What is the point of the agony mechanic? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

What is the point of the agony mechanic?

Just seems like a lazy way to have players grind for gold just so they don't get one shot by a boss. I wouldn't have a problem with it if all agony could be dodged, but some bosses force you into agony and you have no way to avoid it which is just stupid, people will say they like agony progression and all that weak argument kitten, but in a game sense it literally makes no sense to have an agony system.

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Comments

  • I think agony is used mostly as a gear check sort of thing and to add difficulty to the fractals beyond the bosses and trash do more damage and have more health other than that I don't think it has much of a purpose. You can dodge some of the things from bosses that cause agony but not all of them.

  • @SilentSam.1589 said:
    I think agony is used mostly as a gear check sort of thing and to add difficulty to the fractals beyond the bosses and trash do more damage and have more health other than that I don't think it has much of a purpose. You can dodge some of the things from bosses that cause agony but not all of them.

    Gear check? Exotic and ascended only have a 3% difference, that is so minor.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2018

    @FizCap.6573 said:

    @SilentSam.1589 said:
    I think agony is used mostly as a gear check sort of thing and to add difficulty to the fractals beyond the bosses and trash do more damage and have more health other than that I don't think it has much of a purpose. You can dodge some of the things from bosses that cause agony but not all of them.

    Gear check? Exotic and ascended only have a 3% difference, that is so minor.

    Yes, the difference between Agony resistance of 0 and one high enough for the fractal tier you're in is definitely minor [/sarcasm]
    (it's also more than 3%, but that's besides the main point).

    It is anet's attempt at gear progression. They were originally saying it was just the first of similar mechanics planned for different content, so i'm really glad they abandoned that idea.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Clyan.1593Clyan.1593 Member ✭✭✭

    The only problem I see with AR is how - in comparison - crafting ascended gear is extensively more expensive and takes extensively longer to get than exotic gear.

    That alone shows how Anet tried to make up for the easy acquisition of exotic and lower gear.
    You would expect that from one tier to the next the upgrade will take proportionally longer, but instead you can get exotic gear just as fast as any of the lower tiers.

    That - imo - is why ascended gear and AR is so grindy. Way more grindy than it would be if only exotic gear wasn't such a mess from the start.

  • I've always thought that agony was there to put in a small check for healers in fractals. Encourage people to shuck and dive, instead of eating deathrays with their face.

    But overall, it works as a gear treadmill/gold sink, and unique resource to make money from. It provides a good form of progression, since agony doesn't worm its way into other facets of the game. As a barrier to entry it ensures that the player either has enough experience in fractals to get that agony resistance, or has earned enough gold to buy all of the bits.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    I've always thought that agony was there to put in a small check for healers in fractals. Encourage people to shuck and dive, instead of eating deathrays with their face.

    But overall, it works as a gear treadmill/gold sink, and unique resource to make money from. It provides a good form of progression, since agony doesn't worm its way into other facets of the game. As a barrier to entry it ensures that the player either has enough experience in fractals to get that agony resistance, or has earned enough gold to buy all of the bits.

    Nah its just outdated and unfair mechanic. You dont need experiance to.get enough ar just gold

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Clyan.1593 said:
    The only problem I see with AR is how - in comparison - crafting ascended gear is extensively more expensive and takes extensively longer to get than exotic gear.

    That alone shows how Anet tried to make up for the easy acquisition of exotic and lower gear.
    You would expect that from one tier to the next the upgrade will take proportionally longer, but instead you can get exotic gear just as fast as any of the lower tiers.

    That - imo - is why ascended gear and AR is so grindy. Way more grindy than it would be if only exotic gear wasn't such a mess from the start.

    I opened my GW2 account February 2018, and I have 3 fully ascended geared characters, that latest one completed back in September. I only do T4's on one of those characters so the others have about 100-110 AR, but I have about 60 +7 Infusions in my bank ready to trade in for +9s if that should change.

    Ascended gear is 'grindy' as far as GW2 is concerned, but a flat out joke in comparison to other MMO gear treadmills, and that's a good thing. GW2 doesn't use gear as the main driver for players, and one of its best strengths.

  • Clyan.1593Clyan.1593 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2018

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Clyan.1593 said:
    The only problem I see with AR is how - in comparison - crafting ascended gear is extensively more expensive and takes extensively longer to get than exotic gear.

    That alone shows how Anet tried to make up for the easy acquisition of exotic and lower gear.
    You would expect that from one tier to the next the upgrade will take proportionally longer, but instead you can get exotic gear just as fast as any of the lower tiers.

    That - imo - is why ascended gear and AR is so grindy. Way more grindy than it would be if only exotic gear wasn't such a mess from the start.

    I opened my GW2 account February 2018, and I have 3 fully ascended geared characters, that latest one completed back in September. I only do T4's on one of those characters so the others have about 100-110 AR, but I have about 60 +7 Infusions in my bank ready to trade in for +9s if that should change.

    Ascended gear is 'grindy' as far as GW2 is concerned, but a flat out joke in comparison to other MMO gear treadmills, and that's a good thing. GW2 doesn't use gear as the main driver for players, and one of its best strengths.

    First of all I didn't compare GW2 to any other MMO - so you are right but your argument isn't an answer to my statements.
    Secondly you ignore the cost factor which I, along with the time investment, did compare to exotic armor.

    So yes, the time investment and cost investment for higher gear compared to other mmo games is very low, but that's not what I was talking about at all.
    I'm talking about these things within the boundaries of GW2 itself, nothing else. You could go on to explain how the cost investment is meaningless as a factor since it's up to the player if he wants to spend money or start farming and grinding or not - however not spending gold on the items will increase the time investment.

    Now I opened my account when the game released and I have every class fully equipped with ascended gear - but that doesn't mean anything since no one knows how much time I actually spend playing the game. The same goes for you having stated you started in February 2018; that doesn't help me to validate the time or cost investment in ascended gear at all. And even if you did give us the needed information of how many hours per day you play, it's still a form of grind. Certain gear with stats like viper for example require items which are account bound and drop based on a chance, so that's another indication for grind.

    But none of that matters for what I originally said: That in comparison TO exotic gear crafting ascended gear needs disproportionately more investment from the player and that this is the result of a design issue from ANet. Anyone who has been around since release knows that, it was a problem that the vast majority of the community did complain about, because in the beginning there was no ascended gear and after one week you already were fully equipped with max stats gear.

    So just to be sure you understand what I say: You can get white, blue, green, yellow or orange gear with almost zero time or cost investment, while on the other hand ascended gear in COMPARISON is grindy and/or expensive as hell.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    I've always thought that agony was there to put in a small check for healers in fractals.

    There were no healers when they implemented it. That's something that happened much, much later.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • What is the point of the agony mechanic?

    tl;dr it's a little bit like your pinky toe: it had an important purpose, it's not really essential to us any longer, but try to remove it and you'll encounter strong resistance (no one wants to suffer the agony of defeat).


    Agony & Agony resistance, combined with the Personal Fractal Level was designed to gate the inexperienced from participating in the game's original "challenging group content." When the max fractal level was 50, it worked pretty well to do this: it was hard to progress without AR and hard to get AR without progressing. There were few sources of ascended gear, nearly all fractal oriented.

    Over time, for good reasons, ANet has made it easier to get ascended and vastly increased the number of infusion slots, making it easier & cheaper than ever to hit AR150. An unintended consequence of those sensible changes is that anyone with ~150-250 gold can gear up for T4 fractals, without having a clue about how they work. That's great for the best players among us, great for people with alts, great for guilds that don't mind training/carrying guildies. It can be horrid for the merely "good" player trying to crawl their way up (especially T3).

    ANet has spoken about this a couple of times: they cannot easily change the system. AR and the infusion system is a key element in the economic benefits of fractaling and of stat-boosting infusions. And it's built in as part of the newer reward of fractal titles.

    So it's no longer close to the theoretically best way to gate challenging content nor to reward players, but it can't be disentangled to make it worth overhauling. At least, not soon.

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • Hesacon.8735Hesacon.8735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Agony is what makes fractals superior to raids. It's a reasonable barrier to entry that prevents people who aren't going to take it seriously from ruining your run.

    At least, in theory.

  • @Hesacon.8735 said:
    Agony is what makes fractals superior to raids. It's a reasonable barrier to entry that prevents people who aren't going to take it seriously from ruining your run.

    At least, in theory.

    Doesn't work in theory, there was times where I would have 80 agony resistance and I would be joining fractals that required 120-130 agony resistance and I succeeded.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2018

    I think it comes to that once upon of time there was no agony and fractals only had 50 levels. People use to do it in exotic gear, uphill,15 miles, in the snow.
    So when ascended was introduced it wouldn't be enough to just buff bosses damage and HP as those people were already strong, could have run fractals with close eyes, barefoot.
    So agony was introduced as well as slots for infusions on new ascended gear.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • @FizCap.6573 said:

    @Hesacon.8735 said:
    Agony is what makes fractals superior to raids. It's a reasonable barrier to entry that prevents people who aren't going to take it seriously from ruining your run.

    At least, in theory.

    Doesn't work in theory, there was times where I would have 80 agony resistance and I would be joining fractals that required 120-130 agony resistance and I succeeded.

    You're an exception to that particular gate. The vast majority of players do not succeed in most fractals without the relevant AR.
    And in any case, it's the original theory; in practice, it's been years since insufficient AR was a consistently successful method to reduce the number of inexperienced players. It's simply too easy to get AR150 without having stepped foot in the dungeon.

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2018

    @phs.6089 said:
    I think it comes to that once upon of time there was no agony and fractals only had 50 levels. People use to do it in exotic gear, uphill,15 miles, in the snow.
    So when ascended was introduced it wouldn't be enough to just buff bosses damage and HP as those people were already strong, could have run fractals with close eyes, barefoot.
    So agony was introduced as well as slots for infusions on new ascended gear.

    Not sure what game you're referring, but definitely not gw2. Agony (and agony reduction) was present since the first day of Fractals.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Grogba.6204Grogba.6204 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2018

    Any fractal with Social Awkwardness would instantly kill you with a 40-50 difference in AR as soon as you proc the effect and it will proc at least once in any fractal, even worse if you have classes with auto-movement on skills. And SA used to be in every fractal after a certain personal level was reached.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2018

    Agony mechanic is a remnant of way back when it got added in late 2013.

    So to explain, back then the basic idea was:

    • fractal bosses would do agony damage with some of their attacks (similar to now but there was no guaranteed agony check, all attack were dodge-able)
    • agony resistance was meant as a possibility to make up for bad play but if a player was good enough, he could complete fractals with less than required agony resistance (even as low as 0, some people in my group back then ran with 0 AR on fractal 40+)
    • as a matter of fact, back then only rings and backpiece were available and the maximum AR per slot was 5 (so a total of 30 AR were possible with 2 infused rings and an infused backpiece) which required a player to dodge certain boss attacks or instant die (only bosses back then were Swamp, Dredge and Jade Maw and mostly different version from today) (no ascended armor or weapons too)
    • agony resistance was never intended as a hard gate on initial release but rather as an added possible defense (and you could not get agony resistance AND stats back the though most people opted for the AR)
    • fractal rank was per character and the first few months only the exact fractal level you were on would increase your rank, making gear less significant since almost no one played multiple characters up. You picked a character and stuck with it, period.

    This all changed with multiple revamps to the fractal and agony system to what we have now, a hard gate with breakpoints making ascended armor required for T4.

    At the same time a ton of quality of life upgrades more than make up for this annoyance while also preventing to easy gearing up of characters

    TL;DR: agony resistance changed over the years and now fulfills a different role to what its original purpose was.

  • Klipso.8653Klipso.8653 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Agony artificially extends the lifespan of the content by creating a time sink that pushes the player to repeat low level fractals until they can eventually farm high level fractals and collect even more agony after they no longer need it.

    -Balwarc [ICoa]

  • The reason why agony was introduced was that people who just wanted to play WoW without paying a sub fee wanted to turn GW2 into WoW with no sub fee which a vast majority of people didn't want, they complained alot on the forums and such about the lack of gear progression, Anet mistook it as a majority opinion and introduced ascended stat items which received massive blowback after that happened.

    I remembered this like it was yesterday. One of the worst additions to the game that completely destroyed a lot of the balance in the game, especially since abilities back in the day were balanced around Rare gear.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    Agony resistance is ArenaNet's version of the gear treadmill. Now before people start crying, I think this is a good idea. It's a form of progression and it makes sure as someone said that new people first get to practice at lower levels first. As much as people didn't want gear progression at level 80, any MMO does need something like it. I think this is a pretty good version.

    Its not a gear treadmill, its progression past lvl 80. Gear treadmill would imply that u have to keep up to date and refarm ar which isnt the case.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @IllegalChocolate.6938 said:
    The reason why agony was introduced was that people who just wanted to play WoW without paying a sub fee wanted to turn GW2 into WoW with no sub fee which a vast majority of people didn't want, they complained alot on the forums and such about the lack of gear progression, Anet mistook it as a majority opinion and introduced ascended stat items which received massive blowback after that happened.

    I remembered this like it was yesterday. One of the worst additions to the game that completely destroyed a lot of the balance in the game, especially since abilities back in the day were balanced around Rare gear.

    If ppl wanted gw2 to turn to wow the raids would bring a new gear tier each time.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Ascended gear was introduced to add more depth to gearing in this game. It hardly turned anything into WoW. There was literally nothing to do in PvE after we had acquired our first exotic sets in pretty much no time. There needs to be something people can work towards, especially right after the release, or they'll simply move on to the next game. They added new stats, infusions and other things but nothing else has been done in over six years as they seem to deem ascended gear to be quite sufficient as far as gearing and gear depth is concerned. Agony may have been a mistake, ascended gear certainly was not.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    Agony resistance is ArenaNet's version of the gear treadmill. Now before people start crying, I think this is a good idea. It's a form of progression and it makes sure as someone said that new people first get to practice at lower levels first. As much as people didn't want gear progression at level 80, any MMO does need something like it. I think this is a pretty good version.

    Its not a gear treadmill, its progression past lvl 80. Gear treadmill would imply that u have to keep up to date and refarm ar which isnt the case.

    You do content to upgrade your gear so you can do the same content at a higher level, right?

    To me that's a gear treadmill even though it's a more elegant one.

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 26, 2018

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Agony mechanic is a remnant of way back when it got added in late 2013.

    So to explain, back then the basic idea was:

    • fractal bosses would do agony damage with some of their attacks (similar to now but there was no guaranteed agony check, all attack were dodge-able)
    • agony resistance was meant as a possibility to make up for bad play but if a player was good enough, he could complete fractals with less than required agony resistance (even as low as 0, some people in my group back then ran with 0 AR on fractal 40+)
    • as a matter of fact, back then only rings and backpiece were available and the maximum AR per slot was 5 (so a total of 30 AR were possible with 2 infused rings and an infused backpiece) which required a player to dodge certain boss attacks or instant die (only bosses back then were Swamp, Dredge and Jade Maw and mostly different version from today) (no ascended armor or weapons too)
    • agony resistance was never intended as a hard gate on initial release but rather as an added possible defense (and you could not get agony resistance AND stats back the though most people opted for the AR)
    • fractal rank was per character and the first few months only the exact fractal level you were on would increase your rank, making gear less significant since almost no one played multiple characters up. You picked a character and stuck with it, period.

    This all changed with multiple revamps to the fractal and agony system to what we have now, a hard gate with breakpoints making ascended armor required for T4.

    At the same time a ton of quality of life upgrades more than make up for this annoyance while also preventing to easy gearing up of characters

    TL;DR: agony resistance changed over the years and now fulfills a different role to what its original purpose was.

    Fractals got introduced November 2012.

    Agony resistance was intended as a hard gate.The last fractal was always Solid Ocean at even fractal levels (undodgeable agony at last island). You could circumvent it with rezz orbs and exploits but this was never intended.

    Now it is just a form of progression through fractals.

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    Agony resistance is ArenaNet's version of the gear treadmill. Now before people start crying, I think this is a good idea. It's a form of progression and it makes sure as someone said that new people first get to practice at lower levels first. As much as people didn't want gear progression at level 80, any MMO does need something like it. I think this is a pretty good version.

    Its not a gear treadmill, its progression past lvl 80. Gear treadmill would imply that u have to keep up to date and refarm ar which isnt the case.

    You do content to upgrade your gear so you can do the same content at a higher level, right?

    To me that's a gear treadmill even though it's a more elegant one.

    No it's not a gear threadmill. Gear treadmills get a higher values every patch so you are never really finished. It is just progression as you need to reach 150 agony resistance and you are done.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    Agony resistance is ArenaNet's version of the gear treadmill. Now before people start crying, I think this is a good idea. It's a form of progression and it makes sure as someone said that new people first get to practice at lower levels first. As much as people didn't want gear progression at level 80, any MMO does need something like it. I think this is a pretty good version.

    Its not a gear treadmill, its progression past lvl 80. Gear treadmill would imply that u have to keep up to date and refarm ar which isnt the case.

    That was the original idea. Fractals were supposed to be infinite in levels, and Anet planned on adding new slots for ar every now and then in order to both slow down people from progressing through the levels, and make them regear every now and then. There were also supposed to be better infusion tiers originally (first ones were blue, greens with +11 to stats and AR were datamined at one point in a beta client).
    So yeah, very much Anet's idea of gear treadmill. Although they called that "item progression" then.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Agony mechanic is a remnant of way back when it got added in late 2013.

    So to explain, back then the basic idea was:

    • fractal bosses would do agony damage with some of their attacks (similar to now but there was no guaranteed agony check, all attack were dodge-able)
    • agony resistance was meant as a possibility to make up for bad play but if a player was good enough, he could complete fractals with less than required agony resistance (even as low as 0, some people in my group back then ran with 0 AR on fractal 40+)
    • as a matter of fact, back then only rings and backpiece were available and the maximum AR per slot was 5 (so a total of 30 AR were possible with 2 infused rings and an infused backpiece) which required a player to dodge certain boss attacks or instant die (only bosses back then were Swamp, Dredge and Jade Maw and mostly different version from today) (no ascended armor or weapons too)
    • agony resistance was never intended as a hard gate on initial release but rather as an added possible defense (and you could not get agony resistance AND stats back the though most people opted for the AR)
    • fractal rank was per character and the first few months only the exact fractal level you were on would increase your rank, making gear less significant since almost no one played multiple characters up. You picked a character and stuck with it, period.

    This all changed with multiple revamps to the fractal and agony system to what we have now, a hard gate with breakpoints making ascended armor required for T4.

    At the same time a ton of quality of life upgrades more than make up for this annoyance while also preventing to easy gearing up of characters

    TL;DR: agony resistance changed over the years and now fulfills a different role to what its original purpose was.

    Fractals got introduced November 2012.

    My bad, I missplaced the dates from introduction and the first major revamp. You are correct, the initial release was 2012, 3 months after launch.

    @Miellyn.6847 said:
    Agony resistance was intended as a hard gate.The last fractal was always Solid Ocean at even fractal levels (undodgeable agony at last island). You could circumvent it with rezz orbs and exploits but this was never intended.

    Now it is just a form of progression through fractals.

    I don't agree. Solid Ocean was not the only agony boss especially once revamped 1 year later. Mossman, Bloomhunger, the ice elemental and dredge boss in the underground facility applied agony too. All of these were avoidable and if played well completely dodge-able allowing skilled players to never get hit by agony.

    Agony was never a hard gate for the first 2 iterations of the content. I had people with 0 agony resistance perfect dodge the fights and not die to instant death mechanics. Solid Ocean did not have an agony check on entry too, that all came later.

    That is not getting into exploits and other creative ways around getting the intended maximum progression initially (necormancer, ranger pet ressurection, ressurection orbs, etc.). Agony was definitely not designed as a gate mechanic initially even if possibly intended to be one.

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    Agony resistance is ArenaNet's version of the gear treadmill. Now before people start crying, I think this is a good idea. It's a form of progression and it makes sure as someone said that new people first get to practice at lower levels first. As much as people didn't want gear progression at level 80, any MMO does need something like it. I think this is a pretty good version.

    Its not a gear treadmill, its progression past lvl 80. Gear treadmill would imply that u have to keep up to date and refarm ar which isnt the case.

    You do content to upgrade your gear so you can do the same content at a higher level, right?

    To me that's a gear treadmill even though it's a more elegant one.

    No it's not a gear treadmill. Gear treadmills get a higher values every patch so you are never really finished. It is just progression as you need to reach 150 agony resistance and you are done.

    Agreed, it's not a gear treadmill since there is no statistical advantage offered by agony. Also all gear available at higher tiers (fractals) is available through multiple other methods.

    The fact that T4 fractals and above make acquisition of more equal statistical gear easier, is more en par with doing raids or difficult dungeons in other games without receiving better gear.

    The agony mechanic is a multiplier and scaling mechanic for acquisition of in-game wealth (since running T4 fractals daily will yield significant return gold and wealth wise), that alone (since it does not allow unique game play advantages) is not a gear treadmill.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 26, 2018

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:
    Agony resistance was intended as a hard gate.The last fractal was always Solid Ocean at even fractal levels (undodgeable agony at last island). You could circumvent it with rezz orbs and exploits but this was never intended.

    Now it is just a form of progression through fractals.

    I don't agree. Solid Ocean was not the only agony boss especially once revamped 1 year later. Mossman, Bloomhunger, the ice elemental and dredge boss in the underground facility applied agony too. All of these were avoidable and if played well completely dodge-able allowing skilled players to never get hit by agony.

    Miellyn's not talking about attack-applied agony, but about the initial unblockable and undodgable pulse after entering the Jade Maw platform. Yes, you could circumvent it with using ress orbs, guardian tome heal spam and ranger search and rescue, but those ways were obviously never intended (and all have been in one way or another fixed by anet at some point, specifically to remove those ways of circumventing original design)

    Agony was never a hard gate for the first 2 iterations of the content. I had people with 0 agony resistance perfect dodge the fights and not die to instant death mechanics. Solid Ocean did not have an agony check on entry too, that all came later.

    All the changes Anet did to stop people from crossing Agony thresholds show clearly they did not, in fact, ever expected players to bypass it. It was supposed to be a hard check.

    That is not getting into exploits and other creative ways around getting the intended maximum progression initially (necormancer, ranger pet ressurection, ressurection orbs, etc.). Agony was definitely not designed as a gate mechanic initially even if possibly intended to be one.

    Oh, it was designed as a gate mechanic, it's just that design had some large holes initially that some players used to circumvent the restrictions. All those holes were at some point patched (although subsequent fractal reworks introduced new ones, by allowing players to skip the former end boss fractals, and thus again avoid the impassable agony gating mechanics. This however still required at least some players to be able to cross them). And of course nowadays they just no longer seem to really care about the issue anymore.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Henry.5713 said:
    Ascended gear was introduced to add more depth to gearing in this game. It hardly turned anything into WoW. There was literally nothing to do in PvE after we had acquired our first exotic sets in pretty much no time. There needs to be something people can work towards, especially right after the release, or they'll simply move on to the next game. They added new stats, infusions and other things but nothing else has been done in over six years as they seem to deem ascended gear to be quite sufficient as far as gearing and gear depth is concerned. Agony may have been a mistake, ascended gear certainly was not.

    Ascended gear itself wasn't a mistake, the adding it after release was tho. As it drove quite a few people away.

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Agreed, it's not a gear treadmill since there is no statistical advantage offered by agony. Also all gear available at higher tiers (fractals) is available through multiple other methods.

    So damage reduction is not a statistical advantage to you, is it? Is that why there is an agony STAT on your character screen?

    The whole point of a gear treadmill, and that's why it's called a treadmill, is that you need to keep getting gear that enables you to beat more difficult content. That is exactly what agony resistance is doing.

    It certainly isn't the same approach to the traditional gear treadmills and certainly less involved but it certainly works on the exact same principle of improving stats to be able to beat harder content. You can't really deny that the function of AR is exactly that.

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • @Gehenna.3625 said:
    The whole point of a gear treadmill, and that's why it's called a treadmill, is that you need to keep getting gear that enables you to beat more difficult content. That is exactly what agony resistance is doing.

    No, it's exactly the opposite of what agony resistance does. Treadmills are constant; AR is a one-time requirement.

    It certainly isn't the same approach to the traditional gear treadmills and certainly less involved but it certainly works on the exact same principle of improving stats to be able to beat harder content. You can't really deny that the function of AR is exactly that.

    No one is denying that AR is required for fractals. The point is that it's not something you have to do with each expansion.

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • @zealex.9410 said:

    @IllegalChocolate.6938 said:
    The reason why agony was introduced was that people who just wanted to play WoW without paying a sub fee wanted to turn GW2 into WoW with no sub fee which a vast majority of people didn't want, they complained alot on the forums and such about the lack of gear progression, Anet mistook it as a majority opinion and introduced ascended stat items which received massive blowback after that happened.

    I remembered this like it was yesterday. One of the worst additions to the game that completely destroyed a lot of the balance in the game, especially since abilities back in the day were balanced around Rare gear.

    If ppl wanted gw2 to turn to wow the raids would bring a new gear tier each time.

    This was before they had the system in place to do 10 man instanced content. Had anet not received the massive blowback when ascended items were introduced to basically be another gear tier, raids would be doing this.

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    The whole point of a gear treadmill, and that's why it's called a treadmill, is that you need to keep getting gear that enables you to beat more difficult content. That is exactly what agony resistance is doing.

    No, it's exactly the opposite of what agony resistance does. Treadmills are constant; AR is a one-time requirement.

    Well treadmills by themselves are an exaggeration. Most of those games that do have level cap raises do so every few years. So that really doesn't qualify as a treadmill to begin with. Now I will say that I have lost track of what they do with AR nowadays, so I guess the endless levels idea is no more and so everything's pretty fixed then I guess.

    It certainly isn't the same approach to the traditional gear treadmills and certainly less involved but it certainly works on the exact same principle of improving stats to be able to beat harder content. You can't really deny that the function of AR is exactly that.

    No to me it sounded like the same principles that drove AR. It certainly wasn't the same approach in how they did that. That's why I call it a more elegant variation, but then I thought the idea was to add more AR and more difficult fractal tiers.

    No one is denying that AR is required for fractals. The point is that it's not something you have to do with each expansion.

    I thought there were tiers within fractals and that you need higher and higher AR for higher tiers. That sounds exactly like what I experienced in other games...on the principle, not the execution. It's just one stat you upgrade.

    But hey, I might be wrong here, it just sounded to me like you need higher AR equipped on your gear for higher tiers of fractals. That part at least sounds a lot like the principle behind gear treadmills. But if they aren't adding higher difficulties to fractals then indeed it's not a treadmill even if it was intended to be initially.

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • Grogba.6204Grogba.6204 Member ✭✭✭

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    I thought there were tiers within fractals and that you need higher and higher AR for higher tiers. That sounds exactly like what I experienced in other games...on the principle, not the execution. It's just one stat you upgrade.

    You need 150+ AR in total for maximum mitigration against agony ticks in fractal level 100 (which is currently Shattered Observatory T4). Truth is you can do it with lower AR, too: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Agony

    You will lose more health per tick. My earlier statement about missing AR instantly killing you is, according to that table, not entirely correct but a difference of 40 AR means you take 48% of your max HP per tick which will kill you quickly.

    Much in the same way, you need a minimum of AR for every fractal lower than level 100.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fractals_of_the_Mists#Fractal_levels

    The minimum numbers are:
    17 AR for all of T1
    61 AR for all of T2
    106 AR for all of T3
    150 AR for all of T4

    The biggest benefit of AR (besides reducing Agony damage) is in conjunction with the fractal mastery
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Central_Tyria_mastery_tracks#Fractal_Attunement

    Fractal potions will now grant you 30% of your AR per stack in bonus stats.

    with 150 AR that means 45 stat points per stack. Which in return translates to:
    225 bonus Precision
    225 bonus Concentration
    225 bonus Toughness

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    The whole point of a gear treadmill, and that's why it's called a treadmill, is that you need to keep getting gear that enables you to beat more difficult content. That is exactly what agony resistance is doing.

    No, it's exactly the opposite of what agony resistance does. Treadmills are constant; AR is a one-time requirement.

    That is now, when Agony's role is pretty much depreciated. It wasn't so when it was introduced however, and when there was no such thing as fractal level cap.
    So, yes, it's not a gear treadmill now, but it was definitely originally designed for exactly that role.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    The whole point of a gear treadmill, and that's why it's called a treadmill, is that you need to keep getting gear that enables you to beat more difficult content. That is exactly what agony resistance is doing.

    No, it's exactly the opposite of what agony resistance does. Treadmills are constant; AR is a one-time requirement.

    It certainly isn't the same approach to the traditional gear treadmills and certainly less involved but it certainly works on the exact same principle of improving stats to be able to beat harder content. You can't really deny that the function of AR is exactly that.

    No one is denying that AR is required for fractals. The point is that it's not something you have to do with each expansion.

    This.

    The term treadmill is quite visual and explanatory as to why and how such systems are designed, aka they keep spinning.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    The whole point of a gear treadmill, and that's why it's called a treadmill, is that you need to keep getting gear that enables you to beat more difficult content. That is exactly what agony resistance is doing.

    No, it's exactly the opposite of what agony resistance does. Treadmills are constant; AR is a one-time requirement.

    That is now, when Agony's role is pretty much depreciated. It wasn't so when it was introduced however, and when there was no such thing as fractal level cap.
    So, yes, it's not a gear treadmill now, but it was definitely originally designed for exactly that role.

    A 1 time shortly after release item cap increase is hardly a treadmill, especially the way ascended was introduced over 2 years giving people a ton of time to prepare.

    But it did come as quite a shock back then.

    Me personally I was not thrilled when ascended was introduced, but was willing to give the game a try simply for 2 reasons:

    • exotic even at launch was way to easy to come by, this just multiplied over the years. I remember when having alternate character in full rare gear was already decent.
    • give Arenanet the possibility to stick to they word, so far 6 years in they have been true to it (mostly, some people might argue with new stat combinations and 4 stat combinations being a gear increase. The saving grace here is how these stat advantages are introduced and the introduction of the ascended stat changing)
  • dusanyu.4057dusanyu.4057 Member ✭✭✭

    I am personally not a fan. I don't enjoy Gear grinding i don't find it fun so i avoid it. does that mean I dont take the game seroisly? I play to win in any content i enter but i just don't enjoy the forced grind and luck based Acquisition of gear.

  • My biggest complaint is just how annoying it is to "prepare" for Fractals. What I mean by that is I go play WvW and use WvW infusions for the stat increase (you might find the difference trivial, but personally I care about every tiny stat increase and like to min/max), and then if I want to play Fractals I have to remove every single infusion and replace them with my +9 agony infusions. A lot of the time I just can't be bothered because it's an extra layer of messing about so I forego Fractals.

    The solution for me, obviously, are Agony Stat infusions, but they're just too expensive for what they are. My options are inconvenience or break the bank.

  • Hesacon.8735Hesacon.8735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:
    My biggest complaint is just how annoying it is to "prepare" for Fractals. What I mean by that is I go play WvW and use WvW infusions for the stat increase (you might find the difference trivial, but personally I care about every tiny stat increase and like to min/max), and then if I want to play Fractals I have to remove every single infusion and replace them with my +9 agony infusions. A lot of the time I just can't be bothered because it's an extra layer of messing about so I forego Fractals.

    The solution for me, obviously, are Agony Stat infusions, but they're just too expensive for what they are. My options are inconvenience or break the bank.

    WvW infusions are sort of meh. +1% damage to guards is helpful, but most people are playing the game to fight other players. I just use my AR infusions in wvw.

    That being said, I did dump a depressing amount of money into the +5 stat AR infusions. Others have pointed out that this is a somewhat elegant solution to gear treadmills (stupid money for minor stats), but others have also pointed out that at a certain point there is no longer a use for gold. So it works out as something to strive for without being a barrier in itself.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2018

    @FizCap.6573 said:

    @Hesacon.8735 said:
    Agony is what makes fractals superior to raids. It's a reasonable barrier to entry that prevents people who aren't going to take it seriously from ruining your run.

    At least, in theory.

    Doesn't work in theory, there was times where I would have 80 agony resistance and I would be joining fractals that required 120-130 agony resistance and I succeeded.

    Great ... sounds like your team carried you. They must have been excited to do so. This is clearly an exceptional case.

    The bottom line is that Anet allows you to pay to skip the line if you like. You get choice ... you pay and buy infusions ... or you play and earn them as you get through the frac levels.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Corvus.2831Corvus.2831 Member ✭✭
    edited February 9, 2020

    @kasoki.5180 said:
    Its a filtering system against new players. Personally I don't want someone who just finished leveling their story suddenly going into T4.

    Sure, but finishing leveling recently isnt defining the player as "without skills" and so AR should be removed. It may be an alt of someone more experienced than you, it should also be not apparent to you in any way how many fractals someone did. The game cant be insular and new players need access so they can become better.

    The way to make sure to play with good people used to be 1) find them by trial and error 2) join their guild or add them as friend.
    And thats how it should be. All games that have any sort of point check system that people use to exclude fresh players is bad for the game. Guilds did that fine without points. That emphasis on grouping for content through social groups is what makes mmorpgs social and Guildwars, GUILDwars...

    If you are going to be happy to turn your game into a "how efficiently can i grind for more and more useless loot" instead of "what kind of challenge can i attempt with my friends" you are going to maybe progress faster for a while but eventually the burnout comes, and it comes much faster for people with speedgrinders mindset. In the end the turtle wins the race and has more fun doing it...

  • maxwelgm.4315maxwelgm.4315 Member ✭✭✭

    A reasonable number of players advocated for some kind of progression during the time of dungeons due to cosmetics not being enough at the time and the sense that they wanted to actually cover landmarks instead of being at the top stats right from the get-go.

    Ascended gear was the compromise with its one extra tier of gear with marginally increased stats in relation to exotics, and also introduced the infusion slots. The first iteration of fractals was: go inside, get to a random fractal, complete it to go up a level in the fractal scaling, rinse and repeat until you hit the point where everything 1 shots you. Agony served the role of a hard cap at this time - as you were limited as to how much resistance you could make and eventually agony would wreck you regardless. So there's that, everything that came after was just an adaptation of a simple hard cap to what would be an endless spiraling progression of mini-dungeons before it became tiered and such.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2020

    This needed necroing why? @Corvus.2831

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2020

    My only gripe about AR is you don't need it in the open world.

    The only time you see the Agony debuff at all is on the Awakened during the portal events, and I think the game would've been better if it was more integrated since I think its actually an excellent mechanic and would've changed how some fights are approached by players, instead we have lots of similar mechanics like Nightmare Toxin and Frostbite that have no standardisation or defense.

    Imagine if we had Agony at world bosses, during high-level metas or in elite dungeons..

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    This needed necroing why? @Corvus.2831

    Shrug, threads get necro'ed from time to time, I don't mind as long as they aren't something useless.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay (formerly Jade Quarry) | Mains Mariyuuna/Tempest & Terakura/Spellbreaker | ♀♥♀

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2020

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    My only gripe about AR is you don't need it in the open world.

    The only time you see the Agony debuff at all is on the Awakened during the portal events, and I think the game would've been better if it was more integrated since I think its actually an excellent mechanic and would've changed how some fights are approached by players, instead we have lots of similar mechanics like Nightmare Toxin and Frostbite that have no standardisation or defense.

    Imagine if we had Agony at world bosses, during high-level metas or in elite dungeons..

    We did imagine it then (in fact, this was a plan - Anet did mean to follow up with other uses for agony and other similar effects in other parts of the game). The general player response however, both to this (or to anything that would make ascended gear more needed in other parts of the game) was, for the most part, vastly negative. In the end, that idea got dropped.

    Seriously, if we had agony mechanic at world bosses, it would mean people would be required to run ascended gear there. No, thank you.

    Agony was only a cheap and unimaginative way of extending the content then, and it would be a cheap and unimaginative way of extending the content now. Nothing more.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭

    as agony may be problematic while getting into t4s, overall i think its rly nice tool to min max ur stats

    make prepardness baseline plz

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Agony is a self-contained grind. You only do it if you want to grind fractals as it offers no benefits elsewhere. You can still experience the content @ t1. Also fractals will drop all the infusions and rings that are needed just by playing.

    If you're not willing to commit to fractals, there's no real reason to worry about it.