 2 of the 3 light armor classes have high to mid hp i would not call them glassy that the problem and your unable to see the problem other classes that you may not be playing because your set up works well for you.

    Something underline of a problem with GW2 community it is the nice community but more then often if there build and set up for the class they like is good every thing else is ok in the game with out any though to classes who are at a big disavaged. Its selfishnessism and if its showing it self in a video game that is know for a nice community there not much hope any where else.

    And you know well and every one else on the forms what i am talking about but no one can say it with out these ideals and though getting thown into the shadow realm of these forms.

    Also these are general forms lets keep it that way. Its a question of hp / def having variation but nothing else and how in time elite spec. are braking down this type of balancing. Having mid to high def / hp classes with strong ranged dmg is broken. Having low def/hp classes to be melee is broken as they cant pull if off in any real combat.

    This is not just a question of armor types this is a question of hp types as hp is way more important.

    https://snowcrows.com/
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/elementalist/weaver/condition/ - condi elementalist, full viper
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/thief/daredevil/condition/ - condi thief, full viper
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/guardian/firebrand/condition/ - condi firebrand, full viper

    All 3 low hitpoint classes running their pve condi builds, all of them full viper.

    Nobody uses passive defenses in endgame pve, it's a waste of stats.

    Good for them it dose not make it balance and shows the problem with elite spec and how they are modding the old points of balances.

    Why dose the ele run earth line when it would get more out of arcain or even air for dmg.

    Also pve has brain dead mobs often are just a joke of real need for balancing. Though its still important and if the mobs are not attking you at all where you need no def then the game type is to easy.

    First off, the elementalist runs earth because the the total damage is higher than with arcain, you would know this if you understood what these builds are for = maximum damage output possible per class.

    The pve brain dead mobs get nullified with active defenses, not passive ones, but yes they pose little threat on any class if you know what you do. Then again most attacks from raid bosses wipe you off the face of the earth if you eat them face first no matter your hitpoint pool.

    Thus we are at my original question, which game mode are we talking about? I assume now it's WvW. Now I could link you some metabattle builds and once again show that people actually build the same gear sets if they desire the same result no matter the base hitpoint pool with only some minor personal differences. Then I would comment on how WvW is a numbers game, how all 3 light armor classes have insane baseline survival skills built into their kit and that positioning is king in WvW and once again survival is dependent on active defenses.

    Is the build better then other classes part of the talk we are having as you have the full glass class of ele vs say the not so class dardevil and FB who is doing better dmg?

    Not sure what you are getting at, all classes use the same gear. The resulting disparity in damage thus will be due to balance of skills, not hitpoint pools or armor. Go check the benchmarks to see class performance disparity but again, this is with maximum damage gear. No class will outperform another suddenly when taking Less damage gear.

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Every one should be taking dmg and there should be a minim of living though hits and not just a one shot game play as that not good for balancing. It comply destroy the argument that some one else brings up that making power / precision different from class to class making the game all about glass as it seems to be all about going all in glass. If any thing its pve that holding this game back if what your saying is true and pve has such stunted effect on classes.

    PvE has remained the same ever since release. It was always a pure damage race and defensive stats have been useless ever since. This has to do with active mitigation and the active combat system and not with hitpoint pools or armor values.

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Old pve was every one doing dmg not just the dps and you had no tanks and healing support. Blasting water and team work was the only real support back then now its very diffrent and that due to elite spec.

    True, and now with elite specialisations it's the same unless you are a support and build healing power. Toughness stacking was always a thing in WvW. Hence why everyone uses maximum damage gear in PvE.

    Tanks are only a thing in raids and are currently 99% of the time chronos due to their class build and abilities. No high hitpoint class is even remotely used as tank for example. So once again, kinda not supporting your thesis here.

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    For wvw is all about living though that one shot from rev about 12k to 17k dmg and all about trying to one shot that rev who has higher hp and def then the other ranged classes. The cost of being able to live though these hits of dmg as well as utility given up. At the same time you must be able to live though your owns skills vs up the passive effects of classes mostly the high hp / def classes have.

    So me a real meta build out side of FB, scorge, rev, and spell braker all of watch are higher def classes (def or hp mostly hp but for FB who will run all in def gear making up for any lost of hp with out giving up any type of real support).

    Go look them up yourself. Most run high toughness if they are Frontline with varying degrees of toughness towards the back line.

    There are no frontline builds because of rev and scorge being able to out put so much dmg and to be as tankly as they are. There ranged classes and the classes who support though ranged classes.

    What? Okay whatever, not going to get into this discussion. You could have just said you are clueless about WvW.

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    For Spvp its about being able to kill ppl with out being too glassly. Offten you just find classes simply are able to run with the mid to high def / hp. The lower hp / def classes cant build high enofe dmg to kill them with out being a simple drain on there team.

    Thief while being stealthed is glassy? Have you ever fought a good elementalists or engineer (medium hitpoints) 1on1? Tell me how well that fight went with the Firebrand who is getting aegis left an right.

    A stealth thf not caping points. Ele is only tankly though its gear and you cant build glassly out side of the weaver and that only due to power creep of weaver vs tempest vs core. Eng has high passive def its part of the problem.

    Engineer is medium armor and medium hitpoint pool with a ton of utility (which is their survival), elementalists are tanky due to proper blasting and defensive utilities, Thief has the engage and disengage advantage thanks to stealth while being highly mobile with dodges.

    Come on man, this is getting silly.

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Go check the spvp forums for which classes made the "please nerf now" cycle of the week. Here's a hint: it hasn't been high hitpoint classes in a while, and even there all complaints are centered around classes active abilities in general.

    Its just the same classes over and over the cycle your tricking your self with is ppl willingness to talk about it.

    It was Mirage and Thief, now it's Thief and engineer. Try again.

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    That is where the game is today if your not the right class your hated and kicked you CANT play the game the way you want and THIS hp / def variation is part of the problem. There no amount of being nice and letting token classes join with you will help this too and you cant just simply ignore it as one of the forgotten classes. This is caused by anet and can only be fixed by anet.

    This has NOTHING to do with armor or hitpoint pools.

    This is all about peak performance damage wise in pve and most useful active defensive abilities while staying as offensive as possible in competative modes.

    All based on class traits, skills and abilities.

    All that on the gear builds that are all on base hp / def.

    You have yet to show that classes use different gear depending on hitpoint pools, something which you have NOT yet actually in any way proven.

    Also, not true.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    As for armor you give up a lot of power just to make up for the fact your not a soldier where the soldier can push dmg all the more. All though vit is way more important then armor in this game. High hp classes get to get free dmg builds where low hp classes often MUST run vit at some level or they will kill them self on passive reticulation or a random condi on hit.

    Which game mode are we talking about?
    Spvp, WvW or PvE?

    Can you prove this?

    Last I checked classes in high end PvE run the exact same Stat combinations across all 3 weight classes optimizing for damage or support.

    The same applies to WvW and builds there.

    Less armor targets and hp targets to hit for higher classes lets them build more crit dmg or condi dmg. There is a very much set cap to these dmg type in this game and pure power is not a true viable dmg type sadly. There was talk a long time ago with main crit dmg gear set but it never came out i bet it was because it would push the high hp / def classes dmg that much higher then the lower hp / def classes who because they are the wrong class must build def to do dmg.

    The prove is that we have a lot of passive dmg effects in gw2 retaliation and on hit condis eat dps classes alive and its only hp that stops this.

    Please show specific builds or examples, again I don't see what you are explaining in endgame builds.

    I understand what you are trying to say, I just don't agree that this is an issue in actual builds and game play. If you check any endgame build for pve, all condi builds build Viper, all power builds build berserker (with some assassin gear depending on class). This is not affected by armor weight. The same applies to WvW where the sets differ to usually incorporate as much toughness as possible depending on the range you play (frontline, mid- or backline).

    You are talking pure theory which is not actually true in game.

    I'm asking for specific examples where a light armor class will specifically build inferior gear into their build.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    As for armor you give up a lot of power just to make up for the fact your not a soldier where the soldier can push dmg all the more. All though vit is way more important then armor in this game. High hp classes get to get free dmg builds where low hp classes often MUST run vit at some level or they will kill them self on passive reticulation or a random condi on hit.

    Which game mode are we talking about?
    Spvp, WvW or PvE?

    Can you prove this?

    Last I checked classes in high end PvE run the exact same Stat combinations across all 3 weight classes optimizing for damage or support.

    The same applies to WvW and builds there.

    Less armor targets and hp targets to hit for higher classes lets them build more crit dmg or condi dmg. There is a very much set cap to these dmg type in this game and pure power is not a true viable dmg type sadly. There was talk a long time ago with main crit dmg gear set but it never came out i bet it was because it would push the high hp / def classes dmg that much higher then the lower hp / def classes who because they are the wrong class must build def to do dmg.

    The prove is that we have a lot of passive dmg effects in gw2 retaliation and on hit condis eat dps classes alive and its only hp that stops this.

    Please show specific builds or examples, again I don't see what you are explaining in endgame builds.

    I understand what you are trying to say, I just don't agree that this is an issue in actual builds and game play. If you check any endgame build for pve, all condi builds build Viper, all power builds build berserker (with some assassin gear depending on class). This is not affected by armor weight. The same applies to WvW where the sets differ to usually incorporate as much toughness as possible depending on the range you play (frontline, mid- or backline).

    You are talking pure theory which is not actually true in game.

    I'm asking for specific examples where a light armor class will specifically build inferior gear into their build.

    Your viper build what class? As 2 of the 3 light armor classes have high to mid hp i would not call them glassy that the problem and your unable to see the problem other classes that you may not be playing because your set up works well for you.

    Something underline of a problem with GW2 community it is the nice community but more then often if there build and set up for the class they like is good every thing else is ok in the game with out any though to classes who are at a big disavaged. Its selfishnessism and if its showing it self in a video game that is know for a nice community there not much hope any where else.

    And you know well and every one else on the forms what i am talking about but no one can say it with out these ideals and though getting thown into the shadow realm of these forms.

    Also these are general forms lets keep it that way. Its a question of hp / def having variation but nothing else and how in time elite spec. are braking down this type of balancing. Having mid to high def / hp classes with strong ranged dmg is broken. Having low def/hp classes to be melee is broken as they cant pull if off in any real combat.

    This is not just a question of armor types this is a question of hp types as hp is way more important.

    https://snowcrows.com/
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/elementalist/weaver/condition/ - condi elementalist, full viper
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/thief/daredevil/condition/ - condi thief, full viper
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/guardian/firebrand/condition/ - condi firebrand, full viper

    All 3 low hitpoint classes running their pve condi builds, all of them full viper.

    Nobody uses passive defenses in endgame pve, it's a waste of stats.

    Good for them it dose not make it balance and shows the problem with elite spec and how they are modding the old points of balances.

    Why dose the ele run earth line when it would get more out of arcain or even air for dmg.

    Also pve has brain dead mobs often are just a joke of real need for balancing. Though its still important and if the mobs are not attking you at all where you need no def then the game type is to easy.

    First off, the elementalist runs earth because the the total damage is higher than with arcain, you would know this if you understood what these builds are for = maximum damage output possible per class.

    The pve brain dead mobs get nullified with active defenses, not passive ones, but yes they pose little threat on any class if you know what you do. Then again most attacks from raid bosses wipe you off the face of the earth if you eat them face first no matter your hitpoint pool.

    Thus we are at my original question, which game mode are we talking about? I assume now it's WvW. Now I could link you some metabattle builds and once again show that people actually build the same gear sets if they desire the same result no matter the base hitpoint pool with only some minor personal differences. Then I would comment on how WvW is a numbers game, how all 3 light armor classes have insane baseline survival skills built into their kit and that positioning is king in WvW and once again survival is dependent on active defenses.

    Is the build better then other classes part of the talk we are having as you have the full glass class of ele vs say the not so class dardevil and FB who is doing better dmg?

    Not sure what you are getting at, all classes use the same gear. The resulting disparity in damage thus will be due to balance of skills, not hitpoint pools or armor. Go check the benchmarks to see class performance disparity but again, this is with maximum damage gear. No class will outperform another suddenly when taking Less damage gear.

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Every one should be taking dmg and there should be a minim of living though hits and not just a one shot game play as that not good for balancing. It comply destroy the argument that some one else brings up that making power / precision different from class to class making the game all about glass as it seems to be all about going all in glass. If any thing its pve that holding this game back if what your saying is true and pve has such stunted effect on classes.

    PvE has remained the same ever since release. It was always a pure damage race and defensive stats have been useless ever since. This has to do with active mitigation and the active combat system and not with hitpoint pools or armor values.

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Old pve was every one doing dmg not just the dps and you had no tanks and healing support. Blasting water and team work was the only real support back then now its very diffrent and that due to elite spec.

    True, and now with elite specialisations it's the same unless you are a support and build healing power. Toughness stacking was always a thing in WvW. Hence why everyone uses maximum damage gear in PvE.

    Tanks are only a thing in raids and are currently 99% of the time chronos due to their class build and abilities. No high hitpoint class is even remotely used as tank for example. So once again, kinda not supporting your thesis here.

    The game is balanced arone older set up with its hp / def but elite spec are not part of this balanced that is my point i am trying to make over and over.

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    For wvw is all about living though that one shot from rev about 12k to 17k dmg and all about trying to one shot that rev who has higher hp and def then the other ranged classes. The cost of being able to live though these hits of dmg as well as utility given up. At the same time you must be able to live though your owns skills vs up the passive effects of classes mostly the high hp / def classes have.

    So me a real meta build out side of FB, scorge, rev, and spell braker all of watch are higher def classes (def or hp mostly hp but for FB who will run all in def gear making up for any lost of hp with out giving up any type of real support).

    Go look them up yourself. Most run high toughness if they are Frontline with varying degrees of toughness towards the back line.

    There are no frontline builds because of rev and scorge being able to out put so much dmg and to be as tankly as they are. There ranged classes and the classes who support though ranged classes.

    What? Okay whatever, not going to get into this discussion. You could have just said you are clueless about WvW.

    Hehe i very much understand the fine points of wvw. The game type is full on ranged the only thing melee doing is going in and dropping one skill and getting out less of a melee more of a one trick.

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    For Spvp its about being able to kill ppl with out being too glassly. Offten you just find classes simply are able to run with the mid to high def / hp. The lower hp / def classes cant build high enofe dmg to kill them with out being a simple drain on there team.

    Thief while being stealthed is glassy? Have you ever fought a good elementalists or engineer (medium hitpoints) 1on1? Tell me how well that fight went with the Firebrand who is getting aegis left an right.

    A stealth thf not caping points. Ele is only tankly though its gear and you cant build glassly out side of the weaver and that only due to power creep of weaver vs tempest vs core. Eng has high passive def its part of the problem.

    Engineer is medium armor and medium hitpoint pool with a ton of utility (which is their survival), elementalists are tanky due to proper blasting and defensive utilities, Thief has the engage and disengage advantage thanks to stealth while being highly mobile with dodges.

    Come on man, this is getting silly.

    Passive tanklyness is far more important in spvp because of the locked in combos you cant build as easily tanklyness to make up for the lost. Ele is only tankly because they build tankly and they are getting x2 from there healing power barriers and healing at the same time. Tempest and core ele are comply out in the cold because of this.

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Go check the spvp forums for which classes made the "please nerf now" cycle of the week. Here's a hint: it hasn't been high hitpoint classes in a while, and even there all complaints are centered around classes active abilities in general.

    Its just the same classes over and over the cycle your tricking your self with is ppl willingness to talk about it.

    It was Mirage and Thief, now it's Thief and engineer. Try again.

    Same classes from years back just diffrent eliet spec. befor they where nerfed and new verison where added. Not realy part of this talk but its worth noting that 2 of the 3 classes are mid hp if they where low hp as well how much more balanced they would be?

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    That is where the game is today if your not the right class your hated and kicked you CANT play the game the way you want and THIS hp / def variation is part of the problem. There no amount of being nice and letting token classes join with you will help this too and you cant just simply ignore it as one of the forgotten classes. This is caused by anet and can only be fixed by anet.

    This has NOTHING to do with armor or hitpoint pools.

    This is all about peak performance damage wise in pve and most useful active defensive abilities while staying as offensive as possible in competative modes.

    All based on class traits, skills and abilities.

    All that on the gear builds that are all on base hp / def.

    You have yet to show that classes use different gear depending on hitpoint pools, something which you have NOT yet actually in any way proven.

    Also, not true.

    Different classes have different hp but dont have different power. Look at any build web page its an easy way to get an ideal of how much of a differences there is and how you must build to make up for these differences. That not how balancing works your simply just trying to re-balances the game as a player though gear at that point and its never going to work out.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • IndigoSundown.5419IndigoSundown.5419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:

    Different classes have different hp but dont have different power. Look at any build web page its an easy way to get an ideal of how much of a differences there is and how you must build to make up for these differences. That not how balancing works your simply just trying to re-balances the game as a player though gear at that point and its never going to work out.

    There is much more to a build's effectiveness than just HP, Armor and Power. Different profession mechanics, traits, utilities, weapon skills and, perhaps most importantly, weapon coefficients, make a big difference. By your reasoning, Warriors should be kings of the game, as they have the best health pool and the best Defense stat from gear. However, if you look at meta builds, they are either Bannerslaves in instanced PvE or Spellbreaker Boon Strippers in PvP/WvW. If they were top of the heap, you'd see more variety in Warrior builds at the pinnacle of the game's meta.

    The way balance seems to work in GW2 is that stats and base health/armor weight are static factors. That still leaves everything else as dynamic factors that the devs change as they see fit. That suggests that the devs do not see your point. To prove your point to where they might notice, you would need a lot more ammunition than you've provided.

    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- Santayana

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    Different classes have different hp but dont have different power. Look at any build web page its an easy way to get an ideal of how much of a differences there is and how you must build to make up for these differences. That not how balancing works your simply just trying to re-balances the game as a player though gear at that point and its never going to work out.

    There is much more to a build's effectiveness than just HP, Armor and Power. Different profession mechanics, traits, utilities, weapon skills and, perhaps most importantly, weapon coefficients, make a big difference. By your reasoning, Warriors should be kings of the game, as they have the best health pool and the best Defense stat from gear. However, if you look at meta builds, they are either Bannerslaves in instanced PvE or Spellbreaker Boon Strippers in PvP/WvW. If they were top of the heap, you'd see more variety in Warrior builds at the pinnacle of the game's meta.

    The way balance seems to work in GW2 is that stats and base health/armor weight are static factors. That still leaves everything else as dynamic factors that the devs change as they see fit. That suggests that the devs do not see your point. To prove your point to where they might notice, you would need a lot more ammunition than you've provided.

    Necro is the king of the game and rev too. Its not about having the most hp / def its about having enofe hp / def with out needing to give up power. Living at 100 hp is no different then living at 5 hp your still alive.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2018

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    Different classes have different hp but dont have different power. Look at any build web page its an easy way to get an ideal of how much of a differences there is and how you must build to make up for these differences. That not how balancing works your simply just trying to re-balances the game as a player though gear at that point and its never going to work out.

    There is much more to a build's effectiveness than just HP, Armor and Power. Different profession mechanics, traits, utilities, weapon skills and, perhaps most importantly, weapon coefficients, make a big difference. By your reasoning, Warriors should be kings of the game, as they have the best health pool and the best Defense stat from gear. However, if you look at meta builds, they are either Bannerslaves in instanced PvE or Spellbreaker Boon Strippers in PvP/WvW. If they were top of the heap, you'd see more variety in Warrior builds at the pinnacle of the game's meta.

    The way balance seems to work in GW2 is that stats and base health/armor weight are static factors. That still leaves everything else as dynamic factors that the devs change as they see fit. That suggests that the devs do not see your point. To prove your point to where they might notice, you would need a lot more ammunition than you've provided.

    Necro is the king of the game and rev too. Its not about having the most hp / def its about having enofe hp / def with out needing to give up power. Living at 100 hp is no different then living at 5 hp your still alive.

    Lol really, in which game modes?

    Better tell necro and revenant this on the forums, the majority seem to disagree.

    Also Revenant is medium hitpoints, the class you meant was warrior.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    Different classes have different hp but dont have different power. Look at any build web page its an easy way to get an ideal of how much of a differences there is and how you must build to make up for these differences. That not how balancing works your simply just trying to re-balances the game as a player though gear at that point and its never going to work out.

    There is much more to a build's effectiveness than just HP, Armor and Power. Different profession mechanics, traits, utilities, weapon skills and, perhaps most importantly, weapon coefficients, make a big difference. By your reasoning, Warriors should be kings of the game, as they have the best health pool and the best Defense stat from gear. However, if you look at meta builds, they are either Bannerslaves in instanced PvE or Spellbreaker Boon Strippers in PvP/WvW. If they were top of the heap, you'd see more variety in Warrior builds at the pinnacle of the game's meta.

    The way balance seems to work in GW2 is that stats and base health/armor weight are static factors. That still leaves everything else as dynamic factors that the devs change as they see fit. That suggests that the devs do not see your point. To prove your point to where they might notice, you would need a lot more ammunition than you've provided.

    Necro is the king of the game and rev too. Its not about having the most hp / def its about having enofe hp / def with out needing to give up power. Living at 100 hp is no different then living at 5 hp your still alive.

    Lol really, in which game modes?

    Better tell necro and revenant this on the forums, the majority seem to disagree.

    Also Revenant is medium hitpoints, the class you meant was warrior.

    Every one thinks there classes they are playing is not broken lol so always. Just enofe hp and def is what you need. Rev doing high dmg from from far away with mid armor and high def is a problem. As for necro the issues is high hp doing high dmg.

    Give rev low hp and see how they play give necro lower hp see how they play. The power is the same as well as the precision so it should not effect balancing at all and THAT is the problem. If pve and your never getting hit the hp / def should not mean a thing in your point of view its only pvp where these things are important.

    Its kind of silly to try to invalidate every thing in pvp because of pve i know a lot of ppl try to make this type of argument.

    As for warrior its not a problem yet but once they get a real dmg elite spec at a ranged it will be a big problem so these things should be looked at before it becomes a balancing nightmare.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Airdive.2613Airdive.2613 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Give rev low hp and see how they play give necro lower hp see how they play.

    Now you are literally saying the professions are balanced with different health pools and armor classes in mind. If there are differences, they are by design.
    Also, there's no need to have different power levels at all. Every individual weapon's damage modifiers are already different. Why would you care about your tanky opponent having the same power as you if it turns out your actual damage is 0.7 of your power and your enemy's is 0.4 of theirs?

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    Different classes have different hp but dont have different power. Look at any build web page its an easy way to get an ideal of how much of a differences there is and how you must build to make up for these differences. That not how balancing works your simply just trying to re-balances the game as a player though gear at that point and its never going to work out.

    There is much more to a build's effectiveness than just HP, Armor and Power. Different profession mechanics, traits, utilities, weapon skills and, perhaps most importantly, weapon coefficients, make a big difference. By your reasoning, Warriors should be kings of the game, as they have the best health pool and the best Defense stat from gear. However, if you look at meta builds, they are either Bannerslaves in instanced PvE or Spellbreaker Boon Strippers in PvP/WvW. If they were top of the heap, you'd see more variety in Warrior builds at the pinnacle of the game's meta.

    The way balance seems to work in GW2 is that stats and base health/armor weight are static factors. That still leaves everything else as dynamic factors that the devs change as they see fit. That suggests that the devs do not see your point. To prove your point to where they might notice, you would need a lot more ammunition than you've provided.

    Necro is the king of the game and rev too. Its not about having the most hp / def its about having enofe hp / def with out needing to give up power. Living at 100 hp is no different then living at 5 hp your still alive.

    Lol really, in which game modes?

    Better tell necro and revenant this on the forums, the majority seem to disagree.

    Also Revenant is medium hitpoints, the class you meant was warrior.

    Every one thinks there classes they are playing is not broken lol so always. Just enofe hp and def is what you need. Rev doing high dmg from from far away with mid armor and high def is a problem. As for necro the issues is high hp doing high dmg.

    Give rev low hp and see how they play give necro lower hp see how they play. The power is the same as well as the precision so it should not effect balancing at all and THAT is the problem. If pve and your never getting hit the hp / def should not mean a thing in your point of view its only pvp where these things are important.

    Its kind of silly to try to invalidate every thing in pvp because of pve i know a lot of ppl try to make this type of argument.

    As for warrior its not a problem yet but once they get a real dmg elite spec at a ranged it will be a big problem so these things should be looked at before it becomes a balancing nightmare.

    Mate honestly, please get some experience in the game. The amount of nonsense you are bringing is cringe worthy.

    Warrior is probably the closest class to being overpowered or always desired in all game modes over an extended period of time.

    Warrior as of now and ever since Hot has had 2, now 1, guaranteed raid spots due to banners. They have excellent condition and power damage builds.

    Spellbreaker in WvW was completely overpowered and even after severe nerfs is still a very strong build. All unrelated to the warriors high hitpoint pool or armor.

    What is evident so far, you have none or near no experience in:

    • raids
    • fractals
    • WvW

    Just let it be. You are just making yourself look silly at this point to any player with experience in any of these game modes.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2018

    @Airdive.2613 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Give rev low hp and see how they play give necro lower hp see how they play.

    Now you are literally saying the professions are balanced with different health pools and armor classes in mind. If there are differences, they are by design.
    Also, there's no need to have different power levels at all. Every individual weapon's damage modifiers are already different. Why would you care about your tanky opponent having the same power as you if it turns out your actual damage is 0.7 of your power and your enemy's is 0.4 of theirs?

    I am saying they are not balanced as is because of there hp and there ability to attk at a ranged. If you cut there hp they will be more balanced for there ranged and dmg. Modifiers will be normalized all dmg will its just a factor of time.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    Different classes have different hp but dont have different power. Look at any build web page its an easy way to get an ideal of how much of a differences there is and how you must build to make up for these differences. That not how balancing works your simply just trying to re-balances the game as a player though gear at that point and its never going to work out.

    There is much more to a build's effectiveness than just HP, Armor and Power. Different profession mechanics, traits, utilities, weapon skills and, perhaps most importantly, weapon coefficients, make a big difference. By your reasoning, Warriors should be kings of the game, as they have the best health pool and the best Defense stat from gear. However, if you look at meta builds, they are either Bannerslaves in instanced PvE or Spellbreaker Boon Strippers in PvP/WvW. If they were top of the heap, you'd see more variety in Warrior builds at the pinnacle of the game's meta.

    The way balance seems to work in GW2 is that stats and base health/armor weight are static factors. That still leaves everything else as dynamic factors that the devs change as they see fit. That suggests that the devs do not see your point. To prove your point to where they might notice, you would need a lot more ammunition than you've provided.

    Necro is the king of the game and rev too. Its not about having the most hp / def its about having enofe hp / def with out needing to give up power. Living at 100 hp is no different then living at 5 hp your still alive.

    Lol really, in which game modes?

    Better tell necro and revenant this on the forums, the majority seem to disagree.

    Also Revenant is medium hitpoints, the class you meant was warrior.

    Every one thinks there classes they are playing is not broken lol so always. Just enofe hp and def is what you need. Rev doing high dmg from from far away with mid armor and high def is a problem. As for necro the issues is high hp doing high dmg.

    Give rev low hp and see how they play give necro lower hp see how they play. The power is the same as well as the precision so it should not effect balancing at all and THAT is the problem. If pve and your never getting hit the hp / def should not mean a thing in your point of view its only pvp where these things are important.

    Its kind of silly to try to invalidate every thing in pvp because of pve i know a lot of ppl try to make this type of argument.

    As for warrior its not a problem yet but once they get a real dmg elite spec at a ranged it will be a big problem so these things should be looked at before it becomes a balancing nightmare.

    Mate honestly, please get some experience in the game. The amount of nonsense you are bringing is cringe worthy.

    Warrior is probably the closest class to being overpowered or always desired in all game modes over an extended period of time.

    Warrior as of now and ever since Hot has had 2, now 1, guaranteed raid spots due to banners. They have excellent condition and power damage builds.

    Spellbreaker in WvW was completely overpowered and even after severe nerfs is still a very strong build. All unrelated to the warriors high hitpoint pool or armor.

    What is evident so far, you have none or near no experience in:

    • raids
    • fractals
    • WvW

    Just let it be. You are just making yourself look silly at this point to any player with experience in any of these game modes.

    If you must know wvw and "old" pve.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Airdive.2613 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Give rev low hp and see how they play give necro lower hp see how they play.

    Now you are literally saying the professions are balanced with different health pools and armor classes in mind. If there are differences, they are by design.
    Also, there's no need to have different power levels at all. Every individual weapon's damage modifiers are already different. Why would you care about your tanky opponent having the same power as you if it turns out your actual damage is 0.7 of your power and your enemy's is 0.4 of theirs?

    I am saying they are not balanced as is because of there hp and there ability to attk at a ranged. If you cut there hp they will be more balanced for there ranged and dmg. Modifiers will be normalized all dmg will its just a factor of time.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    Different classes have different hp but dont have different power. Look at any build web page its an easy way to get an ideal of how much of a differences there is and how you must build to make up for these differences. That not how balancing works your simply just trying to re-balances the game as a player though gear at that point and its never going to work out.

    There is much more to a build's effectiveness than just HP, Armor and Power. Different profession mechanics, traits, utilities, weapon skills and, perhaps most importantly, weapon coefficients, make a big difference. By your reasoning, Warriors should be kings of the game, as they have the best health pool and the best Defense stat from gear. However, if you look at meta builds, they are either Bannerslaves in instanced PvE or Spellbreaker Boon Strippers in PvP/WvW. If they were top of the heap, you'd see more variety in Warrior builds at the pinnacle of the game's meta.

    The way balance seems to work in GW2 is that stats and base health/armor weight are static factors. That still leaves everything else as dynamic factors that the devs change as they see fit. That suggests that the devs do not see your point. To prove your point to where they might notice, you would need a lot more ammunition than you've provided.

    Necro is the king of the game and rev too. Its not about having the most hp / def its about having enofe hp / def with out needing to give up power. Living at 100 hp is no different then living at 5 hp your still alive.

    Lol really, in which game modes?

    Better tell necro and revenant this on the forums, the majority seem to disagree.

    Also Revenant is medium hitpoints, the class you meant was warrior.

    Every one thinks there classes they are playing is not broken lol so always. Just enofe hp and def is what you need. Rev doing high dmg from from far away with mid armor and high def is a problem. As for necro the issues is high hp doing high dmg.

    Give rev low hp and see how they play give necro lower hp see how they play. The power is the same as well as the precision so it should not effect balancing at all and THAT is the problem. If pve and your never getting hit the hp / def should not mean a thing in your point of view its only pvp where these things are important.

    Its kind of silly to try to invalidate every thing in pvp because of pve i know a lot of ppl try to make this type of argument.

    As for warrior its not a problem yet but once they get a real dmg elite spec at a ranged it will be a big problem so these things should be looked at before it becomes a balancing nightmare.

    Mate honestly, please get some experience in the game. The amount of nonsense you are bringing is cringe worthy.

    Warrior is probably the closest class to being overpowered or always desired in all game modes over an extended period of time.

    Warrior as of now and ever since Hot has had 2, now 1, guaranteed raid spots due to banners. They have excellent condition and power damage builds.

    Spellbreaker in WvW was completely overpowered and even after severe nerfs is still a very strong build. All unrelated to the warriors high hitpoint pool or armor.

    What is evident so far, you have none or near no experience in:

    • raids
    • fractals
    • WvW

    Just let it be. You are just making yourself look silly at this point to any player with experience in any of these game modes.

    If you must know wvw and "old" pve.

    So you know that during vanilla 4xwarrior and 1 Mesmer was meta for dungeons. Necro was absolutely shunned in all pve content.

    WvW was Guardians first with thief's and warriors roaming.

    So what are you talking about necro and revenant being king's?

    Revenant was semi desired in WvW right after HoT beore their Hammer was nerfed shortly after, that was a long time ago. Necro has been strong in WvW due to it's range condi pressure and only condi builds in vanilla (and condi requiring less stats for damage allowing for toughness easier to get splashed in). With Scourge Aoe taking over in PoF.

    None of those things were influenced by hitpoint pools or armor in any major way.

    You are way out of touch with the game.

    These things are minor issues and have near no effect on gear used currently and in the past.

  • Airdive.2613Airdive.2613 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Airdive.2613 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Give rev low hp and see how they play give necro lower hp see how they play.

    Now you are literally saying the professions are balanced with different health pools and armor classes in mind. If there are differences, they are by design.
    Also, there's no need to have different power levels at all. Every individual weapon's damage modifiers are already different. Why would you care about your tanky opponent having the same power as you if it turns out your actual damage is 0.7 of your power and your enemy's is 0.4 of theirs?

    I am saying they are not balanced as is because of there hp and there ability to attk at a ranged. If you cut there hp they will be more balanced for there ranged and dmg. Modifiers will be normalized all dmg will its just a factor of time.

    Are you seriously trying to imply necromancers and warriors (highest health pools) have strong ranged attacks right now?

    The health and armor difference is there to define professions' resilience to either power or condition damage types. It has nothing to do with the damage in any way, it rather defines interaction with the same profession's active defenses (whether you are better at facetanking, self-healing or disengaging).

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2018

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Airdive.2613 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Give rev low hp and see how they play give necro lower hp see how they play.

    Now you are literally saying the professions are balanced with different health pools and armor classes in mind. If there are differences, they are by design.
    Also, there's no need to have different power levels at all. Every individual weapon's damage modifiers are already different. Why would you care about your tanky opponent having the same power as you if it turns out your actual damage is 0.7 of your power and your enemy's is 0.4 of theirs?

    I am saying they are not balanced as is because of there hp and there ability to attk at a ranged. If you cut there hp they will be more balanced for there ranged and dmg. Modifiers will be normalized all dmg will its just a factor of time.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    Different classes have different hp but dont have different power. Look at any build web page its an easy way to get an ideal of how much of a differences there is and how you must build to make up for these differences. That not how balancing works your simply just trying to re-balances the game as a player though gear at that point and its never going to work out.

    There is much more to a build's effectiveness than just HP, Armor and Power. Different profession mechanics, traits, utilities, weapon skills and, perhaps most importantly, weapon coefficients, make a big difference. By your reasoning, Warriors should be kings of the game, as they have the best health pool and the best Defense stat from gear. However, if you look at meta builds, they are either Bannerslaves in instanced PvE or Spellbreaker Boon Strippers in PvP/WvW. If they were top of the heap, you'd see more variety in Warrior builds at the pinnacle of the game's meta.

    The way balance seems to work in GW2 is that stats and base health/armor weight are static factors. That still leaves everything else as dynamic factors that the devs change as they see fit. That suggests that the devs do not see your point. To prove your point to where they might notice, you would need a lot more ammunition than you've provided.

    Necro is the king of the game and rev too. Its not about having the most hp / def its about having enofe hp / def with out needing to give up power. Living at 100 hp is no different then living at 5 hp your still alive.

    Lol really, in which game modes?

    Better tell necro and revenant this on the forums, the majority seem to disagree.

    Also Revenant is medium hitpoints, the class you meant was warrior.

    Every one thinks there classes they are playing is not broken lol so always. Just enofe hp and def is what you need. Rev doing high dmg from from far away with mid armor and high def is a problem. As for necro the issues is high hp doing high dmg.

    Give rev low hp and see how they play give necro lower hp see how they play. The power is the same as well as the precision so it should not effect balancing at all and THAT is the problem. If pve and your never getting hit the hp / def should not mean a thing in your point of view its only pvp where these things are important.

    Its kind of silly to try to invalidate every thing in pvp because of pve i know a lot of ppl try to make this type of argument.

    As for warrior its not a problem yet but once they get a real dmg elite spec at a ranged it will be a big problem so these things should be looked at before it becomes a balancing nightmare.

    Mate honestly, please get some experience in the game. The amount of nonsense you are bringing is cringe worthy.

    Warrior is probably the closest class to being overpowered or always desired in all game modes over an extended period of time.

    Warrior as of now and ever since Hot has had 2, now 1, guaranteed raid spots due to banners. They have excellent condition and power damage builds.

    Spellbreaker in WvW was completely overpowered and even after severe nerfs is still a very strong build. All unrelated to the warriors high hitpoint pool or armor.

    What is evident so far, you have none or near no experience in:

    • raids
    • fractals
    • WvW

    Just let it be. You are just making yourself look silly at this point to any player with experience in any of these game modes.

    If you must know wvw and "old" pve.

    So you know that during vanilla 4xwarrior and 1 Mesmer was meta for dungeons. Necro was absolutely shunned in all pve content.

    WvW was Guardians first with thief's and warriors roaming.

    So what are you talking about necro and revenant being king's?

    Revenant was semi desired in WvW right after HoT beore their Hammer was nerfed shortly after, that was a long time ago. Necro has been strong in WvW due to it's range condi pressure and only condi builds in vanilla (and condi requiring less stats for damage allowing for toughness easier to get splashed in). With Scourge Aoe taking over in PoF.

    None of those things were influenced by hitpoint pools or armor in any major way.

    You are way out of touch with the game.

    These things are minor issues and have near no effect on gear used currently and in the past.

    Eles did it better with FG in pve.

    Stab was not an on and off swich as there was far less hard cc back then.

    Rev has the best of all worlds flexibility of skills with its ability to swap its "atuments" powerful ranged burst strong condi dmg and strong fast hits. On-top of strong boons and the hp / def to boot with out the lost of any power. Necro is strong because of its eliet spec as its still high hp that can be both a support and strong burst dmg at both melee and long ranged all that is unblockable and impossible to support vs.

    But this is not a talk about each class this is a talk about how hp / def variation with out power / precision and how this is both a problem now and a problem going forward.

    @Airdive.2613 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Airdive.2613 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Give rev low hp and see how they play give necro lower hp see how they play.

    Now you are literally saying the professions are balanced with different health pools and armor classes in mind. If there are differences, they are by design.
    Also, there's no need to have different power levels at all. Every individual weapon's damage modifiers are already different. Why would you care about your tanky opponent having the same power as you if it turns out your actual damage is 0.7 of your power and your enemy's is 0.4 of theirs?

    I am saying they are not balanced as is because of there hp and there ability to attk at a ranged. If you cut there hp they will be more balanced for there ranged and dmg. Modifiers will be normalized all dmg will its just a factor of time.

    Are you seriously trying to imply necromancers and warriors (highest health pools) have strong ranged attacks right now?

    The health and armor difference is there to define professions' resilience to either power or condition damage types. It has nothing to do with the damage in any way, it rather defines interaction with the same profession's active defenses (whether you are better at facetanking, self-healing or disengaging).

    Necromancers yes warriors not yet. Relay confused why war keeps coming up when i been talking about rev.

    Why is hp / def the only effects that are different i mean each classes use them different to some point and the same can be said each class use power / precision different as well but for some reason it dose not vary too? Its just not good to balance that way.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2018

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Airdive.2613 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Give rev low hp and see how they play give necro lower hp see how they play.

    Now you are literally saying the professions are balanced with different health pools and armor classes in mind. If there are differences, they are by design.
    Also, there's no need to have different power levels at all. Every individual weapon's damage modifiers are already different. Why would you care about your tanky opponent having the same power as you if it turns out your actual damage is 0.7 of your power and your enemy's is 0.4 of theirs?

    I am saying they are not balanced as is because of there hp and there ability to attk at a ranged. If you cut there hp they will be more balanced for there ranged and dmg. Modifiers will be normalized all dmg will its just a factor of time.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    Different classes have different hp but dont have different power. Look at any build web page its an easy way to get an ideal of how much of a differences there is and how you must build to make up for these differences. That not how balancing works your simply just trying to re-balances the game as a player though gear at that point and its never going to work out.

    There is much more to a build's effectiveness than just HP, Armor and Power. Different profession mechanics, traits, utilities, weapon skills and, perhaps most importantly, weapon coefficients, make a big difference. By your reasoning, Warriors should be kings of the game, as they have the best health pool and the best Defense stat from gear. However, if you look at meta builds, they are either Bannerslaves in instanced PvE or Spellbreaker Boon Strippers in PvP/WvW. If they were top of the heap, you'd see more variety in Warrior builds at the pinnacle of the game's meta.

    The way balance seems to work in GW2 is that stats and base health/armor weight are static factors. That still leaves everything else as dynamic factors that the devs change as they see fit. That suggests that the devs do not see your point. To prove your point to where they might notice, you would need a lot more ammunition than you've provided.

    Necro is the king of the game and rev too. Its not about having the most hp / def its about having enofe hp / def with out needing to give up power. Living at 100 hp is no different then living at 5 hp your still alive.

    Lol really, in which game modes?

    Better tell necro and revenant this on the forums, the majority seem to disagree.

    Also Revenant is medium hitpoints, the class you meant was warrior.

    Every one thinks there classes they are playing is not broken lol so always. Just enofe hp and def is what you need. Rev doing high dmg from from far away with mid armor and high def is a problem. As for necro the issues is high hp doing high dmg.

    Give rev low hp and see how they play give necro lower hp see how they play. The power is the same as well as the precision so it should not effect balancing at all and THAT is the problem. If pve and your never getting hit the hp / def should not mean a thing in your point of view its only pvp where these things are important.

    Its kind of silly to try to invalidate every thing in pvp because of pve i know a lot of ppl try to make this type of argument.

    As for warrior its not a problem yet but once they get a real dmg elite spec at a ranged it will be a big problem so these things should be looked at before it becomes a balancing nightmare.

    Mate honestly, please get some experience in the game. The amount of nonsense you are bringing is cringe worthy.

    Warrior is probably the closest class to being overpowered or always desired in all game modes over an extended period of time.

    Warrior as of now and ever since Hot has had 2, now 1, guaranteed raid spots due to banners. They have excellent condition and power damage builds.

    Spellbreaker in WvW was completely overpowered and even after severe nerfs is still a very strong build. All unrelated to the warriors high hitpoint pool or armor.

    What is evident so far, you have none or near no experience in:

    • raids
    • fractals
    • WvW

    Just let it be. You are just making yourself look silly at this point to any player with experience in any of these game modes.

    If you must know wvw and "old" pve.

    So you know that during vanilla 4xwarrior and 1 Mesmer was meta for dungeons. Necro was absolutely shunned in all pve content.

    WvW was Guardians first with thief's and warriors roaming.

    So what are you talking about necro and revenant being king's?

    Revenant was semi desired in WvW right after HoT beore their Hammer was nerfed shortly after, that was a long time ago. Necro has been strong in WvW due to it's range condi pressure and only condi builds in vanilla (and condi requiring less stats for damage allowing for toughness easier to get splashed in). With Scourge Aoe taking over in PoF.

    None of those things were influenced by hitpoint pools or armor in any major way.

    You are way out of touch with the game.

    These things are minor issues and have near no effect on gear used currently and in the past.

    Eles did it better with FG in pve.

    and how does that fit your theory that low hitpoint classes are disadvantaged?

    Ele only worked until FGS was nerfed and even until then the majority still ran 4xwarrior,even 5xwarrior towards the end.

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Stab was not an on and off swich as there was far less hard cc back then.

    Rev has the best of all worlds flexibility of skills with its ability to swap its "atuments" powerful ranged burst strong condi dmg and strong fast hits. On-top of strong boons and the hp / def to boot with out the lost of any power.

    How does this in any way support that hitpoints or armor are advantaging this class even if I was to agree (which I am not since Revenant is still a huge mess, and I mained one for 5 months post Hot)?

    This seems like a skill and class mechanic issue.

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Necro is strong because of its eliet spec as its still high hp that can be both a support and strong burst dmg at both melee and long ranged all that is unblockable and impossible to support vs.

    We were just talking about vanilla, but sure I can talk about HoT.

    Reaper needed a rework to even work in PvE because at launch Greatsword was designed as both condi and power weapon.

    Necro is designed around having a 2nd hitpoint pool, it's the central class mechanic. The class as such suffers extreme mobility issues. A huge disadvantage in WvW by the way.

    @Jski.6180 said:
    But this is not a talk about each class this is a talk about how hp / def variation with out power / precision and how this is both a problem now and a problem going forward.

    and you still fail to show how any build currently (and in the past) run in any game mode was vastly disadvantaged.

    For the xth time, it's a minor issue at best and completely outperformed by class balance and mechanics.

  • Airdive.2613Airdive.2613 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Rev has the best of all worlds flexibility of skills with its ability to swap its "atuments" powerful ranged burst strong condi dmg and strong fast hits. On-top of strong boons and the hp / def to boot with out the lost of any power.

    I have very little experience playing the revenant, but I'm somewhat surprised by your description (talking about sPvP):

    • flexibility - you only get to choose two attunements out of four "damage, condition damage, defense, healing" while one of the two is most probably an elite legend anyway;
    • flexibility - revenant's utility skills are literally fixed to the current legend and can't be adjusted;
    • powerful ranged burst - what? Do you mean slow and highly telegraphed hammer attacks?
    • hp / def to boot - what? Revenant is among the squishiest professions with little to no sustain unless it's some sort of a Ventari support, but then they have no damage so it is a huge loss of power.
  • Airdive.2613Airdive.2613 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Relay confused why war keeps coming up when i been talking about rev.

    Warriors have the highest base health alongside necromancers, which you argue gives them an edge at ranged fighting.

    Why is hp / def the only effects that are different i mean each classes use them different to some point and the same can be said each class use power / precision different as well but for some reason it dose not vary too? Its just not good to balance that way.

    Come on, not only does the damage output vary, it also varies for every individual weapon skill of every individual profession. There's just 0 need to touch the power. There are no skills in the game that would scale with health or armor, and there are all skills in the game that scale (with different coefficients) with power.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I seem to have to keep repeating my self vs 2 ppl at once so let me leave with this ideal that i keep saying.

    Hp / def class variation with out power / precision changing and its a problem now and will be a problem down the line. This needs to be fixed my suggestion is to have power / precision vary with the classes OR you standardized every things to let devs twerk the numbers as needed to make a class less op or up.

    Any thing else is just pointless nose trying to confuse the point.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2018

    @Jski.6180 said:
    I seem to have to keep repeating my self vs 2 ppl at once so let me leave with this ideal that i keep saying.

    Hp / def class variation with out power / precision changing and its a problem now and will be a problem down the line. This needs to be fixed my suggestion is to have power / precision vary with the classes OR you standardized every things to let devs twerk the numbers as needed to make a class less op or up.

    Any thing else is just pointless nose trying to confuse the point.

    High hitpoint classes do not get more precision or power, they have the same amount of gear slots, builds use the same stats and there is no advantage since NO ONE USES VITALITY.

    I have given PVE examples, I have directed you to metabattle to check for yourself for any other builds. You have brought 0 valid examples to prove your point so far.

    At this point in time your argument is nothing but noise since it is not in any way backed up by past or present in-game examples (and even the ones you mentioned were totally out of touch or incorrect). Now you can keep arguing in circles and repeating the same incorrect assumptions you have, they do not become more true with time though.

    EDIT:
    The active battle system in this game makes base hitpoints and base armor, even with the minor differences between classes, irrelavant when comapred to huge balancing factors such as: class mechanics, utility skills availability and armor stats.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    I seem to have to keep repeating my self vs 2 ppl at once so let me leave with this ideal that i keep saying.

    Hp / def class variation with out power / precision changing and its a problem now and will be a problem down the line. This needs to be fixed my suggestion is to have power / precision vary with the classes OR you standardized every things to let devs twerk the numbers as needed to make a class less op or up.

    Any thing else is just pointless nose trying to confuse the point.

    High hitpoint classes do not get more precision or power, they have the same amount of gear slots, builds use the same stats and there is no advantage since NO ONE USES VITALITY.

    I have given PVE examples, I have directed you to metabattle to check for yourself for any other builds. You have brought 0 examples to prove your point.

    At this point in time your argument is nothing but noise since it is not in any way backed up by past or present in-game examples (and even the ones you mentioned were totally out of touch or incorrect).

    They have more hp by your own words how is that not an advantage?

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    I seem to have to keep repeating my self vs 2 ppl at once so let me leave with this ideal that i keep saying.

    Hp / def class variation with out power / precision changing and its a problem now and will be a problem down the line. This needs to be fixed my suggestion is to have power / precision vary with the classes OR you standardized every things to let devs twerk the numbers as needed to make a class less op or up.

    Any thing else is just pointless nose trying to confuse the point.

    High hitpoint classes do not get more precision or power, they have the same amount of gear slots, builds use the same stats and there is no advantage since NO ONE USES VITALITY.

    I have given PVE examples, I have directed you to metabattle to check for yourself for any other builds. You have brought 0 examples to prove your point.

    At this point in time your argument is nothing but noise since it is not in any way backed up by past or present in-game examples (and even the ones you mentioned were totally out of touch or incorrect).

    They have more hp by your own words how is that not an advantage?

    I never said it is no advantage, I've always said it is a not significant enough advantage and completely overshadowed by balance in other areas. Big difference.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2018

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    I seem to have to keep repeating my self vs 2 ppl at once so let me leave with this ideal that i keep saying.

    Hp / def class variation with out power / precision changing and its a problem now and will be a problem down the line. This needs to be fixed my suggestion is to have power / precision vary with the classes OR you standardized every things to let devs twerk the numbers as needed to make a class less op or up.

    Any thing else is just pointless nose trying to confuse the point.

    High hitpoint classes do not get more precision or power, they have the same amount of gear slots, builds use the same stats and there is no advantage since NO ONE USES VITALITY.

    I have given PVE examples, I have directed you to metabattle to check for yourself for any other builds. You have brought 0 examples to prove your point.

    At this point in time your argument is nothing but noise since it is not in any way backed up by past or present in-game examples (and even the ones you mentioned were totally out of touch or incorrect).

    They have more hp by your own words how is that not an advantage?

    I never said it is no advantage, I've always said it is a not significant enough advantage and completely overshadowed by balance in other areas. Big difference.

    It is and as they add in more elite spec it will be more of a problem.

    If it was not a big advantage then putting every one at the same hp should not be a problem to balance and would make the game a lot easier to balance.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2018

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    I seem to have to keep repeating my self vs 2 ppl at once so let me leave with this ideal that i keep saying.

    Hp / def class variation with out power / precision changing and its a problem now and will be a problem down the line. This needs to be fixed my suggestion is to have power / precision vary with the classes OR you standardized every things to let devs twerk the numbers as needed to make a class less op or up.

    Any thing else is just pointless nose trying to confuse the point.

    High hitpoint classes do not get more precision or power, they have the same amount of gear slots, builds use the same stats and there is no advantage since NO ONE USES VITALITY.

    I have given PVE examples, I have directed you to metabattle to check for yourself for any other builds. You have brought 0 examples to prove your point.

    At this point in time your argument is nothing but noise since it is not in any way backed up by past or present in-game examples (and even the ones you mentioned were totally out of touch or incorrect).

    They have more hp by your own words how is that not an advantage?

    I never said it is no advantage, I've always said it is a not significant enough advantage and completely overshadowed by balance in other areas. Big difference.

    It is and as they add in more elite spec it will be more of a problem.

    That is your opinion which you have not backed up yet.

    You can have your opinion, other people have theirs, some of them disagreed with your opinion on this issue.

    So far that is all you've provided, an opinion.

    EDIT:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    If it was not a big advantage then putting every one at the same hp should not be a problem to balance and would make the game a lot easier to balance.

    Except that changing the status quo takes work. If the status quo is fine, no work has to be put in.

    Obviously since Arenanet have not yet seen the need to make changes to the hitpoint pools they either feel as though they have it under control or they don't see a need to change this.

    You have not yet shown that it is a big advantage. Let's not throw adjectives in to argue something which you have not yet proven. It's a minor advantage at best if not viewed with class mechanics and abilities together.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2018

    @Jski.6180 said:
    The prove is that we have a lot of passive dmg effects in gw2 retaliation and on hit condis eat dps classes alive and its only hp that stops this.

    It's not HP pool sizes that let you survive (or not) retaliation. It's your rate of attack. It's not low hps that kill DHs and eles on retal - it's traps and meteor shower. As another example, flamethrower engis and rapid fire rangers are going to go down faster to retal than staff daredevils.

    In short, using slow but powerful attacks lets you survive retal, while using some fast multihit combos will kill you in seconds. Usually regardless of your hp pools.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    I seem to have to keep repeating my self vs 2 ppl at once so let me leave with this ideal that i keep saying.

    Hp / def class variation with out power / precision changing and its a problem now and will be a problem down the line. This needs to be fixed my suggestion is to have power / precision vary with the classes OR you standardized every things to let devs twerk the numbers as needed to make a class less op or up.

    Any thing else is just pointless nose trying to confuse the point.

    High hitpoint classes do not get more precision or power, they have the same amount of gear slots, builds use the same stats and there is no advantage since NO ONE USES VITALITY.

    I have given PVE examples, I have directed you to metabattle to check for yourself for any other builds. You have brought 0 examples to prove your point.

    At this point in time your argument is nothing but noise since it is not in any way backed up by past or present in-game examples (and even the ones you mentioned were totally out of touch or incorrect).

    They have more hp by your own words how is that not an advantage?

    I never said it is no advantage, I've always said it is a not significant enough advantage and completely overshadowed by balance in other areas. Big difference.

    It is and as they add in more elite spec it will be more of a problem.

    That is your opinion which you have not backed up yet.

    You can have your opinion, other people have theirs, some of them disagreed with your opinion on this issue.

    So far that is all you've provided, an opinion.

    EDIT:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    If it was not a big advantage then putting every one at the same hp should not be a problem to balance and would make the game a lot easier to balance.

    Except that changing the status quo takes work. If the status quo is fine, no work has to be put in.

    Obviously since Arenanet have not yet seen the need to make changes to the hitpoint pools they either feel as though they have it under control or they don't see a need to change this.

    You have not yet shown that it is a big advantage. Let's not throw adjectives in to argue something which you have not yet proven. It's a minor advantage at best if not viewed with class mechanics and abilities together.

    Do you think they will not add in elite spec that are ranged dmg aimed for tankly classes? Elite specs dont changes your hp.

    Your views on it seem very shorted sighted and the current classes are not balanced or they would of stopped updated and we just had a banace update and it sounds like we are getting another small one soon.

    Most of the melee aimed elite spec got high tanking effect and added vit to be able to go in to melee but the eleit spec that added in ranged did not lose hp unless you think they will add in a real cost to running an elite spec down the line. I am not agned that ideal seeing a class lose a wepon skill set and changing hp / def depending on what there new elite spec will do.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2018

    Everyone please take a breath :)

    It's worth revisiting damage coefficients, as OP's concern is how vitality differs yet power/precision/ferocity doesn't. It's a fair conclusion, but there's more to it than meets the eye.

    Let's start with the 3 low healthpool classes; Ele, Thief and Guardian. Anyone remember the outcry when meteorshower accidentally got buffed? How Dragonhunter had to receive nerf after nerf since it's release because it was too strong? Even the complaints about thief, now with Deadeye and the "oneshot" mechanic becoming a thing? What do all these have in common? They all have easy access to high damage coefficient skills.

    The way this works, is the higher your coefficient, the less the opponents armor matter (and therefore it eats away on their vitality instead). This is why these classes can burst.

    Compare it to mesmer and ranger, they need multiple hits in a short amount of time to build up their damage, having a harder time dealing with their opponents armor value. Others, like warrior, is all about outsustaining and landing the big hits which all have huge tells coupled with long cast times. Condi is condi, it's always been about landing the important hits and bait out cleanses.

    So even though the low hp classes don't have extra base stats in power/precision/ferocity, their access to high damage coefficients allow them to hit harder with their attacks than f.ex heavier armor classes can. How much harder? A good example is to compare a 1.5 coefficient with a 1.0. What this means, is that your power stat contributes 50% more to your damage - simple as that. This means you get more value out of critical hits, so in a sense you "debuff" the opponents armor value. So even if these classes choose to spec into some defensive gear, they still perform on par with every other dps spec - and here's the important bit - if the attacks land. Of course going anything more tanky than marauder/demolisher makes you lose the coefficient advantage, but this is the reason zerker geared professions with low hp have the highest spikes in the game.

    At the same time every weapon type have their own damage range, but it's a mixed bag and for every expansion every profession get access to a new one so it doesn't really matter.

    At this point I want to illustrate exactly how much gear matters.
    Let's use a thief's backstab as an example, zerker amulet with no rune. He crits.
    The person being hit is a zerker ele, no rune.

    Damage done: 5775
    This is 49,6% of his hp

    Now lets gear our ele with the outdated soldier amulet.

    Damage done: 3932
    This is now 19% of his hp

    So even gearing for the tankiest possible, it simply requires 2,5 extra hits to kill you than if you ran the glassiest there is - which is why the number of connected hits remains the biggest factor when it comes to surviving a fight. The defensive stats scale incredibly well with several opponents though, causing it to often be opted for in the competitive modes.

  • Airdive.2613Airdive.2613 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:
    I seem to have to keep repeating my self vs 2 ppl at once so let me leave with this ideal that i keep saying.

    Hp / def class variation with out power / precision changing and its a problem now and will be a problem down the line. This needs to be fixed my suggestion is to have power / precision vary with the classes OR you standardized every things to let devs twerk the numbers as needed to make a class less op or up.

    Any thing else is just pointless nose trying to confuse the point.

    Varying power and precision is absolutely pointless for the reason stated several times now: every individual weapon skill in the game already has a different damage coefficient (scales differently with the same amount of power points) and it is impossible to have, for example, blurred frenzy or kill shot or meteor shower in your build unless you're playing mesmer, warrior, or elementalist, respectively.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Airdive.2613 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    I seem to have to keep repeating my self vs 2 ppl at once so let me leave with this ideal that i keep saying.

    Hp / def class variation with out power / precision changing and its a problem now and will be a problem down the line. This needs to be fixed my suggestion is to have power / precision vary with the classes OR you standardized every things to let devs twerk the numbers as needed to make a class less op or up.

    Any thing else is just pointless nose trying to confuse the point.

    Varying power and precision is absolutely pointless for the reason stated several times now: every individual weapon skill in the game already has a different damage coefficient (scales differently with the same amount of power points) and it is impossible to have, for example, blurred frenzy or kill shot or meteor shower in your build unless you're playing mesmer, warrior, or elementalist, respectively.

    The thing about the different skill the coefficient will keep getting changed to put each class dps on part with other classes in both pve and pvp. Its what anet has keeped doing and seem to keep at it. In the short run yes we see high spike dmg from skill but in time they become normalized but a full roll defining ones. Sadly this has nothing to do with there hp / def so we end up with classes that have good tank hp / def doing high dmg on the same lines of classes with bad tank hp / def.

    In a way i am trying to say the hp set up from class to class is not working well and should be normalized to being the same much like how power / precision is but there always the chose to have power / precision to vary as well but with a much harder to balance out come.

    At the same time coefficient only going to go as far as the skills we have now this dose not help the skills we may have down the line. One hopes a ranged dmg spec will have good coefficient but if its an high hp / def class your going to have a high dmg class with high hp / def at a ranged something that would be beyond toxic to the games balancing.

    I hope they do add in a ranged dps spec for all classes its not just to keep this type of game play from any class and we all should want this the play as you wish mind set and how fun it is to be able to do such a thing on a class you enjoy. So there needs to be balancing with this mind set.

    Your skills you pointed out have all been nerf in dmg a good bit and brought in line with others skills with out any though to hp / def of that class. Its the truth of balancing in games every one going to do the same dmg in time. Some times it takes longer.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Sadly this has nothing to do with there hp / def so we end up with classes that have good tank hp / def doing high dmg on the same lines of classes with bad tank hp / def.

    Your argument falls flat, a thief has low hp and medium armor and deal the highest dps in all game modes. Further, despite their low hp they are some of the hardest to kill too, thanks to their stealth and evades.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Sadly this has nothing to do with there hp / def so we end up with classes that have good tank hp / def doing high dmg on the same lines of classes with bad tank hp / def.

    Your argument falls flat, a thief has low hp and medium armor and deal the highest dps in all game modes. Further, despite their low hp they are some of the hardest to kill too, thanks to their stealth and evades.

    Quoted for truth.

    Obviously balance and class mechanics can completely override the advantage given by higher hitpoint pools and higher armor.

  • Airdive.2613Airdive.2613 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Airdive.2613 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    I seem to have to keep repeating my self vs 2 ppl at once so let me leave with this ideal that i keep saying.

    Hp / def class variation with out power / precision changing and its a problem now and will be a problem down the line. This needs to be fixed my suggestion is to have power / precision vary with the classes OR you standardized every things to let devs twerk the numbers as needed to make a class less op or up.

    Any thing else is just pointless nose trying to confuse the point.

    Varying power and precision is absolutely pointless for the reason stated several times now: every individual weapon skill in the game already has a different damage coefficient (scales differently with the same amount of power points) and it is impossible to have, for example, blurred frenzy or kill shot or meteor shower in your build unless you're playing mesmer, warrior, or elementalist, respectively.

    The thing about the different skill the coefficient will keep getting changed to put each class dps on part with other classes in both pve and pvp. Its what anet has keeped doing and seem to keep at it. In the short run yes we see high spike dmg from skill but in time they become normalized but a full roll defining ones. Sadly this has nothing to do with there hp / def so we end up with classes that have good tank hp / def doing high dmg on the same lines of classes with bad tank hp / def.

    In a way i am trying to say the hp set up from class to class is not working well and should be normalized to being the same much like how power / precision is but there always the chose to have power / precision to vary as well but with a much harder to balance out come.

    Well, the system is working perfectly well in my opinion. You must see the bigger picture and realize the HP and armor has no bearing on any profession's output, it is just a point in designing professions, they are already very much balanced.

    At the same time coefficient only going to go as far as the skills we have now this dose not help the skills we may have down the line. One hopes a ranged dmg spec will have good coefficient but if its an high hp / def class your going to have a high dmg class with high hp / def at a ranged something that would be beyond toxic to the games balancing.

    The skills we may have in the future will all have their own damage coefficients with every other thing considered, obviously, so I fail to see the issue.

    I hope they do add in a ranged dps spec for all classes its not just to keep this type of game play from any class and we all should want this the play as you wish mind set and how fun it is to be able to do such a thing on a class you enjoy. So there needs to be balancing with this mind set.

    You're free to "play how you want" right now, nobody is forcing you to do anything.

    Your skills you pointed out have all been nerf in dmg a good bit and brought in line with others skills with out any though to hp / def of that class. Its the truth of balancing in games every one going to do the same dmg in time. Some times it takes longer.

    The truth is pure damage only exists in a vacuum where there is no utility, no control, no blocks/evades/healing, no positioning.

    So far at least two of the lowest health professions have been doing perfectly fine - guardians and thieves are not underperforming by any means. The same goes for mesmers and necromancers - lowest armor ones.
    So, if this is a "please buff elementalist" thread, then please come out and say so. This thread has been unwarranted so far as there is currently no issue to be fixed.