WvW Chaos Condi Mirage : Feedback Request and IH vs DC Question

Hello Mesmer Forum,

PrefaceWith my job and hobbies it has been hard to maintain a presence in GW2. I love this game, and this profession, and have played on and off since the beta. WvW is my favorite game-mode, but because of my consistent tardiness it is hard to make gold and grind ascended gear. This translates to fewer opportunities to try different armor/trinket/weapon sets for build tweaking. It's also difficult to get some runes because I don't have amazing crafting skills on any of my characters, and I don't raid/haven't explored dungeons. I'm kind of a noob with minimal resources and would love to use this build in other game-modes.

The BuildIs all about survival, mobility, and sustained condition damage. If you think condi is cancer and bad for the game then save yourself the time and read no further. Staff is the base weapon because I wanted to utilize Chaos Armor's boons with Chaotic Persistence and Dune Cloak to maximize condition duration alongside Trailblazers and Signet of Midnight. Jaunt + Phase Retreat + The Prestige reliably net CA in Chaos Storms, and with the rest of the Mirage line you get even more protection and regeneration for CP. In 2 v 1 situations and group fights this build can last long enough to drop CS onto downed players for interrupts, more boons, and more CA. With the WXP upgrade Guard Killer 5 you can grab even more endurance when attacking camps. You can even follow enemies into their own camps because the NPC's trigger your CA and all your dodges create clones and bleeds.

Changes and Improvements

1. Originally I was running Illusionary Defense for more damage reduction, but prefer the extra CS on False Oasis. It works out well that you get the storm into a Mirage Mirror, which lets you get confounding bolts via Lingering Thoughts with greater ease. Dive bombing catapult nests is a blast with all the storms you get. Would ID stack with protection?
2. One of the reasons I made this post was to get opinions on Dune Cloak. All I hear is that it's the worst grand-master and that may be so. In this build it makes staff ambush also come with a 20% duration buff if you can maintain bleeds. This duration buff also helps CS and CA conditions, including chill and poison. Infinite Horizon, on the other hand, grants even more ambush attacks to clones, which leads to bigger condi stacks. Which do you think provides the most damage?
3. Before going with Dueling I tinkered with Illusions, and I kind of miss the stronger shatters and Torch buff. Do you think Dueling fits better, especially with Fury and bleeds for DC? Could I be traiting better in Dueling?
4. Would full trailblazer trinkets alleviate some of the stress for condi duration? Or is dire/rabid the better option?

TLDRWhat advice would you give this WvW roaming condi chaos build? Would it transition well to other game-modes, like fractals or PvP? How much would my DPS improve if I used Infinite Horizon over Dune Cloak?

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Thanks for reading if you got this far <3

IH on staff has the benefit of might stacking (made easier if you also use Duelling with deceptive evasion) through clones and essentially perma fury. This can build huge short duration spikes in power/condi damage which can be used to improve burst shatter etc. Staff ambush with IH in general is enhanced well by deceptive evasion.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAW3fnELDlphVoBGMDMMjFcjy8CChRyf9n/6vMAatfB-jFyFABNp8jOdP8exCA4AK82+DI8EA6TJY+q/QKAF1pB-w

Tweaked your original build a bit without touching the gear. Here's the thought process behind the changes:

You're already sitting at 3k armor and have traited staff which makes chaos armor proc protection. The fact that you use the double Chaos Storm and are likely going to be leaping in and out of it (see Phase Retreat, Jaunt), thus proccing more Chaos Armor and by proxy more protection. You really don't need the extra Protection from Mirage Mantle. Imaginary axes on the other hand increase your Axe ambush damage by 50% by adding an extra axe for a total of 3. That is a considerable bump in damage that cannot be ignored. There are cases where I might consider picking it over Imaginary Axes, but definitely not in this build and stat spread.

Infinite Horizon > Dune Cloak ANYDAY, EVERYDAY! Unless you can't afford to slot the expertise. Utilizing IH to it's fullest takes a bit of practice and consists of landing as many clone ambushes as possible before shattering said clones. So while you might be used to cover casting and shattering behind Mirage Cloak, that is far from optimal when IH is being used.

Finally, a few suggestions from me. As a general rule of thumb you should aim for the 50% condi duration mark. Anything more than that is likely going to get cleansed long before the conditions run its course, making it a wasted stat that can be redistributed elsewhere. If I were you I'd drop the Malice sigils and get a Corruption and either Doom (extra cover condi and poison at that) or if you know how to interrupt, straight up Draining sigil (bombing a CS AoE interrupt can literary save your life with a clutch heal). Also, having high protection uptime really defeats the purpose of having THAT MUCH armor. You should consider swapping some of those pieces with Viper to retain the expertise or even Grieving. Both are quite a bit cheaper than Trailblazer and will give you a nice power damage bump to add to all that condi pressure, at the cost of a little less toughness. That stat redistribution will help you GREATLY, when fighting builds with high condi hate.

P.S. I'm sure that as soon as I press "Post Comment" I'll think of a million other things, but for starters this is good enough. Feel free to PM me if you need further information.

@Curunen.8729 said:IH on staff has the benefit of might stacking (made easier if you also use Duelling with deceptive evasion) through clones and essentially perma fury. This can build huge short duration spikes in power/condi damage which can be used to improve burst shatter etc. Staff ambush with IH in general is enhanced well by deceptive evasion.

After giving IH a whirl with staff I totally get what you're talking about; I was only getting 12 might stacks before and now I can actually reach 25. Auto Attack > Phase Retreat > Dodge > Double Ambush has been my new opener for getting clones and boons out. Any advise on how to plan out a burst? I've never played a straight power character and burst condi has never been my strong suit. I always end up spending too many resources, not killing, and then not be able to retreat.

@"Arlette.9684" said:http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAW3fnELDlphVoBGMDMMjFcjy8CChRyf9n/6vMAatfB-jFyFABNp8jOdP8exCA4AK82+DI8EA6TJY+q/QKAF1pB-w

You really don't need the extra Protection from Mirage Mantle. Imaginary axes on the other hand increase your Axe ambush damage by 50% by adding an extra axe for a total of 3. That is a considerable bump in damage that cannot be ignored. There are cases where I might consider picking it over Imaginary Axes, but definitely not in this build and stat spread.

Finally, a few suggestions from me. As a general rule of thumb you should aim for the 50% condi duration mark. Anything more than that is likely going to get cleansed long before the conditions run its course, making it a wasted stat that can be redistributed elsewhere. If I were you I'd drop the Malice sigils and get a Corruption and either Doom (extra cover condi and poison at that) or if you know how to interrupt, straight up Draining sigil (bombing a CS AoE interrupt can literary save your life with a clutch heal). Also, having high protection uptime really defeats the purpose of having THAT MUCH armor. You should consider swapping some of those pieces with Viper to retain the expertise or even Grieving. Both are quite a bit cheaper than Trailblazer and will give you a nice power damage bump to add to all that condi pressure, at the cost of a little less toughness. That stat redistribution will help you GREATLY, when fighting builds with high condi hate.

P.S. I'm sure that as soon as I press "Post Comment" I'll think of a million other things, but for starters this is good enough. Feel free to PM me if you need further information.

This was all super informative, thank you for taking the time to respond! The DPS buff from Imaginary Axes is nice, I ran it before when I first picked up axe. This might sound like a dumb question, but how much armor do I actually "need"? I honestly don't know what a good benchmark to aim for would be, so I went a little overboard with the protection since there was so much synergy with Chaos Storm. An older build even used Illusionary Defense. Overall I want to be able to go toe to toe with Holo Smiths, Reapers, and Deadeyes who tend to have huge damage spikes, despite my armor. That's been my biggest deterrent from switching to Viper after condi mirage got nerfed.

Conversely, how many/which armor pieces should I swap to Viper or a more damaging stat set? Should I go half and half? Dropping the Malice Sigils put me down to 49% condi duration, so armor changes should probably include Expertise ya? Having the condi stacks from Corruption Sigil is nice, though I had to switch it to my Staff since I often switch axe to Focus when hasting doly's, retreat to water on the alpine borderlands, and use the sentries pack for more swiftness. Didn't realize all of the stacks would get removed during weapon swap, but it makes sense... Also, I would have PM'd you but don't know how to do that in this forum yet haha.

@Crow.2851 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:IH on staff has the benefit of might stacking (made easier if you also use Duelling with deceptive evasion) through clones and essentially perma fury. This can build huge short duration spikes in power/condi damage which can be used to improve burst shatter etc. Staff ambush with IH in general is enhanced well by deceptive evasion.

There's not really a set pattern - that's the beauty of hybrid mirage (hybrid to make use of might stacks here) because it's flexible and you can adapt your combos/positioning etc depending on the situation.For IH staff ambush, just keep an eye on where clones are and if possible try to position in front of them when dodging to get hit by their ambush. With a single dodge and move forward you get 7 stacks of might (3 from clone ambush, 3 from your ambush, 1 from dodge food).

Illusionary Ambush is too random positioning, so really it's going to be all on dodging (with deceptive evasion) and occasional walking through a mirage mirror from your heal.

So keeping eyes on clones, and things like iWarlock turning into clones to ensure stacking up a nice bit of might before burst. You can burst in staff with positioning (movement or phase retreat), or swap to axe after building might to go in for a wombo combo axe 2+dodge (2 clone spawn) axe 3 F1 or F2. Don't forget F1 also gives might from bountiful disillusionment. Also adding things like Jaunt into a burst for extra damage/confusion stacks, or can be used to position directly into shatter if clones are also positioned suitably - though I reckon with your build it might be best to save Jaunt for defensive kiting and condi cleanse.

Anyway I'll let Arlette cover most of the points regarding gear etc, as he's got a lot of experience running IH in wvw.

I'll just add a couple of things worth thinking about. First maybe add a bit more condi cleanse somewhere - such as mantra cleanse. Otherwise in a mirror match you could melt, certainly if you get condi burst you haven't got many ways to recover. Second certainly use dodge food with might on dodge (orrian truffle and meat stew, not the holographic super cake - I tried that and the healing isn't good enough plus only 30% endurance regen vs 40% of truffle and meat stew) - everything else is worse for mirage, more dodge access = better.

So just a side quiestion here.

Why would anyone ever invest in Duration in WvW?If they dont cleanse they are dead in 3 seconds anyways , and if they cleanse duration wasnt worth it.

@FaboBabo.3581 said:So just a side quiestion here.

Why would anyone ever invest in Duration in WvW?If they dont cleanse they are dead in 3 seconds anyways , and if they cleanse duration wasnt worth it.

The first meta build I aimed for when I started taking the game seriously was PU Condi Roamer. It used Trailblazers with Runes of Perplexity for long lasting confusion stacks, and I already used scepter when roaming PvE so I went for it with the desert armor track. I wanted the toughness so I could out last and potentially daze someone trying to condi cleanse, which has led to heated stalemates with Fire Brands. Perhaps a mix of higher crit chance and straight damage would be best.

@FaboBabo.3581 said:So just a side quiestion here.

Why would anyone ever invest in Duration in WvW?If they dont cleanse they are dead in 3 seconds anyways , and if they cleanse duration wasnt worth it.

Simple, the current meta builds (post scourge nerf) run with low to moderate condi cleanse, so you benefit greatly from Expertise as ALL your conditions (even stuff you randomly get from Chaos Armor) get extended duration and force your opponent to use whatever little cleanse options they have available defensively. That allows you to dictate the terms of the fight and gives you a serious edge. Also, with the amount of passive physical damage reductions/immunities power damage is not nearly as effective as prolonged exposure to conditions.

@Crow.2851 @Curunen.8729 covered it more than nicely, I'd be hard pressed to give you a better explanation.As far as suggested armor, I can't give you an exact number as it largely depends on your skill level and comfort zone. I'd say anything between 2450 and 2850, depending on how confident you are in your ability to react quickly under pressure. You don't want to get one shotted by Malicious BS, but you also don't want to go so far overboard where your power damage is a wet noodle which is what full trailblazer translates to. @Curunen.8729 covered the Might stacking rotation nicely, and knowing how to execute it correctly, allows you to drop to extremely low condi and power stats and still be able to compensate cuz hell +750 on both puts you at stupid numbers anyway.

Running IH over EM, forces you to rethink how you use your Jaunt ammo. You tend to use it less for offense and more for repositioning and Protection stacking tool. It's not a bad thing, but it does require a considerable playstyle adjustment.

Edit: Easiest way to PM is to click on the profile picture of the user and then on their profile to the left of the Avatar there's a "Send Message" option. You'll have to excuse the secrecy but I don't like spilling the beans for all the haters out there trying to get a free kill on me. :smiley:

@"Arlette.9684" said:Simple, the current meta builds (post scourge nerf) run with low to moderate condi cleanse, so you benefit greatly from Expertise as ALL your conditions (even stuff you randomly get from Chaos Armor) get extended duration and force your opponent to use whatever little cleanse options they have available defensively. That allows you to dictate the terms of the fight and gives you a serious edge. Also, with the amount of passive physical damage reductions/immunities power damage is not nearly as effective as prolonged exposure to conditions.

Thank you for mentioning this, the extended condi duration pulls a lot of weight at the start of fights to stack condis that people "need" to purge. It makes longer fights lean in my favor, and because this build is not easy to kill with all it's evasion and armor, most fights are prolonged.

@Curunen.8729 covered it more than nicely, I'd be hard pressed to give you a better explanation.As far as suggested armor, I can't give you an exact number as it largely depends on your skill level and comfort zone. I'd say anything between 2450 and 2850, depending on how confident you are in your ability to react quickly under pressure. You don't want to get one shotted by Malicious BS, but you also don't want to go so far overboard where your power damage is a wet noodle which is what full trailblazer translates to. @Curunen.8729 covered the Might stacking rotation nicely, and knowing how to execute it correctly, allows you to drop to extremely low condi and power stats and still be able to compensate cuz hell +750 on both puts you at stupid numbers anyway. Running IH over EM, forces you to rethink how you use your Jaunt ammo. You tend to use it less for offense and more for repositioning and Protection stacking tool. It's not a bad thing, but it does require a considerable playstyle adjustment.

With half trailblazer and half viper I'm still around 2,700 which still seems high... I guess I could try working toward new trinkets for more viper. How much base power should I aim for? At 25 might stacks I'm almost at 2k, is that a good benchmark to aim for? Playing a mixed build has been a blast so far! My shatters actually do damage and burning bursts are stupid strong.

@Curunen.8729 said:IH on staff has the benefit of might stacking (made easier if you also use Duelling with deceptive evasion) through clones and essentially perma fury.So keeping eyes on clones, and things like iWarlock turning into clones to ensure stacking up a nice bit of might before burst. You can burst in staff with positioning (movement or phase retreat), or swap to axe after building might to go in for a wombo combo axe 2+dodge (2 clone spawn) axe 3 F1 or F2. Don't forget F1 also gives might from bountiful disillusionment. Also adding things like Jaunt into a burst for extra damage/confusion stacks, or can be used to position directly into shatter if clones are also positioned suitably - though I reckon with your build it might be best to save Jaunt for defensive kiting and condi cleanse.I'll just add a couple of things worth thinking about. First maybe add a bit more condi cleanse somewhere - such as mantra cleanse. Otherwise in a mirror match you could melt, certainly if you get condi burst you haven't got many ways to recover. Second certainly use dodge food with might on dodge (orrian truffle and meat stew, not the holographic super cake - I tried that and the healing isn't good enough plus only 30% endurance regen vs 40% of truffle and meat stew) - everything else is worse for mirage, more dodge access = better.

This was really helpful, thanks you for the explanation. With illusionary axes is it worth trying to get 3 clone ambushes, or should I focus more on getting shatter bursts? It's a little ridiculous having these invincible clones, I've never been able to keep them alive for so long. That orrian soup is nuuuts! I didn't know there was food that triggered on dodge. Alongside rank 5 Guard Killer I barely take any damage from camps because I'm dodging so much.

I only struggle vs condi's if I'm in a 2v1, but you're right that kiting/cleansing with jaunt is more beneficial than using it for pressure. In mirror matches so far I've been able to evade shatters with staff and then stack on torment when they try to escape.