Renegade is NOT OP and NOT needs nerfs and reworks, thread to dumb people ;)

Explanation-how bad(terrible) renegade(sucks) is:

There are 3 types of damage in game(power,condi dmg,life siphon). Life steal dmg can't be reduced by armor and physical dmg reductions. However renegade shortbow 1 do (2x) tiks of dmg per shot(1. arrow, 2. explosion of arrow on impact). As you all know, renegade ultimate is "Soulcleave's Summit" and it gives you ability to do life steal dmg and healing without cooldown on every tik of dmg you do. So if you add quickness to shortbow(brutality trait-devastation,agility sigil) with concentration you get very long quickness every 9 sec or like 6-7 sec of quickness which makes your shattershot shortbow 1 skill so fast. It has 0,5 sec cd and with quickness that is 0,25 sec per shot that carry 2 procs of life steal with it....so you actually do ~800 true dmg and 800-1300+ healing per shot and you can do 4 shots per sec and 8 procs of ultimate life steal. And that is not all.... rune of the mad king spawns "Hunter's call" ranger spell that does 16x tiks of dmg when you cast you ultimate, also icerazor's ire has 20x tiks of dmg and there is 15x F3 bombardement etc which makes these 3 up to 51x tiks procs of life steal dmg from ultimate without spamming 1111 shortbow-shattershot. So as i said above, life siphon/steal dmg has very bad power scaling and very high base dmg stats which means you don't rly need offensive stats. So i used minstrel gear(toughness,healing power,vitality,concentration) and i bursted ppl down so fast many times in wvw/pvp. Healing is insane, best sustain in game i can say and if you are good in maths 51x 400 true dmg per proc on ultimate is around ~20 000 true dmg for very very short time without 111 spaming that do 800 true dmg per shot or around 2400-3200 true dmg per sec by just spamming arrows. I use 2 shortbows in both weapon slots and reason why is this so good-you also don't use energy on 1 skill and it also do most dmg and healing.

This is build(eeeey i will play herald instead) and it looks so bad(terrible) but if you read this text you will understand the point and how shity(worst,yup) it can be.http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vlAQJAVlnXMvNSum7JRZzVlst5rSY3cWJ4besklNl6/HLyjsNAOgGg9LKj2A-j1RHQBiTXAAuEAyT9nIqEsM7PEunAgAV+BA-w

Build that has bad synergy with all minor and major traits, retaliation/might abuse and shortbow 1-shattershot also scales bad with power means you can't play power build with renegade shortbow, you also dodge(dodge games,don't troll your teammates) a lot...http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vlAQJAVlnXMvNSum7JRZzVlst5rSY3cWJ4besklZl6/BrwLkdGqheQNAOgFA-j1RGQBmRXw52foeq/ARlgG4JAMQlfA4SAAA-w

Suggestions what can Arenanet improve/change to make Renegade fair to play in pvp/wvw:

• keep summons killable but unaffected to cc/interupts and reason: because if some1 interupt my summon, summons still use energy and do nothing( knocked back summons change position and i also lose their effects)

• adjust bleeding scale and bleeding stacks on shortbow weapons and reason: even with 25 might and 1000-1500 condition dmg as base stat and with 100% bleeding duration with trait "Heartpiercer" that gives 25% more bleeding dmg, it still do very little like 1000-1300 bleeding on auto attacks per sec( with maximum buffs) and similar numbers with bloodbane's paths which means so bad compared to power scaling and life siphon heavy dmg. Merge Renegade traits "Blood fury" and "heartpiercer" bleeding buffs to duration 25% and 25% its dmg and make new trait that gives shortbow pierce and adds 1 bleeding stack on every shortbow skill.

• rework "Sevenshot" and reason: it is so bad and hard to hit in pvp/wvw even with cc(hard to hit all 7 shots) and i have idea how to rework that to be a better spell. Now arrows fire in same point but make arrows spread in like 30deegres angle so players can hit something sometimes and if player want to hit all 7 arrows they should move in melee range.

• As i read on wiki and tested in game, "Razorclaw's Rage" affect summons too but just "icrazor's ire" and "Darkrazor's Daring" so would be good if it can affect bleeding stack also on healing skill and ultimate so rework it and how: add 1 dmg on healing skill every sec and 1 dmg on ultimate every sec so bleeding can be applied because all summons attack target and do damage.

• rework "citadel bombardement" and reason why: all missles do not hit and it cost so much energy, F2 and F4 are supportive abilites so make F3- citadel bombadment also supportive(F2 gives might to allies, F3 can give aoe retaliation and that boon can affect summons too so if enemy gonna kill summons,so they can take more damage from retaliation, F4 gives alacrity which is fine like F2.

• nerf soulcleave's summit life steal damage and reason why- read above my discovery

• buff projectile speed of schorchrazor(shortbow 5)

this is legit first time I see someone using "renegade" and "OP" in same sentence....

ok i dont know if this is a joke thread or sarcasm, but if it is a joke, you have outmatched mad kind thorn sir.

@Lucas.3718 said:ok i dont know if this is a joke thread or sarcasm, but if it is a joke, you have outmatched mad kind thorn sir.

Yup yup :)

Tested in what kind of gameplay? PVE open world?

@BlazeQ.1095 said:Tested in what kind of gameplay? PVE open world?

Yup yup :)

@Svez Poizon XD.5268 said:

@BlazeQ.1095 said:Tested in what kind of gameplay? PVE open world?

Not that I don't trust you, I have just lost a lot of faith in Rev in WvW. Granted I am a bad player.

Double shortbowArmor well above a threshold where you'll hit DRNo formidable power so damage is going to be garbageLifesteal only occurs on attacks and not condition ticksJust to name a few issues here.

You'll burn through energy real quick with any upkeep skill so maybe outside of sustaining damage for a few seconds, you're going to get massively exposed to any focus from any class.

Unless you can show video of you puling this off in pvp and in wvw, this is kind of kaka on paper.

I've used renegade in pvp and have found the summons really strong in there. The only problem is being able to escape being focused and relying on the enemy to stay within range of these spirits. Its the same thing with elementalists. They can't really do anything on their own and will die in seconds of being focused, but if they aren't targeted they can dish out some decent damage but it is more reliant on the enemies innability to fight. Another problem with it is the ramp up time. Pvp and WvW both require bursty builds to do well. Dps is great and all, but multiple hammers from a couple heralds is more than enough to take some people down while using a lot less energy and having 1200 range, and power herald just has better outplay and carry potential than condi renegade in pvp.

Awesome job though making renegade work for you, I'm not trying to be mean just want to point out why renegade is not op. I would def be open to a rework though, but judging by the herald rework it will most likely just turn out exactly the same with a redistribution of dps among skills and traits.

@phokus.8934 said:Double shortbowArmor well above a threshold where you'll hit DRNo formidable power so damage is going to be garbageLifesteal only occurs on attacks and not condition ticksJust to name a few issues here.

You'll burn through energy real quick with any upkeep skill so maybe outside of sustaining damage for a few seconds, you're going to get massively exposed to any focus from any class.

Unless you can show video of you puling this off in pvp and in wvw, this is kind of kaka on paper.

Yup yup :)

@phokus.8934 said:Unless you can show video of you puling this off in pvp and in wvw, this is kind of kaka on paper.er..

@Svez Poizon XD.5268 said:This is build and it looks so bad but if you read this text you will understand the point and how overpowered it can be.

The OP kinda already said that.

......................

im sorry, its not that i dont believe you, its just that i cant believe you for these reasons:spirits. overall its a nice idea, and n theory could prove strong, like, stuning your enemy for like (i think it was) 8 sec with about 50%-75% (with self-alacrity) uptime, or having a stupidly strong life siphon buff, or keeping 25 vuln up on one enemy. that allone sounds stupidly overpowered, but the reality looks kinda... depressing.-they can be killed on the fly-their effect can be ccd and then they are pretty much useless (in some cases maybe a disadvantageous, for like reaper shouts if they count as such)-you litteraly can run out of their effect area and fight the renegade in an old wild western style of combat. a long ranged 1v1 (and warriors,who dont have good ranged weapons just get in there like a dog on a bone)

Shortbow. this weapon is just... no. i dont know what a-net thought with making this weapon but imo, its (especially in pvp/wvw) like a knife in a gunfight. dont get me wrong, its a good thing a-net gave us a new ranged weapon, but not this kind of weapon. its weird to use and the skillshot makes it worse-the autoattack is... ok(ish). nothing special-the second skill is ... weird. have you noticed if your target moves, the shots are 50% more likely to miss.-dont get me started on sevenshot. this skill is either an opener for all shots (or most) to hit and do damage, on a small hitbox. or you are lucky and your target is big. otherwise what in the name of the allmighty duck is this skill supposed to be ?-skill 4 is nice, nothing to say there :)-skill 5... strong in theory but in execution kinda meh. the reason is that the projectile itself is so slow... like if you can pay attention you just need any defensive action like dodging/block or anything.

feel free to correct me, but thats how it feels for me.

Yeah renegade is pretty overpowered

In the labyrinth.

@Svez Poizon XD.5268 said:

@phokus.8934 said:Double shortbowArmor well above a threshold where you'll hit DRNo formidable power so damage is going to be garbageLifesteal only occurs on attacks and not condition ticksJust to name a few issues here.

You'll burn through energy real quick with any upkeep skill so maybe outside of sustaining damage for a few seconds, you're going to get massively exposed to any focus from any class.

Unless you can show video of you puling this off in pvp and in wvw, this is kind of kaka on paper.

You have zero sustain when you're out of energy and that'll happen really quick.

No amount of theorycrafting here can change anyone's mind that this build is garbage in pvp/wvw. You're looking at Renegade (and this setup) in a vacuum but when put to the test against players who fight back, it's not good at all. So like I said, show actual footage of this spec because otherwise, it's grade A bunk.

I agree with the others, I would need to see this in action before I considered it OP. Lots of things look OP on paper but when put up against real people turns out to be woefully underpowered. I have a feeling if Renegade where this OP we'd of seen it by now.

I disregarded this thread as soon as I read the title. Renegade is utter garbage in PvP. You and your summons will be CCd and/or vaporized before you can mount any kind of pressure. You might be able to win against bronze or silver players with your double shortbow build, because ANYTHING works at that level of play.

Hmm, so full minstrel gear is how you reach the shortbow's full potential. I've been a fool using grieving this whole time.

I'm a bit bored and lazy today.. But as a Rev' main, I have to try it a bit, since it sound interesting and an unusual way to play it !

@"Svez Poizon XD.5268" said:Explanation-how strong renegade is:

(...). It has 0,5 sec cd and with quickness that is 0,25 sec per shot

Well... No. quickness raise attack speed by 50% not 100% so it should be something like 0.375 second per shot.

... that carry 2 procs of life steal with it....

Like someone said Life siphon only proc on physical damage. So it's only proc on the explosive part of the arrow.

so you actually do ~800 true dmg and 800-1300+ healing per shot and you can do 4 shots per sec and 8 procs of ultimate life steal.

On a single target it's 62 damage at best, it may heal up to 320 health point per arrow. You'll land 5 arrows in 2 seconds (8 in 3 seconds, 10 in 4 seconds, 13 in 5 seconds, 16 in 6 seconds, 18 in 7 seconds... etc.) not 4 per seconds. If you spend your time auto attacking on 5 mindless target you might achieve an average personnal sustain of almost 900 health per second which is relatively average.

And that is not all.... rune of the mad king spawns "Hunter's call" ranger spell that does 16x tiks of dmg when you cast you ultimate, also icerazor's ire has 20x tiks of dmg and there is 15x F3 bombardement etc which makes these 3 up to 51x tiks procs of life steal dmg from ultimate without spamming 1111 shortbow-shattershot. So as i said above, life siphon/steal dmg has very bad power scaling and very high base dmg stats which means you don't rly need offensive stats. So i used minstrel gear(toughness,healing power,vitality,concentration) and i bursted ppl down so fast many times in wvw/pvp. Healing is insane, best sustain in game i can say and if you are good in maths 51x 400 true dmg per proc on ultimate is around ~20 000 true dmg for very very short time without 111 spaming that do 800 true dmg per shot or around 2400-3200 true dmg per sec by just spamming arrows. I use 2 shortbows in both weapon slots and reason why is this so good-you also don't use energy on 1 skill and it also do most dmg and healing.

You amusingly count life siphon damage as if a single target was hit by them. Let's be realist, your 20 000 true damage "burst", realistically, on a single target barely amount to 2700 true damage at best which is very far from being life threatening. Especially since true damage don't crit which make those damage a joke.

I won't continue to comment but know that necromancers have a lot of life siphon effects and can potentially land more of them than the renegade since release. Sadly life siphon effects are far from being as effective than what you think or else every necromancers would always play "vampire" build which are, in reality, below average builds.

Like others never imagined seeing the words "Renegade is OP (In PvP/WvW)", and this is coming from somebody who roams in WvW as a Renegade. (I don't use Kalla however, because outside of memes there is no reason to take Kalla.)

It's not that Renegade has weak damage, far from it. The problem is that no competent player is going to stand there and let you freecast Icerazor/Darkrazor on top of them while standing inside Soulcleave. At most you can use it for some short duration area denial vs people unfamiliar with Renegade. I also highly doubt this supposed high damage by spamming shortbow 1, that looks like faulty math.

I am happy however that OP is having fun playing as Renegade, kudos!

They could fix it in the following way.

• Make spirits passive, they follow you as summons but perhaps use different variants of skills from the classes they represent. (Messmer has it for their damn clones, why not let us have some of that love too?)
• Make spirits capable of much more, the utilities could be commands or "Shouts" Which make them use their "Special" abilities while providing movement for the rev. For exampe Icerazor could make him home in and fire his projectiles on a single target of the revs choice. But it also places the rev behind the enemy, and knocks them down if they dont dodge this offers the rev some defensive choices while also giving it the feel of a guerrilla warfare sort of fighter... which essentially is what the renegade was shipped as.
• Make the shortbow switch in its nature just like trident, hell make ALL the rev weapons do that so that they are in line with trident. I feel the trident is the best part of rev, a weapon that swaps its skills damage types based on YOUR choice? That is something that would fix the rev real quick, and make each revenant feel different as well be capable of using the weapons they prefer the most. (Really give us some spice of life, and help with the fact that our weapon choices right now are fairly limited.)
• Remove citadel bombardment for something else that fits the scope, perhaps something to do with kalla herself. Example: Warcry, Shout out an inspiring command giving allies boons. (think "Save yourselves" on the guardian)

So in summery~

1. Fix the utilities to make them better fit the theme as well make them viable for pvp, and wvw as well make them a proper spirit summoning spec. They could also make the spirits change based on your legend, shiro would get shiro-kin and their f-1 through 5 would be commands that allow them to do stuff. Make you a "Commander" of a guerrilla force, not just a well/mark bot. It would add a level of dynamic and intuitive play, rewarding good players who know their class while also being a bit more accessible for the casual audience to the point we might see them surge into other game modes they can't currently participate in.(leave the heal for Renegade alone, perhaps just add some beneficial effects to it? Reflect damage? something cool I don't honestly know.)
2. Make the shortbow(As well all the rev weapons change based on legend/stat combo to be beneficial whatever and however you want to play.) This would be huge for both revenant and renegade as a whole, offering new ways to play. Pigeon-holing a jack-of-all-trades class who is master of none is not very intuitive in design, Now letting their weapon change as they do? That is how ya do it mon. They could make the condi-variant of the swords provide bleeds, and the others could follow suite offering renegade both a power and a condi aspect to their gameplay.(as well more options for revenants as a whole.)
3. Perhaps a minor rework to make there be more synergy between revenants, their eliet specs and other aspects of their class and design. A new legend for invocation who is a neutral legend or perhaps neutral rev skills tied to it could be good. Would offer options that are otherwise un-accessible to the revenant as it is now; It needs a bit of love but is by no means a bad design or class.

In conclusion I'd like to say revenant is my favorite class as it is completely unique and it's feel pulls from shamanism(Communing with spirits, much like the ritualist) and various other forms of spiritual warriors. A being who has traversed the mists and obtained "Otherworldly" power to use at the defense of what they desire or hold dear, a being capable of channeling evil for good? I feel like the theme of the revenant is strong, the legends are not so much and this should of been treated like a hero class from wow. It should of primarily focused on pulling villains we have faced in the previous entries and from the lore, using their dark or otherwise evil magic in the service of good. A dark anti-hero based class that could stand beside the Necromancer as a darker themed "Player Character" I don't mind so much that we have alot of heros like ventari, jalis, Kall. I just mind that they are not as interesting as those we have faced and their opinions on specific events, I wouldn't mind if they had the spirits say during events their feelings on the matter. For example as you're playing mallyx and you go head to head with balthazar he could comment about how ironic it is that the righteous god of war has fallen similar to how abbadon did yet balthazar condemned his brother for doing the very same actions he himself now commit.

Having played WoW through legion and playing a warlock/shadow priest, the Idea of a weapon or outside source speaking to you as you do your thing is kind of cool and adds a level of immersion that I never knew I wanted. Imagine if shrio talked to you during the story much like how rytlock said the spirits in his head were speaking to him, during HoT? This paired with a more polished design and the addition of weapons changing their effects based on the legend would be very nice indeed, becasuse honestly the design of their attacks, weapons and abilities are freaking cool. They have flair, and uniqueness that suites a game trying to be different then others of the genre and it's a shame the dervish, paragon and ritualist never made it into this game as they too were pretty unique takes on common fantasy tropes. They have a good foundation here they just need to build upon it, IF I had the experience and knew what I was doing (coding) Id apply to be the rev lead designer and work on these changes myself. Perhaps that is what we need; Someone who loves Guild wars but also loves the Revenant and knows where it is strong and where it is weak so that the gaps can be closed. A "Soft" redesign would not be totally bad, as long as they don't gut what makes the revenant different. (Energy management must stay, I enjoy it because it adds to my gameplay and makes me really think before doing something. If I wanted a guardian/warrior I would play those classes, I play the revenant for what it is but that does not mean I don't see the glaring issues of the class as a whole.) Every class has flaws, the revenants is that is is more limited then the other class's but it makes up for it with fun and intense gameplay... nothing like outplaying one of the A-net babies (Ele, messmer, warrior, ranger..) and beating them not because your kit is better... but because you yourself are due to knowing your class and it's limits as well how to counter those limits.

While some of you math is a little off (shortbow aa would be like .45sec) using madking runes with Kalla Elite made me grin from ear to ear ;-)

I don't think going shortbow is the right option for this concept. I believe double melee would be the way to go for some evades fast ticking attacks. Minstrel sounds questionable but maybe something like crusaders?

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"Svez Poizon XD.5268" said:

Explanation-how strong renegade is:

(...). It has 0,5 sec cd and with quickness that is 0,25 sec per shot

... that carry 2 procs of life steal with it....

so you actually do ~800 true dmg and 800-1300+ healing per shot and you can do 4 shots per sec and 8 procs of ultimate life steal.

And that is not all.... rune of the mad king spawns "Hunter's call" ranger spell that does 16x tiks of dmg when you cast you ultimate, also icerazor's ire has 20x tiks of dmg and there is 15x F3 bombardement etc which makes these 3 up to 51x tiks procs of life steal dmg from ultimate without spamming 1111 shortbow-shattershot. So as i said above, life siphon/steal dmg has very bad power scaling and very high base dmg stats which means you don't rly need offensive stats. So i used minstrel gear(toughness,healing power,vitality,concentration) and i bursted ppl down so fast many times in wvw/pvp. Healing is insane, best sustain in game i can say and if you are good in maths 51x 400 true dmg per proc on ultimate is around ~20 000 true dmg for very very short time without 111 spaming that do 800 true dmg per shot or around 2400-3200 true dmg per sec by just spamming arrows. I use 2 shortbows in both weapon slots and reason why is this so good-you also don't use energy on 1 skill and it also do most dmg and healing.

Yup yup :)

@Svez Poizon XD.5268 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Svez Poizon XD.5268 said:

Explanation-how strong renegade is:

(...). It has 0,5 sec cd and with quickness that is 0,25 sec per shot

... that carry 2 procs of life steal with it....

so you actually do ~800 true dmg and 800-1300+ healing per shot and you can do 4 shots per sec and 8 procs of ultimate life steal.

And that is not all.... rune of the mad king spawns "Hunter's call" ranger spell that does 16x tiks of dmg when you cast you ultimate, also icerazor's ire has 20x tiks of dmg and there is 15x F3 bombardement etc which makes these 3 up to 51x tiks procs of life steal dmg from ultimate without spamming 1111 shortbow-shattershot. So as i said above, life siphon/steal dmg has very bad power scaling and very high base dmg stats which means you don't rly need offensive stats. So i used minstrel gear(toughness,healing power,vitality,concentration) and i bursted ppl down so fast many times in wvw/pvp. Healing is insane, best sustain in game i can say and if you are good in maths 51x 400 true dmg per proc on ultimate is around ~20 000 true dmg for very very short time without 111 spaming that do 800 true dmg per shot or around 2400-3200 true dmg per sec by just spamming arrows. I use 2 shortbows in both weapon slots and reason why is this so good-you also don't use energy on 1 skill and it also do most dmg and healing.

Can we troll you now?