Will Condi Thief ever make a comeback?

You guys think condi thief might make a comeback before the year is over? Or maybe see a resurgence on the next xpac?

I still play condi daredevil every now and again and it does reasonably well vs a lot of specs. DA trick DD with impairing daggers and dash, just immobing people in choking gas with all the mobility of meta D/P. It's not as strong as it was a year and a half ago because it's seen a few nerfs plus a few builds can now totally counter condis as a reaction to scourge's introduction (firebrand, spellbreaker, druid, SA thief all are basically immune when played right) so sometimes you just have to disengage but it can be a fun spec still.

Honestly it's in a healthier place than it was, I remember being able to kill just about anything with that spec. Problem with condi is it's all or nothing, you either kill easily or you can't wear them down at all depending on their cleanse and that leads to some very rock paper scissors matchups.

Condi-Thief still work well. Why would it need a resurgence? It's a goddamn plague in full trailblazers in WvW.

Bro. Condi thief was never out of the game. And with great pleasure i must say i have noticed increase in number of us fellow condi thieves. For more Condi Trappers. Just yesterday i faced twice in a row same condi DD trapper named Cursedeye. He was really good. Even i had issues with facing back the power of that condi (pun intended) ;) Condi is in a good spot rn guys. Dont be afraid to pull out those venoms maybe even traps if you are brave enough :D

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:I still play condi daredevil every now and again and it does reasonably well vs a lot of specs. DA trick DD with impairing daggers and dash, just immobing people in choking gas with all the mobility of meta D/P. It's not as strong as it was a year and a half ago because it's seen a few nerfs plus a few builds can now totally counter condis as a reaction to scourge's introduction (firebrand, spellbreaker, druid, SA thief all are basically immune when played right) so sometimes you just have to disengage but it can be a fun spec still.

Honestly it's in a healthier place than it was, I remember being able to kill just about anything with that spec. Problem with condi is it's all or nothing, you either kill easily or you can't wear them down at all depending on their cleanse and that leads to some very rock paper scissors matchups.

First of all Happy to meet a fellow condi teef :D i indeed saw them really scarcely until like last five days.Second of all I totally agree with the fact Condi is now in better state. It is still spamable and it does quite a lot of damage. But at least now you wont get oneshoted. As i said I've met several Condi thieves lately and the Condi burst is insane. I have 20k health and in one second of them on me if i wont use condi cleanse i am down to 12/13 k it is strong.Also the condi cleanse is a big NOPE for a condi thief. First of all if i am counting right we are applying 3,5 (poisin,bleed,tornment maybe confusion ocasionally) damaging conditions and 3 (imob, criple, slow) movement impairing ones. And that is 6 condis on an enemy if you burst it out. He can clean that with a single condi cleanse (i am glaring at them elementalists (-.- ) ) Also engineers or so called the Magical well of boons. It is still hard to apply them that is why it is so satisfying to kill enemy with these builds :)So keep at it :D

I saw two thieves using P/D even in recent days. Condi Thief is a niche group but we exist and can be quite effective.

I would agree about certain cleanse heavy match ups that are virtually impossible if the enemy plays right. But you can usually work around that if you understand their cleanse mechanics. It can be a bit tough though so you can’t win every matchup at this point in time.

Maybe if we got some cleanse nerfs overall Condi Thief can be more viable.

P/d still works well and I still play one. D/D condition I found a lot more limiting it being very effective against poorer players and dropping off noticebly against the better or when facing a heavy condition cleanse opponent. That said I have not really played D/D condition since the DE spec came out. I still do not find that there enough in the DD line to help condition builds that you can not get elsewhere from a damage perspective. In fact I went to core on my d/d condition build when I was using it and found it more effective from a purely damage standpoint. (You take DD for survival)

The main reasons I prefer DE over DD in a condition spc thief are the MIGHT adds which lead to higher ticks and is relatively easy , the stay at range to apply steal which is significant in a p/d build when facing scourges or Spellbreakers , and the more varied condition adds on the steal which are then coupled with Improv and Mercy reset for HUGE bursts. (20 bleeds 2 poison and 12 confusion with weakness while adding 20 might JUST on the steal is more then I can ever get out of DD). Mix that in with payback for faster utility cooldown and you can get those venoms/traps or other utilities back faster for another spike.

@saerni.2584 said:I saw two thieves using P/D even in recent days. Condi Thief is a niche group but we exist and can be quite effective.Dear god. p/d? I cant really imagine that working. I have tried it myself several times because i loved the amount of troment you could stack on your target. But i mean.The shadowstep away is r 600 i mean that is not enough even for imobilized foe. At best you could cripple them. Also your AA is pistol 1 which really isnt strong AA not to mention if you would throw urself in stealth and would still be firing or accidentally would press one (chaining works as well here) you are automatically revealed. The 4 stacks of tornment on p 3 really isnt that much of a miracle for the risk you are putting yourself into. and the shadowstep wont evade for you. Another thief would simply steal to you. With propper build Guardian could do it as well. And as a condi build you are handing over just 2 condis Bleeds and Tronment. Ocasionally some poison but that 1 or 2 stacks of poison with dmg 500 at best are really not worth it. That wouldnt scratch even full zerk thief. which would and did btw wreck this build several times over.

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

@saerni.2584 said:I saw two thieves using P/D even in recent days. Condi Thief is a niche group but we exist and can be quite effective.Dear god. p/d? I cant really imagine that working. I have tried it myself several times because i loved the amount of troment you could stack on your target. But i mean.The shadowstep away is r 600 i mean that is not enough even for imobilized foe. At best you could cripple them. Also your AA is pistol 1 which really isnt strong AA not to mention if you would throw urself in stealth and would still be firing or accidentally would press one (chaining works as well here) you are automatically revealed. The 4 stacks of tornment on p 3 really isnt that much of a miracle for the risk you are putting yourself into. and the shadowstep wont evade for you. Another thief would simply steal to you. With propper build Guardian could do it as well. And as a condi build you are handing over just 2 condis Bleeds and Tronment. Ocasionally some poison but that 1 or 2 stacks of poison with dmg 500 at best are really not worth it. That wouldnt scratch even full zerk thief. which would and did btw wreck this build several times over.

I'm not a condi thief main by any stretch, Saerni and Babaz are definitely the ones to listen to when talking about those builds but I am a thief main and I like making builds so I do play it when I feel like it :)

P/D is a surprisingly strong set even now, I use P/D and shortbow when I play condi with shortbow being my main weapon. P/D I save for when something insists on coming close, and use 3 to kite and 2 to apply immob and poison. The auto plus sneak attacks can add significant amounts of bleeds too, and I often use that to force cleanses on stuff like druids before using my main spike. The main issue I encounter with it is that there are a lot more specs that can spike hard from range than there were in HoT what with deadeye and soulbeast being a thing, and more builds like scourge and holo that severely punish being in melee range. Add to that the generally higher levels of cleanse throughout several classes now, and I find the mobility and evade built into shortbow is generally more useful than P/D unless I'm 1v1 and know I don't need to deal with additional players. Those that build with SA or DE may find find this is less true in their case.

I play very hit and run style, full trailblazer with thorns or trapper runes (depends how meme-y I feel like being that day), DA 321 trickery 133 DD 322. My main attack is precasting impairing daggers with steal then placing choking gas for the daze spam along with absorption and draining sigils on shortbow and torment on interrupt is very powerful still. I use dash for the motility over the condi dodge, with shortbow you're still only going to be outrun by a mirage and you can kill them with a well timed spike, and the needle trap on heal or utility is very useful to use when being chased to set up a spike or on downed to set up on those trying to res. Running carrion with some viper with thorns runes to get 2k power is viable as well, if you want to add pulmonary impact damage in there too. It's much squishier than trailblazer so works better 1v1 than 1vX, but between the poison (4k ticks pretty easily with a full spike), torment (1k ish), draining sigil (1k per interrupt) and PI procs (2-3k depending on your power/might) you can absolutely destroy something within a couple of seconds if they take a couple of interrupts, and it has the benefit of bypassing the standard defenses like endure pain and resistance as it's hybrid by nature. I find D/P better than P/D for that kind of build tho, with dagger training and headshot it just opens up more ways to attack.

Shadow trap is a very fun thing to play with on this type of build too, place two needle traps and a shadow trap in a choke point (entrances to camps are great), and sit in line of sight but far away from the trap. The turn in the tunnel of the north entrance of red ogre camp in EB is a great place for this, you can use the corner to your advantage. Wait for something to trigger the traps, port onto them with shadow trap (you'll have stealth when you do, so you can let the condis tick for a second or two) and either use your two needle traps again or spam choking gas, very few things will live through that. I've killed three people at once doing that, and the beautiful thing is that you can vary where the traps are and watch people second guess themselves. This is also a hilarious way to annoy non thieves and practically guarantees salty whispers ^^

I don't see it used very often these days, but venom share with thieves guild can be devastating when used right if more than a bit cheesy as your thieves can force a cleanse before you unload your own condi burst. With payback reducing the cooldowns on skills on kill from deadeye I imagine this would be more viable than it was in more sustained fights too, if mixed with choking gas and a trap or two.

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Jack Redline.5379 said:I'm not a condi thief main by any stretch, Saerni and Babaz are definitely the ones to listen to when talking about those builds but I am a thief main and I like making builds so I do play it when I feel like it :)

You gave me bamboozle right in this sentence xD but i kept on reading xD

P/D is a surprisingly strong set even now, I use P/D and shortbow when I play condi with shortbow being my main weapon. P/D I save for when something insists on coming close, and use 3 to kite and 2 to apply immob and poison. The auto plus sneak attacks can add significant amounts of bleeds too, and I often use that to force cleanses on stuff like druids before using my main spike. The main issue I encounter with it is that there are a lot more specs that can spike hard from range than there were in HoT what with deadeye and soulbeast being a thing, and more builds like scourge and holo that severely punish being in melee range. Add to that the generally higher levels of cleanse throughout several classes now, and I find the mobility and evade built into shortbow is generally more useful than P/D unless I'm 1v1 and know I don't need to deal with additional players. Those that build with SA or DE may find find this is less true in their case.

But that is not running p/d as your main w. set that is running it as secondary weapon = your main set is sb. Which truth be told is the main set even for d/d builds. If you find yourself in a situation when you face more than one foe. You wont waste ini on spamming 3 you will pull out sb and poison whole area like mad man. then you use your Dagger storm and job well done. Then if they still alive you pull out d/d and dance the death dance on them.But the thing is you can go d/d into 1v1 fight i personally can handle 2v1 but that is cuz i am trapper and i play that since forever. Also the golden rank helps a lot xD trying to beat through that roof to get to plat to see more. But the thing is you cant go p/d on someone. Lets say d/d and p/d are gonna face same class. Let it be mesmer since there is a whole bunch of them in game now. d/d has a chance = evade on spam if you target the right mesmer you simply hunt him down with 3's . p/d doesnt = no evade you have ranged AA which will target clones cuz they are in your way not to mention they are Atom bombs that will do you big Auch when the mesmer blows them. You can get away from that by ur 3 skill but then mesmer will send more of them. And this way you will not be able to hunt him down he will simply push you away from your point. And your job as a thief = 0. (capping)

I play very hit and run style, full trailblazer with thorns or trapper runes (depends how meme-y I feel like being that day), DA 321 trickery 133 DD 322.

I read the build and i figured you are talking about WvW.I am talking PvP.(-.-)Two completely different worlds. I dont paly WvW so i cant speak for that but in PvP outside unranked you wont do with p/d.

Shadow trap is a very fun...

Definitelly WvW. Sorry not my field.

I don't see it used very often these days, but venom share with thieves guild can be devastating when used right if more than a bit cheesy as your thieves can force a cleanse before you unload your own condi burst. With payback reducing the cooldowns on skills on kill from deadeye I imagine this would be more viable than it was in more sustained fights too, if mixed with choking gas and a trap or two.

One more thing. TG is really risky choice for Elite. Even if you'd run Improvisation. You dont need to recharge your elite. You dont need to even recharge any of your utilities.In that case if your thieves either die or run out of time. you are all alone. And you would not survive against the new condi cleansing shower of Elementalist or even Engineer which would btw have perma block all the time your thieves would ''do their thing''-If it is working for you in WvW (p/d build) it is good. But i really dont thing in PvP it would be a good idea.

Cheers

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Jack Redline.5379 said:I'm not a condi thief main by any stretch, Saerni and Babaz are definitely the ones to listen to when talking about those builds but I am a thief main and I like making builds so I do play it when I feel like it :)

P/D is a surprisingly strong set even now, I use P/D and shortbow when I play condi with shortbow being my main weapon. P/D I save for when something insists on coming close, and use 3 to kite and 2 to apply immob and poison. The auto plus sneak attacks can add significant amounts of bleeds too, and I often use that to force cleanses on stuff like druids before using my main spike. The main issue I encounter with it is that there are a lot more specs that can spike hard from range than there were in HoT what with deadeye and soulbeast being a thing, and more builds like scourge and holo that severely punish being in melee range. Add to that the generally higher levels of cleanse throughout several classes now, and I find the mobility and evade built into shortbow is generally more useful than P/D unless I'm 1v1 and know I don't need to deal with additional players. Those that build with SA or DE may find find this is less true in their case.

I play very hit and run style, full trailblazer with thorns or trapper runes (depends how meme-y I feel like being that day), DA 321 trickery 133 DD 322.

Shadow trap is a very fun...

I don't see it used very often these days, but venom share with thieves guild can be devastating when used right if more than a bit cheesy as your thieves can force a cleanse before you unload your own condi burst. With payback reducing the cooldowns on skills on kill from deadeye I imagine this would be more viable than it was in more sustained fights too, if mixed with choking gas and a trap or two.

That's fair, and yeah, I'm mostly talking from a WvW standpoint. PvP is too restrictive in terms of amulets and stats for certain builds and weaponsets to work ino so I find WvW waaaaay more fun to make builds for ^^

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Jack Redline.5379 said:I'm not a condi thief main by any stretch, Saerni and Babaz are definitely the ones to listen to when talking about those builds but I am a thief main and I like making builds so I do play it when I feel like it :)

P/D is a surprisingly strong set even now, I use P/D and shortbow when I play condi with shortbow being my main weapon. P/D I save for when something insists on coming close, and use 3 to kite and 2 to apply immob and poison. The auto plus sneak attacks can add significant amounts of bleeds too, and I often use that to force cleanses on stuff like druids before using my main spike. The main issue I encounter with it is that there are a lot more specs that can spike hard from range than there were in HoT what with deadeye and soulbeast being a thing, and more builds like scourge and holo that severely punish being in melee range. Add to that the generally higher levels of cleanse throughout several classes now, and I find the mobility and evade built into shortbow is generally more useful than P/D unless I'm 1v1 and know I don't need to deal with additional players. Those that build with SA or DE may find find this is less true in their case.

I play very hit and run style, full trailblazer with thorns or trapper runes (depends how meme-y I feel like being that day), DA 321 trickery 133 DD 322.

Shadow trap is a very fun...

I don't see it used very often these days, but venom share with thieves guild can be devastating when used right if more than a bit cheesy as your thieves can force a cleanse before you unload your own condi burst. With payback reducing the cooldowns on skills on kill from deadeye I imagine this would be more viable than it was in more sustained fights too, if mixed with choking gas and a trap or two.

Saerni plays PvP from what I understand. I msyself prefer WvW. It not just the static nature of the amulets , it the whole thing about capping and decapping points which can not be done while stealthed and P/d built around stealth.

In sPvP I'm platinum ranked running solely as P/D condi. I have run it in WvW as well but I've been less active on that lately (too much time commitment).

The build I use is based around consistent damage application and it spikes pretty high as well. I could swap out a few traits to improve damage but the loss of flexibility is why I prefer to build more sustain into the build.

@"Jack Redline.5379" In general I fight each match up on a very build vs build basis. Some opponents are just mechanically hard for me to deal with. I don't think my build is "OP" in the same way that players complain about permastealth rifle DE. I would also say the build is more group support oriented in the number of crowd control effects available on the weapon set.

Here are some thoughts that might be helpful to someone trying a P/D build:

1. Your concern about shots revealing you is valid but you do learn to play around certain abilities. I have a keybind linked to my mouse for sheathing my weapons. I also use other methods of interrupting my auto attacks when reapplying my Mark on a target. It isn't ideal but the ability to project damage via a pistol is worth the trouble of dealing with projectiles (same being true for dealing with reflects, etc.).
2. Dancing Dagger is really a valuable skill when you can't target your opponent. Scrapper, Ranger, and Mesmer all produce NPCs that can be targeted and that Dancing Dagger can bounce off of. Using this in certain contexts builds up a massive amount of cripple and torment.
3. Body Shot (using Deadshot amulet) is a 2 second immobilize. The poison is nice, but the positional control is huge. You can lock down some builds entirely. This lets your team land their bursts and contributes to your own survival as well.
4. Shadow Strike is situational and very nice for escaping from melee heavy opponents. The trick to using it, however, is in the positioning. Sometimes it is more effective to dodge or just physically reposition yourself before using the Shadow Strike. You also might want to using Dancing Dagger first to make timing the Shadow Strike easier. Don't be afraid to using a dodge in melee range before hitting a Shadow Strike because opponents will waste their important attacks in melee range and then struggle to deal with you teleporting backwards to 600+ range. Don't forget that you should always be moving and not relying solely on the teleport to kite.
5. On DE, Malicious Sneak Attack adds quite significant torment. If you run Deadshot Amulet/Tormenting Runes and Sigils of Venom and Malice with Deadly Arts you can get ~83% poison and torment duration. This is enough to seriously hurt anyone who runs out of cleanses no matter what particular abilities you hit them with.
6. Shortbow benefits from Deadly Arts. Panic Strike lets your immobilize (stealth attack on shortbow is a potential AoE immobilize) apply poison and the Choking Gas stun effect is great for cleave on downed. Choking Gas is also unblockable and good in combination with Binding Shadow because of the immobilize and extra poison and vulnerability built into Binding Shadow.
7. DE with Payback is good. You get a 33% (sPvP) cooldown reduction on all utilities. HiS loses 10 seconds of recharge per kill of a marked target. Shadowstep also loses significant recharge time with every kill. This includes your elite (Shadow Meld charges come back sooner and make you much harder to kill) and you also get Binding Shadow very often. This lets you contribute consistently in team fights with extra boonrip, hard cc and damage (vuln/poison). All this means more stealth and more Sneak Attacks that benefit from any Malice built up in the course of combat.

@saerni.2584

Deadeyes (-.-)

@saerni.2584 said:In sPvP I'm platinum ranked running solely as P/D condi. I have run it in WvW as well but I've been less active on that lately (too much time commitment).

The build I use is based around consistent damage application and it spikes pretty high as well. I could swap out a few traits to improve damage but the loss of flexibility is why I prefer to build more sustain into the build.

@"Jack Redline.5379" In general I fight each match up on a very build vs build basis. Some opponents are just mechanically hard for me to deal with. I don't think my build is "OP" in the same way that players complain about permastealth rifle DE. I would also say the build is more group support oriented in the number of crowd control effects available on the weapon set.

Here are some thoughts that might be helpful to someone trying a P/D build:

1. Your concern about shots revealing you is valid but you do learn to play around certain abilities. I have a keybind linked to my mouse for sheathing my weapons. I also use other methods of interrupting my auto attacks when reapplying my Mark on a target. It isn't ideal but the ability to project damage via a pistol is worth the trouble of dealing with projectiles (same being true for dealing with reflects, etc.).
2. Dancing Dagger is really a valuable skill when you can't target your opponent. Scrapper, Ranger, and Mesmer all produce NPCs that can be targeted and that Dancing Dagger can bounce off of. Using this in certain contexts builds up a massive amount of cripple and torment.
3. Body Shot (using Deadshot amulet) is a 2 second immobilize. The poison is nice, but the positional control is huge. You can lock down some builds entirely. This lets your team land their bursts and contributes to your own survival as well.
4. Shadow Strike is situational and very nice for escaping from melee heavy opponents. The trick to using it, however, is in the positioning. Sometimes it is more effective to dodge or just physically reposition yourself before using the Shadow Strike. You also might want to using Dancing Dagger first to make timing the Shadow Strike easier. Don't be afraid to using a dodge in melee range before hitting a Shadow Strike because opponents will waste their important attacks in melee range and then struggle to deal with you teleporting backwards to 600+ range. Don't forget that you should always be moving and not relying solely on the teleport to kite.
5. On DE, Malicious Sneak Attack adds quite significant torment. If you run Deadshot Amulet/Tormenting Runes and Sigils of Venom and Malice with Deadly Arts you can get ~83% poison and torment duration. This is enough to seriously hurt anyone who runs out of cleanses no matter what particular abilities you hit them with.
6. Shortbow benefits from Deadly Arts. Panic Strike lets your immobilize (stealth attack on shortbow is a potential AoE immobilize) apply poison and the Choking Gas stun effect is great for cleave on downed. Choking Gas is also unblockable and good in combination with Binding Shadow because of the immobilize and extra poison and vulnerability built into Binding Shadow.
7. DE with Payback is good. You get a 33% (sPvP) cooldown reduction on all utilities. HiS loses 10 seconds of recharge per kill of a marked target. Shadowstep also loses significant recharge time with every kill. This includes your elite (Shadow Meld charges come back sooner and make you much harder to kill) and you also get Binding Shadow very often. This lets you contribute consistently in team fights with extra boonrip, hard cc and damage (vuln/poison). All this means more stealth and more Sneak Attacks that benefit from any Malice built up in the course of combat.

Could you post your build or even better a YouTube vid?

Would love to play something other than s/d. Which isn't even remotely as good as other classes that r meta. It's just so much easier to play another class thats meta and win.

I'd like to see some up to date gameplay with p/d as well, and using de.

When i get home i will post my build and will try to dig up some footage so you can see it working

I can record a game maybe. The build is the one in the Deadeye 2.5 thread.

@TorQ.7041 said:

@"saerni.2584" said:Could you post your build or even better a YouTube vid?

Here as i promised build and YT link. I know in two or three fights i get downed but at the end i actually survive that because some friendly comes and finishes up the dead enemy. The rest was killed i just dont have the best update speed so i cut it after i down the enemy. They do get killed after i promise :) Its just 5min vid was updating for 2 and a half hour so... i was cutting edges xD

Build

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoYVn8lCFOhtNBOmC0PhltiybCqxLQLFDgyae5f+rH-jJxHQBA4EAQwjBgRKDQm9HAA

YT link

Cheers

Some of you are fairly delusional. I used to main condi thief in wvw/spvp, "used to". There is a reason for that, and it is not because condi is in a good state right now. This year condi thief was gutted down pretty hard, I switch over to rifle DE and have not looked back.

@"Xtinct.7031" said:

Ah we have a traitor here.

The rest of us remained fighing while you retreated to Deadeyes. Gl with that. We shall meet on the field. (maybe depends on matchmaking)

condi thief is like playing PvE its to easy its no fun it could get nerfed again and its still playable. i dunno how u guys play condi but when i go troll on thief and buy all crappy exotic gear i simply wreck anything on my path.

i mean u can dodge like a fool.u got stealthu got insane amount of ways to apply poison to reduce their healing.u got tons of condi preasure during evade frames.

thief + condi is just stupidly easy, tbh i have never enjoyed condi thief cus in my eyes its to easy.even a rifle deadeye has more risk of dieing while being perma stealth then a condi thief xD

Don't worry, there are still plenty of D/D daredevils spamming DB and dodge.

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

@"Xtinct.7031" said:

He's not totally wrong tho, the spec has been gutted pretty hard. It's why I pretty much play it when I'm bored, or trolling people with traps to see how much salt I can generate.

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

@"Xtinct.7031" said:

P/d condi spec is fine and has never really been gutted. In fact it saw a number of boosts.

1>More torment stacks were added to #32>Torment added to sneak attack if in DE.3>CND Ini cost lowered. More Vuln stacks added.4>Torment added to dancing dagger5>boosts to SA line which most P/d users rely on.

Now if you spec into DE you also get more access to stealth via the stealh with full malice mechanic, abundant MIGHT status , the ability to MERCY reset and the very useful Payback trait. If anything P/d is more then it was a year ago.

I can not think of any direct nerfs to the spec off hand. Imapling Lotus was certainly downgraed but that was never big in a p/d build.