The matchmaker needs to block Herald + Holosmith comps. — Guild Wars 2 Forums

The matchmaker needs to block Herald + Holosmith comps.

Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭

Comps with both Herald and Holosmith (hereby referred to as H+H comp) are too strong with no real drawbacks

What are Herald and Holosmith?
Herald and Holosmith are both multirole damage dealers. Both classes offer heavy spike damage capabilities in addition to above average amounts of CC. They both have large amounts of boon generation and utility value. They also have well above average amounts of mobility for what are obstinately brawling classes. Both classes are extremely competitive in their own right, but together they create absolute monster of a comp that isn't really counterable short of just mirroring it.

Why is H+H comp a problem at all?
Herald and Holosmith are able to synergize with each other allowing for the two together to offer a package that is immune to weaknesses that the two classes have individually.

For engaging, the Herald is able to prebuff the Holosmith with might and fury, while the Holosmith for it's part is able to provide the Herald with Stealth via Toss Elixir S. This combination allows for extremely difficult to predict alpha spikes that are also nearly impossible to survive due the absolute insane amount of damage and hard CC the duo puts out. Additionally the Holosmith is able to provide the Herald with Quickness via Toss Elixir U. The Holosmith also provides supplemental Vulnerability application that keeps the Herald's vuln-dependant Devastation traits well fed. In terms of sustain the Holosmith provides a limited amount of AoE healing that augments the Herald's largely avoidance based defenses. The Herald for it's part provides additional boons for the Holosmith. More importantly the Herald brings two AoE CCs to the table in the form of Jade Winds and Chaotic release which are important for shutting down anyone that might attempt to rescue the poor soul that is the target of the H+H duo's wrath.

What makes the H+H comp particularly unmanageable is the unprecedented amounts of hard and soft CC the comp can bring to bear. The Herald has 4 hard CC skills on 20/45/5/5 second cooldowns, and 3 soft CCs on 6/15/15 second cooldowns. The Holosmith has 3 hard CC skills on 14/15/60* second cooldowns with 2 soft CC skills on 8/9 second cooldowns. Taken together the duo can keep a target permanently controlled preventing the target any change of recovery should they have somehow managed to survive the duo's alpha. This heavy amount of CC also makes it extremely difficult to pressure the duo. Not even Stability will save you, the Herald has a AoE boonrip on Shiro and will likely be using a Annulment sigil.

Rotationally the H+H duo can dominate both teamfights and offnode fights. The duo has well above average rotation speed/general mobility which allows for easy map dominance and snowballing. This mobility also makes out rotating the pair extremely difficult. Moreover both Herald and Holosmith are fully capable of functioning independent of each other should the need arise.

In terms of matchups the pair are able to negate each other's weaknesses. A Herald might normally be extremely vulnerable to a Mesmer, however the Holosmith is able to shut down a Mesmer. The Holomith would normally be vulnerable to counterpressure from his target's teammates, but the Herald can easily shut down any counterpressure with it's multiple AoE control effects.

What makes H+H any scarier than traditional duos like Scourge + Firebrand or Mesmer + Teef?
Unlike more antiquated duos, the H+H comp has no exploitable weaknesses. Scourge + Firebrand for example rotates poorly, additionally the Scourge cannot function independent of the firebrand which limits the duo's flexibility. Mesmer + Teef on the other hand rotates superbly but is limited in it's ability to influence teamfights and struggles against team with lots of bunking power. H+H comp is able to influence teamfights and offnode fights, and has the mobility to rotate between those. The ability of the pair to function independent of each other allows for greater flexibility should that flexibility be needed.

Why block the H+H comp instead of just nerfing Holo?
Holosmith and Herald when by themselves are much more manageable. They are still quite competitive, Holosmith is particular is probably a bit too competitive even by itself, but nerfing one or both sufficiently hard enough to make the H+H comp more balanced would likely just kill the class's viability altogether. Simply put the H+H comp's power is more than the sum of Herald and Holosmith.

HOW DARE YOU IMPLY REV IS USEFUL IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCE!
While Revenant as a class suffers from nonexistent build diversity that does not change the fact that Power Herald has one of the most robust and versatile toolkits in the game and offers large amounts of carrying power to the player willing to spend the time to master the class. Granted it is a very difficult class to learn as the devs decided to design it to be arbitrarily difficult to pick up for no apparent reason, which is why you don't see many revs. That still does not change that the class is a powerhouse at higher levels of play.

*Depends on if the Holosmith is using Prime Light Beam or Elixir X for their ult.

Sanity is for the weak minded
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Comments

  • enter the reaper

    you don't know till you know, ya know.

  • Bossun.2046Bossun.2046 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't agree with this at all. Both pre- buffing and stealth openers are not exclusive to a H+H comp. Not only that but other comps are able to be as effective in controlling the map. Also, unless the Holo is the less bursty conversion build they would need to kite away to properly sustain themselves specially when facing something like a Condi Scourge/Condi Mesmer in a 2v2. If HLA isn't being ran then it is a tough fight on the H+H comp. I assume you mean that Queing up as a duo should not be allowed, right? Cus in solo queue I sure doubt that people taking perfect advantage of their potential synergy is just impossible XD

    While it is true that both specs can be very strong when in the right hands, the same can be said about the other profession who imo, don't fall too far behind when meeting the right conditions.

    Scourge/FB- dominate any fight they jump in. From mAT streams, Scourge/FB vs Scourge/FB on a node is necessary with the occasional +1.

    Teef/mesmer- burst/+1/rotations are unmatched. You can only scape if a passive procs or you saw it coming, having taken the necessary steps to avoid it. CC and dps are strong.

    Should these Duos be allowed?

    sugoi monogatari oniichan

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 16, 2018

    I mean, if we're banning class combos, can we please talk about thief and rev? Or mesmer and scourge? Because it's complete kitten to try against these two.

    Realistically, this boils down to class balance -- tap down the overperformers, buff the underperformers, do a little dance until the next meta comes up, rinse and repeat.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • Silence.3702Silence.3702 Member ✭✭✭

    Put condi mirage and reaper against "h+h" and lets see who wins

    Cries in ele

  • Exedore.6320Exedore.6320 Member ✭✭✭

    Or just admit both have huge amounts of power creep and nerf both.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    we all know what the real problem is. it starts with h and ends with olo

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • phokus.8934phokus.8934 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Silence.3702 said:
    Put condi mirage and reaper against "h+h" and lets see who wins

    This is overlooked when going up against a Rev. It's as if people stopped using their brains.

    @Exedore.6320 said:
    Or just admit both have huge amounts of power creep and nerf both.

    Rev and huge amounts of power creep? This forum gets worse with every post...

  • Mbelch.9028Mbelch.9028 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I don’t disagree with this post totally, but there are a lot of combos that are strong. I don’t think you can ban any combos without first addressing all OP combos. I don’t think for example you’ll be able to convince me that H&H&M could stop Fb&Reaper&M.

    Last, I agree that holo survive needs a few shaves, as does Rev damage (in exchange for defensive buffs).

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    we all know what the real problem is. it starts with h and ends with olo

    Says the thief. Every class has a counter. Good thieves actually can dismantle Holos. What’s your prob with them?

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    enter the reaper

    So Reaper a class that is notorious for being easy to spike is your solution to a comp that specializes in spiking things?

    I don't think that matchup works the way you think it does.

    @Vagrant.7206 said:
    I mean, if we're banning class combos, can we please talk about thief and rev? Or mesmer and scourge? Because it's complete kitten to try against these two.

    I am not sure why you think Scourge + Mesmer is thing? The Scourge is too slow to rotate with the Mesmer and the Mesmer does not have the support capabilities to keep the scourge alive either. Thief + rev hasn't been a thing since PoF dropped.

    @Bossun.2046 said:
    I don't agree with this at all. Both pre- buffing and stealth openers are not exclusive to a H+H comp. Not only that but other comps are able to be as effective in controlling the map. Also, unless the Holo is the less bursty conversion build they would need to kite away to properly sustain themselves specially when facing something like a Condi Scourge/Condi Mesmer in a 2v2. If HLA isn't being ran then it is a tough fight on the H+H comp. I assume you mean that Queing up as a duo should not be allowed, right? Cus in solo queue I sure doubt that people taking perfect advantage of their potential synergy is just impossible XD

    While it is true that both specs can be very strong when in the right hands, the same can be said about the other profession who imo, don't fall too far behind when meeting the right conditions.

    Scourge/FB- dominate any fight they jump in. From mAT streams, Scourge/FB vs Scourge/FB on a node is necessary with the occasional +1.

    Teef/mesmer- burst/+1/rotations are unmatched. You can only scape if a passive procs or you saw it coming, having taken the necessary steps to avoid it. CC and dps are strong.

    Should these Duos be allowed?

    See this passage since you obviously didn't read it the first time:

    @Crinn.7864 said:
    What makes H+H any scarier than traditional duos like Scourge + Firebrand or Mesmer + Teef?
    Unlike more antiquated duos, the H+H comp has no exploitable weaknesses. Scourge + Firebrand for example rotates poorly, additionally the Scourge cannot function independent of the firebrand which limits the duo's flexibility. Mesmer + Teef on the other hand rotates superbly but is limited in it's ability to influence teamfights and struggles against team with lots of bunking power. H+H comp is able to influence teamfights and offnode fights, and has the mobility to rotate between those. The ability of the pair to function independent of each other allows for greater flexibility should that flexibility be needed.

    Scourge has already dropped out of the solo queue meta as of 3 months ago and will probably drop out of the tournament meta before December. Scourge's damage output isn't as formidable as it was, and we are rapidly reaching the point where the class's weaknesses outweigh it's usefulness.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
    YouTube

  • Exedore.6320Exedore.6320 Member ✭✭✭

    @phokus.8934 said:

    @Exedore.6320 said:
    Or just admit both have huge amounts of power creep and nerf both.

    Rev and huge amounts of power creep? This forum gets worse with every post...

    Rev main detected. Being able to burst someone as quickly as Rev does when it couldn't do that 2 years ago? Ya, that's power creep.

  • Bossun.2046Bossun.2046 Member ✭✭✭

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    enter the reaper

    So Reaper a class that is notorious for being easy to spike is your solution to a comp that specializes in spiking things?

    I don't think that matchup works the way you think it does.

    @Vagrant.7206 said:
    I mean, if we're banning class combos, can we please talk about thief and rev? Or mesmer and scourge? Because it's complete kitten to try against these two.

    I am not sure why you think Scourge + Mesmer is thing? The Scourge is too slow to rotate with the Mesmer and the Mesmer does not have the support capabilities to keep the scourge alive either. Thief + rev hasn't been a thing since PoF dropped.

    @Bossun.2046 said:
    I don't agree with this at all. Both pre- buffing and stealth openers are not exclusive to a H+H comp. Not only that but other comps are able to be as effective in controlling the map. Also, unless the Holo is the less bursty conversion build they would need to kite away to properly sustain themselves specially when facing something like a Condi Scourge/Condi Mesmer in a 2v2. If HLA isn't being ran then it is a tough fight on the H+H comp. I assume you mean that Queing up as a duo should not be allowed, right? Cus in solo queue I sure doubt that people taking perfect advantage of their potential synergy is just impossible XD

    While it is true that both specs can be very strong when in the right hands, the same can be said about the other profession who imo, don't fall too far behind when meeting the right conditions.

    Scourge/FB- dominate any fight they jump in. From mAT streams, Scourge/FB vs Scourge/FB on a node is necessary with the occasional +1.

    Teef/mesmer- burst/+1/rotations are unmatched. You can only scape if a passive procs or you saw it coming, having taken the necessary steps to avoid it. CC and dps are strong.

    Should these Duos be allowed?

    See this passage since you obviously didn't read it the first time:

    @Crinn.7864 said:
    What makes H+H any scarier than traditional duos like Scourge + Firebrand or Mesmer + Teef?
    Unlike more antiquated duos, the H+H comp has no exploitable weaknesses. Scourge + Firebrand for example rotates poorly, additionally the Scourge cannot function independent of the firebrand which limits the duo's flexibility. Mesmer + Teef on the other hand rotates superbly but is limited in it's ability to influence teamfights and struggles against team with lots of bunking power. H+H comp is able to influence teamfights and offnode fights, and has the mobility to rotate between those. The ability of the pair to function independent of each other allows for greater flexibility should that flexibility be needed.

    Scourge has already dropped out of the solo queue meta as of 3 months ago and will probably drop out of the tournament meta before December. Scourge's damage output isn't as formidable as it was, and we are rapidly reaching the point where the class's weaknesses outweigh it's usefulness.

    Okay, and I am saying that others can be just as scary. Just because I don't directly quote that sentence doesn't mean that I avoided the topic. Maybe giving my post another read through can help. :)

    And yeah, I agree on how scourge is falling out of solo queue meta. All those names that popped up after Scourge release are now non-existent lol. And if things continue to go as they are, then they'll be out of tournament play too. But as of now, they too fit the same narrative placed on the H+H comp ; removing each other's weakness and perfect potential synergy.

    So I assume that you are okay with that duo being allowed? Even if the scourge nerfs were reversed? :open_mouth:

    sugoi monogatari oniichan

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    @Exedore.6320 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:

    @Exedore.6320 said:
    Or just admit both have huge amounts of power creep and nerf both.

    Rev and huge amounts of power creep? This forum gets worse with every post...

    Rev main detected. Being able to burst someone as quickly as Rev does when it couldn't do that 2 years ago? Ya, that's power creep.

    Thats more like repairing...

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion.
    06210311 251521 121512

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Exedore.6320 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:

    @Exedore.6320 said:
    Or just admit both have huge amounts of power creep and nerf both.

    Rev and huge amounts of power creep? This forum gets worse with every post...

    Rev main detected. Being able to burst someone as quickly as Rev does when it couldn't do that 2 years ago? Ya, that's power creep.

    Thats more like repairing...

    Also I remember revs being a one trick pony when they were released. With one hits from SotM on my - admitted - squishy build that time.^^ Now that skill just doesn't do any damage anymore...

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Exedore.6320 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:

    @Exedore.6320 said:
    Or just admit both have huge amounts of power creep and nerf both.

    Rev and huge amounts of power creep? This forum gets worse with every post...

    Rev main detected. Being able to burst someone as quickly as Rev does when it couldn't do that 2 years ago? Ya, that's power creep.

    Thats more like repairing...

    Also I remember revs being a one trick pony when they were released. With one hits from SotM on my - admitted - squishy build that time.^^ Now that skill just doesn't do any damage anymore...

    That and the Hammer in WvW...

    Just speaking for myself but I see a lot of Revs, but Id say only 1/10 aren't a free kill... The other 9 are sort of just there, they dont pose any threat to the match except capping an empty point if you know what I mean...

    (Gold 1 to plat 1 ranks and everything else the match maker throws at me perspective, could be different in the highest/lower brackets)

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion.
    06210311 251521 121512

  • phokus.8934phokus.8934 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Exedore.6320 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:

    @Exedore.6320 said:
    Or just admit both have huge amounts of power creep and nerf both.

    Rev and huge amounts of power creep? This forum gets worse with every post...

    Rev main detected. Being able to burst someone as quickly as Rev does when it couldn't do that 2 years ago? Ya, that's power creep.

    Not a Rev main but I don’t scream nonsense when I die to someone. Like I said, use your brain and think objectively, it’ll help you out in the real world, I promise you.

  • @Exedore.6320 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:

    @Exedore.6320 said:
    Or just admit both have huge amounts of power creep and nerf both.

    Rev and huge amounts of power creep? This forum gets worse with every post...

    Rev main detected. Being able to burst someone as quickly as Rev does when it couldn't do that 2 years ago? Ya, that's power creep.

    There is nothing creepy about power. You should learn to embrace it. Tame it. Use it for your own purpose or by the fury of God, will it be used against you. Such is the one rule of life: to survive. All of those historical species' that complained died out, with good reason as well. The only way to the top is to adapt.

    Destiny has arrived...or shall we say, I have.

    twitch.tv/ThanosGW2

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:
    I mean, if we're banning class combos, can we please talk about thief and rev? Or mesmer and scourge? Because it's complete kitten to try against these two.

    I am not sure why you think Scourge + Mesmer is thing? The Scourge is too slow to rotate with the Mesmer and the Mesmer does not have the support capabilities to keep the scourge alive either. Thief + rev hasn't been a thing since PoF dropped.

    You combine condi mirage and condi scourge... it's ugly.

    My point though is that class combinations are nothing new. Some classes have always had good synergy -- guardian and necro have always gotten along, for instance. Engineers tend to compliment other engineers. Banning a single combination because you don't like it is kind of preposterous.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There are tons of other combinations that are as powerful, if not more powerful. Also, match making does not work this way and never would.

  • idolin.2831idolin.2831 Member ✭✭✭

    @Mbelch.9028 said:
    I don’t disagree with this post totally, but there are a lot of combos that are strong. I don’t think you can ban any combos without first addressing all OP combos. I don’t think for example you’ll be able to convince me that H&H&M could stop Fb&Reaper&M.

    Last, I agree that holo survive needs a few shaves, as does Rev damage (in exchange for defensive buffs).

    @Exedore.6320 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:

    @Exedore.6320 said:
    Or just admit both have huge amounts of power creep and nerf both.

    Rev and huge amounts of power creep? This forum gets worse with every post...

    Rev main detected. Being able to burst someone as quickly as Rev does when it couldn't do that 2 years ago? Ya, that's power creep.

    Hmm Rev was JUST nerfed - Incensed Response now gives 2 instead of 5 stacks of might (which is reasonable), and was given no defensive buffs.

  • Euthymias.7984Euthymias.7984 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    No it shouldn't.
    If not for this combo, you'd probably complain about Holo+Mirage pair-ups, or Holo+Core Guard, or Mirage+Rev.
    There will always be combinations that can lead to a powerful coordinated burst if they work together as a Duelist and a +1 on one node. Just adjust your rotations/tactics or your composition in response instead of asking for an improbable ban. If you're fighting on node, you should always be mindful that you could be jumped by a Rev/Guardian/Mirage/Thief roaming the map and react accordingly.

  • Mbelch.9028Mbelch.9028 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @idolin.2831 said:

    @Mbelch.9028 said:
    I don’t disagree with this post totally, but there are a lot of combos that are strong. I don’t think you can ban any combos without first addressing all OP combos. I don’t think for example you’ll be able to convince me that H&H&M could stop Fb&Reaper&M.

    Last, I agree that holo survive needs a few shaves, as does Rev damage (in exchange for defensive buffs).

    @Exedore.6320 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:

    @Exedore.6320 said:
    Or just admit both have huge amounts of power creep and nerf both.

    Rev and huge amounts of power creep? This forum gets worse with every post...

    Rev main detected. Being able to burst someone as quickly as Rev does when it couldn't do that 2 years ago? Ya, that's power creep.

    Hmm Rev was JUST nerfed - Incensed Response now gives 2 instead of 5 stacks of might (which is reasonable), and was given no defensive buffs.

    Definitely a reasonable nerf. I think it should have received an extra condi remove on a condi removal skill for the reduction of might, but I don't make the balance :(

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Good Firebrand duos are way stronger than 2 damager duos.

  • so if I understand OPs point, synergies should be banned from due queue?
    (what OP is describing is book definition of synergistic comp - where overal is more than mere sum of it's part)

    (in case anyone thought my sPvP background is relevant to the interpetation of OPs post, I've played a couple of matches in guard in pre-hot era, and couple of matches yesterday in randomly assembled herald, were first were friendly duels in empty room with a guildmate and in latter I was figuring out what the heck I am doing ;) )

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So basically the arguments against this thread boil down to people believing that all duos are created equal.

    Any duo involving either a necro or a guard can be easily outrotated as those are the two slowest rotating classes in the game. Randomly inventing duo comps involving mirage on the grounds that "mirage is OP so anything involving mirage must be better than H+H" is just bad logic.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
    YouTube

  • Kako.1930Kako.1930 Member ✭✭✭

    @Crinn.7864 said:
    So basically the arguments against this thread boil down to people believing that all duos are created equal.

    Any duo involving either a necro or a guard can be easily outrotated as those are the two slowest rotating classes in the game. Randomly inventing duo comps involving mirage on the grounds that "mirage is OP so anything involving mirage must be better than H+H" is just bad logic.

    The duos aren't all equal but it's kind of unrealistic to ask for the matchmaker to make it impossible for holosmith and herald to appear on the same team, isn't it?

  • @Kako.1930 said:

    @Crinn.7864 said:
    So basically the arguments against this thread boil down to people believing that all duos are created equal.

    Any duo involving either a necro or a guard can be easily outrotated as those are the two slowest rotating classes in the game. Randomly inventing duo comps involving mirage on the grounds that "mirage is OP so anything involving mirage must be better than H+H" is just bad logic.

    The duos aren't all equal but it's kind of unrealistic to ask for the matchmaker to make it impossible for holosmith and herald to appear on the same team, isn't it?

    It's not just unrealistic, it's discriminatory.

  • Bossun.2046Bossun.2046 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 20, 2018

    Oopppsss double post

    sugoi monogatari oniichan

  • Bossun.2046Bossun.2046 Member ✭✭✭

    @Crinn.7864 said:
    So basically the arguments against this thread boil down to people believing that all duos are created equal.

    Any duo involving either a necro or a guard can be easily outrotated as those are the two slowest rotating classes in the game. Randomly inventing duo comps involving mirage on the grounds that "mirage is OP so anything involving mirage must be better than H+H" is just bad logic.

    LMAO, like since when is this H+H duo a thing itself? Those what, handfull of times that you saw it happen? Any coordinated attack can be devastating and ignoring that is just bias. Any coordinated duo, especially those who synergize well has a high chance of shutting down the other team. Even if their rotation speed is one of the slowest.

    Or is this a subtle call to a Holo Nerf? "Holo is OP so anything involving a holo must be better than everything else"

    sugoi monogatari oniichan

  • Arlette.9684Arlette.9684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crinn.7864 said:
    So basically the arguments against this thread boil down to people believing that all duos are created equal.

    Any duo involving either a necro or a guard can be easily outrotated as those are the two slowest rotating classes in the game. Randomly inventing duo comps involving mirage on the grounds that "mirage is OP so anything involving mirage must be better than H+H" is just bad logic.

    While I did appreciate the thorough showcase, your suggestion is in direct contradiction with ANET's policy of inclusiveness. It's just not a feasible request.

    Vae Victus!
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  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There's all sorts of synergies in team comps and duos. I don't understand why you think Holo and Herald stands out.

    Just to name a few:

    • Thief + Thief
    • Thief + Engineer
    • Engineer + Engineer
    • Necro + Guard
    • Mesmer + Thief
    • Warrior + Mesmer

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

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