early warning — Guild Wars 2 Forums

early warning

During fights it is imperative to know when your opponent will attack and what attack they will use, most skills have lead-ups that tell you this. Unfortunately stealth takes this fairness away which is awesome for those in stealth, that's less play skill they need to win. But for their opponents it's very unfair, add to that the ability to attack from range while under stealth it becomes merely a matter of waiting to wp after death. What would be fair is that in order to attack or stake a downed you must come out of stealth first, and if hit you drop from stealth. I believe stealth was intended as an evasive action or to set up positioning, not as a "ha-ha, you suck cause you cant see me" action.

Comments

  • LaGranse.8652LaGranse.8652 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 21, 2018

    I'm fine with stealth attacks not having any tells. A stealth attack would have come unexpectedly for a defender with no big real tell. The problem in my opinion is how reentering stealth is implemented. After having been struck the defender will be on high alert and keep their eyes on the attacker.

    The ability to reenter stealth must be there as one of the core thief mechanics is stealth attacks, the 3 seconds of revealed is there to prevent them from reentering stealth right away however it would be cool if line of sight and/or something like blindness had a part to play in making the opponent lose track of the attacker.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭

    Which stealth attack from range are you talking about?

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL]

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭

    Dodges should apply revealed if already stealthed.

    This way the thief needs to choose between detarget or mobility, gives stealth a counter as they can't evade/move fast from where they stealth. Deadeyes could still choose to use their elite to restealth should they need the dodge.

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @rng.1024 said:
    Dodges should apply revealed if already stealthed.

    This way the thief needs to choose between detarget or mobility, gives stealth a counter as they can't evade/move fast from where they stealth. Deadeyes could still choose to use their elite to restealth should they need the dodge.

    SM might need to be changed to insta cast or stunbreak i think for this

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think that if someone stealths in combat they should not immediately go invisible and drop target but instead fade from view over a second or two and stay targetable during that time so that stealth could not be used as a spammable detarget.

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Optimator.3589 said:
    Shouldn't be able to enter stealth while in combat. It's that simple. Whatever its other failings, WoW handled stealth far better than this game.

    How many classes run stealth in wow?

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 22, 2018

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    Dodges should apply revealed if already stealthed.

    This way the thief needs to choose between detarget or mobility, gives stealth a counter as they can't evade/move fast from where they stealth. Deadeyes could still choose to use their elite to restealth should they need the dodge.

    dodging while you have stabilitiy should cause knockdown, you should plan ahead if you want to avoid a CC with stability or dodge. you may just use a stunbreak if you need the dodge.

    I'm all in for this actually if every skill in the game that currently gives stab give atleast 2 stacks - counterplay for the professions without innate boonremoval. Remember the thief can dodge just as much (daredevil more) when out of stealth, all he needs to do is plan his window of stealth.

    @DemonSeed.3528 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    Dodges should apply revealed if already stealthed.

    This way the thief needs to choose between detarget or mobility, gives stealth a counter as they can't evade/move fast from where they stealth. Deadeyes could still choose to use their elite to restealth should they need the dodge.

    SM might need to be changed to insta cast or stunbreak i think for this

    Why though? It would work just the same as now, they could either wait out the 3 sec revealed or cast it immideately after they land.

  • geist.4126geist.4126 Member ✭✭✭

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @Optimator.3589 said:
    Shouldn't be able to enter stealth while in combat. It's that simple. Whatever its other failings, WoW handled stealth far better than this game.

    They also gave Rogues the ability to stand toe-toe with other classes. Thief can't do that. So if you want that type of stealth, think about what buffs Thief will receive as compensation, I doubt you'd enjoy those buffs.

    Maybe you just learn to dodge and don't go full glasscannon?

  • geist.4126geist.4126 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @Optimator.3589 said:
    Shouldn't be able to enter stealth while in combat. It's that simple. Whatever its other failings, WoW handled stealth far better than this game.

    How many classes run stealth in wow?

    Same number as in GW2. Mesmer/Thief vs. Rogue/Feral. An engineer or ranger isn't exactly running stealth just because they have one skill that stealthes them for a short time.

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 22, 2018

    @geist.4126 said:

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @Optimator.3589 said:
    Shouldn't be able to enter stealth while in combat. It's that simple. Whatever its other failings, WoW handled stealth far better than this game.

    How many classes run stealth in wow?

    Same number as in GW2. Mesmer/Thief vs. Rogue/Feral. An engineer or ranger isn't exactly running stealth just because they have one skill that stealthes them for a short time.

    My point was, everything and anything can be stealthed in gw2, can wow zergs be stealthed too? It's completely different game.

    Edit. Thievs have to go full offensive gear to actually hurt people, even then that's not enough so most thievs are either de or they take assassins signet to Yolo burst.

  • geist.4126geist.4126 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    My point was, everything and anything can be stealthed in gw2, can wow zergs be stealthed too? It's completely different game.

    Maybe you check your facts.

    Mage:
    https://www.wowhead.com/spell=198158/mass-invisibility
    Rogue:
    https://www.wowhead.com/spell=114018/shroud-of-concealment

    Edit. Thievs have to go full offensive gear to actually hurt people, even then that's not enough so most thievs are either de or they take assassins signet to Yolo burst.

    Yeah right, that's completely exclusive to thieves. Are you kidding me?

  • geist.4126geist.4126 Member ✭✭✭

    @Turk.5460 said:
    Do you even play GW2? Rangers have more stealth than mesmers.

    I really had to lol about that.

  • LetoII.3782LetoII.3782 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @geist.4126 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:
    Do you even play GW2? Rangers have more stealth than mesmers.

    I really had to lol about that.

    Mostly true
    It's just a chore to do on soulbeast

    And most ramger-inclined folks are very meh

    [HUNT] the predatory instinct

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @geist.4126 said:

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    My point was, everything and anything can be stealthed in gw2, can wow zergs be stealthed too? It's completely different game.

    Maybe you check your facts.

    Mage:
    https://www.wowhead.com/spell=198158/mass-invisibility
    Rogue:
    https://www.wowhead.com/spell=114018/shroud-of-concealment

    > Edit. Thievs have to go full offensive gear to actually hurt people, even then that's not enough so most thievs are either de or they take assassins signet to Yolo burst.

    Yeah right, that's completely exclusive to thieves. Are you kidding me?

    That's just 2 spells.

  • geist.4126geist.4126 Member ✭✭✭

    Don't move the goalpost again. You said "How many classes have access to stealth in WoW". I named them.
    After that you said "can wow zergs be stealthed too? It's completely different game." I showed you they can.
    Now you go for the number of "spells". That's two spells you have in WoW to stealth your group. Mages have invisibility, Rogues have stealth on "no cd" and Vanish and Feral Druids have the same stealth Rogues have + there is the Nightelf Racial that makes you invisible.

    Two classes in WoW are balanced around stealth (Feral Druid and Rogue) and both are way more balanced than thief or any stealth in GW2 ever was. They are based on either control or high burst and don't have "all in one" with zero risk like Deadeye has or D/P thieves had for 90% of GW2s life cycle.

    And now tell me which GW2 class hasn't to go full offensive gear to hurt people, because you made it sound that thief is the only one.

  • Widmo.3186Widmo.3186 Member ✭✭✭

    The reason why GW2 stealth is not WoW stealth is that most skills are free-target casts. Especially 1 that has no cd (except stealth abilities) and on most characters is free-targetable. In WoW you either need to have targeted sth or use AoE that has cast time/big cooldown/low range (or youre just DH). So please, dont compare those 2 mechanics because if you wanted to have WoW stealth in GW2 you would need to rebuild whole game.

    I dont think that early warning would be a good idea, thieves would start crying that they cannot hit backstabs anymore. About reentering stealth during fight, Core needs to hit you, DD needs to use 2 skills (both clearly visible and interruptable), DE...he just does whatever he wants. Now, draw conclusions.
    I didn't mention druid, mesmer and engi stealth because I don't think that many ppl have problems with them as with ^.

    PS: By the way, you know that Rogue in WoW has Vanish and Distraction that allows him to reset fight twice, right? So its also not so "perfect"

    Dont mind me, I just randomly spam 35 skill-buttons

  • geist.4126geist.4126 Member ✭✭✭

    Distraction doesn't allow you to reset a fight. Vanish is basically what every instant stealth skill in Gw2 is - and it has a way longer cd than any of those.
    Additionally there are counters to stealth in WoW. Demon Hunters Spectral Sight and Hunters Flare. And if you use vanish you don't end up 1200m away from your target suddenly and are safe. You only have a 1 sec immunity before you can get put out of stealth with an AoE or any hit.
    As a feral you have neither of those and still are a top class.

    The key here is: There is a hardcounter to stealth. GW2 doesn't have one, because stealth is almost everytime available even if you manage to reveal and thieves/meser have ridiculous mobility which makes the pure revealed a bad counter. Even worse with DE elite now.

  • After a while you start noticing a pattern with stealthing enemies (such as thiefs and mesmers) and eventually learn to dodge/counter them at the right moment. Of course, all players are different, but most seem to use similar tactics you can get used to. In open field it's easy to spot a stealthing enemy, and then gain some distance or wait for the attack with aegis/reflects/dodge ready. If they stealth up mid-fight, again gain some distance and get yourself ready for the attack, or alternatively try to hurt them if you know their general location.

    If they come from behind or hide behind buildings and such waiting for you, I've learned that there's always a tell when someone in stealth is going to attack you. It can be a fraction of a second, a tiny flicker, before the damage comes in. As a mesmer player, I've learned to hit F4 super fast everytime I see even a tiny movement near my character. I can usually evade most of the mesmer/thief burst damage this way and it gives me a chance to counter it. But keep in mind, this takes a lot of practice and your attention has to be in the right place, or you're dead. You should always be on guard when entering places like that with potentially stealthed roamers hiding somewhere.

    Other classes have tells as well, such as Scrapper with his tiny gyro floating behind him when he's in stealth. Deadeyes can be impossible to notice since they can pretty much permastealth, but as soon as a target icon pops up above your head, use every movement skill you have to get as far away as possible.

    TL;DR, stealth is a huge pain in the butt, but most of the frustration can be eased with practice, practice, practice.

  • There is a tell with the silent scope dodge stealth but it is hard to detect as it is a brief shadow flash animation where the DE does the dodge while in stealth. (This might only show with eye candy turned up) I see it on occasion and can usually anticipate the attack as a result. As said many times before, permastealth can be fixed by removing stealth stacking.

    If you really want to fix DE, you can swap silent scope with fire for effect making it a grandmaster trait which it probably should be. This would be a very heavy nerf all considered with the 3 rounds of DE changes over the last 2 years.

    A second would be to limit the use of backstab to the first attack outside of stealth as this would also force DE's to use BV (and not have shadow meld) and would also give the victim a chance to cleanse and dodge, CC, invul, etc. This would fix all the thief classes in one change but Mirage/SoulBeast burst would need to be nerfed as well. (Mirage is as much an issue as DE as far as burst goes) I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting but Mirage and SB come to mind.

    Either way DE would have to be buffed in several other ways as these are fairly heavy handed nerfs that would probably kill the spec in its current state. The spec is all about stealth. That is the point and that is what is fun about it. As it has been said to the point of ad nauseam, try the spec if you want to understand it better as it is not a swiss army knife of trait benefits as some make it out to be. Please post your build that "does it all" if you have found the DE holy grail that checks off all the boxes for every capability in the game.

    And yes, I do play DE.

  • SoV.5139SoV.5139 Member ✭✭✭

    @Widmo.3186 said:
    The reason why GW2 stealth is not WoW stealth is that most skills are free-target casts. Especially 1 that has no cd (except stealth abilities) and on most characters is free-targetable. In WoW you either need to have targeted sth or use AoE that has cast time/big cooldown/low range (or youre just DH). So please, dont compare those 2 mechanics because if you wanted to have WoW stealth in GW2 you would need to rebuild whole game.

    No need to rebuild the whole game. All they would need to do is make stealth not stack-able, and get rid of the counter to the counter - the ability to remove revealed. This would allow DE to still get the drop, same as a WOW rogue can, but doing so means they have to still outplay the ambush victim the rest of the way. They no longer get to ambush and eliminate counterplay if they begin to lose the fight after the ambush.

  • Sanity Obscure.6054Sanity Obscure.6054 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2018

    Just make it where we can't crit immediately out of stealth with a ranged weapon... We already get a free shot with the enemy not seeing our location. Stack up stealths our build allows and we are free to repeatedly have large hits from a distance and then vanishing again before ever taking any direct enemy response.

  • Kovu.7560Kovu.7560 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @geist.4126 said:

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @Optimator.3589 said:
    Shouldn't be able to enter stealth while in combat. It's that simple. Whatever its other failings, WoW handled stealth far better than this game.

    How many classes run stealth in wow?

    Same number as in GW2. Mesmer/Thief vs. Rogue/Feral. An engineer or ranger isn't exactly running stealth just because they have one skill that stealthes them for a short time.

    Do you even play GW2? Rangers Druids have more stealth than mesmers.

    Fixed. (And I'd take any Mesmer spec over Druid for roaming, these days.)

    ~ Kovu

    Ranger main before it was cool.
    Fort Aspenwood.

  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hesacon.8735 said:
    Stealth doesn't bother me. Stealthing for the fourth time in 10 seconds is a little much.

    anet should implement diminishing return for stealth while in combat, each subsequent stealth during combat the duration get 50% -> 25% -> 13%

    also, while in combat if they move with run they will reveal their outline but will not be targetable, they need to stay still or use walk to not reveal anything, just like how mobs in Korna story is able to detect us if we are running right in front of them while stealthed.

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  • Dami.5046Dami.5046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Be thankful then that A-net never brought out 'alarm' mini pets to detect enemies like Aion did. But then again most of the world you could be attacked, not just a couple of maps.

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Optimator.3589 said:
    Shouldn't be able to enter stealth while in combat. It's that simple. Whatever its other failings, WoW handled stealth far better than this game.

    You'll have to redesign the entire Thief spec for this suggestion..

    As for stealth is concerned, stealth is fine in this game once you learn how to counter it or handle it, can be an extremely unfair mechanic for newer players or less experienced players to deal with but otherwise fine and almost mundane.

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
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  • Odokuro.5049Odokuro.5049 Member ✭✭✭

    These kind of threads, are like a nightmare you never wake up from. Honestly instead of asking for mechanics to be removed or for them to be nerf'd, work on ways to overcome them. There are many ways to reveal a stealthed target, such as skills, traits, and traps. I feel it would be best to overcome challenges by using strategy and smarts, then asking for an already easy/casual-friendly game to be watered down in favor of making it more faceroll-to-victory.

    The Self-Appointed Pervy Sage of Dragonbrand.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Odokuro.5049 said:
    These kind of threads, are like a nightmare you never wake up from. Honestly instead of asking for mechanics to be removed or for them to be nerf'd, work on ways to overcome them. There are many ways to reveal a stealthed target, such as skills, traits, and traps. I feel it would be best to overcome challenges by using strategy and smarts, then asking for an already easy/casual-friendly game to be watered down in favor of making it more faceroll-to-victory.

    Buh memser OP!?

  • Nate.3927Nate.3927 Member ✭✭
    edited November 1, 2018

    If this is another complaint about deadeye stealth DJ attack. The deadeye is actually revealed for a short while before they attack. That gives you a chance to dodge or break LoS. Now if the deadeye is attacking you from behind and you cannot see that brief moment of revealed, the exact same thing will happen to you against any class that can do a big burst from a reasonable range. The stealth doesn't actually factor into it. A bursty ranger/mesmer/warrior/necro/revenant/engineer/elementalist/guardian surprising you from behind will kill you just as quickly as the deadeye and all of them except maybe mesmer requires significantly less setup.

    The only real advantage that a thief/mesmer has is that IF they fail their burst, it is easier for them to disengage and run away. But at that point you should have your guard up and have no more excuses for losing beyond "they are better than you".

  • @Optimator.3589 said:
    Shouldn't be able to enter stealth while in combat. It's that simple. Whatever its other failings, WoW handled stealth far better than this game.

    I vehemently disagree, friend. WoW has done nothing better than GW2. I've played both games extensively, and in my humble opinion, GW2 is far superior in every way - especially when stealth is concerned.

  • Hitman.5829Hitman.5829 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Stealth along with high mobility is what makes this game so broken. Usually, other games that introduce stealth mechanics have the following:

    • Reduce running speed while in stealth
    • Cannot re-stealth while in combat
    • Stealth classes do not have high mobility.

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  • spartan.9421spartan.9421 Member ✭✭✭

    @SoV.5139 said:

    @Optimator.3589 said:
    Shouldn't be able to enter stealth while in combat. It's that simple. Whatever its other failings, WoW handled stealth far better than this game.

    Agreed.
    Once the ambush happens the player is now committed to the fight. They dont get to escape and reset every time they begin to lose.

    Yeah let's just destroy the core fundamentals of thief. While were at it, mesmers are limited to only being able to summon one clone per battle. No more of this continuous summoning.

    As for rangers, if their pet dies in combat, they have to go and tame a new one. None of this regeneration out of combat bullkitten.

    For warriors they can only use burst skills once. Totally unfair for them to constantly be building adrenaline when no other class can.

    Guardians shouldn't even be able to fight. If they are so virtuous they wouldn't kill people.

    Revenants shouldn't be able to call on a legend without first performing a ritual of some sort and should not be able to that in combat.

    Engineers have to go school for 4+ years before they can even think about entering combat.

    Elementalists can only attune to one element during a fight. They should have to commit to an element before hand. They shouldn't get to swap.

    Necromancers should just be removed altogether. Completely amoral to use the dead as minions.

    Oh! And while we're busy gutting the game, let's remove the dodge mechanic! It's an unfair mechanic because I don't understand it, therefore no one should be allowed to have it!

    Also, if someone is wearing heavy armor, they move much slower and attack slower than someone in light armor. It's unfair that they should move just as fast while having more defense!

    Whoever closes his ear to the cry of the poor will himself call out and not be answered.

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