Siege Disabler disproportionately effective

The benefit compared to supply and body cost is too high.

A single person with 10 supply can disable all (target limit?) siege in a 300 radius circle at 1200 range for 35 seconds. It can be repeated as long as there's supply. The skill required to use is low with the large number of invulnerability/stealth/blink skills available.

Supposedly these can be reflected, but I have yet to see that work. Even if reflect was possible, it requires multiple players to achieve 100% reflect up time.

This type of play has no counter and diminishes the value of using defensive siege (why spend 100s of supply on defensive siege that must be refreshed every 60 minutes when you just need one or two players to use siege disablers).

The net result is one player with 10s of supply can counter a much larger team using 100s of supply. The cost of use is too low for the result obtained.

Maybe a change to one disable per siege per 5 minutes would improve things here?

Its reflectable, destroyable and blockable. It also has a very simple tell (a person holding a "ball" or something in his right hand). You can easily negate these by droping reflect/destroy projectile fields on top/around of siege, or just stand on top of it with Aegis (body block the siege dissabler, it will consume Aegis)The only problem is that it can be used in stealth, but even then, you can easily reflect/destroy/block it.

Tend to agree. Probably should have an icd.

There is more than enough counterplay against disablers. You "just" need people to get to use the tools already at their disposal instead of treating siege time as "fool around" time.Just one easy example: you need 2 revs who (temporarily if you don't like it) slot Ventari to have 100% uptime on protective solace, which can fit e.g. 2-3 catas under it.

So many counters to these. It's a L2P issue - don't just stand around waiting for your multiple rams to PVD next time.

As for requesting something to make your karma train go choo choo faster- no.

Perhaps not stack 6 catapults in the same spot up against a wall?

@Israel.7056 said:Tend to agree. Probably should have an icd.

Did something change? Because they already have/had a ICD.

The radius is really the only issue with them, especially as it adds the bonus issue of disabling through doors.

Bless anyone who lands a disabler against a large group of enemies. I have about a 10% success rate myself...

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@Israel.7056 said:Tend to agree. Probably should have an icd.

I phrased that poorly. I meant to say there should be an icd on how often siege can be disabled. Like once per minute per piece of siege or something like that.

They are fine as they are. People just need to be on the alert with their anti projectile skills and keep pressure on walls/portals etc.

@"Glider.5792" said:Its reflectable, destroyable and blockable. It also has a very simple tell (a person holding a "ball" or something in his right hand). You can easily negate these by droping reflect/destroy projectile fields on top/around of siege, or just stand on top of it with Aegis (body block the siege dissabler, it will consume Aegis)The only problem is that it can be used in stealth, but even then, you can easily reflect/destroy/block it.

@"Awn.1327" said:There is more than enough counterplay against disablers. You "just" need people to get to use the tools already at their disposal instead of treating siege time as "fool around" time.Just one easy example: you need 2 revs who (temporarily if you don't like it) slot Ventari to have 100% uptime on protective solace, which can fit e.g. 2-3 catas under it.

@Baldrick.8967 said:So many counters to these. It's a L2P issue - don't just stand around waiting for your multiple rams to PVD next time.

As for requesting something to make your karma train go choo choo faster- no.

@"LaGranse.8652" said:They are fine as they are. People just need to be on the alert with their anti projectile skills and keep pressure on walls walls/portalc etc.

If the counter play involves multiple players "on alert", then that is still disproportionately effective.

Even if you do see the player coming, you need to lay the reflect in between the cast time and the landing of the disabler. Otherwise you can be baited to use your reflect cooldown while the siege disabler has no cooldown.

You may not see the disabler coming, literally, because of stealth.

Lastly, any character with invulnerability can simply walk inside your reflect and apply the disabler.

@juno.1840 said:

@"Glider.5792" said:Its reflectable, destroyable and blockable. It also has a very simple tell (a person holding a "ball" or something in his right hand). You can easily negate these by droping reflect/destroy projectile fields on top/around of siege, or just stand on top of it with Aegis (body block the siege dissabler, it will consume Aegis)The only problem is that it can be used in stealth, but even then, you can easily reflect/destroy/block it.

@"Awn.1327" said:There is more than enough counterplay against disablers. You "just" need people to get to use the tools already at their disposal instead of treating siege time as "fool around" time.Just one easy example: you need 2 revs who (temporarily if you don't like it) slot Ventari to have 100% uptime on protective solace, which can fit e.g. 2-3 catas under it.

@Baldrick.8967 said:So many counters to these. It's a L2P issue - don't just stand around waiting for your multiple rams to PVD next time.

As for requesting something to make your karma train go choo choo faster- no.

@"LaGranse.8652" said:They are fine as they are. People just need to be on the alert with their anti projectile skills and keep pressure on walls walls/portalc etc.

If sieging a structure means you only need to toss some siege and press F something is wrong. It is a siege, the defenders are suposed to have an advantage thus it will be disproportionate by design.

Like all other "traps" in WvW the action of starting to cast it will remove any stealth you had.

Pressure in form of necromarks and similar AoE's also give a clue if a stealthed player trigger them.

There are stealth disruptor traps you can place to protect from stealthed players comming by ground.

A siege dissabler tossed within a shield bubble (shield gen 3 or catapult 5) will stop projectiles even if tossed from inside. so those obvious invulnerable dissables can be stopped too.

@LaGranse.8652 said:It is a siege, the defenders are suposed to have an advantage

Why?

@"LaGranse.8652" said:If sieging a structure means you only need to toss some siege and press F something is wrong. It is a siege, the defenders are suposed to have an advantage thus it will be disproportionate by design.

Like all other "traps" in WvW the action of starting to cast it will remove any stealth you had.

Pressure in form of necromarks and similar AoE's also give a clue if a stealthed player trigger them.

There are stealth disruptor traps you can place to protect from stealthed players comming by ground.

A siege dissabler tossed within a shield bubble (shield gen 3 or catapult 5) will stop projectiles even if tossed from inside. so those obvious invulnerable dissables can be stopped too.

Your points are not practical, and here's why:

• Using stealth disrupter traps? Seriously? We should place like 20 of them in a 1200 radius around our siege? Even if this made sense at all, that would cost 200 supply to prevent one player from running with a 10 supply siege disabler.
• Pressure doesn't work if the incoming player has invulns
• The disabler will often hit the shield generator first (they cannot shield themselves with recent patch)
• Advantage for defenders is their own siege -- if defenders don't care to place their own siege because they can just use siege disablers, then that itself is a problem. See my original post where I said siege disablers "diminishes the value of using defensive siege".

I get what people are saying, but let's be honest -- it's way to easy to stop a large force with a low-cost siege disabler that has no cooldown for reapplication.

@juno.1840 said:

This type of play has no counter and diminishes the value of using defensive siege (why spend 100s of supply on defensive siege that must be refreshed every 60 minutes when you just need one or two players to use siege disablers).

Actually it makes defensive siege suddenly worthwhile ... unless you exclusively defend against siege attempts that have no bubbles on their catas and no shield generators, defensive siege is pointless as it gets absorbed 100% of the time.

They're fine. The primary goal of them is to stall, which is sometimes necessary for the defenders to muster a large enough force to fight with. After all, the goal is to promote fights, not PvD, right?

There is already a ~15s icd per person, so if you want to perma-disable, it'll take 2 people. Alternatively, you can just build siege far enough apart that it takes 2 disables per siege spot, or stack catas/shield gens and cycle bubbles.

If it's really still a problem, I'd suggest making siege invulnerable to damage while disabled. That way you can stall, but not repel the attackers.

@Justine.6351 said:Bless anyone who lands a disabler against a large group of enemies. I have about a 10% success rate myself...

Lol same for me. If I happen to land one with a group of 5+ attackers or so, I go buy a lottery ticket.

The disablers are fine as is for the many reasons given. Its so easy to prevent. I actually think they should lower the cooldown on it.

@binidj.5734 said:

@juno.1840 said:

This type of play has no counter and diminishes the value of using defensive siege (why spend 100s of supply on defensive siege that must be refreshed every 60 minutes when you just need one or two players to use siege disablers).

Except you can use the same tactic defensively. Bubbles protect walls as well.

If there's a stalemate of siege, you could always come out and fight with superior numbers. If you don't have superior numbers, then a stalemate is a win.

@"coro.3176" said:They're fine. The primary goal of them is to stall, which is sometimes necessary for the defenders to muster a large enough force to fight with. After all, the goal is to promote fights, not PvD, right?

There is already a ~15s icd per person, so if you want to perma-disable, it'll take 2 people. Alternatively, you can just build siege far enough apart that it takes 2 disables per siege spot, or stack catas/shield gens and cycle bubbles.

If it's really still a problem, I'd suggest making siege invulnerable to damage while disabled. That way you can stall, but not repel the attackers.

It has a 5 second cooldown, but lasts for 35 seconds. It can easily perma-disable.

Making the siege invulnerable while disabled is an interesting idea, but may allow you to be sabotaged by your own team mates. Also the game really needs fewer invulns, not more. Having a disable "time out" on siege is the best idea I've heard so far.

@juno.1840 said:

@"coro.3176" said:They're fine. The primary goal of them is to stall, which is sometimes necessary for the defenders to muster a large enough force to fight with. After all, the goal is to promote fights, not PvD, right?

There is already a ~15s icd per person, so if you want to perma-disable, it'll take 2 people. Alternatively, you can just build siege far enough apart that it takes 2 disables per siege spot, or stack catas/shield gens and cycle bubbles.

If it's

really

still a problem, I'd suggest making siege invulnerable to damage while disabled. That way you can stall, but not repel the attackers.

Mmm. Pretty sure it's 45 second (or more) cooldown once you've thrown it. I could be wrong. I'm not sure what that 5 refers to on the tooltip, but afaik, each person can only throw 1 disabler at a time even if they have 20 supply, and the lockout period lasts longer than the disable does.

! > @Israel.7056 said:! > > @LaGranse.8652 said:! > > It is a siege, the defenders are suposed to have an advantage! >! > Why?! >

Because the whole point about keeps and castles were that a smaller force of defenders could face off against a larger force without being instantly trampled, thus the defenders had a more favorable position. Historically when wars were though the offensive army had numbers much larger then the defenders, and the defenders would not beat them, however they did delay the attackers quite a bit which is just what the siege disabler does.

! > @juno.1840 said:! > > @"coro.3176" said:! > > They're fine. The primary goal of them is to stall, which is sometimes necessary for the defenders to muster a large enough force to fight with. After all, the goal is to promote fights, not PvD, right?! > >! > > There is already a ~15s icd per person, so if you want to perma-disable, it'll take 2 people. Alternatively, you can just build siege far enough apart that it takes 2 disables per siege spot, or stack catas/shield gens and cycle bubbles.! > >! > > If it's really still a problem, I'd suggest making siege invulnerable to damage while disabled. That way you can stall, but not repel the attackers.! >! > It has a 5 second cooldown, but lasts for 35 seconds. It can easily perma-disable.! >! > Making the siege invulnerable while disabled is an interesting idea, but may allow you to be sabotaged by your own team mates. Also the game really needs fewer invulns, not more. Having a disable "time out" on siege is the best idea I've heard so far.

Siege disablers have an internal cooldown longer than the disable time if they are thrown. You can test this by throwing one and instantly equipping another. 45 seconds internal cooldown sounds about right.

! > @juno.1840 said:! > > @LaGranse.8652 said:! > > If sieging a structure means you only need to toss some siege and press F something is wrong. It is a siege, the defenders are suposed to have an advantage thus it will be disproportionate by design.! > >! > > Like all other "traps" in WvW the action of starting to cast it will remove any stealth you had.! > >! > > Pressure in form of necromarks and similar AoE's also give a clue if a stealthed player trigger them.! > >! > > There are stealth disruptor traps you can place to protect from stealthed players comming by ground.! > >! > > A siege dissabler tossed within a shield bubble (shield gen 3 or catapult 5) will stop projectiles even if tossed from inside. so those obvious invulnerable dissables can be stopped too.! >! > Your points are not practical, and here's why:! >! > Using stealth disrupter traps? Seriously? We should place like 20 of them in a 1200 radius around our siege? Even if this made sense at all, that would cost 200 supply to prevent one player from running with a 10 supply siege disabler.! > Pressure doesn't work if the incoming player has invulns! > The disabler will often hit the shield generator first (they cannot shield themselves with recent patch)! > Advantage for defenders is their own siege -- if defenders don't care to place their own siege because they can just use siege disablers, then that itself is a problem. See my original post where I said siege disablers "diminishes the value of using defensive siege".! >! > I get what people are saying, but let's be honest -- it's way to easy to stop a large force with a low-cost siege disabler that has no cooldown for reapplication.! >

Nothing wrong with stealth disruptor traps. Place them where you think a stealth attempt might happen and 1 or 2 can prevent most approaches since the enemy will not expect them to be there.

Alright so there are only 4 invulnerability skills in this game. Only 2 of them can be active while using other skills and that is elementalist earth focus 5 Obsidian flesh and mesmer distorition. These last a maximum of 4 seconds in total, I am sure you have plenty of reflects and catapult bubbles available to cover these 4 seconds to foil their attempt. If not building catapults further from the wall will help.

Disablers can not replace defensive siege. Hitting a disabler give them breathing room however it deals no damage to the offensive siege itself. In order to repel the attack you have to run them out of supply and destroy the already built the siege else they get in given time.

@"LaGranse.8652" said:Because the whole point about keeps and castles were that a smaller force of defenders could face off against a larger force without being instantly trampled, thus the defenders had a more favorable position. Historically when wars were though the offensive army had numbers much larger then the defenders, and the defenders would not beat them, however they did delay the attackers quite a bit which is just what the siege disabler does.

Ok but this is a video game and a very unrealistic one in general to boot.

Take siege blueprints and supply for instance. Total video game mechanic contrivance. Siege weapons weren't constructed on the spot on top of little blueprint squares in seconds with wood and nails being carried around by soldiers in full plate armor. Siege equipment took lots of time and resources to make and they were being built by carpenters and blacksmiths not just soldiers.

Arrow carts in this game have an unlimited amount of arrows, ballistas and catapults and trebuchets reload themselves in seconds and never run out of ammo either. All of this stuff is totally unrealistic.

Also there's magic. Tons of magic.

So why should anyone care about anything in this game being "historically accurate" when the game is complete high fantasy and video game contrivance in pretty much every other way?

Siege disablers are fine as they are , as pointed out spread your siege and don't drop them all in one spot , what is the saying?? oh yeh it isn't rocket science, this is a l2p issue but then the hive mind comes into effect. Must make it easy for us to hurry on to next objective.