Do we really have something to Shout about! Shouts and traits ideas

Do we really have something to Shout about?

There has been some discussion about the Guardian Shouts along with their associated trait and how most of them have fallen by the wayside as far as usefulness except in some rather limited situations, I'm going to make a few possible suggestions on ways that they could be improved and thus see a return to use . I'd also like to thank everybody that responded with their various input to my earlier thread on this subject.Particularly starlinvf.1358 who reminded me of the use of Channeling/Pulsing in the game and got me thinking about reusing the mechanic and also reminded me of a skill type of the Paragon called Echo’s. Please note I am in no way saying these are perfect this is some of my ideas on ways of improving the usefulness of these skills.

Receive The Light : This skill stays as it is except on how it's pulsing works with the modification to the Trait: Pure Of Voice in that the conversion of a trait to a boon would happen on every pulse.

Hold The Line: This Shout’s issue could be addressed by having the it pulse Protection and instead of Regeneration have it give a Barrier. Of course changing to pulsing would require a change to the duration, for example bring Protection down to either 2 or 3 seconds with 3 pulses and each pulse would also apply Barrier ( maybe 700 to no more than 1000 per pulse just as a guess considering it is totally defensive).

Retreat: This Shout’s issues can be addressed by using pulsing as on the previous Shout , and again the duration would need to be adjusted for the pulsing modification and in this case I would suggest both Aegis and Swiftness durations be changed to 8 seconds with 3 pulses so in total you would have 24 seconds for both.

Save Yourselves: This Shout I’m following the same format as I’ve mentioned in the ones earlier but with a few modifications, again only 3 pulses but on each pulse you will pull all of your allies conditions to you so there is potentially more risk to the Guardian, the Guardian is also gaining the Buffs on each pulse so the suggested change to the duration would be 3 to 4 seconds for everything but Resistance which should be 1 ¼ second per pulse and I would also suggest the the Guardian receive 3 to 4 stacks of Might from each pulse instead of the base one stack the final modification is that if the Guardian is put into a downed stated before the last pulse(3 seconds) then all of his allies gain the last buff from the Shout. (Note even if he were downed on the first pulse his allies would still only gain one pulse worth of the buffs). Note the Break Stun benefit is only on the first pulse and again only for the Guardian

Stand Your Ground: Again staying with the same changes with regard to pulsing(3 pulses) followed by adjusting the duration and stacks , so that it will now give Retaliation at 2 seconds per pulse and Stability staying at 6 seconds per pulse but only giving 2 stacks per pulse along with Breaking Stun on the first Pulse.

Feel My Wrath: Changing this to a pulsing format (3 pulses) would require the changes to duration such that Quickness would now be 3 seconds per pulse and Fury also at 3 seconds per pulse (losing a second on Fury but gaining one on Quickness)

Trait: Pure Of Voice: This trait would be modified so that the conversion of a Condition to a Boon would happen on every pulse from a Shout while still having 20% recharge reduction.

Footnotes:

1. I am aware that this still leaves the Shouts as a primarily defensive utility but to be honest I wasn't working towards a complete rework , I was attempting to adjust them so to maintain the spirit and the theme of their original design but to make them move viable with the game as it is now.

2. “They are so Overpowered!” Well actually no in that they still suffer from from their original weakness of Boon Stripping, Corruption, etc just now they offer some potential for counter play and well played Boon Stripper will just wait out the pulsing or deal with the Guard as the boons are reapplied.

3. I did think of modifying or changing some the Boons to Conditions but again I didn't want change the overall theme ( I wanted add Vigor to “Retreat” but I thought it might be to much and for the record “I HateShouting “Retreat” when I'm running towards an enemy.)

4. Love it , hate it whatever this is just an idea if anyone has better one I'm more than happy to hear from you.

   5. Before everyone starts mentioning the FB does this or the DH does that I am aware of that I writing this with just the Core Guardian in mind as it may help any of the other elites was secondary.

I totally didn't have idea yesterday or day before for next guardian elite spec being build around shouts and echo skills

interesting idea, not sure how it'd balance out in the longterm tho

I certain that it needs work and can be improved , this was just a rough draft so to speak while trying not to go off the deep end as it were in the way of a complete redesign or going completely overpowered but as I said it isn't prefect but its a start. I was hoping for more feedback but so far not much. Thanks for commenting

I like shouts in general and always has, i find them intuitive and fun, but as the game evolved they are now out of date.

Give shouts the ammosystem and add to Pure of Voice that Altruistic Healing now also heal allies in a 600 radius. That combined with trooper runes would make the shout guardian and good healer/supporter imo. Valor/Honor/Virtues would be so fun with those two small changes.

Huge boost to the core support guardian which is needed as well.

I don't think there would be any major issues with making them pulse but you do have to be very careful when considering durations and number of stacks.For example, these changes would make "Retreat!" pretty strong, basically making it a (albeit corruptible) 3 second block skill and a potential 3,5k heal. "Stand Your Ground!" would essentially get a buff as it would be less vulnerable to corruption, and it's already a solid skill.On the other hand, these changes would do barely anything to make "Receive the Light!" more viable, arguably the skill that needs it the most. You would gain the condi cleanses from any other shout equally well, and the Firebrand mantra would still be a stronger heal because of the amount of control it gives. Maybe add that Vigor you wanted here?

Out of principle, I have to say that you can't just ignore the elite specs by saying this is aimed for Core. You need to make it synergize somehow with core in a way that doesn't quite work with the elite specs IF you want to ignore them. 1 way to do that is to build a 3 core traitline synergy. Like how Dragonhunter doesn't gain the full benefit from Righteous Instincts because their Retal uptime just doesn't cut it on their own with the DH traitline, or they'll have to sacrifice damage in another area in order to gain it. The other way to do it is to make it rely on something the ESpecs don't have. Which in Guardians case would be core Virtues. With both of these aspects missing, you will have to take the Elites into account. Not that these changes would affect either ESpec that much, just saying you can't ignore them either because it happens to be convenient.

It's OT and I'm sorry, but I couldn't help remembering the Patch Note of the last April's fool:

Certain shouts have been renamed to be more positive."Save Yourselves!": This shout has been renamed "I'll Protect You!""Retreat!": This shout has been renamed "Let's Push Forward!""Feel My Wrath!": This shout has been renamed "Feel My Wrath, Please!"

The last one in particular made me laugh out loud.

@"Brutaly.6257" said:Give shouts the ammosystem and add to Pure of Voice that Altruistic Healing now also heal allies in a 600 radius. That combined with trooper runes would make the shout guardian and good healer/supporter imo. Valor/Honor/Virtues would be so fun with those two small changes.

Huge boost to the core support guardian which is needed as well.

I really looked at the new ammo system as a possible solution but after considering it I decided to try something different for a few different reasons.

1. Was alot of people would immediately say that it was overpowered and to be honest there be a good that it was if you made all of the Shouts ammo based.
   2. While I don't think the change to Warriors Shouts to the ammo system was a bad idea and totally understand why Fear Me is not also under the ammo system I do feel the breaking of mechanics system for the one Shout feels poorly executed.
   3. I don't see the ammo system a cure all and to be honest I feel it would leave the Shouts feeling to much like the Mantras.

All of that aside I have also thought that Altruistic Healing should possibly give about half of the healing it does for the Guardian out to nearby allies .

Thank you for your ideas

@"Yannir.4132" said:I don't think there would be any major issues with making them pulse but you do have to be very careful when considering durations and number of stacks.For example, these changes would make "Retreat!" pretty strong, basically making it a (albeit corruptible) 3 second block skill and a potential 3,5k heal. "Stand Your Ground!" would essentially get a buff as it would be less vulnerable to corruption, and it's already a solid skill.On the other hand, these changes would do barely anything to make "Receive the Light!" more viable, arguably the skill that needs it the most. You would gain the condi cleanses from any other shout equally well, and the Firebrand mantra would still be a stronger heal because of the amount of control it gives. Maybe add that Vigor you wanted here?

Out of principle, I have to say that you can't just ignore the elite specs by saying this is aimed for Core. You need to make it synergize somehow with core in a way that doesn't quite work with the elite specs IF you want to ignore them. 1 way to do that is to build a 3 core traitline synergy. Like how Dragonhunter doesn't gain the full benefit from Righteous Instincts because their Retal uptime juideasI sn't cut it on their own with the DH traitline, or they'll have to sacrifice damage in another area in order to gain it. The other way to do it is to make it rely on something the ESpecs don't have. Which in Guardians case would be core Virtues. With both of these aspects missing, you will have to take the Elites into account. Not that these changes would affect either ESpec that much, just saying you can't ignore them either because it happens to be convenient.

I was looking at the issue with Retreat myself but came to the conclusion that while it isn't perfect it is a start after I checked and found that it isn't the only 3 second block out there in the game and it still has all of the inherent weakness of Aegis in that it will only block the first attack of a multiple strike attack, it doesn't block all attacks during that 3 second time period.Stand Your Ground I wasn't 100% sure on truthfully but as I said to Brutaly with regard to the Warrior Shout changes omitting the changes to certain Shouts but only applying them to others came across arbitrary to me so came up with what could any ideas on something different?Yeah agree with you on the Receive The Light needing something and Vigor would help without going over the top.Yes totally agree with your point that the other Elites have to be considered and the effects these changes would have can't be viewed in isolation , this was just my initial attempt at getting some ideas out there for discussion and see what we can come up with.

Well, there has been a surge of guardian shout threads lately. Which is good, cuz most of the shouts suck :/ . Hopefully a dev takes notice. My suggestions as I posted it in another thread:

@otto.5684 said:Stand your ground back to back. Why not ?

I think all guardians shouts except feel my wrath and stand your ground need an overhaul. Especially receive the light. The ammo will not work well. My suggestions:

Saver yourselves, remove the entire pulling condis to you. Reduce CD to 40 secs. Make the 2 sec resistance 5 targets.

Retreat, reduce CD to 25. Provides 2 secs super speed to 5 allies.

Hold the line, in addition to what it does, reduce incoming damage by 10% for 6 secs for 5 targets.

Receive the light, change something similar to ranger, we heal as one when traited. It should have an instant heal for you and heal overtime for you and allies with good heal scaling.

The idea is that shouts and honor line could become an alternative to meditations and valor. Also, give shouts a none boon component.

In honor major master traits, I would remove empowering might, since it is a useless trait. New trait, using a shout increases toughness by 250 for 4 secs and remove a 1 deliberating condi effect (to take effect before pure voice).

@otto.5684 said:Well, there has been a surge of guardian shout threads lately. Which is good, cuz most of them suck :/ . Hopefully a dev takes notice. My suggestions as I posted it in another thread:

@otto.5684 said:Stand your ground back to back. Why not ?

I think all guardians shouts except feel my wrath and stand your ground need an overhaul. Especially receive the light. The ammo will not work well. My suggestions:

Saver yourselves, remove the entire pulling condis to you. Reduce CD to 40 secs. Make the 2 sec resistance 5 targets.

Retreat, reduce CD to 25. Provides 2 secs super speed to 5 allies.

Hold the line, in addition to what it does, reduce incoming damage by 10% for 6 secs for 5 targets.

Receive the light, change something similar to ranger, we heal as one when traited. It should have an instant heal for you and heal overtime for you and allies with good heal scaling.

The idea is that shouts and honor line could become an alternative to meditations and valor. Also, give shouts a none boon component.

In honor major master traits, I would remove empowering might, since it is a useless trait. New trait, using a shout increases toughness by 250 for 4 secs and remove a 1 deliberating condi effect (to take effect before pure voice).

Ok while I wouldn't be so quick to denigrate other peoples input that quickly, I do remember your previous post I did think some of your takes were interesting I was particularly unsure on the trait portion with regard to 250 Toughness. The problem is that while I think it works Anet has had a habit of lower or outright removing large boosts to Stats from Traits and in some cases even the Utility skills it self (note Toughness has often been targeted both in PvP and WvW) with there argument being to reduce the benefit from passive game play. I do think that Guardian shouldn't be hit so hard on this in my personal opinion being as we are the bottom tier health pool and have to deal with the constant increase in unblockable attacks but irrespective of my views the Stat input reduction from traits is happening.

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:

@otto.5684 said:Well, there has been a surge of guardian shout threads lately. Which is good, cuz most of them suck :/ . Hopefully a dev takes notice. My suggestions as I posted it in another thread:

@otto.5684 said:Stand your ground back to back. Why not ?

I think all guardians shouts except feel my wrath and stand your ground need an overhaul. Especially receive the light. The ammo will not work well. My suggestions:

Saver yourselves, remove the entire pulling condis to you. Reduce CD to 40 secs. Make the 2 sec resistance 5 targets.

Retreat, reduce CD to 25. Provides 2 secs super speed to 5 allies.

Hold the line, in addition to what it does, reduce incoming damage by 10% for 6 secs for 5 targets.

Receive the light, change something similar to ranger, we heal as one when traited. It should have an instant heal for you and heal overtime for you and allies with good heal scaling.

The idea is that shouts and honor line could become an alternative to meditations and valor. Also, give shouts a none boon component.

In honor major master traits, I would remove empowering might, since it is a useless trait. New trait, using a shout increases toughness by 250 for 4 secs and remove a 1 deliberating condi effect (to take effect before pure voice).

I was not aiming to denigrate anyone's opinion and I apologize if it sounded that way. I still do not think that ammo is going to work for shouts. It will be over powered for stand your ground. It does not really solve guardian shout issues otherwise. It makes more sense that the shouts are effective to begin with; specifically hold the lone, save your selves and receive the light. Also, having ammo count for warrior shouts did not make them sPvP viable (though I hear they are usable in WvW). Ammo recharge did not make SW PvP viable either. If the skill does not work, having more of it does not make it work.

And in my opinion, as guardian is currently structured, it will always be a competition between mediation and shouts on utility slots (and honestly any "group" utilities). LoW alone tilts the scale way in favor of mediation and valor. If honor is to be an alternative for dps builds, it has to offer enough without offering additional support to FB. Receive the light is key in this change. If the heal shout cannot carry dps using honor, it will never be used as such. And outside of stand your ground, there is no functional use for shouts, even if there is a buff to them.

@"otto.5684" said:I was not aiming to denigrate anyone's opinion and I apologize if it sounded that way.I really didn't take it that way I just wasn't sure if I was catching you on a bad day etc..I still do not think that ammo is going to work for shouts. It will be over powered for stand your ground. It does not really solve guardian shout issues otherwise. It makes more sense that the shouts are effective to begin with; specifically hold the lone, save your selves and receive the light. Also, having ammo count for warrior shouts did not make them sPvP viable (though I hear they are usable in WvW). Ammo recharge did not make SW PvP viable either. If the skill does not work, having more of it does not make it work.

We are already on the same page with regard to the ammo system being used for Guardian Shouts as I stated earlier to Brutaly post.And in my opinion, as guardian is currently structured, it will always be a competition between mediation and shouts on utility slots (and honestly any "group" utilities). LoW alone tilts the scale way in favor of mediation and valor. If honor is to be an alternative for dps builds, it has to offer enough without offering additional support to FB. Receive the light is key in this change. If the heal shout cannot carry dps using honor, it will never be used as such. And outside of stand your ground, there is no functional use for shouts, even if there is a buff to them.

Very good point on Valor/Mediation conflict vesus Honor and how it can more less be boiled down to how to rework Receive The Light. Another thought is the trait Pure of Heart which heals when Aegis blocks an attack but it will also heals your allies. What if the healing on that were to be increased enough to warrant swapping it to Grandmaster and bring Pure of Voice down to Master you might see it used.Just throwing that out there but it's kind of like the Zealous Blade trait modification , personally I never understood tying the healing aspect into it I've always thought that it would make more sense for it to trigger a few of seconds of Fury and or Retaliation on a critical with a CD and just take the healing portion out of it and move it to Virtues say Battle Presence but change it to have where a Guardian's combos in his own Light fields also act like a Water field plus the original Battle Presence effect possibly but rename it the Healing Light or something to that effect.

Shouts in general needs a bit of help, they've touched Warrior's shouts a bit but still needs a bit of help. For guardians though here's a few changes I'd suggest for bringing it up to modern standards.

"Hold the Line!" - Give it 2s of resistance and a 1.8k barrier in addition to it's current effects. Make it a ammo skill with 2 charges.

"Retreat!" - Make it a ammo skill with 3 charges, reduce the swiftness application from 30s to 15s.

"Save Yourselves!" - Make it grant barrier to the guardian with the strength of the barrier is determined by the amount of conditions pulled. (700ish on the initial skill, and 1k per unique condition pulled from allies)

"Feel My Wrath!" Add 8s of Retaliation in addition to its current effects and make it apply 5 stacks for 3s of burning to enemies around you when used.

@"Lucentfir.7430" said:Shouts in general needs a bit of help, they've touched Warrior's shouts a bit but still needs a bit of help. For guardians though here's a few changes I'd suggest for bringing it up to modern standards.

"Hold the Line!" - Give it 2s of resistance and a 1.8k barrier in addition to it's current effects. Make it a ammo skill with 2 charges.

"Retreat!" - Make it a ammo skill with 3 charges, reduce the swiftness application from 30s to 15s.

"Save Yourselves!" - Make it grant barrier to the guardian with the strength of the barrier is determined by the amount of conditions pulled. (700ish on the initial skill, and 1k per unique condition pulled from allies)

"Feel My Wrath!" Add 8s of Retaliation in addition to its current effects and make it apply 5 stacks for 3s of burning to enemies around you when used.

So what you want is something like this then :Hold The Line : Ammo based with 2 charges (not sure about time between triggering charges you did make any comments on this) It now gives Protection (6s), Regeneration (6s) , Resistance (2s), and Barrier of 1.8k. Hmmm not going happen , don't get me wrong from my own completely bias Pro Guardian personal viewpoint I'd love it but from the standpoint of any sort of game balance it's to much.

Retreat: Change it to Ammo based again I'm not sure of the time between triggering charges, and Swiftness (15s instead of 20s). This could happen depending on the time between triggering charges.

Save Yourselfs: Basically your getting Barrier for each Condition along with an initial Barrier , could work but it would depend on the numbers on the Barriers and of course they may change Barrier into a boon later on in time, from previous experience I wouldn't expect it to happen anymore than I'm expecting the changes I suggested myself being as they have shown themselves to be very hesitant to make very large scale changes to certain classes Guardian being one of them.

Feel My Wrath: Ok I like it but I really can't see it happening without them really increasing the Cool down on this to offset the addition of the Retaliation and 5 stacks of Burning, and while it's overall impact as it presently is may seem pretty limited that actually works to our advantage in the it keeps it with shorter Cool Down so we can gain access to the Fury and Quickness very consistently I do think adding in Retaliation would be ok and hopefully not push up the CD or if it did not by to much but the 5 stacks of Burning if it was implemented they would have to increase the CD.Thank you for your input