Hp / def class variation with out power / precision

Right now gw2 has def class variation hp / def making some classes much more glassly the other but there is no variation on power / precision the main dmg effect.

I suggest you do away with hp / def class variation and make it a pure build effect OR you add variation to power / precision (lowest hp / def gives you highest base power / precision).This 1/2 balances they have now is not working and often lets high def classes "cheat" by letting them build more dmg aimed.

This was not a problem with the core classes as they where balances with the hp / def and dmg effect in mind but eliet spec have throw this comply out of wack where you have super glassly classes needing to go into melee ranged and doing minimal dmg at high risk and made super tankly classes able to do high dmg from long ranged doing max dmg at minimal risk. Its only going to get worst as they add in more elite spec.

I agree with your reasoning and observation, but not your solution.

This wouldn't even the playingfield at all, it would heavily favor the glasscannons. Vitality, base that is, is based around the amount of hp/second the profession can achieve. Toughness is simply there to indicate what playstyle suits the profession best, as it's the minor factor.

If we then give everyone say - 20k health - then som professions would be able to regenerate that in 5 seconds while others would barely be able to get 1k back. Furthermore then toughness becomes a direct advantage/disadvantage, instead of being offset by vitality.

Boons and their accessibility were also used to determine health pools back at the start, so I agree with you the expansions mess that up. We already agree the core game was more balanced - the easier and more logical solution would be to take another look at boons, their durations, accessability and effect.

Interesting.

Question: Do armour types actually do anything? For example, does heavy armour protect better than light?

@Scud.5067 said:Interesting.

Question: Do armour types actually do anything? For example, does heavy armour protect better than light?

To a certain extent, yes. However, a light profession with two or three (?) pieces of Knight's armor gives enough toughness to equalize the defense rating between light and heavy.

@Scud.5067 said:Interesting.

Question: Do armour types actually do anything? For example, does heavy armour protect better than light?

It's a good one :)

They do offer a % reduction on incoming power damage, with heavy armor taking around ~13% less damage (including base toughness) than light armor, and medium around about 7% less damage than light armor.

It might not seem as much, but with the addition of ferocity the difference can be felt. An easy way to think of it is in terms of vulnerability stacks - 7 stacks is enough to make your opponent drop down one armor class.

Compared to vitality, where the highest healthpools are ~39% bigger than on the lowest, and medium ~27% bigger than on the lowest, naturally vitality matters more in the way this game calculates damage.

Toughness make your opponent do less damage per point of health - which you can already see favors all the small consecutive hits. Vitality on the other hand is the go to in order to soak up those big oneshotters, as it takes way more toughness to limit the amount of total health lost, and therefore isn't as effective.

This also means there are diminishing returns, and is where the profession design really shines:

• Stacking toughness on a heavy armor class will yield less damage reduction per point than if you do it on a light armor class
• Stacking vitality on a high healthpool class will yield a higher loss of total health than it would on a low healthpool class

What this means in effect, to use PvP as an example, is that for a necro you get more value (damage reduction) out of a demolisher amulet than marauder, same goes for warrior. A guardian gets more value from marauder amulet than it does demolisher, this is also true for revenant. Thief gets more value from marauder, engi and mesmer more from demolisher. Ele will always benefit the most from marauder.

The same can be calculated for healing power on different professions, but that's another discussion. Just remember the way armor (defense + toughness) works, means a low armor class benefits more from f.ex the protection boon than a heavy armor class does, and this is reflected in boon accessability within all professions. So don't overdo it on defense, as active mitigation is what makes you survive, gear mostly allow you to survive 1 or 2 extra hits ;)

@Diak Atoli.2085 said:

@Scud.5067 said:Interesting.

Question: Do armour types actually do anything? For example, does heavy armour protect better than light?

But how much power and crit dmg do you give up for that? That the problem your asking the glass classes to give up dmg to stay alive but the tankly classes to give up nothing to do more dmg.

Hp is much more important then armor most of the time is there an vit version of knights that lets the low hp classes be on the high level of hp tanklyness? There too many combos missing to make the current system work. And most of them are missing because it makes the tankly dmg classes just that much more broken.

Its a real mess of balances and even worst as more it added in and the old is forgotten.

If ANet were to adopt a solution to the presented problem, expect that there would be additional changes to professions as a result. At the moment, low base health is balanced by: Thief/stealth, evasion and high mobility; Elementalist/damage plus healing plus defensive skills; and Guardian/lots of defensive buffs and healing.

Also, as of right now, the difference between heavy and light armor is small. Glass versions of scholar classes (light) have 967 Defense with their full Ascended whereas soldiers (heavy) have 1271. That's a difference of 304, meaning that a glass scholar's Armor core would be 1967 (967 Defense plus 1000 Toughness) and the glass soldier would have 2271 (1271 + 1000). If each receives a hit which does 10,000,000 base damage, then they would take:

Scholar: 10,000,000/1967 = 5,084Soldier: 10,000,000/2271 = 4,403

That's a difference of 681 health, and that's a fairly substantial hit, usually requiring either another player, a champion/legendary mob or an outlier in other mob classifications. That difference (the soldier is taking a bit more than 86% of the damage the scholar takes) is easily compensated for by a variety of differences between professions that have more to do with sustain or active defense than stats.

@Jski.6180 said:

@Diak Atoli.2085 said:

@Scud.5067 said:Interesting.

Question: Do armour types actually do anything? For example, does heavy armour protect better than light?

I wasn't asking anyone to do anything. I merely answered the question.

For your question: Yes. There are two vitality sets similar to Knight's gear, Marauder's and Cavalier's. Depending on your profession's ability to increase critical chance outside of precision bonuses, one may be better than the other.

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:If ANet were to adopt a solution to the presented problem, expect that there would be additional changes to professions as a result. At the moment, low base health is balanced by: Thief/stealth, evasion and high mobility; Elementalist/damage plus healing plus defensive skills; and Guardian/lots of defensive buffs and healing.

Also, as of right now, the difference between heavy and light armor is small. Glass versions of scholar classes (light) have 967 Defense with their full Ascended whereas soldiers (heavy) have 1271. That's a difference of 304, meaning that a glass scholar's Armor core would be 1967 (967 Defense plus 1000 Toughness) and the glass soldier would have 2271 (1271 + 1000). If each receives a hit which does 10,000,000 base damage, then they would take:

Scholar: 10,000,000/1967 = 5,084Soldier: 10,000,000/2271 = 4,403

That's a difference of 681 health, and that's a fairly substantial hit, usually requiring either another player, a champion/legendary mob or an outlier in other mob classifications. That difference (the soldier is taking a bit more than 86% of the damage the scholar takes) is easily compensated for by a variety of differences between professions that have more to do with sustain or active defense than stats.

For armor that true but health it is not classes have very different level of base hp with in the scholar and soldiers more so then just the armor.As for armor you give up a lot of power just to make up for the fact your not a soldier where the soldier can push dmg all the more. All though vit is way more important then armor in this game. High hp classes get to get free dmg builds where low hp classes often MUST run vit at some level or they will kill them self on passive reticulation or a random condi on hit.

(not a attk at you indigo or realty any one just an added point)

The thing is class are not there core any more and the old balancing just dose not work. We have classe with high hp and def who are doing ranged dmg on par with classes of low hp / def. We have classes who must be in melee to have an effect who have the lowest hp / def in the game. We have classes who have high ish hp who often have so many def skills that its hard to tell when you can even land hits. Every thing has high evasion mobility healing and def skill because of there elite spec. something that dose not effect there hp and def at all.

This game is not balanced at all and the way things have been updated has do nothing to help there are real problems that have not been updated from the start of the game that do not fit the current game at all. I needs to be fixed or we simply have classes better then others and classes that are a requirement to have to play the game.

@Jski.6180 said:

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:If ANet were to adopt a solution to the presented problem, expect that there would be additional changes to professions as a result. At the moment, low base health is balanced by: Thief/stealth, evasion and high mobility; Elementalist/damage plus healing plus defensive skills; and Guardian/lots of defensive buffs and healing.

Also, as of right now, the difference between heavy and light armor is small. Glass versions of scholar classes (light) have 967 Defense with their full Ascended whereas soldiers (heavy) have 1271. That's a difference of 304, meaning that a glass scholar's Armor core would be 1967 (967 Defense plus 1000 Toughness) and the glass soldier would have 2271 (1271 + 1000). If each receives a hit which does 10,000,000 base damage, then they would take:

Scholar: 10,000,000/1967 = 5,084Soldier: 10,000,000/2271 = 4,403

That's a difference of 681 health, and that's a fairly substantial hit, usually requiring either another player, a champion/legendary mob or an outlier in other mob classifications. That difference (the soldier is taking a bit more than 86% of the damage the scholar takes) is easily compensated for by a variety of differences between professions that have more to do with sustain or active defense than stats.

It's always been like this, even in the core zerker meta the warrior would f.ex have a favourable matchup against a thief, the same way a necro would have a weakness towards rangers. The expansions sought to bridge those gaps, this is why they introduced marauder gear aswell to allow hp to matter less and create fairer fights.

But I agree, in hindsight this just created more issues where we went from vit+defence being the scale (that everyone could take advantage of) to mobility and boon uptime deciding who was most likely to win, which not all professions have equal access to.

This doesn't mean you just have to work harder to win - there is no way for you to bridge that gap except roll specific professions.

@Jski.6180 said:As for armor you give up a lot of power just to make up for the fact your not a soldier where the soldier can push dmg all the more. All though vit is way more important then armor in this game. High hp classes get to get free dmg builds where low hp classes often MUST run vit at some level or they will kill them self on passive reticulation or a random condi on hit.

Which game mode are we talking about?Spvp, WvW or PvE?

Can you prove this?

Last I checked classes in high end PvE run the exact same Stat combinations across all 3 weight classes optimizing for damage or support.

The same applies to WvW and builds there.

Or better yet, give those with low health/armor better ways to defend themselves with skills and abilities. Thieves (low health, medium armor) got stealth and a billion evades, so they don't really need more armor or health to survive. Guardians (low health) have loads of blocks, invulnerability skills and healing skills to stay alive. Mesmers (moderate health, light armor) have lots of evades, blocks and of course their clones to defend themselves. I don't think Thieves, Guardians and Mesmers need any kind of increased passive stats at all.

I think the only profession that is really badly designed in that regard is Elementalist. Lowest health, lowest armor and absolutely nothing to compensate for it. No stealth, not enough blocks/evades, no good healing when you are focused (Elementalist can heal very well, but not burst heal), and even that healing is garbage if you don't spec for it.

@Cyninja.2954 said:Which game mode are we talking about?

I'd say the entire opening post fits Elementalists perfectly in PVP. They don't have clones, stealth, burst healing, passive defense or kiting capabilities, if you invest heavily you might get passive defense and some healing, but that means you do no damage anymore. Meanwhile, even the highest dps Thieves have evades or stealth, Mesmers have distortion and lots of clones to hide, Guardians blocks and heals that are part of the profession without any investment needed.

@maddoctor.2738 said:Or better yet, give those with low health/armor better ways to defend themselves with skills and abilities. Thieves (low health, medium armor) got stealth and a billion evades, so they don't really need more armor or health to survive. Guardians (low health) have loads of blocks, invulnerability skills and healing skills to stay alive. Mesmers (moderate health, light armor) have lots of evades, blocks and of course their clones to defend themselves. I don't think Thieves, Guardians and Mesmers need any kind of increased passive stats at all.

I think the only profession that is really badly designed in that regard is Elementalist. Lowest health, lowest armor and absolutely nothing to compensate for it. No stealth, not enough blocks/evades, no good healing when you are focused (Elementalist can heal very well, but not burst heal), and even that healing is garbage if you don't spec for it.

@Cyninja.2954 said:Which game mode are we talking about?

Does it? I guess you've never encountered any weavers in PvP ...

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:As for armor you give up a lot of power just to make up for the fact your not a soldier where the soldier can push dmg all the more. All though vit is way more important then armor in this game.

High hp classes get to get free dmg builds where low hp classes often MUST run vit at some level

or they will kill them self on passive reticulation or a random condi on hit.

Less armor targets and hp targets to hit for higher classes lets them build more crit dmg or condi dmg. There is a very much set cap to these dmg type in this game and pure power is not a true viable dmg type sadly. There was talk a long time ago with main crit dmg gear set but it never came out i bet it was because it would push the high hp / def classes dmg that much higher then the lower hp / def classes who because they are the wrong class must build def to do dmg.

The prove is that we have a lot of passive dmg effects in gw2 retaliation and on hit condis eat dps classes alive and its only hp that stops this.

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:As for armor you give up a lot of power just to make up for the fact your not a soldier where the soldier can push dmg all the more. All though vit is way more important then armor in this game.

High hp classes get to get free dmg builds where low hp classes often MUST run vit at some level

or they will kill them self on passive reticulation or a random condi on hit.

Please show specific builds or examples, again I don't see what you are explaining in endgame builds.

I understand what you are trying to say, I just don't agree that this is an issue in actual builds and game play. If you check any endgame build for pve, all condi builds build Viper, all power builds build berserker (with some assassin gear depending on class). This is not affected by armor weight. The same applies to WvW where the sets differ to usually incorporate as much toughness as possible depending on the range you play (frontline, mid- or backline).

You are talking pure theory which is not actually true in game (due to multiple reasons which you did not get into like the majority of survival depending on active defenses).

I'm asking for specific examples where a light armor class will specifically build inferior gear into their build.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:As for armor you give up a lot of power just to make up for the fact your not a soldier where the soldier can push dmg all the more. All though vit is way more important then armor in this game.

High hp classes get to get free dmg builds where low hp classes often MUST run vit at some level

or they will kill them self on passive reticulation or a random condi on hit.

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:As for armor you give up a lot of power just to make up for the fact your not a soldier where the soldier can push dmg all the more. All though vit is way more important then armor in this game.

High hp classes get to get free dmg builds where low hp classes often MUST run vit at some level

or they will kill them self on passive reticulation or a random condi on hit.

Your viper build what class? As 2 of the 3 light armor classes have high to mid hp i would not call them glassy that the problem and your unable to see the problem other classes that you may not be playing because your set up works well for you.

Something underline of a problem with GW2 community it is the nice community but more then often if there build and set up for the class they like is good every thing else is ok in the game with out any though to classes who are at a big disavaged. Its selfishnessism and if its showing it self in a video game that is know for a nice community there not much hope any where else.

And you know well and every one else on the forms what i am talking about but no one can say it with out these ideals and though getting thown into the shadow realm of these forms.

Also these are general forms lets keep it that way. Its a question of hp / def having variation but nothing else and how in time elite spec. are braking down this type of balancing. Having mid to high def / hp classes with strong ranged dmg is broken. Having low def/hp classes to be melee is broken as they cant pull if off in any real combat.

This is not just a question of armor types this is a question of hp types as hp is way more important.

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:As for armor you give up a lot of power just to make up for the fact your not a soldier where the soldier can push dmg all the more. All though vit is way more important then armor in this game.

High hp classes get to get free dmg builds where low hp classes often MUST run vit at some level

or they will kill them self on passive reticulation or a random condi on hit.

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:As for armor you give up a lot of power just to make up for the fact your not a soldier where the soldier can push dmg all the more. All though vit is way more important then armor in this game.

High hp classes get to get free dmg builds where low hp classes often MUST run vit at some level

or they will kill them self on passive reticulation or a random condi on hit.

https://snowcrows.com/https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/elementalist/weaver/condition/ - condi elementalist, full viperhttps://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/thief/daredevil/condition/ - condi thief, full viperhttps://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/guardian/firebrand/condition/ - condi firebrand, full viper

All 3 low hitpoint classes running their pve condi builds, all of them full viper.

Nobody uses passive defenses in endgame pve, it's a waste of stats.

EDIT: and please, this applies to all pve builds, power too. All classes use the same gear in 95% of the time. The only difference is occasionally from traits which allow some classes to easier reach cap condition duration, boon duration or critical hit chance. Absolutely armor unrelated.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:As for armor you give up a lot of power just to make up for the fact your not a soldier where the soldier can push dmg all the more. All though vit is way more important then armor in this game.

High hp classes get to get free dmg builds where low hp classes often MUST run vit at some level

or they will kill them self on passive reticulation or a random condi on hit.

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:As for armor you give up a lot of power just to make up for the fact your not a soldier where the soldier can push dmg all the more. All though vit is way more important then armor in this game.

High hp classes get to get free dmg builds where low hp classes often MUST run vit at some level

or they will kill them self on passive reticulation or a random condi on hit.

Good for them it dose not make it balance and shows the problem with elite spec and how they are modding the old points of balances.

Why dose the ele run earth line when it would get more out of arcain or even air for dmg.

Also pve has brain dead mobs often are just a joke of real need for balancing. Though its still important and if the mobs are not attking you at all where you need no def then the game type is to easy.

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:As for armor you give up a lot of power just to make up for the fact your not a soldier where the soldier can push dmg all the more. All though vit is way more important then armor in this game.

High hp classes get to get free dmg builds where low hp classes often MUST run vit at some level

or they will kill them self on passive reticulation or a random condi on hit.

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:As for armor you give up a lot of power just to make up for the fact your not a soldier where the soldier can push dmg all the more. All though vit is way more important then armor in this game.

High hp classes get to get free dmg builds where low hp classes often MUST run vit at some level

or they will kill them self on passive reticulation or a random condi on hit.

First off, the elementalist runs earth because the the total damage is higher than with arcain, you would know this if you understood what these builds are for = maximum damage output possible per class.

The pve brain dead mobs get nullified with active defenses, not passive ones, but yes they pose little threat on any class if you know what you do. Then again most attacks from raid bosses wipe you off the face of the earth if you eat them face first no matter your hitpoint pool.

Thus we are at my original question, which game mode are we talking about? I assume now it's WvW.

Now I could link you some metabattle builds and once again show that people actually build the same gear sets if they desire the same result no matter the base hitpoint pool with only some minor personal differences. Then I would comment on how WvW is a numbers game, how all 3 light armor classes have insane baseline survival skills built into their kit and that positioning is king in WvW and once again survival is dependent on active defenses.

and we ultimately end at what I said earlier: the theory is not reflected in endgame builds because quite frankly, the hitpoint and armor difference is of minor concern compared to actual class builds, traits and utilities.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:As for armor you give up a lot of power just to make up for the fact your not a soldier where the soldier can push dmg all the more. All though vit is way more important then armor in this game.

High hp classes get to get free dmg builds where low hp classes often MUST run vit at some level

or they will kill them self on passive reticulation or a random condi on hit.

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:As for armor you give up a lot of power just to make up for the fact your not a soldier where the soldier can push dmg all the more. All though vit is way more important then armor in this game.

High hp classes get to get free dmg builds where low hp classes often MUST run vit at some level

or they will kill them self on passive reticulation or a random condi on hit.

Is the build better then other classes part of the talk we are having as you have the full glass class of ele vs say the not so class dardevil and FB who is doing better dmg?

Every one should be taking dmg and there should be a minim of living though hits and not just a one shot game play as that not good for balancing. It comply destroy the argument that some one else brings up that making power / precision different from class to class making the game all about glass as it seems to be all about going all in glass. If any thing its pve that holding this game back if what your saying is true and pve has such stunted effect on classes.

For wvw is all about living though that one shot from rev about 12k to 17k dmg and all about trying to one shot that rev who has higher hp and def then the other ranged classes. The cost of being able to live though these hits of dmg as well as utility given up. At the same time you must be able to live though your owns skills vs up the passive effects of classes mostly the high hp / def classes have.

So me a real meta build out side of FB, scorge, rev, and spell braker all of watch are higher def classes (def or hp mostly hp but for FB who will run all in def gear making up for any lost of hp with out giving up any type of real support).

For Spvp its about being able to kill ppl with out being too glassly. Offten you just find classes simply are able to run with the mid to high def / hp. The lower hp / def classes cant build high enofe dmg to kill them with out being a simple drain on there team.

That is where the game is today if your not the right class your hated and kicked you CANT play the game the way you want and THIS hp / def variation is part of the problem. There no amount of being nice and letting token classes join with you will help this too and you cant just simply ignore it as one of the forgotten classes. This is caused by anet and can only be fixed by anet.

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:As for armor you give up a lot of power just to make up for the fact your not a soldier where the soldier can push dmg all the more. All though vit is way more important then armor in this game.

High hp classes get to get free dmg builds where low hp classes often MUST run vit at some level

or they will kill them self on passive reticulation or a random condi on hit.

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:As for armor you give up a lot of power just to make up for the fact your not a soldier where the soldier can push dmg all the more. All though vit is way more important then armor in this game.

High hp classes get to get free dmg builds where low hp classes often MUST run vit at some level

or they will kill them self on passive reticulation or a random condi on hit.

Not sure what you are getting at, all classes use the same gear. The resulting disparity in damage thus will be due to balance of skills, not hitpoint pools or armor. Go check the benchmarks to see class performance disparity but again, this is with maximum damage gear. No class will outperform another suddenly when taking Less damage gear.

@Jski.6180 said:Every one should be taking dmg and there should be a minim of living though hits and not just a one shot game play as that not good for balancing. It comply destroy the argument that some one else brings up that making power / precision different from class to class making the game all about glass as it seems to be all about going all in glass. If any thing its pve that holding this game back if what your saying is true and pve has such stunted effect on classes.

PvE has remained the same ever since release. It was always a pure damage race and defensive stats have been useless ever since. This has to do with active mitigation and the active combat system and not with hitpoint pools or armor values.

@Jski.6180 said:For wvw is all about living though that one shot from rev about 12k to 17k dmg and all about trying to one shot that rev who has higher hp and def then the other ranged classes. The cost of being able to live though these hits of dmg as well as utility given up. At the same time you must be able to live though your owns skills vs up the passive effects of classes mostly the high hp / def classes have.

So me a real meta build out side of FB, scorge, rev, and spell braker all of watch are higher def classes (def or hp mostly hp but for FB who will run all in def gear making up for any lost of hp with out giving up any type of real support).

Go look them up yourself. Most run high toughness if they are Frontline with varying degrees of toughness towards the back line.

@Jski.6180 said:For Spvp its about being able to kill ppl with out being too glassly. Offten you just find classes simply are able to run with the mid to high def / hp. The lower hp / def classes cant build high enofe dmg to kill them with out being a simple drain on there team.

Thief while being stealthed is glassy? Have you ever fought a good elementalists or engineer (medium hitpoints) 1on1? Tell me how well that fight went with the Firebrand who is getting aegis left an right.

Go check the spvp forums for which classes made the "please nerf now" cycle of the week. Here's a hint: it hasn't been high hitpoint classes in a while, and even there all complaints are centered around classes active abilities in general.

@Jski.6180 said:That is where the game is today if your not the right class your hated and kicked you CANT play the game the way you want and THIS hp / def variation is part of the problem. There no amount of being nice and letting token classes join with you will help this too and you cant just simply ignore it as one of the forgotten classes. This is caused by anet and can only be fixed by anet.

This has NOTHING to do with armor or hitpoint pools.

This is all about peak performance damage wise in pve and most useful active defensive abilities while staying as offensive as possible in competative modes.

All based on class traits, skills and abilities.

TL;DR: hitpoint pools and armor values are not significant enough to actually make big enough a difference compared to abilities, traits and design.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:As for armor you give up a lot of power just to make up for the fact your not a soldier where the soldier can push dmg all the more. All though vit is way more important then armor in this game.

High hp classes get to get free dmg builds where low hp classes often MUST run vit at some level

or they will kill them self on passive reticulation or a random condi on hit.

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:As for armor you give up a lot of power just to make up for the fact your not a soldier where the soldier can push dmg all the more. All though vit is way more important then armor in this game.

High hp classes get to get free dmg builds where low hp classes often MUST run vit at some level

or they will kill them self on passive reticulation or a random condi on hit.

@Jski.6180 said:Every one should be taking dmg and there should be a minim of living though hits and not just a one shot game play as that not good for balancing. It comply destroy the argument that some one else brings up that making power / precision different from class to class making the game all about glass as it seems to be all about going all in glass. If any thing its pve that holding this game back if what your saying is true and pve has such stunted effect on classes.

@Jski.6180 said:For wvw is all about living though that one shot from rev about 12k to 17k dmg and all about trying to one shot that rev who has higher hp and def then the other ranged classes. The cost of being able to live though these hits of dmg as well as utility given up. At the same time you must be able to live though your owns skills vs up the passive effects of classes mostly the high hp / def classes have.

So me a real meta build out side of FB, scorge, rev, and spell braker all of watch are higher def classes (def or hp mostly hp but for FB who will run all in def gear making up for any lost of hp with out giving up any type of real support).

@Jski.6180 said:For Spvp its about being able to kill ppl with out being too glassly. Offten you just find classes simply are able to run with the mid to high def / hp. The lower hp / def classes cant build high enofe dmg to kill them with out being a simple drain on there team.

@Jski.6180 said:That is where the game is today if your not the right class your hated and kicked you CANT play the game the way you want and THIS hp / def variation is part of the problem. There no amount of being nice and letting token classes join with you will help this too and you cant just simply ignore it as one of the forgotten classes. This is caused by anet and can only be fixed by anet.

All that on the gear builds that are all on base hp / def.

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:As for armor you give up a lot of power just to make up for the fact your not a soldier where the soldier can push dmg all the more. All though vit is way more important then armor in this game.

High hp classes get to get free dmg builds where low hp classes often MUST run vit at some level

or they will kill them self on passive reticulation or a random condi on hit.

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:As for armor you give up a lot of power just to make up for the fact your not a soldier where the soldier can push dmg all the more. All though vit is way more important then armor in this game.

High hp classes get to get free dmg builds where low hp classes often MUST run vit at some level

or they will kill them self on passive reticulation or a random condi on hit.

@Jski.6180 said:Every one should be taking dmg and there should be a minim of living though hits and not just a one shot game play as that not good for balancing. It comply destroy the argument that some one else brings up that making power / precision different from class to class making the game all about glass as it seems to be all about going all in glass. If any thing its pve that holding this game back if what your saying is true and pve has such stunted effect on classes.

True, and now with elite specialisations it's the same unless you are a support and build healing power. Toughness stacking was always a thing in WvW. Hence why everyone uses maximum damage gear in PvE.

Tanks are only a thing in raids and are currently 99% of the time chronos due to their class build and abilities. No high hitpoint class is even remotely used as tank for example. So once again, kinda not supporting your thesis here.

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:For wvw is all about living though that one shot from rev about 12k to 17k dmg and all about trying to one shot that rev who has higher hp and def then the other ranged classes. The cost of being able to live though these hits of dmg as well as utility given up. At the same time you must be able to live though your owns skills vs up the passive effects of classes mostly the high hp / def classes have.

So me a real meta build out side of FB, scorge, rev, and spell braker all of watch are higher def classes (def or hp mostly hp but for FB who will run all in def gear making up for any lost of hp with out giving up any type of real support).

What? Okay whatever, not going to get into this discussion. You could have just said you are clueless about WvW.

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:For Spvp its about being able to kill ppl with out being too glassly. Offten you just find classes simply are able to run with the mid to high def / hp. The lower hp / def classes cant build high enofe dmg to kill them with out being a simple drain on there team.

Engineer is medium armor and medium hitpoint pool with a ton of utility (which is their survival), elementalists are tanky due to proper blasting and defensive utilities, Thief has the engage and disengage advantage thanks to stealth while being highly mobile with dodges.

Come on man, this is getting silly.

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Go check the spvp forums for which classes made the "please nerf now" cycle of the week. Here's a hint: it hasn't been high hitpoint classes in a while, and even there all complaints are centered around classes active abilities in general.

Its just the same classes over and over the cycle your tricking your self with is ppl willingness to talk about it.

It was Mirage and Thief, now it's Thief and engineer. Try again.

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:That is where the game is today if your not the right class your hated and kicked you CANT play the game the way you want and THIS hp / def variation is part of the problem. There no amount of being nice and letting token classes join with you will help this too and you cant just simply ignore it as one of the forgotten classes. This is caused by anet and can only be fixed by anet.

You have yet to show that classes use different gear depending on hitpoint pools, something which you have NOT yet actually in any way proven.

Also, not true.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:As for armor you give up a lot of power just to make up for the fact your not a soldier where the soldier can push dmg all the more. All though vit is way more important then armor in this game.

High hp classes get to get free dmg builds where low hp classes often MUST run vit at some level

or they will kill them self on passive reticulation or a random condi on hit.

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:As for armor you give up a lot of power just to make up for the fact your not a soldier where the soldier can push dmg all the more. All though vit is way more important then armor in this game.

High hp classes get to get free dmg builds where low hp classes often MUST run vit at some level

or they will kill them self on passive reticulation or a random condi on hit.

@Jski.6180 said:Every one should be taking dmg and there should be a minim of living though hits and not just a one shot game play as that not good for balancing. It comply destroy the argument that some one else brings up that making power / precision different from class to class making the game all about glass as it seems to be all about going all in glass. If any thing its pve that holding this game back if what your saying is true and pve has such stunted effect on classes.

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:For wvw is all about living though that one shot from rev about 12k to 17k dmg and all about trying to one shot that rev who has higher hp and def then the other ranged classes. The cost of being able to live though these hits of dmg as well as utility given up. At the same time you must be able to live though your owns skills vs up the passive effects of classes mostly the high hp / def classes have.

So me a real meta build out side of FB, scorge, rev, and spell braker all of watch are higher def classes (def or hp mostly hp but for FB who will run all in def gear making up for any lost of hp with out giving up any type of real support).

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:For Spvp its about being able to kill ppl with out being too glassly. Offten you just find classes simply are able to run with the mid to high def / hp. The lower hp / def classes cant build high enofe dmg to kill them with out being a simple drain on there team.

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Go check the spvp forums for which classes made the "please nerf now" cycle of the week. Here's a hint: it hasn't been high hitpoint classes in a while, and even there all complaints are centered around classes active abilities in general.

Its just the same classes over and over the cycle your tricking your self with is ppl willingness to talk about it.

@Jski.6180 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jski.6180 said:That is where the game is today if your not the right class your hated and kicked you CANT play the game the way you want and THIS hp / def variation is part of the problem. There no amount of being nice and letting token classes join with you will help this too and you cant just simply ignore it as one of the forgotten classes. This is caused by anet and can only be fixed by anet.

Different classes have different hp but dont have different power. Look at any build web page its an easy way to get an ideal of how much of a differences there is and how you must build to make up for these differences. That not how balancing works your simply just trying to re-balances the game as a player though gear at that point and its never going to work out.

@Jski.6180 said:

Different classes have different hp but dont have different power. Look at any build web page its an easy way to get an ideal of how much of a differences there is and how you must build to make up for these differences. That not how balancing works your simply just trying to re-balances the game as a player though gear at that point and its never going to work out.

There is much more to a build's effectiveness than just HP, Armor and Power. Different profession mechanics, traits, utilities, weapon skills and, perhaps most importantly, weapon coefficients, make a big difference. By your reasoning, Warriors should be kings of the game, as they have the best health pool and the best Defense stat from gear. However, if you look at meta builds, they are either Bannerslaves in instanced PvE or Spellbreaker Boon Strippers in PvP/WvW. If they were top of the heap, you'd see more variety in Warrior builds at the pinnacle of the game's meta.

The way balance seems to work in GW2 is that stats and base health/armor weight are static factors. That still leaves everything else as dynamic factors that the devs change as they see fit. That suggests that the devs do not see your point. To prove your point to where they might notice, you would need a lot more ammunition than you've provided.