The fundamental Problem in PvP(Combat)

Hello,I was playing Guild Wars 2 from the early Betas and I realy enjoyned the core-game. I´m a PvP-Guy and was almost only playing PvP and solo-WvW.I already posted kind of similar posts some years ago, the problem I see isn´t new at all and I just wanted to write about what I think the problems formost in PvP are.

The pvp already started to fall apart like 1 year after launch. At that time there was a "3-round-tournement-system" what worked quite well if you ask me, they patched it out for no reason at all. That was the time when Anet started to constandly making bad decitions.

Back then there were significant differences in classes and their capabilitys. Not every class could do everything equally good.

Anet now constandly tryed to "equalise" those differences.The game shifted now from a style with differed roles with significant differences in what they can do, into a hybrit-meta where "everyone wanted to can do everything".

This started early and back then there where alot off similar posts to what I´m posting now. But Anet listened to the "more not-competetiv playerbase" it seems and it constandly was becoming more and more like this. More hybrit based, every class can kind of do anything equally good, spamm of healing, spamm of not taktical dodges.

Yes the game has alot of dmg I recognize that. But it has too much healing and dodges and that makes it very spammy and misstakes don´t hurt anymore.

Now I´m telling what I think Anet needs to do.And everything what I´m telling need to be strong fundamental changes and not just some little workovers.

They need to give every class back their natural role and capability difference.They need to work on cooldown and casttime of abilitys and make healing and dodges to be a taktical element and not to be spammend.

They might need to overwork the concept of conditions, to be how it was intendet "dmg-over-time", stacking and beeing stronger with time and in nature different to burst.With that they need to overwork the avalability of condition-cleanses to be taktical elemens and not to be just spammed.

In todays state of the game there is too much of everything, making the game very spammy, very forgiving and not taktical or competetiv anymore.Classes need to this significant difference in capability of what they can do best. Back when it was like that, for example, guardians where the best tanks, mesmers the best duelist, elementalist was "the hybrit class" basically, thiefs roamers and initiation burst. There was always a range of different working builds too, but there need to be preferences. Otherwise everything is going to be hybrit, like it is today.

That´s what makes a "Teamgame". You need to add up to your teammates strenghs and weaknesses. This almost isnt a thing today anymore.

To the question if PvP is dead or not. I think it´s dead to the most part and I can tell you why.I know how the PvP was untill 2years after launch and I´m telling you what is different on 2 examples and why PvP isn´t completly empty today.

-Back then, the ingame Chat in the Mists was always alife. There was always searched for teams and people, often even with Teamspeak.Today its EMPTY.-Watch the Hot-Join-Servers. The only 2-3 full Hot-Join-Lobbys are farming Lobbys for XP. People Cap and Decap only for XP. It´s ridiculous if you ask me.It´s EMPTY. It wasn´t like that when I played the game activ. Back then even Hot-Join was to some degree to be taken serious, because the community wasvery different from today.

-Today the PvP only isn´t completly "dead", and now please dont feel offendet, because Anet exchanged the whole Origninal-Competetiv-PvP-Community with the PvE-Community playing PvP.PvP was for a long time ment to be seperet from other game modes. Due to the promblems in competetiv-combat I told earlyer about, most of the Old-Original-PvP-Community left.Then Anet implemented the PvE-Reward-System in PvP to draw PvE-Players to the PvP-Gamemode.That´s why it´s not "completly-dead". But for me and realy every dedicated PvP-Player who wants truely competetiv, taktical PvP, It is.

This isn´t a hate post. It intents to be seen by Anet and to be constructiv.I´m pretty sure there will eighter be a fundamental change or no possitiv change to this problems.I´m posting this to the chance of another expansion some people are hoping for and maybe Anet might hire some good leader for combat and Pvp who actually has some vision.

Good bye. Anet this post was directed to you directly.

The 1v1 duel servers are the only places left in pvp with any semblance of community.

A change that people don't realize that kinda ruined the community was the change to the mists map. In the old map, the areas were closer together and less segregated....it wasn't a surprise to me that most of the talking now takes place in map chat rather than say chat like it usto.

Also, in a recent thread, people argued that dueling shouldn't be a part of open world. This is kinda sad because if you also notice, nobody speaks to each other in PVE either. There's no sense of community because people have places to go and things to do that don't encourage non solo game-play. A good example is crafting. Nothing in this game worth any value is actually trade-able. So we aren't forced by circumstance to interact with another player to trade items which opens a bridge for communication. Instead we are off fighting AI and nodes for our goods...and the AI is easy to kill, and the nodes are easy to mindlessly farm.

Dueling in open world would open up bridges of communication... which is, actively engaging with another player in combat. If the combat is exciting, it draws a crowd, and all of a sudden we would have the community of 1v1 servers in open world...where pros and noobs alike could chat, learn and have fun. But many pve'ers seem to not like others bothering them while they mindlessly farm...it's quiet sad really.

So ya, i feel your sentiment. The fundamental issues with this game were never really figured out or resolved...instead they've now become amplified, by more alienating changes...PVP'ers are no longer unique because everything has been streamlined...just as you said. We don't need to have teammates if we could just do everything on our own already...I can tank, heal, and damage...why would i need to depend on another teammate? Why would i need to synergize with their fields? why would i need their boons or their healing? All the changes made to the game have in a general sense been made to reduce individualism, and in turn has created a community of alienation...

Another example I just remembered.

There were sertan possitions on pvp maps you could teleport yourself with blinks or else.Most of them weren´t OP at all and they needed some skill to pull off, you realy needed to get the exact possiton to do it.It was taktical, most were not OP and you needed some skill for it. Anet patched many of them out.

The only possiton what was realy OP maybe was the thief beeing able to port himself though the backdoor on the foefire map.This was something only serten classes could do. Classes with teleports. There were possitons on the kylo map you could only pull of with the mesmer staff port and it wasn´t too easy to do.This is something that enriches the game by giving individuality to each class and their capabiltys. And to point this out, It wasn´t easy it was skillfull and taktical.But it wasn´t wanted.

"This game is spamming"First of all... Whats ur rating?

the game is spamming but not forgiving in any way. lol. You won't survive 2 good players with real builds hitting you even if you played "tank" and "spammed" buttons

if anything the damage is actually way too high for some specs, not the other way around .. not even remotely close. The main reason i even brought myself up to open the forum is to see what people are saying cause the biggest problem with the game currently is how ridiculously high POWER / FEROCITY damage is. They need to nerf protection's effect and nerf power/ferocity's dmg or at least on certain builds that can end up just 2shotting people, especially with 25 might stacks. Perhaps they also should reduce the max amount of stacks in pvp or something

Ffs use auto wordcorrect or something man. This was just painful to read. And no, I disagree with all your points. The pvp in this game only seems spammy from a new player or outsider's perspectives. There are lot of intricacies that goes into playing each class and no spamming abilities won't get you anywhere. No one class should be exclusive to one role just because they fit into the perceived stereotype of said role, like guardians should not just be tanks because that's what you think guardians should do.

There is a lot more variety in terms of builds and functionality now than there were back at launch especially with the addition of elite specs but I wouldnt say that makes the game spammy and less tactical. Yes there are multiple builds that allow for similar playstyles but thats because of how the meta evolved around conquest which means there are really only 4 main roles that all builds belong to: duelist/side noder, support, dps/carry and roamer/+1/assassin. This is a consequence of balancing around conquest and not because anet is trying to give a little bit of everything to every class. What this means is, contrary to what you said about every class being hybrid, each class still compliments each other depending on the role they play but instead of saying class it makes more sense now to say what build they play because builds determine the role of each class.

For example guardians have 2 elite specs and core. A guardian that uses the meta core build plays a dps role whereas the DH meditrapper would be more of a duelist and firebrand a support. 1 class 3 builds 3 different role. Guardian alone shouldnt be exclusive to being "the tank" and the same applies to other classes.

Final note: Spamming anything in pvp is a 1 way ticket to bronze. Boon awareness is important and if you're spamming skills like warrior shield bash on a guardian with aegis on stability, then you just wasted an important cc skill. There are a lot of other stuff like that that you should be aware of before saying OMG PVP IS SO SPAMMY AND REQUIRES NO SKILL.

@"incisorr.9502" said:the game is spamming but not forgiving in any way. lol. You won't survive 2 good players with real builds hitting you even if you played "tank" and "spammed" buttons

if anything the damage is actually way too high for some specs, not the other way around .. not even remotely close. The main reason i even brought myself up to open the forum is to see what people are saying cause the biggest problem with the game currently is how ridiculously high POWER / FEROCITY damage is. They need to nerf protection's effect and nerf power/ferocity's dmg or at least on certain builds that can end up just 2shotting people, especially with 25 might stacks. Perhaps they also should reduce the max amount of stacks in pvp or something

At least you have to invest in stats if you want your power dmg to actually do dmg. Can't be said about your beloved condi mesmer.

The fundamental problem is that you're looking for a fair/balanced competitive experience instead of playing the game just for the lolz like its meant to be.

@"breno.5423" said:"This game is spamming"First of all... Whats ur rating?

I wasn´t playing the game for quiet some time now for the earlier told reasons. But I already reasoned why PvP can be considered dead rationaly.Why is that.Maybe just add up to the discusion and don´t just talk idiotic shit hm.And whether or not I´m good or not, I played the game from the start and almost only PvP. If I think there wasn´t a spamm back then but it is now I don´t nessersery need skill to know the differnce.Get away.

@bluri.2653 said:Beta player yet i have never seen or heard about you. Lets all listen to bronze player

With beta player you mean not one of the 20-30players in the esports teams? Or what do you mean.I just never got into a save premade team and I never had a save playername to be even known for. I was a good solo player. I remeber to have had duells in games like against this famous engi I don´t know the name anymore, his name started with a T, I played good. When there was this 3-round-system I told about, We almost won against a famous premate I don´t know the name anymore, we had one dc. I know I wasn´t bad, there is no need to convince you.Just add up to the discusion if you have something to say. Or maybe just go back into your elitist corner...... where everyone is gone... because why again? Tell me why no famous pvp player doesn´t play the game anymore again? And I mean play it and not just come once a season to get themself into rank, to then leave again. Because it´s boring them.

Whatever.I watched streams from famous players, helsesh and others. You can clearly see how there isn´t the carrie potential anymore, that was there befor. There almost isn´t a carrie potential anymore. Believe it or not I have own experiece with that too, even not playing in esports.....When Helseth plays in a 2 man party and playes almost perfectly but loses games 200 to 500. It´s because it´s more of a spamm then taktical pvp today.If you can´t admit that you are probably just to proud to.

And there is clearly to see that there is a problem. Why does every famous competetiv-pvp player doesn´t play the game anymore. Even when there is nothing else to play in the mmorpg gerne today what has some worth.I already reasoned how you can see in the mist-chat and the hot-join how the community shifted into a farming community of pve-players playing pvp.You also see the twitch numbers. And I already told. This isn´t new. I watched this whole thing, the decay of PvP for some time now.

Just tell what you think is wrong, you don´t need to have the same opinion. Or just get away man seriously.......You won´t hear my prayers oh elitist pvp brick.

@"Amaranthe.3578" said:The fundamental problem is that you're looking for a fair/balanced competitive experience instead of playing the game just for the lolz like its meant to be.

The game was suppost to be like that and kind of was it at the start. It could be. Anet just didn´t make the right decisions.Also the pvp in this game was promoted to be "competetiv". That´s why it was seperat from other game modes, everyone has the same lvl and gear.I don´t expect too much to change tho. I watched this some years now and how the game was going it´s way.But this post doesn´t hurt and I have the time.

@gw niko.1049 said:The pvp already started to fall apart like 1 year after launch. At that time there was a "3-round-tournement-system" what worked quite well if you ask me, they patched it out for no reason at all. That was the time when Anet started to constandly making bad decitions.

How is that different from the current Automated Tournaments?

@gw niko.1049 said:Back then there were significant differences in classes and their capabilitys. Not every class could do everything equally good.

And still can't. On High Gold/Plat you will already noticed that classes get streamlined in specific roles. Each with their own nuances."Pick a class and do everything" works on low tiers simple because most players are not used dealing with each class. So you can use prettu much anything.

@gw niko.1049 said:Anet now constandly tryed to "equalise" those differences.The game shifted now from a style with differed rolles with significant differences in what they can do, into a hybrit-meta where "everyone wanted to can do everything".

This started early and back then there where alot off similar posts to what I´m posting now. But Anet listened to the "more not-competetiv playerbase" it seems and it constandly was becoming more and more like this. More hybrit based, every class can kind of do anything equally good, spamm of healing, spamm of not taktical dodges.

Yes the game has alot of dmg I recognize that. But it has too much healing and dodges and that makes it very spammy and misstakes don´t hurt anymore.

Is true that some classes can fill different roles, but thats the whole point of specializations and etc. That not always works tough.

Spammy? Not so much.Most DPS classes have 2 choices of burst every 20 seconds or so. Some faster, some slower, depends on the rest of the kit.

People "spamming skills" only happens when players don't know their classes proper effective damage rotations.

@gw niko.1049 said:Now I´m telling what I think Anet needs to do.And everything what I´m telling need to be strong fundamental changes and not just some little workovers.

They need to give every class back their natural rolle and capability difference.They need to work on cooldown and casttime of abilitys and make healing and dodges to be a taktical element and not to be spammend.

Point 01 makes no difference, any player with experience can quickly find out what "role" the opponent build is for.This is indeed complicate on lower tiers, but as you raise in rank most people start playing meta builds with defined roles.Just learn to recognize the BUILD instead of complaining that this warrior is too bulky and this one hits too hard.

@gw niko.1049 said:They might need to overwork the concept of conditions, to be how it was intendet "dmg-over-time", stacking and beeing stronger with time and in nature different to burst.With that they need to overwork the avalability of condition-cleanses to be taktical elemens and not to be just spammed.

Except that this concept doesn't work with the current condi cleanses.In fact, Condis were given this "burst" caracteristic just so they are easier to fight against. People now dodge condi burst just like they dodge power bursts. With the extra option of cleansing when needed.

"Damage over time" tough, is a concept that is already present on hybrid builds. Like Celestial Weaver / Scourge. (not meta tough)

@gw niko.1049 said:In todays state of the game there is too much of everything, making the game very spammy, very forgiving and not taktical or competetiv anymore.Classes need to this significant difference in capability of what they can do best. Back when it was like that, for example, guardians where the best tanks, mesmers the best duelist, elementalist was "the hybrit class" basically, thiefs roamers and initiation burst. There was always a range of different working builds too, but there need to be preferences. Otherwise everything is going to be hybrit, like it is today.

That´s what makes a "Teamgame". You need to add up to your teammates strenghs and weaknesses. This almost isnt a thing today anymore.

Like mentioned above, on higher tiers the builds streamline a lot. And thats EXACTLY what happens.

@gw niko.1049 said:To the question if PvP is dead or not. I think it´s dead to the most part and I can tell you why.I know how the PvP was untill 2years after launch and I´m telling you what is different on 2 examples and why PvP isn´t completly empty today.

-Back then, the ingame Chat in the Mists was always alife. There was always searched for teams and people, often even with Teamspeak.Today its EMPTY.-Watch the Hot-Join-Servers. The only 2-3 full Hot-Join-Lobbys are farming Lobbys for XP. People Cap and Decap only for XP. It´s ridiculous if you ask me.It´s EMPTY. It wasn´t like that when I played the game activ. Back then even Hot-Join was to some degree to be taken serious, because the community wasvery different from today.

I can list a few MMoS with actual dead PvP modes for you to see. GW2 is indeed unpopular, but a queue every 2~3 minutes is very far from being dead.I wont argue with Custon Rooms since they are indeed, forgotten for the most part. Unranked and Ranked goes pretty well.

About the chat, I dunno but chat seens pretty alive in most part. It's worth mentioning that: You can queue from anywhere in the world right now. Not everyone PvPing is on the Mists. Hence less people on the map.

@gw niko.1049 said:-Today the PvP only isn´t completly "dead", and now please dont feel offendet, because Anet exchanged the whole Origninal-Competetiv-PvP-Community with the PvE-Community playing PvP.PvP was for a long time ment to be seperet from other game modes. Due to the promblems in competetiv-combat I told earlyer about, most of the Old-Original-PvP-Community left.Then Anet implemented the PvE-Reward-System in PvP to draw PvE-Players to the PvP-Gamemode.That´s why it´s not "completly-dead". But for me and realy every dedicated PvP-Player who wants truely competetiv, taktical PvP, It is.

Besides filling your inventory, I don't understand how a better reward system would kill a game mode.And OF COURSE, ANET created insentive for PvE players to try PvP. Communitys that don't get new menbers are fated to witter and die.In fact, you said so yourself, the "original-competitive-pvp-community" no longer plays. If no insentive were given then PvP would be trully dead.

Also, there are still people that play SPvP since launch.

@gw niko.1049 said:This isn´t a hate post. It intents to be seen by Anet and to be constructiv.I´m pretty sure there will eighter be a fundamental change or no possitiv change to this problems.I´m posting this to the chance of another expansion some people are hoping for and maybe Anet might hire some good leader for combat and Pvp who actually has some vision.

I won't disagree in the part that SPvP could get some extra attention.The balance patches are good and all. But it's just not enough.

@gw niko.1049 said:

@"Amaranthe.3578" said:The fundamental problem is that you're looking for a fair/balanced competitive experience instead of playing the game just for the lolz like its meant to be.

I am sorry but I just cant understand what your are trying to say.

Yeah, English is obviously not OP's first language.

I'm a plat 1 player (1550-1600 range mostly) and I really don't see the game as spammy. Yes, many things are happening at once, but there's no one ability to spam on any class that leads to a kill. If you can't tell what's going on, stop running into 1v4s or just buckle down and pay attention to what's going on instead of panicking.

Hi,

Before you quit, can you please send all T6 + 3 and mystic coins to Ajaxx.3157

Thanks

xoixo

@voltaicbore.8012 said:Yes, many things are happening at once, but there's no one ability to spam on any class that leads to a kill.

That's not what spammy combat means.

@witcher.3197 said:

@"voltaicbore.8012" said:Yes, many things are happening at once, but there's no one ability to spam on

any

class that leads to a kill.

Point taken - I thought of that myself as well, in that OP probably wasn't complaining about just a single move being too repeatable; just got too lazy to edit. Speaking of lazy... what, pray tell, does spammy combat mean then? Visual or clutter spam? Clone spam?

If you're sticking with "spammy combat" as the ability to chain ability rotations quickly, I stand by my original point. There's enough space between burst cycles that a modicum of situational awareness (and if you got laid out, a quick read of the combat log) should tell you what your opponent was doing. In other words, I feel like it's solidly an L2P issue.