Belgium - Black Lion Keys

Being from Belgium and part of the only Land in the world forbiding gambling activities (with real money) without any security system for childs etc . I'm not allowed to buy any keys and further so getting the exclusive contents from black lion chest.

It already has been more than a month since you disabled lion keys purchases for belgian players (even if the law is practical since april 2018) and I wanted to know if you had more information and / or real ways to fix that issues ?

I think a 18+ captcha or an ID verification could not be that hard to implement in the game ! Since a VISA card is kinda somekind of ID verification (kids can't have it) and even adults has to justify their acquisition.

Disabling the keys is their permanent fix/solution as far as I can see, given they reworked the Black Lion UI specifically for affected territories

https://help.guildwars2.com/hc/en-us/articles/360001978607

@"Randulf.7614" said:Disabling the keys is their permanent fix/solution as far as I can see, given they reworked the Black Lion UI specifically for affected territories

https://help.guildwars2.com/hc/en-us/articles/360001978607

since gambling games aren't forbidden ... I don't get why they'll permanently remove this ... It would be really a too easy answer

@Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

@"Randulf.7614" said:Disabling the keys is their permanent fix/solution as far as I can see, given they reworked the Black Lion UI specifically for affected territories

https://help.guildwars2.com/hc/en-us/articles/360001978607

it isn't forbidden but it does come with several restrictions and regulations which will negatively affect the game's profit, especially since irl money is involved

A possible solution would be to allow players to buy Black Lion Statuettes directly. That way Belgians would have access to exclusive BL Chest items as those are usually added to the vendors when they leave the chest.

@Yannir.4132 said:A possible solution would be to allow players to buy Black Lion Statuettes directly. That way Belgians would have access to exclusive BL Chest items as those are usually added to the vendors when they leave the chest.

I think this would be a wise decision. Though I would say something that would help is if the affected areas get a comparable cost to statuette ratio. IE: For 1 key players are guaranteed 1 statuette and 3 other items, so charging the same cost as a key would be a bit much imo. With that, I think 125gem : 3 statuette ratio for the affected players would be a suitable compromise.

Another option would be an overhaul of the BL Chests to allow players to pick the two common items they want when opening a chest with a normal key. With a silver key they can pick 1 uncommon item in addition to the 2 common items, with a gold key they can pick either 1 rare item or 2 uncommon items and 2 common items. The gold key can offer an option to forego all other loot for a voucher to use towards purchasing the most exotic items the BL Chests offer. Such would be a HUGE overhaul, but would revolutionize how loot boxes work for the future. It would also help drive sales as Silver and Gold keys would be more desired in the long run. But then again, all of this could be considered madness by some...even the Mad King may think so.

we all know 18+ captcha or an ID verification wont work, just check how many teenage boys are checking out 'prawn'

it's the only solution they can see without getting taken to court and slapped with a fine; plus, a lot of other EU countries are also examining the same issue within their own countries, so more countries could be locked out from getting BL keys

@Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:since gambling games aren't forbidden ... I don't get why they'll permanently remove this ... It would be really a too easy answerANet hasn't removed any of these items. They have just disallowed people with Belgian IP addresses to purchase them. The Belgian Gaming commission has ruled that any purchase using real money that doesn't return a specific item counts as gambling. It's not about whether kids can spend or not, it's about it being regulated as gambling. If ANet wants to sell these items to you, they'd need to get a license and be regulated similar to a casino. It's not that it's illegal, it's that it's suddenly a ton of effort for something that's supposed to be a straightforward source of revenue for ANet a lark for players.

The people that can change this are in Brussels, not Seattle. But I wouldn't expect them to revisit this any time soon. Neither regulators nor politicians like to admit that they made a hasty decision and failed to recognize all the consequences or see all the nuances of new laws or regulations.

The only real solution is have enough people complain to politicians. Their decisions were purely made to make themselves look good, with no care for consumers, as such, it makes no sense to blame devs/publishers.

@Yamazuki.6073 said:The only real solution is have enough people complain to politicians. Their decisions were purely made to make themselves look good, with no care for consumers, as such, it makes no sense to blame devs/publishers.

thats a nice opinion. mine is complety different. i will highly apreciate when the system will be implimentet eu wide.

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said:since gambling games aren't forbidden ... I don't get why they'll permanently remove this ... It would be really a too easy answerANet hasn't removed any of these items. They have just disallowed people with Belgian IP addresses to purchase them. The Belgian Gaming commission has ruled that any purchase using real money that doesn't return a specific item counts as gambling. It's not about whether kids can spend or not, it's about it being regulated as

gambling

. If ANet wants to sell these items to you, they'd need to get a license and be regulated similar to a casino. It's not that it's illegal, it's that it's suddenly a ton of effort for something that's supposed to be a straightforward source of revenue for ANet a lark for players.

You are just exploiting my bad english here XD I know it's not removed (but from my perspective it kinda is ... even if it's just disabled) but still ... that's not the issue.They just disabled it cause they were scared of being "outlaws" (LUL)

@crepuscular.9047 said:we all know 18+ captcha or an ID verification wont work, just check how many teenage boys are checking out 'prawn'

it's the only solution they can see without getting taken to court and slapped with a fine; plus, a lot of other EU countries are also examining the same issue within their own countries, so more countries could be locked out from getting BL keys

if it works or not doesn't matter . The important point is that there's some control (even if they can be bypassed easily or hardly) just to prevent some excess. I think there's the money intake too ... taxation or some crazy thing that stupid governement has decided.

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:The people that can change this are in Brussels, not Seattle. But I wouldn't expect them to revisit this any time soon. Neither regulators nor politicians like to admit that they made a hasty decision and failed to recognize all the consequences or see all the nuances of new laws or regulations.

Although not a Belgian, I don't think it was hasty decision. I'm basically hoping to have bit similar in my home country. Why? Because I really think that if you put money to something that plays RNG with you is gambling, being it blackjack or roulette table, a slot machine or a loot box. The different story is what kind of regulations should these gambling companies fulfill to keep their business.

@sigur.9453 said:

@"Yamazuki.6073" said:The only real solution is have enough people complain to politicians. Their decisions were purely made to make themselves look good, with no care for consumers, as such, it makes no sense to blame devs/publishers.

What I stated isn't an opinion. It is a fact most politicians have no clue how games even work, many had even been against the idea of video games even existing and only "changed their mind" when the business became big. You are praising politicians for doing a copy/paste legislation, as in, they did absolutely no work, and didn't put any thought into it. They didn't even do the bare minimum and work with the major European nations to come up with a solution to stop predatory monetization systems, which you do not need loot boxes to be predatory. Ever look at some of the Chinese MMORPGs or some of the older Korean games? How about mobile games? They get people to spend an absurd amount of money without relying on RNG boxes alone. European game publishers have a history of having some of the worst monetization practices to the point they make Nexon look good.

France has already stated they didn't consider loot boxes an issue as a whole, they were only against how mobile games and certain games were abusing them, such as forcing you to pay for RNG boxes in order to progress through the game. The UK and the US also ruled it wasn't gambling, and the politicians who spoke against RNG boxes also shared the same opinion as French politicians. This means anyone complaining about BLC and saying politicians agree are wrong. As it stands now, nothing will change for most Europeans, because you need the major consuming nations to pass the legislation [uK, France, Germany].

I don't even like RNG boxes, almost all of the BLCs I've opened were free, and on other games I don't buy them either, and even limit how much I'll buy with gold. I am simply not going to praise politicians and pretend they care about "protecting" me, when they don't.

@"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said:You are just exploiting my bad english here XD I know it's not removed (but from my perspective it kinda is ... even if it's just disabled) but still ... that's not the issue.They just disabled it cause they were scared of being "outlaws" (LUL)

No, I was not "exploiting" your bad English (I actually didn't think your English was 'bad', especially if you know that "it's not removed").

@TamX.1870 said:

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:The people that can change this are in Brussels, not Seattle. But I wouldn't expect them to revisit this any time soon. Neither regulators nor politicians like to admit that they made a hasty decision and failed to recognize all the consequences or see all the nuances of new laws or regulations.

It's one thing to say that RNG boxes in video games are inappropriate. It's quite another thing to say that they are comparable to roulette or lottos or blackjack and should be regulated the same way. That's what I mean by hasty.

There's clearly horrid & predatory practices that take place in some games, most especially in games for tablets & phones (which are much more likely to affect kids, but also adults with poor impulse control). There's clearly some value in governments taking a look at it. But going directly from "we don't like this" to "let's define it as gambling and regulate the same way" instead of discussing it first with industry leaders is "hasty." It's an important issue, but it's not urgent in the same way that other issues are.

tl;dr I'm not against the idea that government has a role to play. I think that the Belgian gambling commission's response was heavy handed and there were lots of other steps they could have taken first, which probably would have resulted in a better situation for everyone.

@Yamazuki.6073 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@Yamazuki.6073 said:The only real solution is have enough people complain to politicians. Their decisions were purely made to make themselves look good, with no care for consumers, as such, it makes no sense to blame devs/publishers.

im not praising them for protecting me. it simply gives more reason for game companies to release there product less gemshop centric (which is one of the worst things in gw2 for example)i see you trust in politicians is broken (with good reasons to be honest) but not everything is per se bad. sure they could do things better, especially when it comes to techrelated issues (#neuland) but in my OPINION these are steps in the right direction. for to long it has been "wild west" mentality in games .(i do whatever i want, give me your money please)

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@TamX.1870 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:The people that can change this are in Brussels, not Seattle. But I wouldn't expect them to revisit this any time soon. Neither regulators nor politicians like to admit that they made a hasty decision and failed to recognize all the consequences or see all the nuances of new laws or regulations.

who is "everyone" in this scenario? i would be perfectly fine if i won´t be able to buy blc´s or gems aswell. it´s on (in this scenario) anet to maybe change their monetization model or not change and loose a customer.

@Yannir.4132 said:A possible solution would be to allow players to buy Black Lion Statuettes directly. That way Belgians would have access to exclusive BL Chest items as those are usually added to the vendors when they leave the chest.+1At least give me a possibility to get the same skins.Now I have to farm 60 keys trough map completion and weekly lvl 10 quests.Also the mounts pack. Make a select version of the first one. I cant get 30 mount skins.

I understand it feels unfair to you, but for Anet its probably not profitable to implement something else just for Belgium. Someone mentioned they could sell you statuettes directly, thats not a bad idea.

It's the same with contests. I hate it when they release some promotion of the game or contest but some countries (usually mine too) are not allowed to participate. Make it for all your players or dont make it at all.

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:It's one thing to say that RNG boxes in video games are inappropriate. It's quite another thing to say that they are comparable to roulette or lottos or blackjack and should be regulated the same way.

I know what you mean. @sigur.9453 already summarized pretty much everything I liked to say, so that I have not much to add. RNG lotteries with real money and pay-to-win monetization are bit different thing. In pay-to-win game you know where your money go, even that I don't usually like such way to grab the money from your pockets. RNG lootboxes and slot machines are not a problem for majority of people, but there are people who gets obsessed. I find it bit disturbing to get money by abusing such disabilities, even more because most people are vulnerable to such abusement occasionally: you desperately want something (like mount skin or something) and your only options are RNG lootboxes, how much money are you willing to loose to all those unwanted pieces before giving up? The more you have put money in, the harder it is to give up. IMO, such way to monetize a game is unethical anyways, even if it is not illegal.

Like sigur said, asking game industry for these subjects is probably not the best thing to do. Having not any kind of regulations doesn't IMO lead to any good solutions, we would just get much more games which try to hook gamblers to get their money. Best thing would be that we as players would not fall in the lootboxes and game industry would give up offering them, but that is sadly high hope.

@sigur.9453 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@TamX.1870 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:The people that can change this are in Brussels, not Seattle. But I wouldn't expect them to revisit this any time soon. Neither regulators nor politicians like to admit that they made a hasty decision and failed to recognize all the consequences or see all the nuances of new laws or regulations.

Im fine with you and people who think its awful with the gem shop to pay a sub to play gw2 and get to use what ever in said gem shop( all being account locked and no gifting ofcourse, so no thinking of opening millions of black lion chest and sell the skins =) ) aslong as I dont have too.Then when you stop paying your account is locked, like games as wow etc.

@Linken.6345 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@TamX.1870 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:The people that can change this are in Brussels, not Seattle. But I wouldn't expect them to revisit this any time soon. Neither regulators nor politicians like to admit that they made a hasty decision and failed to recognize all the consequences or see all the nuances of new laws or regulations.

Would totally be fine with that. As long as I can get said skins in game via achievement, loot, whatever I would gladly pay a sub fee.

@Linken.6345 said:Im fine with you and people who think its awful with the gem shop to pay a sub to play gw2 and get to use what ever in said gem shop( all being account locked and no gifting ofcourse, so no thinking of opening millions of black lion chest and sell the skins =) ) aslong as I dont have too.Then when you stop paying your account is locked, like games as wow etc.

I didn't get your point, really... Subscription and RNG lootboxes are def not mutually exclusive, you can have both in the same game. What is my point, is that if you pay, you should know what you get. Think a game with monthly subscription, so that if you pay your monthly fee, you have 20% chances to get it. If you didn't get it that in the RNG roll, you could try again to pay, and hope for the best.

RNG lootboxes - in form that they may contain things you can't acquire in any other way - are definitely not the only way to make money with the content you have created, and definitely not the most ethic one.

Asking for the input of industry leaders is a very bad idea. They have all the motivation to say and do anything to minimise the risk of reduced profits. Consumers and academics who study related phenomena are far more capable of giving objective and fair analysis, anyway, offering both sound scientific methodology and lived experiences. Besides, the laws raised up in these discussions aren't even new. They were designed with gambling in mind, it's not their authors' fault that video game companies decided to use techniques that fall under the definitions of those laws.

For example, Finland's Lotteries Act 1047/2001 very clearly puts BLCs into the category of lotteries. Same with good old Valve's CS loot boxes, which were already mentioned in a statement by the police's lotteries commission as being a target of a criminal investigation. It's only a matter of time before Finland's police sends a cease and desist letter to ArenaNet, as well.

Loot boxes are exploitative, after all. I'll be happier once all of EU finally adopts these regulations, as seems unavoidable.

@Quenrich.8471 said:Loot boxes are exploitative, after all. I'll be happier once all of EU finally adopts these regulations, as seems unavoidable.

I fully agree. RNG based business tends to be unethic and lead to all kinds of cheats, if it is not regulated.