[Down State] Handicapping the game in favor of the serg that has more numbers is a bad design game.

Down state is handicapping for those who already have the advantage in numbers. It needs to be removed from WvW and PvP.I have never played a game in which handicapping played a major advantage for those who ALREADY have the advantage. Thus, giving them MORE advantage!

handicapping games is fantastic in PvE so you can enjoy the game; and to some extent it should also be used in competitive matches to level the playing field, but NEVER should handicapping be used in favor of those who already have the advantage.

EDIT:Reading the comments, I realize that many of you have no idea what *handicapping" a game means. Handicapping a game is the act of making a game less cumbersome and easier and enjoyable to play. For example: if you die, the game gives you another chance to continue the game play by introducing down states, extra lives, health regeneration while out of combat, etc.... so that you can continue enjoying the game.

Guild wars 2 is such a game; the problem with GW2 is that developers decided to include Down State handicapping in WvW and PvP without restriction or moderation so that groups with more numbers not only have the advantage in numbers but also the advantage in Down State handicapping.

I hope that you now understand what handicapping a game means and how PvE handicapping affects WvW.If you still don't get it, remember this:

• Down State Handicapping is a gift from the developers to make your life easier, so that you can enjoy playing the game even after you are "dead."

WvW should not have this "gift" from the developers; only PvE should have Down State Handicapping.

@Hitman.5829 said:Down state is handicapping for those who already have the advantage in numbers. It needs to be removed from WvW and PvP.I have never played a game in which handicapping played a major advantage for those who ALREADY have the advantage. Thus, giving them MORE advantage!

handicapping games is fantastic in PvE so you can enjoy the game; and to some extent it should also be used in competitive matches to level the playing field, but NEVER should handicapping be used in favor of those who already have the advantage.

Agree

It's a vital part of PvP though. Rotting somebody off node so it will take him longer to get back in the fight etc.

@Blocki.4931 said:It's a vital part of PvP though. Rotting somebody off node so it will take him longer to get back in the fight etc.

not enough of a reason to keep it around.

@Blocki.4931 said:It's a vital part of PvP though. Rotting somebody off node so it will take him longer to get back in the fight etc.

It is not much of an issue in PvP, as a match by default should be even numbered. So the only advantage being class/build and player skill.

WvW however DS gives a huge advantage to whoever has the larger numbers. This is for sure more of an issue for WvW, and less of one (if at all) for PvP.

One problem would be that they'd need to revamp a few skills, traits, and Scrapper due to their purpose of being resurrection orientated.

The OPs premise is wrong which makes the conclusion wrong.

Its fine if someone wants the crutch of no downstate, but it is not handicapping anyone.

I use Downstate as a second chance. Zergs dont stomp they keep going you can easily get players back in the fight by using your toolkits that are made for Downstate!

No thanks. Pin snipe doesn't need to be easier. I suspect OP is wanting this for his roaming 1vX's assuming the signature has any merit. Even still, no. You can reverse the unsupported statement like so: "NoDownstate is handicapping players that use burst builds since they can one shot, reset, then one shot again." I'd be for "no-rally" giving more value to down-state related skills/items.

D:

The issue is they would need to actually revamp whole classes, seriously everyone that plays thief, ranger and mesmer would take over. It was proven in the no down state weekend.

Another stupid No Downstate thread. Yay. Just stop. Anet will not remove it from the game. Just be glad you will get it for a week once in a while.

@Nightshade.2570 said:The issue is they would need to actually revamp whole classes, seriously everyone that plays thief, ranger and mesmer would take over. It was proven in the no down state weekend.

Would take over what?

@Nightshade.2570 said:The issue is they would need to actually revamp whole classes, seriously everyone that plays thief, ranger and mesmer would take over. It was proven in the no down state weekend.

All three of those are already common in roaming, the no DS weekend didn't change that. People running back to a zerg on their own, will die to the roamer DS or not. The only thing it really changes being smaller scale teams have a CHANCE if they have better tactics, it rewards skilled play.

It was nice to see some skilled guilds out in wvw again, which I had not seen much of for a while. Some of them I know and had even been in, having 2/3 or even half the numbers of the other zerg I remember bashing our faces into them over and over again getting downs on every push, but never being able to finish them, as it was to hot to stand there and almost insta power ressing. Watching some of them when no DS was active, it was so fun watching them push out into a much larger zerg and cutting a line straight through them of fully dead players, pulling off and recover and push back through the other side until the zerg was down to size and they could full wipe them.

Removing DS still gives the advantage to the larger team, that does not go away, but it does allow skillful play to pay off, getting in TS and being apart of the team pays off, learning your class and skills pays off.

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@Nightshade.2570 said:The issue is they would need to actually revamp whole classes, seriously everyone that plays thief, ranger and mesmer would take over. It was proven in the no down state weekend.

100% agree. the real issue is that it's just so god darned easy. you literally just press F to revive. wow. that was super difficult. our team mate died but I got him back up by pressing F for a few seconds. talk about skill.

Keep downstate. It helps when the tail nippers who abuse low skill magnet builds (one-shot/burst kills from stealth) have to suffer consequences for their actions AND dont always get the kill when attacking a 50 person blob. Good GvGers do not have a hard time finishing downed players. Its the 1v1ers who keep asking for this, and they cant even ask for what they really want, instead opting to incorrectly couch their request in terms of "skillful play.".

@bigo.9037 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@Nightshade.2570 said:The issue is they would need to actually revamp whole classes, seriously everyone that plays thief, ranger and mesmer would take over. It was proven in the no down state weekend.

Fascinating. Reduce healing rate or buff poison (-50% revive rate or whatever) so the counter to the easy tactic is even more effective.

D:

@"SoV.5139" said:Keep downstate. It helps when the tail nippers who abuse low skill magnet builds (one-shot/burst kills from stealth) have to suffer consequences for their actions AND dont always get the kill when attacking a 50 person blob. Good GvGers do not have a hard time finishing downed players. Its the 1v1ers who keep asking for this, and they cant even ask for what they really want, instead opting to incorrectly couch their request in terms of "skillful play.".

yes. lets make blobbing the only way to play wvw. let's ban all roamers. the fact that there are other roles to play in wvw than ele, necro, rev guardian and warrior is a disgrace. let's streamline wvw so you get kicked out of wvw if you don't play those specs with wvw builds. picking players off a zerg tail should give instaban.

zerglings want everything to adhere to their way of wvw. roamers are nothing but a pain. it's not that zerglings are sluggish for falling behind their commander ( because they are semi afk while playing the game anyway ). I , as a zergling deserve instant revival for my mistake. I deserve more pve rewards and gold for simply being a supply dolyak for my commander.

seriously though. anet has given so much in favor of zergs even though half of them don't know what they're doing. they just blindly follow tag. throw some aoe here and there and then they think they did a great job if they win the fight.

@bigo.9037 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@Nightshade.2570 said:The issue is they would need to actually revamp whole classes, seriously everyone that plays thief, ranger and mesmer would take over. It was proven in the no down state weekend.

Actually, its even easier now because well....(1) FB MI can insta-revive, (2) Ranger PET AI can revive a fallen ranger more efficiently than an enemy can DPS, and (3) mesmer's illusion of life. I'm sure there are other gimmicks around, but those came to mind from reading your comment.

@GDchiaScrub.3241 said:Fascinating. Reduce healing rate or buff poison (-50% revive rate or whatever) so the counter to the easy tactic is even more effective.But... thats exactly what what poison does today, it makes it take 50% longer to heal :/

Either way I am curious if this is really just a NA issue? In another forum someone mention pirate shipping and blood scourges for meta sustain ball zergs without backlines... In the EU the former is nearly gone and replaced with bubbles pushes while the later is an automatic squad kick because if someone is seen downed, 9 out of 10 times they get nuked so hard by the backline that everything around them dies so few bother with ressing - thats how zergs loose fights, not win them. I've only seen the occassional resses really matter when its an even fight, which should be... fine, I guess?

The only thing no downed state would accomplish is zergs wiping way, way faster, people leaving because they die without any hope of rally or res and fights dying out across all borders much faster than they do today.

@bigo.9037 said:

@"SoV.5139" said:Keep downstate. It helps when the tail nippers who abuse low skill magnet builds (one-shot/burst kills from stealth) have to suffer consequences for their actions AND dont always get the kill when attacking a 50 person blob. Good GvGers do not have a hard time finishing downed players. Its the 1v1ers who keep asking for this, and they cant even ask for what they really want, instead opting to incorrectly couch their request in terms of "skillful play.".

What people are doing here is attempting to win on the forums, that which they cannot win in game. The ability to snipe sans consequences.

When we lift these "my way is skillful play but your way is lazy and lacks skill" arguments out of the debate waters, they leak like a sieve.

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@GDchiaScrub.3241 said:Fascinating. Reduce healing rate or buff poison (-50% revive rate or whatever) so the counter to the easy tactic is even more effective.But... thats exactly what what poison does today, it makes it take 50% longer to heal :/

I should clarify the revive rate reduction is an extra effect with the healing rate reduction.

D:

I'll only throw in two cents in here that "downstate" is not "handicapping PvP modes in favour of sergs" but core gameplay mechanic, with alot of design and balancing being made around that.

I'm sorry OP but it is not going away in any foreseeable future (that is permanently as we may ocasionally get no DS week events still) and just argument that your small group cannot just chip much bigger group one by one with cheesy just burst builds is not an argument really(to be honest half of points in this thread does not make for a valid argument considering how this thread went.....)

@bigo.9037 said:

@"SoV.5139" said:Keep downstate. It helps when the tail nippers who abuse low skill magnet builds (one-shot/burst kills from stealth) have to suffer consequences for their actions AND dont always get the kill when attacking a 50 person blob. Good GvGers do not have a hard time finishing downed players. Its the 1v1ers who keep asking for this, and they cant even ask for what they really want, instead opting to incorrectly couch their request in terms of "skillful play.".

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@GDchiaScrub.3241 said:Fascinating. Reduce healing rate or buff poison (-50% revive rate or whatever) so the counter to the easy tactic is even more effective.But... thats exactly what what poison does today, it makes it take 50% longer to heal :/

33%

@"Lord Trejgon.2809" said:I'll only throw in two cents in here that "downstate" is not "handicapping PvP modes in favour of sergs" but core gameplay mechanic, with alot of design and balancing being made around that.

I'm sorry OP but it is not going away in any foreseeable future (that is permanently as we may ocasionally get no DS week events still) and just argument that your small group cannot just chip much bigger group one by one with cheesy just burst builds is not an argument really(to be honest half of points in this thread does not make for a valid argument considering how this thread went.....)

Yet another one of the arguments that failed to show up on the no DS week.

Please, go on and list out the design and balancing of DS that does not favor the larger group.

Also, the whole "cheesy just burst builds". Uhhh...no. A small skill group will not be running that, as even a clueless pug zerg would wipe them on the first push. Skill groups are going to be well comped, organized and on target, the focus and skill might make it seem like they are all one shot builds, but they are not. But hey, if those cheesy burst builds work at taking out a zerg, why don't you give it a try and report back.