About Balthazar... — Guild Wars 2 Forums

About Balthazar...

Lucas.3718Lucas.3718 Member ✭✭

There is something about Balthazar that needs some explenation, regarding some events in both guild wars 2 and 1 so spoiler alert

so where do i start... in the beginning before the events of even guild wars 1, the gods were forced to leave tyria behind since the war between them and abaddon, even though they won. this was to prevent further possible damage to the world. but (correct me if im wrong but it is nowhere said that the gods had to flee from the eldar dragons and therefore abbandon the world like it was nothing) as balthazar himself said in the pof story of guild wars 2 "i do not avoid conflict! I AM conflict", he chose to remain and wanted to fight the elder dragons (maybe because in his eyes they ment a threat to the human race, since he himself conquered Tyria for the humans) but the other gods (probably) knew that:
1. he alone was too weak to stand a chance the elder dragons on his own
2. the destruction of the elder dragons ment the end of tyria, the doom of the planet
so for tyrias and his own safeties sake, they imprisoned him in the mists. not sure when this happened, since the game doesnt deliver the infromation, i would say it is around the time, the events of guild wars 1 started to happen (correct me if im wrong in any case). if this is indeed the case, then the following wouldnt make much sense.
before the final battle of nightfall where the heroes defeat adabbon, kormir is given a blessing of all 5 gods, with which she is able to absorb his magic and ascend to godhood. but if we where to assume that balthazar was already imprisoned durring that time, what was that avatar of balthazar?
the missing point in the history of the gods is when exactly did he got banished from the gods and imprisoned to the mists?

there is a thing that kinda doesnt make sense too, that i might have missed.
the timestemp says that the gods left since the imprisonment of abaddon in the realm of torment, which happend way before gw1. in this case Balthazars action wouldnt realy make much sense
The pof story says, that the gods saw a war against the elder dragons as extreme calamity to the world and chose to flee, in this scenario it would make sense that balthazar went mental when the gods left the world, since he saw it as an act of cowardess, but he got himself imprisoned in the mists (no special realm mentioned). this event would happen shortly after the abaddons death, since his death would start the cycle of destuction and awaken the elder dragons, primordus first. this would make much more sense

so if we go with the timestemps durring the events of guild wars 1 there where only 4 true gods (dwayna,grenth,melandru,lyssa), since he was stripped of his title early, and the avatar of balthazar being there would be a mistake or an imposter.
if we would go with the pof story and kormirs story telling, then all would make sense, since his fall from grace would happen between guild wars 1 and guild wars 2.

hope i didnt make it to complicatet for you guys. if i missed something feel free to correct me :)

Comments

  • ok firstly: they were not forced to leave tyria after abaddon's mess, they chose to.

    from what I understood they have found out of elder dragons existance slightly bit later at least as far as whole six is concerned - abaddy could have known earlier but if he did, he forgot to mention it to the rest.

    for the timeline: at the end of nightfall all of the six (with kormir freshly included) are there and fine.
    somewhere in between nightfall and gw2 core 5 makes decision to not stay around to fight EDs (because learning on mistakes with abaddy I guess) but balth being stubborn and such decides to stay

    here's a bit of my personal interpretation without confirmation in canon:
    the 5 having learned from abaddy's crisis decided to not confront balthy about his will to fight so they pose that they will let him be whatever, and while he turns back on him they use sneaky methods to quickly drain him out of power so they can imprison him but without having to openly fight him. dunno what they did with excess energy. having learned again from abaddy's crisis thing they decide not to build whole massive prison for him that could like - draw attention, but instead they just chained him up in the middle of mist's equivalent of "pretty much nowhere"
    to support that speculation I only have fact that there were no seen aftermath of confrontation (as it was after abaddons confrontation) and two lines from balth in flashpoint episode ("I have learned there is no honor in war", and "they dimmed my light...")

    end of speculation, back to confirmed things:
    he was chained up in as far as we can tell random place in the mists and the 5 (or 6 if they've got new war/fire guy to replace balthy) left the mists (this one was spreaded in time as we see kormir lagging behind

    by the way "death of abaddon" and "fall of abaddon" are to separate events - latter one occured just before exodus, former was at the very end of nightfall campaing and was said to be the thing that started the cycle of ED's awakening.

    I hope I managed to clear up some of your confusion in here :)

  • ok, with the Avatar thing, it's gods being there but not there, it's a medium gods used to communicate with Kormir

    an Avatar is the manifestation of a god, the manifestation is not actually god themselves

    This is displayed through Personal Story if you picked Durmand Priory, you need to find an artifact linked to Balthazar, which the priory will use a ritual to draw Balthazar magic to turn you into an Avatar of Balthazar

    [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]     [TTS] [KA] [SI]     [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]
  • So the main issue the OP has is thinking that the Exodus of the Gods is the departure talked about during Facing the Truth, and it isn't. He seems to be mixing up - as Lord Trejgon points out - the Fall of Abaddon and Nightfall as the same event when they're two very, very separate events.

    After the Exodus, the gods physically left the world, but remained nearby in the Mists (namely, their realms) and remained in constant contact. Shortly after Abaddon's death over a millennia later (the end of Nightfall), and the Elder Dragons began to wake up, the Six decide to leave the realms in search of a new world. It is this "further departure" that the avatars go silent, and the gods left 'because of the Elder Dragons' as well as being when Balthazar became Balthaddon and rebelled for childish reasons.

    We don't have an exact date, but Balthazar's fall from grace occurs post-GW1, and it's suggested it happened a while ago. Which would imo, place it to be around 200 years ago (50 years after GW1). A lot of other major events occur around that decade too - the last of the dwarves undergroing the Rite, creation of the Zephyrites and Exalted (and Tarir), rising of both Primordus and the DSD (presumably, still iffy there), Joko diverting the Elon, and Usoku beginning his conquest. Anet likes having a mutltitude of related-and-unrelated events occurring at the same time (200 years before GW1 had a lot of events too).

    A few clarifications on other parts:

    @Lucas.3718 said:
    in the beginning before the events of even guild wars 1, the gods were forced to leave tyria behind since the war between them and abaddon, even though they won. this was to prevent further possible damage to the world.

    This is only half correct. They did leave, presumably to prevent further possible damage to the world, but they were not forced to leave; they chose to.

    @Lucas.3718 said:
    [Balthazar] chose to remain and wanted to fight the elder dragons (maybe because in his eyes they ment a threat to the human race, since he himself conquered Tyria for the humans)

    So two things here. Firstly, Balthazar did not conquer Tyria. He pressured for humanity to conquer for themselves. Secondly, Balthazar wanted to battle the Elder Dragons because he was - per the devs in AMAs - bored from not having a good battle in a long time (of course this has some oddities since the devs' claim is that he hadn't had a good fight since Abaddon, but there was the Menzies mess in GW1).

    @Lucas.3718 said:
    before the final battle of nightfall where the heroes defeat adabbon, kormir is given a blessing of all 5 gods, with which she is able to absorb his magic and ascend to godhood. but if we where to assume that balthazar was already imprisoned durring that time, what was that avatar of balthazar?

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    ok, with the Avatar thing, it's gods being there but not there, it's a medium gods used to communicate with Kormir

    an Avatar is the manifestation of a god, the manifestation is not actually god themselves

    This is displayed through Personal Story if you picked Durmand Priory, you need to find an artifact linked to Balthazar, which the priory will use a ritual to draw Balthazar magic to turn you into an Avatar of Balthazar

    Avatars are shown to be souls or otherwise mortals who were blessed and gifted power by their respective gods. The Seven Reapers are the avatars we know the most about, and they were the mortals who helped Grenth overcome Dhuum, given ranking of avatar and management over the Underworld as a reward for that deed.

    The Avatar of Balthazar wouldn't be Balthazar or even need Balthazar to be alive to be an avatar, by all indication; after all, Margonites still existed after Abaddon's death, and they seem to be fairly close to what avatars are. But Balthazar was still a god at that point anyways so that's moot.

    The idol of Balthazar isn't quite the same as the avatar of Balthazar seen in GW1, as the later was very much a spectral entity who lived in the Mists and not a mortal temporarily blessed with Balthazar's powers. More accurately, the idol of Balthazar temporarily gives one some of the abilities and powers of the avatars of Balthazar, but isn't what the actual avatars are.

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:
    from what I understood they have found out of elder dragons existance slightly bit later at least as far as whole six is concerned - abaddy could have known earlier but if he did, he forgot to mention it to the rest.

    The Tome of the Five True Gods mentioned repeatedly in Season 2 suggests the Six Gods did know of the Elder Dragons before the Exodus - though Randhall Greyston does suggest during Arah that they did not know where the Elder Dragons were as he suggests the Six Gods didn't know they were drawing from Zhaitan when empowering the Bloodstone during its division. In Crystalline Memories of PoF, one of Glint's memory crystals also suggests that the Forgotten have kept the Six Gods informed, moreso than Glint was.

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:
    the 5 having learned from abaddy's crisis decided to not confront balthy about his will to fight so they pose that they will let him be whatever, and while he turns back on him they use sneaky methods to quickly drain him out of power so they can imprison him but without having to openly fight him. dunno what they did with excess energy. having learned again from abaddy's crisis thing they decide not to build whole massive prison for him that could like - draw attention, but instead they just chained him up in the middle of mist's equivalent of "pretty much nowhere"
    to support that speculation I only have fact that there were no seen aftermath of confrontation (as it was after abaddons confrontation) and two lines from balth in flashpoint episode ("I have learned there is no honor in war", and "they dimmed my light...")

    Well, the main difference between Balthazar's rebellion and Abaddon's, is that Abaddon joined in a war already occurring, and didn't announce his intention in the middle of a meeting, so by the time the other gods learned of his involvement, Abaddon already had an army of empowered mortals. Balthazar, in this case, wouldn't; he wouldn't have even been at the Fissure of Woe (fate unknown) to call upon his Eternals. It should also be noted there were plans for a "wrecked Hall of Heroes" to be where we enter the Mists before meeting Kormir, but this was scrapped for a shorter, simpler puzzle with the eight star symbol of the Sunspears; this would suggest that maybe the conflict occurred at the Hall of Heroes.

    As for where he was imprisoned, the cinematic shows chains from the sky and embers, which matches Fissure of Woe's aesthetics perfectly, more so if the Temple of War's forge was snuffed out.

    Both still speculative, but could explain the lack of apparent devastation and whatnot.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:
    from what I understood they have found out of elder dragons existance slightly bit later at least as far as whole six is concerned - abaddy could have known earlier but if he did, he forgot to mention it to the rest.

    The Tome of the Five True Gods mentioned repeatedly in Season 2 suggests the Six Gods did know of the Elder Dragons before the Exodus - though Randhall Greyston does suggest during Arah that they did not know where the Elder Dragons were as he suggests the Six Gods didn't know they were drawing from Zhaitan when empowering the Bloodstone during its division. In Crystalline Memories of PoF, one of Glint's memory crystals also suggests that the Forgotten have kept the Six Gods informed, moreso than Glint was.

    I stand corrected, must have missed these lore bits. (didn't got to arah explorable at all in the end :/)

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:
    the 5 having learned from abaddy's crisis decided to not confront balthy about his will to fight so they pose that they will let him be whatever, and while he turns back on him they use sneaky methods to quickly drain him out of power so they can imprison him but without having to openly fight him. dunno what they did with excess energy. having learned again from abaddy's crisis thing they decide not to build whole massive prison for him that could like - draw attention, but instead they just chained him up in the middle of mist's equivalent of "pretty much nowhere"
    to support that speculation I only have fact that there were no seen aftermath of confrontation (as it was after abaddons confrontation) and two lines from balth in flashpoint episode ("I have learned there is no honor in war", and "they dimmed my light...")

    Well, the main difference between Balthazar's rebellion and Abaddon's, is that Abaddon joined in a war already occurring, and didn't announce his intention in the middle of a meeting, so by the time the other gods learned of his involvement, Abaddon already had an army of empowered mortals. Balthazar, in this case, wouldn't; he wouldn't have even been at the Fissure of Woe (fate unknown) to call upon his Eternals. It should also be noted there were plans for a "wrecked Hall of Heroes" to be where we enter the Mists before meeting Kormir, but this was scrapped for a shorter, simpler puzzle with the eight star symbol of the Sunspears; this would suggest that maybe the conflict occurred at the Hall of Heroes.

    fair point as well.

    As for where he was imprisoned, the cinematic shows chains from the sky and embers, which matches Fissure of Woe's aesthetics perfectly, more so if the Temple of War's forge was snuffed out.

    Both still speculative, but could explain the lack of apparent devastation and whatnot.

    well maybe my memories are playing tricks on me but I remembered FoW as slightly more in black colours and the scene in cinematic more in blues than blacks which is why I didn't made that connection. That would also rise a question what happened with immortals? if he was imprisoned in FoW what would stop them from freeing him? (and from what I understood first generation of forged were immortals bound to those armor suits, so after he got freed it seems he had no issue calling onto them)

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