The plot has not been this bad since War with Scarlet (SPOILERS) - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

The plot has not been this bad since War with Scarlet (SPOILERS)

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  • @Trise.2865 said:
    "They don't go to the police because it's boring." - Alfred Hitchcock, the father of horror movies.

    And Freud is often considered the father of modern psychology. I don’t have to tell you that a lot of the things he believed in are no longer supported by any sane psychologist. Someone being a prominent figure regarding an issue does not automatically make them right regarding everything they said about it. I would still consider a horror movie that applies such human behavior as one with a cheap plot, the only movies which can get away with it are trash films.

    But we are not talking about trash- or even horror movies here (ok, maybe if you want to say that the story is so bad it could be considered horror…) but a fantasy universe. While there are certain plot holes accepted as a given (most of the time, some universes have explanations for them), like magic ignoring thermodynamics and other basic laws of nature, societies that could not really exist as stable as they are depicted, ect, the audience still has the right to expect continuity and consistency to a certain extent. A single plot hole may be something we can all overlook, but a higher number may very well delude the feelings we can put into the story and the characters fates. A good example was is the discussion about how cheap death may come across. While not necessary a plot hole, it feels as if somehow it makes us care less about the characters. A plot hole is a bigger version of that: Why care about the fate of Kingdom A when I know that there is no consistency and it will be fine if it is destroyed, since it will probably come back later like Kingdom B did, despite it making no sense. Why would I care about Character C dying when Character D next to them could have easily rescued them but did not without any real reason for not doing so? The first time it may be shocking, and you may question the reasonings of D, but after it continues happening, you start to just don’t care anymore. This is the audience losing interest in a story because of its lack of integrity, which is bad writing. And a plot hole is nothing less than a giant hole of integrity, and such also bad writing.

    @Trise.2865 said:
    All they do is give pedantic kittens something to point at and feel smart for noticing. Don't confuse self-righteous nit-picking with actual criticism (or worse, actual bad storytelling), as is popular on YouTube... or FoxNews.

    I think this here pretty much sums up my opinion on what you said there:

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    And, for what it's worth, as someone who does struggle to enjoy a story that draws attention to it's plot holes- noticing does not make me feel smart, or superior. In fact, I tend to take it for granted that others have noticed the same thing. I don't get anything out of it- it's just a disappointment, or, in some cases, an irritant.

    I would also add: Calling someone pedantic for expecting consistency in a story and trying to make them look like baby cats for criticizing plot holes that take away from the joy the audience can get out of the story (in a lore forum) with the hope that some of the writers may actually take what was said to heart, sounds like you might have problems with people disliking something you don’t. I would be careful with your phrasing there, it may come across as rude or childish.

  • @DanAlcedo.3281 said:

    @Weindrasi.3805 said:

    @Zoltar MacRoth.7146 said:
    None of that matters next to the truly horrific fact that Eir is an atrocious parent.

    Eir: I wasn't what you needed. I know that. And I'm sorry, but... I had to be true to myself. I had to follow my legend.
    Eir: I didn't want to leave you behind. Believe me. I knew the cost. But if I'd stayed...what good to you would I have been?

    Bunch of BS excuses. What Braham needed was HIS MOM.
    Totally agree, terrible parent. Comes back from the dead to say, basically, "sorry not sorry kid, I had better stuff to do"

    She is a Norn. That a Norn makes not a good mother is the entire point.

    If that's the point, it's not a good one. It's accusing an entire race of being bad parents which is not only falling back on the planet-of-hats syndrome of the early Trek shows but not statistically likely. There are bound to be good Norn moms and dads. There are bound to be those who defy their cultural conventions to do their own thing.
    Eir happens to be of the type to put herself first, which is fine. That's the majority in her culture and she servers an important role in representing that and the archetype of a bad parent. She is... was... a tragic figure.

    Was, because after her appearance in the last LS episode, she's gone from tragic to despicable. She comes back from the dead (apparently a one-time thing only) and uses that brief moment to further emotionally scar her son. She shows no remorse, no regret, not even a shred of guilty or even the empathy to use her last chance to even pretend to her son that she loves him more than herself. She won't even give him that. Would it have hurt her 'legend' to show a little love?

    And let's not forget she also took the opportunity to bully Aurene. No pep talk. No charisma. Just you-kill-kralk-now. Apparently, Eir wasn't content with scarring one living being on her brief hiatus from the afterlife. Are we sure Kralk is the real villain here?

    Anyway, does this make the plot bad? Not at all. It explains a lot about Braham and makes me feel for him. It shows that he's a much better person than his mom, caring more for those around him, especially Taimi. He succeeds where his mom failed. That's actually motivational story writing, especially for those of us who've experienced parenting like Eir's ourselves.

  • Zaraki.5784Zaraki.5784 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I must say that I agree, the development I'm most interested in is "Where will we go after Kralkatorrik?", this should say enough of my interest in current arc...

    "Sticks and stones may break your bones but words will never be able to injure you!"
    The Grim Adventures of Billy & Mandy

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 22, 2018

    @Zoltar MacRoth.7146 said:

    Was, because after her appearance in the last LS episode, she's gone from tragic to despicable. She comes back from the dead (apparently a one-time thing only) and uses that brief moment to further emotionally scar her son. She shows no remorse, no regret, not even a shred of guilty or even the empathy to use her last chance to even pretend to her son that she loves him more than herself. She won't even give him that. Would it have hurt her 'legend' to show a little love?

    It depends on what you read into the delivery, but for me, I did hear a little remorse... but only a little. She's a hyper-focused character who doesn't do well with distraction at the best of times, and what she spared for Braham, she tried to use to encourage him to let go. Holding on to her has been doing him, and the people around him, more harm than good. She wasn't remotely tactful about it, of course. She is still a bad mother in my book. I think she recognized that, and in such a situation, encouraging Braham to look elsewhere was probably the best act of caring she could manage.

    And let's not forget she also took the opportunity to bully Aurene. No pep talk. No charisma. Just you-kill-kralk-now. Apparently, Eir wasn't content with scarring one living being on her brief hiatus from the afterlife. Are we sure Kralk is the real villain here?

    I'll chalk that up to stress and a very tight time limit, since it wasn't particularly in-character for Eir, but yeah. Methinks Glint may not be a great parent either.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    @Zoltar MacRoth.7146 said:

    Was, because after her appearance in the last LS episode, she's gone from tragic to despicable. She comes back from the dead (apparently a one-time thing only) and uses that brief moment to further emotionally scar her son. She shows no remorse, no regret, not even a shred of guilty or even the empathy to use her last chance to even pretend to her son that she loves him more than herself. She won't even give him that. Would it have hurt her 'legend' to show a little love?

    It depends on what you read into the delivery, but for me, I did hear a little remorse... but only a little. She's a hyper-focused character who doesn't do well with distraction at the best of times, and what she spared for Braham, she tried to use to encourage him to let go. Holding on to her has been doing him, and the people around him, more harm than good. She wasn't remotely tactful about it, of course. She is still a bad mother in my book. But she recognized that too, and in that situation, encouraging Braham to look elsewhere was an act of caring.

    And let's not forget she also took the opportunity to bully Aurene. No pep talk. No charisma. Just you-kill-kralk-now. Apparently, Eir wasn't content with scarring one living being on her brief hiatus from the afterlife. Are we sure Kralk is the real villain here?

    I'll chalk that up to stress and a very tight time limit, since it wasn't particularly in-character for Eir, but yeah. Methinks Glint may not be a great parent either.

    Good points.

  • Ardid.7203Ardid.7203 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 22, 2018

    Being a Norn and chasing your Legend shouldn't force you to be a bad or absent parent. In fact, your Legend may perfectly be about being a warrior with a child (Lone Wolf and Cub: few examples of a bigger legend than their story), or even about being such a Legendary Parent (No combat needed, just properly raising 20 childs on your own: super Legendary). Norn Legends aren't fixed only to combat or hunt.

    But I digress. The point is Eir DID left Braham super alone in her pursuit of her legend. This is logic and coherent. But THEN Braham grow up with resent and insecurity because it. And THAT doesn't make sense. If the Norn are known for leaving their houses to pursue heroics, then MOST of their childs will be:
    a) Left alone at a very young age, so growing as an orphan shouldn't be specially difficult or sad, because it should simply be the custom.
    b) Left in charge of specialized nurturing organizations, destined specially to support this kind of known and accepted behavior.

    A Norn growing bitter because their parents abandoned him/her is absurd. If their society is stable, it should be capable of answer the Legend's call effect over children somehow. A society driven by individual enterprises can't be expected to have conventional families constructed by moder human standars: nuclear, biparental, co-resident, consanguine... It just don't make sense. Compare Braham's trauma with the Charr PC father's story. The Norn should have an equivalent to the charr's fahrars, It's just logical.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭

    @Rikimaru.7890 said:
    Killing Balthazar with Sohothin
    Yes that makes a ton of sense - killing the God of Fire with a firey sword. I mean this is like trying to drown a fish. More over Sohothin was by lore Balthazar's own sword once, also Balthazar himself reignited it when it lost it's power inside The Mists. If this was taken seriously then once we reach Balthazar he would be like: Oh nice sword you got there! snaps fingers and Sohophin loses all it's powers Woops how did that happen?

    It's not about fire it's about power.. Balthazar re-ignited the sword yes but the sword is a powerful artifact in it's own right.
    Balthazar was trapped via magical bonds yet still able to re-ignite the sword which was then used to break those chains.. you could easily argue if he had the power to ignite the sword why didn't he just break the chains himself?
    Another question would be if Balthazar was so powerful why did he even bother using a sword or even Sohothin itself back in the day?

    The power of a being and the power of an artifact are not the same thing. Balthazar had the power to re-awaken the sword but it being able to free him strongly suggests that it's power is it's own and it wouldn't be so easy even for Balthazar to strip that power away again.
    Add to that it was poetic.. he wanted to kill the crystal dragon with a spear made from the crytsal dragon itself.. using the dragons power against it and was in turn killed by a sword he once owned and re-awakened with his own power by someone he once killed in battle.
    Gotta love irony :P

    The Ghost Army
    Do you mean to tell me that ghosts can actually do whatever they want? Then why do they always hang out near their resting place? I mean even if we assume only certain ghosts can do that, then there still should be some ghosts walking freely around the world. When Palawa Joko took over Elona the Awakened and the living started to coexist with one another, so there should also be some ghosts that continue to roam among the living.

    Ghosts linger in their place of death due to unfinished business or other specific reason for doing so.
    They're not interested in the world because they're no longer part of it, but seemingly yes they can in theory roam around the world if they so choose to do so it's just that for the most part they have no interest in anything other than finishing their unfinished business and moving on or protecting specific places or artifacts of importance.

    Kralkatorrik inside The Mists
    I have mixed feeling about this one since it does raise the tension up a lot, however it should be game over at this point. I mean The Mists have unlimited magic so I don't see how we can hope to stop Kralkatorrik at this point. It doesn't make sense that he is even interested in attacking Tyria at this point, since all the magic Tyria has to offer is nothing but a fraction of what The Mists have to offer. Are we are suppose to lure Kralkatorrik out of The Mists? Why would he ever leave them? He wants to kill Aurene sure but I'm pretty sure fighting inside The Mists would be a better option for him. So it's more logical for Kralkatorrik to wait for us to come to him, since we have no choice anyway, than to risk it and go back to Tyria.
    It also makes no sense why he would want Balthazar's sword so badly, not only do The Mists have way more magic to offer but also the Sword lost it's power when we found it and had to reignite it. One of the methods to do it was using a brandstorm lightning, which in reality would be Kralkatorrik's own power, so I really don't see how the sword would be so attractive to him.

    Personally I love this story ark and I am absolutely loving how well the devs have been pushing the narrative of how powerful Kralkatorrik is becoming.
    For the first time in Gw2.. I actually feel like an Elder Dragon is living up to it's title.

    I am hoping at this point that Anet are setting us up for a massive loss against Kralkatorrik, Yes he's becoming godlike powerful and borderline unstoppable and I want him to continue down this path and potentially even drive us out of Tyria in either into Cantha or an entirely new region of the world until we can figure out some way to actually deal with him.
    If we kill him in the living world or by some lackluster method as we have done with the last 2 I am going to be seriously annoyed to the point where I'll more or less stop caring about the Elder Dragons completely.

    I want these things to be the apocalyptic nightmares they've been promoted as since Gw2's main story was first revealed to the public.. and Kralkatorrik is finally doing it.
    I want to fight him.. I want to loose.. I want my character to be completely overwhelmed, outclassed and rendered completely powerless by a walking hurricane!
    And I want to see that we are the villain role come around fully as our character is forced to run away like a coward and leave countless people at the mercy of an Elder Dragon.. and when we finally return to take him down we'll be almost as despised as the dragon itself.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 23, 2018

    @Ardid.7203 said:

    But I digress. The point is Eir DID left Braham super alone in her pursuit of her legend. This is logic and coherent. But THEN Braham grow up with resent and insecurity because it. And THAT doesn't make sense. If the Norn are known for leaving their houses to pursue heroics, then MOST of their childs will be:
    a) Left alone at a very young age, so growing as an orphan shouldn't be specially difficult or sad, because it should simply be the custom.

    Something being commonplace doesn't stop it from being difficult or sad. There are all sorts of 'customary' difficulties that people are expected to live with. It just means that coping mechanisms, functional and dysfunctional, are also commonplace.

    b) Left in charge of specialized nurturing organizations, destined specially to support this kind of known and accepted behavior.

    Heh. A norn organization?

    What we've seen, though, is that the culture does have an accepted solution- in situations where both parents don't stay (and we do see several examples of that in-game), one of the parents remains behind to raise the kid. All evidence is that this works fairly well for them; Braham isn't a typical example. He had two strokes of bad luck, in that his father died several years later... and on his deathbed forbid anyone from telling Eir, so she wouldn't be tempted to come back. That is going to have the potential to mess with a kid when the mother suddenly becomes a major part of his life again, norn or not, but it's also going to be a rare enough case that it doesn't undermine the 'system' as a whole.

    And, on that note, it's also worth observing that Braham doesn't seem to have been terribly bad off either. By all accounts, he was happy when his father was alive, and while he afterward grew to resent Eir, it didn't have a crippling impact on his life. He was still getting on quite well until Cragstead was attacked; it was only due to circumstance (and the writers) that he was stripped of everything he'd held on to and left in a vulnerable enough position that losing Eir could become what it did.

    A Norn growing bitter because their parents abandoned him/her is absurd. If their society is stable, it should be capable of answer the Legend's call effect over children somehow. A society driven by individual enterprises can't be expected to have conventional families constructed by moder human standars: nuclear, biparental, co-resident, consanguine... It just don't make sense. Compare Braham's trauma with the Charr PC father's story. The Norn should have an equivalent to the charr's fahrars, It's just logical.

    Setting aside that the fahrar model couldn't work for the norn, who said their society has to be stable? None of the other four are. Unstable societies don't just make for better story fodder, they're also relatively common.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • @Teratus.2859 said:
    I want these things to be the apocalyptic nightmares they've been promoted as since Gw2's main story was first revealed to the public.. and Kralkatorrik is finally doing it.
    I want to fight him.. I want to lose.. I want my character to be completely overwhelmed, outclassed and rendered completely powerless by a walking hurricane!
    And I want to see that we are the villain role come around fully as our character is forced to run away like a coward and leave countless people at the mercy of an Elder Dragon.. and when we finally return to take him down we'll be almost as despised as the dragon itself.

    Sort of a ..dark knight, you might say? I like it.

  • @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    Comes up in Vabbi that the formal process has the organs removed before the body is Awakened. Obviously wouldn't be the case with on-the-spot Awakenings... but what were the odds that our guards in the Great Hall would have been of that sort?

    Unless I'm mistaken, the organs are removed from bodies that do not qualify for awakening, to be used as 'spare parts' for awakened. That seems to indicate that the awakened still have all their internal organs. Other than that, there seem to be plenty of where awakened still can eat (the wurm event being proof of it).

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ardid.7203 said:
    Being a Norn and chasing your Legend shouldn't force you to be a bad or absent parent. In fact, your Legend may perfectly be about being a warrior with a child (Lone Wolf and Cub: few examples of a bigger legend than their story), or even about being such a Legendary Parent (No combat needed, just properly raising 20 childs on your own: super Legendary). Norn Legends aren't fixed only to combat or hunt.

    But I digress. The point is Eir DID left Braham super alone in her pursuit of her legend. This is logic and coherent. But THEN Braham grow up with resent and insecurity because it. And THAT doesn't make sense. If the Norn are known for leaving their houses to pursue heroics, then MOST of their childs will be:
    a) Left alone at a very young age, so growing as an orphan shouldn't be specially difficult or sad, because it should simply be the custom.
    b) Left in charge of specialized nurturing organizations, destined specially to support this kind of known and accepted behavior.

    A Norn growing bitter because their parents abandoned him/her is absurd. If their society is stable, it should be capable of answer the Legend's call effect over children somehow. A society driven by individual enterprises can't be expected to have conventional families constructed by moder human standars: nuclear, biparental, co-resident, consanguine... It just don't make sense. Compare Braham's trauma with the Charr PC father's story. The Norn should have an equivalent to the charr's fahrars, It's just logical.

    didn't braham get raised by his dad and if the wiki is to be believed he didn't resent her until he found out when his dad died.

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • Ardid.7203Ardid.7203 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Then Braham attitude doesn't have anything to do with him or his mother being Norn. Good, IMO.

  • Traveller.7496Traveller.7496 Member ✭✭✭

    Everything about the plot is just too big, it's too much, too grand scale. I'd much prefer a more down-to-earth plot every now and then. Like following characters that are the nameless people who you see running around the world, while the heroes are fighting Gods and Elder Dragons. Kinda like a spin-off set on the same world.

  • I think the sword makes sense, but the rest of it, especially "drunk" awakened literally doesn't make any sense at all, The ghost Army I think the reasoning before was that Joko had Ghost-eaters, and we could maybe safely assume that Kralkatorrik has something, but even then, they would be super useful fighting along side us all the time since we can just kill any type of Ghost-eating creature, Kralkatorrik in the mists REALLY bothers me, like you said, why would he ever want to come back to Tyria? Unless Arenanet are going the "its his instinct to devour Tyria" which would be really lame because it reduces the main villain to nothing more than a beast driven by instinct which was the problem back in Vanilla and to a lesser extent HoT

  • @thewaterguy.4796 said:
    Kralkatorrik in the mists REALLY bothers me, like you said, why would he ever want to come back to Tyria?

    short oversimplified answer - he wouldn't.

    kralk going off to the mists puts tyria on a clock for disappearing into nothingness and it's our jobe to figure out how to kill him them go into the mists and do it there.

    or find a way to lure/force him out but this one would be stretchy.....

    I mean yeah, he may be sending attacks after aurene since she's posing potential threat and was once used against him already, but I don't think this would at any point ever lead to him to go for it by himself - that's what he has minions for.

    (and I still think that the way to go would be to develop and mass produce anti-kralk cannons put them on alot of pact airship and fly that into the mists with aurene somewhere closeby to be ready to chug the energy we'll release when killing the beast - makes most sense, ammo is lying everywhere around and pact already has prototypes for similar tech - DERVs)

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