Joko’s past — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Joko’s past

Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

So you can read some of the books following the new Halloween collection. Has done interesting details of Jokos past.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Thorn's_Trophy_Shelf

Comments

  • Does this allow us to conclude that Palawa Ignaciuous Joko was indeed an elonian noble, son to a diplomat, but ultimately a courtier?
    Still he's the one to commission love letters to himself, since nobody else would. It also indicates that he was a contemporary of Oswald Thorn, so he most likely did not witness the time of the Gods or even seen an Elder Dragon in the flesh. Still, he was a very keen necromancer, his expertise in raising the undead allowed him to rule a Kingdom and crush all opposition.
    Unfortunately for him, the commander is not someone who's looking for rivals, but a Human/Sylvari/Asura/Charr/Norn on a mission to save the world. He'll have to spend his time in the Mists with his childhood rivals. I'm sure he'll fit right in.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Castigator.3470 said:
    Does this allow us to conclude that Palawa Ignaciuous Joko was indeed an elonian noble, son to a diplomat, but ultimately a courtier?
    Still he's the one to commission love letters to himself, since nobody else would. It also indicates that he was a contemporary of Oswald Thorn, so he most likely did not witness the time of the Gods or even seen an Elder Dragon in the flesh. Still, he was a very keen necromancer, his expertise in raising the undead allowed him to rule a Kingdom and crush all opposition.
    Unfortunately for him, the commander is not someone who's looking for rivals, but a Human/Sylvari/Asura/Charr/Norn on a mission to save the world. He'll have to spend his time in the Mists with his childhood rivals. I'm sure he'll fit right in.

    He actually talks about here that he made up the birth of the gods bit as shown here.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Scourge_of_Vabbi's_To-Do_List

    He also had a teacher in the necromatic arts. There is still no explanation on the “lichness” perhaps it’s a secret ability his teacher knew.

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2018

    Wasn't he Krytan first?

    Allow me to catch you up: Everyone in Kryta is an idiot and I hate it here.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2018

    @Arden.7480 said:
    Wasn't he Krytan first?

    Allow me to catch you up: Everyone in Kryta is an idiot and I hate it here.

    Private Property of P.I. Joko

    DO NOT TOUCH

    Dear Diary,

    Allow me to catch you up: Everyone in Kryta is an idiot and I hate it here.

    [...]

    I will be overjoyed when this ordeal of Mother's diplomatic tours comes to an end.

    Joko wasn't a Krytan. He visited Kryta during one of his mother's diplomatic tours.


    These books seem off to me, as the dates and ages provided would indicate that Oswald Thorn was over 80 when he died. But all lore on Ozzy indicates that he didn't live a long reign, and suggests - to me - a death while in his 50s.

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Arden.7480 said:
    Wasn't he Krytan first?

    Allow me to catch you up: Everyone in Kryta is an idiot and I hate it here.

    Private Property of P.I. Joko

    DO NOT TOUCH

    Dear Diary,

    Allow me to catch you up: Everyone in Kryta is an idiot and I hate it here.

    [...]

    I will be overjoyed when this ordeal of Mother's diplomatic tours comes to an end.

    Joko wasn't a Krytan. He visited Kryta during one of his mother's diplomatic tours.


    These books seem off to me, as the dates and ages provided would indicate that Oswald Thorn was over 80 when he died. But all lore on Ozzy indicates that he didn't live a long reign, and suggests - to me - a death while in his 50s.

    ohhh oh right.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Arden.7480 said:
    Wasn't he Krytan first?

    Allow me to catch you up: Everyone in Kryta is an idiot and I hate it here.

    Private Property of P.I. Joko

    DO NOT TOUCH

    Dear Diary,

    Allow me to catch you up: Everyone in Kryta is an idiot and I hate it here.

    [...]

    I will be overjoyed when this ordeal of Mother's diplomatic tours comes to an end.

    Joko wasn't a Krytan. He visited Kryta during one of his mother's diplomatic tours.


    These books seem off to me, as the dates and ages provided would indicate that Oswald Thorn was over 80 when he died. But all lore on Ozzy indicates that he didn't live a long reign, and suggests - to me - a death while in his 50s.

    Palawa advises that Thorn lived long according to one of the books. That being said Joko would have probably still be living while constructing the bone palace, which is possible I guess.

  • Nikolai.3648Nikolai.3648 Member ✭✭
    edited October 18, 2018

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Arden.7480 said:
    Wasn't he Krytan first?

    Allow me to catch you up: Everyone in Kryta is an idiot and I hate it here.

    Private Property of P.I. Joko

    DO NOT TOUCH

    Dear Diary,

    Allow me to catch you up: Everyone in Kryta is an idiot and I hate it here.

    [...]

    I will be overjoyed when this ordeal of Mother's diplomatic tours comes to an end.

    Joko wasn't a Krytan. He visited Kryta during one of his mother's diplomatic tours.


    These books seem off to me, as the dates and ages provided would indicate that Oswald Thorn was over 80 when he died. But all lore on Ozzy indicates that he didn't live a long reign, and suggests - to me - a death while in his 50s.

    I have not checked the numbers, but I would not be surprised if someone missed some years in their research and messed up the timeline a bit. It would not be the first time they messed up with their calendars, being a few decades off point.

    It is however nice to have a strong explanation to why the primaeval rulers were so certain that Joko did not have the scarab plague in his hands at first. I also liked how they reused the name Zuri, the event chain now feels a little bit karmatic in my eyes. Bonus points for having another gender neutral name confirmed; it kind of bothers me that so many names are just gender coded like they are in our world, it does not really fit into the modern (regarding LGBTQ* (why censor the other word?) issues) society setting of Tyria in my opinion. Certainly not a big issue, but a bit weird non the less.

  • @Nikolai.3648 said:
    It is however nice to have a strong explanation to why the primaeval rulers were so certain that Joko did not have the scarab plague in his hands at first. I also liked how they reused the name Zuri, the event chain now feels a little bit karmatic in my eyes. Bonus points for having another gender neutral name confirmed.

    Well, names like Howl, Fume, and even some of the roman names ending masculine can point to either male of female charr, though a fan theory is, that these cubs get a name and are promptly handed over to the Fahrar by uncaring parents.

    As for Oswald Thorn living a long and more or less healthy life, that would explain the number of atrocious deeds he committed against his people and others. Had he just kept doing horrible things nonstop, he wouldn't have lived for long, but the madman managed to fight the centaurs and a pirate fleet. Eventually he met his end in or near Fort Cadence, where he was ambushed by what I presume all the subjects he wronged at some point. Wynn even mentions how he died like an ordinary human. Not surprising, considering he may have aged quite a bit at that point. Then again @Nikolai.3648 raises a good point about the chronology in GW2 being a bit odd.
    Example: The Shining Blade Master Exemplar Laurelai apparently served from 1157 AE to 1225 AE, which is a service record of 68 years. If she became Master Exemplar at the age of 20, she would have died with 88 years. Not impossible, but unusual. This matches the length of Kaiser Franz Joseph I, who reigned for 68 years and died as an 88 year old in Schönbrunn Palace, where he was born in 1830. She gets outdone by her successor Maria, who lead the Shining Blade for 75 years! Still not impossible, especially with magic involved, but this indicates that until Eive stepped down, this position was seen as a lifelong commitment. Master Exemplar Anise may actually be rather young, considering she has been Master Exemplar from 1320, so she's been leading for 11 years now (late 1331 AE).

  • @Tyson.5160 said:
    Palawa advises that Thorn lived long according to one of the books. That being said Joko would have probably still be living while constructing the bone palace, which is possible I guess.

    "Only the dead and the demonic can pass the desolation". We can in GW2 because the sulfuric acidity has lessened since Abaddon's death. But before then, it wouldn't be really feasible to cross without a lot of trouble or a lot of deaths. The fact some of Turai's followings could make it was nothing short of miraculous really.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Palawa advises that Thorn lived long according to one of the books. That being said Joko would have probably still be living while constructing the bone palace, which is possible I guess.

    "Only the dead and the demonic can pass the desolation". We can in GW2 because the sulfuric acidity has lessened since Abaddon's death. But before then, it wouldn't be really feasible to cross without a lot of trouble or a lot of deaths. The fact some of Turai's followings could make it was nothing short of miraculous really.

    This is me trying to put a round storyline in a square hole. It’s not working.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2018

    @Nikolai.3648 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Arden.7480 said:
    Wasn't he Krytan first?

    Allow me to catch you up: Everyone in Kryta is an idiot and I hate it here.

    Private Property of P.I. Joko

    DO NOT TOUCH

    Dear Diary,

    Allow me to catch you up: Everyone in Kryta is an idiot and I hate it here.

    [...]

    I will be overjoyed when this ordeal of Mother's diplomatic tours comes to an end.

    Joko wasn't a Krytan. He visited Kryta during one of his mother's diplomatic tours.


    These books seem off to me, as the dates and ages provided would indicate that Oswald Thorn was over 80 when he died. But all lore on Ozzy indicates that he didn't live a long reign, and suggests - to me - a death while in his 50s.

    I have not checked the numbers, but I would not be surprised if someone missed some years in their research and messed up the timeline a bit. It would not be the first time they messed up with their calendars, being a few decades off point.

    It's not necessarily a mistake. The only source for Thorn's reign, as far as I can tell, is this ghost who offhandedly mentions that it's been five hundred years since he was overthrown. If we assume he's rounding down, that gives enough flex for the timeline to work... maybe. If Joko was still fairly young (in his first few decades) when he built the palace...

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Palawa advises that Thorn lived long according to one of the books. That being said Joko would have probably still be living while constructing the bone palace, which is possible I guess.

    "Only the dead and the demonic can pass the desolation". We can in GW2 because the sulfuric acidity has lessened since Abaddon's death. But before then, it wouldn't be really feasible to cross without a lot of trouble or a lot of deaths. The fact some of Turai's followings could make it was nothing short of miraculous really.

    As of Nightfall, yes, but we also know that the sulfur wasn't that bad when Joko started out. There was still at least one living human kingdom for him to conquer out there, after all.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2018

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Palawa advises that Thorn lived long according to one of the books. That being said Joko would have probably still be living while constructing the bone palace, which is possible I guess.

    "Only the dead and the demonic can pass the desolation". We can in GW2 because the sulfuric acidity has lessened since Abaddon's death. But before then, it wouldn't be really feasible to cross without a lot of trouble or a lot of deaths. The fact some of Turai's followings could make it was nothing short of miraculous really.

    Also found this regarding the ruins of Morah, right at the mouth of torment.

    The grandeur of this ancient Elonian city can still be seen amid its crumbling visage; echoes of a noble and grand purpose. Originally established to watch over the Mouth of Torment, Morah was ever a haunted place. It was abandoned two hundred years after its founding, succumbing to the spread of the desert. Recent ruptures from the crater have further destroyed this once majestic city as the Realm of Torment seeps in through the cracks in reality.

    We were also able to pass spots in Gw1 with the Junundu Wurms.

    Palawa Joko: "Sorry to disappoint. Only the dead and the demonic can walk the sulfur flats unscathed."
    Zhed Shadowhoof: "Let me rip his limbs off. He'll still be able to tell us, afterwards."
    Palawa Joko: "You wouldn't dare, mule."
    Zhed Shadowhoof: "You're right. Fire is a better way to deal with a lying abomination like you. Someone, fetch me a torch."
    : "Don't lie to us, Palawa. The histories speak of mortals at your Bone Palace. How did they get there?"
    Palawa Joko: "I did not lie. No mortal can walk the sulfur flats. But there are great wurms who travel beneath those sands."
    Palawa Joko: "These can serve as your steeds, but you have to do one thing."
    Palawa Joko: "You have to show them you are their master. Otherwise, you are wurm food."

    Seems Joko also tamed the wurms too as seen here.

    Palawa Joko: Venture close to the wurm spoor and you will awaken Aijundu. But be sure you are prepared to challenge the queen of the wurms. Once you have awoken her, she will not rest until she is tamed... or you are kicking and screaming inside her gullet.
    When Aijundu approaches the first time.
    Palawa Joko: You have completed her first challenge, but Aijundu will not yield so easily.
    When Aijundu approaches the second time.
    Palawa Joko: Aijundu will hold back no longer. The more you disturb her, the fiercer she becomes.
    When Aijundu is defeated.
    Palawa Joko: Impressive, mortal. Truth be told, few survive the first challenge and none, save myself, survive the second... until now.

    Perhaps Joko used the wurms as well while still being alive.

  • kasoki.5180kasoki.5180 Member ✭✭✭

    There is something a bit odd for me here considering the letters about his trip to Kryta.

    Wikia states that bone palace was build in 757. and that mad king was killed in 825. Thats 68 years if I'm not mistaken.

    Does that mean that Palawa build Bone palace extremly young? I mean, its hard to find a spot where/when it makes sense that he traveled with his mother to Kryta to visit Ozzy considering that by the time Oswald was child/young Palawa should've already been powerful wizard.

  • Seems like Mad King Thorn is a bigger threat than Palawa Joko is! We still know nothing on how he learned the nature of the Elder Dragons... Did Balthazar blab to him?

  • Again, wiki's date for the Mad King's death might be an approximation. If '500 years' is something they rounded to, it could be anywhere from 776 to 875 by standard rules... or, if our ghostly Faren is one of those people who insists on always rounding down, the death could conceivably be as early as 726. As always, I would like clarification from the devs, but they did leave themselves a great deal of flex to make this timeline work. That the wiki doesn't acknowledge that is a separate issue.

    (Not that the discrepancy has much effect on the greater questions of Joko's past, regardless. However you slice it, the fact that Joko's mother and Thorn were alive at the same time almost certainly means that Joko was a product of the early years of modern Elona, post-Shattered Dynasty, which is much more recent than many people expected. Whether he was born in the first ten or the first seventy years of that period ultimately doesn't matter- the only other major Elonian event in there is the first Great Corsair War, and that doesn't factor into speculations of whether Joko was one of the Pretenders, or a disinherited member of the Primeval Dynasty, or any of the other theories that've been floated.)

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    (Not that the discrepancy has much effect on the greater questions of Joko's past, regardless. However you slice it, the fact that Joko's mother and Thorn were alive at the same time almost certainly means that Joko was a product of the early years of modern Elona, post-Shattered Dynasty, which is much more recent than many people expected. Whether he was born in the first ten or the first seventy years of that period ultimately doesn't matter- the only other major Elonian event in there is the first Great Corsair War, and that doesn't factor into speculations of whether Joko was one of the Pretenders, or a disinherited member of the Primeval Dynasty, or any of the other theories that've been floated.)

    This makes sense, considering many noble families wanted to embellish their ancestries with some bold claims. The House of Welf used to claim Odoacer and the Huns among their ancestry, though it's far more likely the frankish dynasty came from Alemannia, so their point of origin is closer to Alsace. More to the point, the saga of Welf is only documented after 1485, while the earliest documented ancestor is a count named Rothard, who held land in southern Germany in the 8th century. Far less romantic.

    Joko's family may have been minor nobles, which explains his craving for adoration. He was too noble to be around commoners, but not noble enough to mingle with the higher nobility. Wanting to be famous, he set out to carve out a realm for himself using necromancy and conquest. As for the Bone Palace, it may have started out as a small castle and was expanded as time went on. This is how many of the old castles grew from a fortified manor into the large houses of nobility. And Joko was pretty busy to rewrite his own history into something larger than life. I mean one of his ancestors may have been a (self proclaimed) kitten of a royal family.

  • dusanyu.4057dusanyu.4057 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 19, 2018

    Ignore this Post Posted something in the wrong thread (joy of recovering from brain surgery)

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It is nice get some clarification on Joko’s past even if it’s postmortem.

  • Kossage.9072Kossage.9072 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 20, 2018

    The writings discovered this Halloween have been quite intriguing even if they still leave quite a bit of Joko's past in the dark. It makes me wonder if Joko hails from cultured Vabbi. Funnily enough the reveal of Joko's mom taking him on diplomatic tours and visiting Kryta might shed some light on a curious detail found in "The Family Business" short story where Mad King Thorn tricks his son Edrick down to the undercroft where he claims he had stored "a full set of hand-forged Great Dynasty sun armor". Despite being a trick to lead Edrick to his doom, I can't help but wonder if Thorn knowing about the Elonian Great Dynasty might not have been his interest in history but maybe remembering something from Joko's visit unless it was meant to be a reference to that naval war between Kryta and Istan after Thorn ordering the death of his beloved Princess Zola.

    What's also interesting is a potential Orrian tie to the teachings Joko received: Mausollus was the first Orrian missionary to Elona and spread Grenth's teachings while living in Istan and Vabbi, and subsequent necromancers would likely have followed these teachings to the letter.

    As for Joko becoming a lich, I can't help but ponder if a djinn's magic could have been powerful enough to turn him into one. In the "Coffer of Joko" and the subsequent quests ending in "One Man's Dream" in Nightfall, what are initially believed to be scriptures of Abaddon (which Joko hid in a sturdy coffer deep within the Vehjin Mines) turn out to be poetic instructions ("Within the passages of sand and stone / Turn your head to see water take flight / It won't be long 'til your wish is in sight.") to find a powerful wish-granting djinn in the Forum Highlands. In the quest the djinn overseer, who states to only grant a wish once every hundred years, lets Hedge Wizard Mabai get his wish by turning him into royalty to woo Princess Leifah. Although the wish is granted, the now-Prince Mabai realizes that riches alone can't win the princess's heart.

    Could it be possible that Joko may have searched for the aforementioned djinn overseer and asked for everlasting life but that wish turned him into an undead lich as a result? It would be intriguing if this little djinn subplot tied into the proposed cabal idea of a group of potentially ambitious, evil djinn as per the curious Mythwright Gambit raid lore, especially if we learn about more ties to Isgarren or his lineage (is Grand Wizard Garren related to him, for example, or are they the same person etc.?). As Zommoros speculates in his journal found in the raid: "Speaking of which, I have no idea to whom [Qadim's] showing off his menagerie. Is there some djinn cabal I'm unaware of that takes pleasure in the collective suffering of living things? More likely that wretched fire djinn is simply imprisoning these creatures for his own amusement."

    Alternatively, it has never been explained how Vizier Khilbron became a lich after causing the Cataclysm of Orr via invoking the Lost Scrolls (thanks in part to manipulation from Abaddon's demonic minion Razakel who had converted him to the faith). Could Joko have stumbled onto some forbidden spell related to Abaddon, Grenth or other deity (of the Six Gods or some native Tyrian "deity") and abused that to grant himself lichdom and soul-sucking powers to turn eternal?

    Overall, the writings reveal some fascinating insight into Joko's character and leaves people craving for more. It would be fun if his lore was ever expanded upon (particularly in regards to his lichdom and meeting with Balthazar), but we'll see if there's an opportunity for such later as the story progresses. :)

    EDIT: Konig just messaged me, and apparently Joko may have somehow acquired some Scriptures of Abaddon after all if the Ascension Pilgrims are to be believed: "Palawa Joko's final curse on us was the Scriptures of Abaddon. And look what they have done to the Ossa line." Whether any of these scriptures were hidden in the Vehjin Mines or elsewhere could be an interesting plot hook for the future (too bad that area can't be accessed in GW2 as it's located between GW2 Desolation and Domain of Vabbi). So, the mystery deepens!

  • Joko has been reading Abaddon's hidden Lore? No wonder he knows all about the Elder Dragons! The Commander would benefit to get his hands on the Scriptures of Abaddon so that he can learn what Joko knew about the Elder Dragons...

    Abaddon's corruption has left it's mark on Elona... We must head to the Sulfurous Wastes since that is the only place Joko could have hidden Abaddon's Scriptures! The Sulfurous Wastes judging from the map seems to be mostly Black Rock and Sulfur Flats which is slightly different from the Desolation's Grey Desert and Sulfur Flats.

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