Signet of Locust

Shouldn't the cast time be reduced to like .25 seconds? It's not even that great an active and if you're using it as an "oh noes" button you're probably taking just as much damage during the cast time as you would be gaining.

It's pretty hard to complain about a skill that can heal you for that much and damage targets around you. 30 seconds is a bit long in the tooth but I'm thinking it couldn't be lowered without some other adjustment, like fewer targets or less effect. Always hard to balance these AOE skills.

@Obtena.7952 said:It's pretty hard to complain about a skill that can heal you for that much and damage targets around you. 30 seconds is a bit long in the tooth but I'm thinking it couldn't be lowered without some other adjustment, like fewer targets or less effect. Always hard to balance these AOE skills.

necros need less aoe skills and more effective ones.

@TheDevice.2751 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:It's pretty hard to complain about a skill that can heal you for that much and damage targets around you. 30 seconds is a bit long in the tooth but I'm thinking it couldn't be lowered without some other adjustment, like fewer targets or less effect. Always hard to balance these AOE skills.

Sure, but I don't see what that has to do with the topic unless that's part of your proposal.

@Obtena.7952 said:

@TheDevice.2751 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:It's pretty hard to complain about a skill that can heal you for that much and damage targets around you. 30 seconds is a bit long in the tooth but I'm thinking it couldn't be lowered without some other adjustment, like fewer targets or less effect. Always hard to balance these AOE skills.

I'm sure you can figure it out.

@Obtena.7952 said:It's pretty hard to complain about a skill that can heal you for that much and damage targets around you. 30 seconds is a bit long in the tooth but I'm thinking it couldn't be lowered without some other adjustment, like fewer targets or less effect. Always hard to balance these AOE skills.

hmm... the effective heal of this skill is -10000000. 30 seconds for 1500 heal in 1 v 1 only in 600 range to the enemy on 30 seconds is really bad. and with just 600 range to use this skill for max heal you have to be in range for 5 enemies. but in that case you got bursted by everyone of them cause necro is EVER first target. so in real Combat situations you get bursted by 1 DE for 20k dmg, 1 Mirage for 20k dmg, 1 warrior for 10 k dmg, 1 soulbeast for 10-20 k dmg, …. while healing 7500 lifepoints. there are reasons nearly no necro is using it. you cant use it properly in the current meta.

@Zero.3871 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:It's pretty hard to complain about a skill that can heal you for that much and damage targets around you. 30 seconds is a bit long in the tooth but I'm thinking it couldn't be lowered without some other adjustment, like fewer targets or less effect. Always hard to balance these AOE skills.

Yup, but that doesn't change what I said. It's situational for sure, but when it does hit, it's the jackpot. That's exactly why I said AOE skills are hard to balance and this is no exception. There isn't any suggestion that's going to fly without recognizing this capability on this skill.

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Zero.3871 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:It's pretty hard to complain about a skill that can heal you for that much and damage targets around you. 30 seconds is a bit long in the tooth but I'm thinking it couldn't be lowered without some other adjustment, like fewer targets or less effect. Always hard to balance these AOE skills.

thats what i tried to explain. it is NEVER a Jackpot. necromancer is all about positioning. if you can use it at max efficiency you have a bad position because you are next to 5 enemies that will spike you to death. at maximum, in the perfect Situation it heals you for 7500 while getting hits for 50k dmg. at Minimum it heals Nothing. there is never a "7500 heal while getting no dmg"-Scenario. if you would have an invul like Warriors, than you would be correctly with your assumption that this skill has a high potential because you can go into the enemies group, use the heal while being invul, and still have time to retreat from them and Reposition but without invul this skill is just really,really bad..

I don't want to play the devil advocate but 7500 potential heal with a 3/4 cast time and 30 second CD already put a lot of "proper" healing skills to shame. If you add to that the damage and the passive swiftness effect, the signet is borderline OP. (especially since it's not a healing skill)

Now, Yes, like most necro skill it lack QoL. Yes, like most necro skills it would be awesome if it could get a faster cast time and/or a lower CD. But, would it be worth the trad? ANet isn't known to give QoL without taking an arm in compensation. ANet is more known to pile up useless effects on a single skill until it become OP when the stars align. ANet like to keep up the frustration while still giving the feel that they buff professions, and, most likely, if they were to "buff" signet of locust, they wouldn't even begin to start reducing it's cast time. More likely they'd end up adding a few second of regen or, maybe, fury/might on top of the active effect.

Correct. The AOE is not hard to balance. Healing less when only one threat is nearby and healing more with more threats is (!) the balancing. That's the purpose of the scaling. The skill balances itself depending on the situation.

The cast time is too long for the effect.

@"Dadnir.5038" said:I don't want to play the devil advocate but 7500 potential heal with a 3/4 cast time and 30 second CD already put a lot of "proper" healing skills to shame.

I was using a core Blood Magic build for something like 3 (+?) years, well in to PoF, before moving on to power Reaper full time. The build was always designed to be a heal condition tank for WvW roaming but, it wasn't much of a tank most times. It just had a lot of health and an acceptable amount of heal conversion from Parasitic Contagion and Last Rites.

Recently, and I mean like last night recent, I was tinkering with ideas related to my old favorite build. What I landed on was a Blood Magic, Spite, Curses build with Signets of Suffering, Signet of Vampirism and Signet of the Locust. I had the same goal for it to be an absurdly tanky condition monster and ended up with something much stronger than my old build primarily thanks to the Signets.

With a mixture of Trailblazer and Settler + the healing power from Blood Magic and conversion from PC, I was literally able to facetank 3 players for a solid 5 minutes just rotating through my Shroud, condition application and Signet heals. I went down to about 5% health and shot back up to 90% in a few seconds at times.

With a little healing power and enough targets to hit, Signet of the Locust is extremely strong. I agree with you and think it's fine as is.

Did you fight 3 other bunkers? ;-) I mean 1v3 over 5 minutes is impossible if these 3 builds are at least bruiser builds. But well, it's WvW. I've seens dozens of neverending 3v1 fights of players of my server while I could kill that guy in less than 10 seconds on my own.

There is an unspoken rule in WvW: When you can sustain (not run away and re-engage!) or even win a 1vX, your opponents suck at the game! That's why I will never applaude to "outnumbered videos" posted in the internet.

Core necro can be surprisingly tanky because unlike the elite specs he can invest in 2 defensive traitlines and still do a decent amout of damage. But it can not sustain a 1v3 against decent opponents. No spec can! That's one of the few positive things I can say about the balance state of the game: it's not THAT messed up!

@Obtena.7952 said:It's pretty hard to complain about a skill that can heal you for that much and damage targets around you. 30 seconds is a bit long in the tooth but I'm thinking it couldn't be lowered without some other adjustment, like fewer targets or less effect. Always hard to balance these AOE skills.

No, its pretty easy:

The skill is garbage.

There, change my mind. And no AOEs arent hard to balance unless youre lazy. Shouts have multi-level scalling and since 2014 poeple pointed out necro needs more consistency instead of balancing for the dream case scenario.

The skill is just too situational for most people which is why its not used.Its actually fine though imo.

@"Dadnir.5038" said:I don't want to play the devil advocate but 7500 potential heal with a 3/4 cast time and 30 second CD already put a lot of "proper" healing skills to shame. If you add to that the damage and the passive swiftness effect, the signet is borderline OP. (especially since it's not a healing skill)

Now, Yes, like most necro skill it lack QoL. Yes, like most necro skills it would be awesome if it could get a faster cast time and/or a lower CD. But, would it be worth the trad? ANet isn't known to give QoL without taking an arm in compensation. ANet is more known to pile up useless effects on a single skill until it become OP when the stars align. ANet like to keep up the frustration while still giving the feel that they buff professions, and, most likely, if they were to "buff" signet of locust, they wouldn't even begin to start reducing it's cast time. More likely they'd end up adding a few second of regen or, maybe, fury/might on top of the active effect.

That doesn't even factor in signet of suffering CD reduction potentially bringing it down to a 14 second CD. 180 and 150-450 bonus healing power with SoS/blood means it's actually a 8.5k to 9.4k with zero healing power from gear on a 14-30 second CD. That's insane when it's not even a #6 ability. You don't need to be 1v5 on this. Illusions, pets etc can also proc the extra hits.

Main reason I haven't tried crusader spite/blood/(reaper, scourge or SR) build is because I'm still bitter about the change to SoS and I miss the corrupts on signets. Also not a huge fan of playing bunker builds regardless of what class. However, I cant help but think about a traited dagger 2/SoS/bunker build and think it's crazy OP sustain on the base class despite signets being a disjointed mess now. Realistically, it's probably not OP but hypothetically it's crazy to balance with that in mind.

Personally I think signets need a source of stability. Without corrupts on SoS, any necro build going bunker/sustain signets isn't going to bring as much of the most important thing necros can do in PvP right now. That way necro picks corrupts but requires a baby sitter or signets to solo bunker/support themselves. Locust could maybe use a qol change to have a bigger heal vs 1 target but a lot less for the additional targets like the shout trait.

@Zero.3871 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Zero.3871 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:It's pretty hard to complain about a skill that can heal you for that much and damage targets around you. 30 seconds is a bit long in the tooth but I'm thinking it couldn't be lowered without some other adjustment, like fewer targets or less effect. Always hard to balance these AOE skills.

It's never a jackpot in the situation you describe; I could describe situations where it is. Nevertheless, it's more about it's potential, which is always the case with skills that scale with AOE. You can always fashion scenarios to show how garbage something is. That doesn't make them insufficient or bad skills. The fact remains that as long as this has the potential Anet has given it, it's really unlikely it will get changed because of an "it's underpowered" argument.

In fact, I would argue it's leaning into that category of Epidemic; Epidemic got a nerf because it's potential for abuse was high. By itself, from a single player, it was OK ... put it in a team of necros and it was ridiculous OP. The same applies here; it has the potential to be better than most heal skills, and I think that's enough to get negative attention from the devs.

Again, AOE skills ... very hard to balance.

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Zero.3871 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Zero.3871 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:It's pretty hard to complain about a skill that can heal you for that much and damage targets around you. 30 seconds is a bit long in the tooth but I'm thinking it couldn't be lowered without some other adjustment, like fewer targets or less effect. Always hard to balance these AOE skills.

the Scenario i gave you is the reality in 99% of fights. thats the reason no one is playing that skill. it is also easy to balance that stuff, there are several ways:

• give it a base heal and reduce number of Targets you can Siphon life from.
• increase Siphon of life from each target while reducing number of Targets the skill can hit.
• add weakness/blind to that signet to mitigate the dmg income.
• increase range so you can use it from a better Position without getting too much dmg.
• ...

non of these would increase the potential max dmg or heal from that skill. the Point is finally, what is the gain of a skill? atm you get more dmg while using it than you get heal from it (thats fact, otherwise every necro would Play this). so the gain from that skill is bad. you can now give it a better upscaling for heal per target so its more useful in 1v1 or 2v2 fights while reducing number of Targets to have the same or less max heal from that skill like before. optimize usage by decreasing casttimes or increasing range of that skill or trying to decrease potential Incoming dmg with effects to make this skill useful. a lot of Options, non of These are hard to realize.

@Zero.3871 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Zero.3871 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Zero.3871 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:It's pretty hard to complain about a skill that can heal you for that much and damage targets around you. 30 seconds is a bit long in the tooth but I'm thinking it couldn't be lowered without some other adjustment, like fewer targets or less effect. Always hard to balance these AOE skills.

• give it a base heal and reduce number of Targets you can Siphon life from.
• increase Siphon of life from each target while reducing number of Targets the skill can hit.
• add weakness/blind to that signet to mitigate the dmg income.
• increase range so you can use it from a better Position without getting too much dmg.
• ...

The gain of that peculiar skill is:Passive: Movement speed and 180 healing power when traited.Active: Damage on up to 5 targets in a 600 radius and healing based on the number of target hit. The damage part can crit and proc "on hit" effect while the healing component have a nice scaling with healing power putting you at more than 2k4 heal per hit with an healing amulet.

Yes, on a 1v1 it's not impressive, like epidemic is just plain useless in 1v1. But as soon as you face more target (even in 1v2 or 2v2, you are already at 3k heal which is already better than the mesmer mantra) the healing component shot throught the roof and make this skill as effective as a proper heal skill which mean that it's like sloting a second heal skill. The trait can even cut substantially the cool down of the skill to half which is huge.

Now, yeah, it's not a duellist skill, just like epidemic is not a duellist skill. But even in a duel the heal can be seen as quite high granted the fact that the skill already have a nice additionnal passive effect when off CD. The skill need neither an increase in range nor a cast time decrease, the skill is by itself full of potential even if it is a chore to use it. I doubt that there is a single signet somewhere in this game with more potential than this one. There are skills on the necromancer that need to be better a lot more than this skill need it.

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Zero.3871 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Zero.3871 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Zero.3871 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:It's pretty hard to complain about a skill that can heal you for that much and damage targets around you. 30 seconds is a bit long in the tooth but I'm thinking it couldn't be lowered without some other adjustment, like fewer targets or less effect. Always hard to balance these AOE skills.

• give it a base heal and reduce number of Targets you can Siphon life from.
• increase Siphon of life from each target while reducing number of Targets the skill can hit.
• add weakness/blind to that signet to mitigate the dmg income.
• increase range so you can use it from a better Position without getting too much dmg.
• ...

Lol this back and forthI want to give some input Coming from some one who often duels with signet builds on necro on the current meta (all ive been using for 1v1's for the past few months)

Reasons why this signet is actually goodMost necro abilities scale pretty hard off that little splash of 180 healing power not to mention throwing a good healing rune and blood magic (last rights passive ontop of it) and you can get good chunk worth of healing power (usually between 450-550 at 100% hp) without having to use a healing power amulet or armor stats. On active its a nice free splash heal (even only on 1 target) + free chip damage even on targets that are in stealth or kiting

The reason why people dont use itIts situational to get the most out of it and because of that fact its potential is not high in most situations in the current meta of the game. Its risky and you have to build around it to make the biggest bang for your buck. Generally the skill is not bad and if you build around it (to mostly benefit from the healing power) it can actually be ok in a 1v1. But usually you build your amulet or stats and traits before you pick your utility not the other way around.

The top 3 reasons why people dont use this signet or usually any other signet

• Signets in general dont fit well in to the current meta builds for free. (except plague signet)
• The second biggest reason is that you have to build around using signets and know how to play using them as it requires a different play style that most people don't like or often screw up (to which they then blame the signets being too bad.) Or they dont see the time worth investing in trying to learn how to make them work because they know they have better tools that already work with less effort.
• The biggest reason though, there are just better tools in your kit options for a wider range of situations for the current meta builds.

In short the skill is fine as is. It needs nothing more or less. The current meta just does not suit it well for most situations & its not worth taking if you don't commit to building around it.

It is hard for me to complain about SotL. It has to be one of the most popular utilities.

@Zero.3871 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Zero.3871 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Zero.3871 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:It's pretty hard to complain about a skill that can heal you for that much and damage targets around you. 30 seconds is a bit long in the tooth but I'm thinking it couldn't be lowered without some other adjustment, like fewer targets or less effect. Always hard to balance these AOE skills.

• give it a base heal and reduce number of Targets you can Siphon life from.
• increase Siphon of life from each target while reducing number of Targets the skill can hit.
• add weakness/blind to that signet to mitigate the dmg income.
• increase range so you can use it from a better Position without getting too much dmg.
• ...

Really? That's a bold and inconclusive statement and it contradicts the experience of other people providing insight on this thread. Frankly, it doesn't change anything I've said. It's about potential, not about what you think 99% of fights do. Sure there are lots of ways we can think of to reduce the impact of AOE skills. That doesn't change the fact that AOE skills are harder to balance than single target ones.

In fact, it seems to me that you're agreeing with me with lots of argument thrown in: I said in my first post there would have to be some parts of the skill adjusted downward to compensate for the high scaling of an AOE skill like this and you're telling us how that would be done. Thanks.

@DuckDuckBOOM.4097 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:I don't want to play the devil advocate but 7500 potential heal with a 3/4 cast time and 30 second CD already put a lot of "proper" healing skills to shame. If you add to that the damage and the passive swiftness effect, the signet is borderline OP. (especially since it's not a healing skill)

Now, Yes, like most necro skill it lack QoL. Yes, like most necro skills it would be awesome if it could get a faster cast time and/or a lower CD. But, would it be worth the trad? ANet isn't known to give QoL without taking an arm in compensation. ANet is more known to pile up useless effects on a single skill until it become OP when the stars align. ANet like to keep up the frustration while still giving the feel that they buff professions, and, most likely, if they were to "buff" signet of locust, they wouldn't even begin to start reducing it's cast time. More likely they'd end up adding a few second of regen or, maybe, fury/might on top of the active effect.

Still doesn't help you against most professions that will just oneshot you.

@Nimon.7840 said:

@DuckDuckBOOM.4097 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:I don't want to play the devil advocate but 7500 potential heal with a 3/4 cast time and 30 second CD already put a lot of "proper" healing skills to shame. If you add to that the damage and the passive swiftness effect, the signet is borderline OP. (especially since it's not a healing skill)

Now, Yes, like most necro skill it lack QoL. Yes, like most necro skills it would be awesome if it could get a faster cast time and/or a lower CD. But, would it be worth the trad? ANet isn't known to give QoL without taking an arm in compensation. ANet is more known to pile up useless effects on a single skill until it become OP when the stars align. ANet like to keep up the frustration while still giving the feel that they buff professions, and, most likely, if they were to "buff" signet of locust, they wouldn't even begin to start reducing it's cast time. More likely they'd end up adding a few second of regen or, maybe, fury/might on top of the active effect.

Not sure where you're going with that one. No one is going to make a case for buffing ANY skill because it doesn't prevent someone from being one-shotted. There is no reason in justifying nullifying broken mechanics ... with even MORE broken ones.

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@DuckDuckBOOM.4097 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:I don't want to play the devil advocate but 7500 potential heal with a 3/4 cast time and 30 second CD already put a lot of "proper" healing skills to shame. If you add to that the damage and the passive swiftness effect, the signet is borderline OP. (especially since it's not a healing skill)

Now, Yes, like most necro skill it lack QoL. Yes, like most necro skills it would be awesome if it could get a faster cast time and/or a lower CD. But, would it be worth the trad? ANet isn't known to give QoL without taking an arm in compensation. ANet is more known to pile up useless effects on a single skill until it become OP when the stars align. ANet like to keep up the frustration while still giving the feel that they buff professions, and, most likely, if they were to "buff" signet of locust, they wouldn't even begin to start reducing it's cast time. More likely they'd end up adding a few second of regen or, maybe, fury/might on top of the active effect.

To be fair, skills like endure pain, signet of stone etc nullify those burst if timed well and I wouldn't call them broken. There are even two heal skills (warrior and herald)that negate all damage.

However, this has nothing to do with how much sol heals for. It's a 25% passive move speed with traited passive 180 healing power and a burst heal that puts a lot of primary #6 heal skills to shame when traited. There is no need to power creep an invuln into it.

@DuckDuckBOOM.4097 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@DuckDuckBOOM.4097 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:I don't want to play the devil advocate but 7500 potential heal with a 3/4 cast time and 30 second CD already put a lot of "proper" healing skills to shame. If you add to that the damage and the passive swiftness effect, the signet is borderline OP. (especially since it's not a healing skill)

Now, Yes, like most necro skill it lack QoL. Yes, like most necro skills it would be awesome if it could get a faster cast time and/or a lower CD. But, would it be worth the trad? ANet isn't known to give QoL without taking an arm in compensation. ANet is more known to pile up useless effects on a single skill until it become OP when the stars align. ANet like to keep up the frustration while still giving the feel that they buff professions, and, most likely, if they were to "buff" signet of locust, they wouldn't even begin to start reducing it's cast time. More likely they'd end up adding a few second of regen or, maybe, fury/might on top of the active effect.

Not saying that it needs an invuln.But consider this:I think that traiting signets on necro is a huge waste. Why? Well those traited bonuses are way too little.Instead, you can get 20% more damage or (even after the damage nerf) a very good skill that corrupts up to 4 boons to conditions and gives insane amounts of retaliation.

Also, signets don't give their passives while on cd.So you loose 25 movespeed.And while playing with the signet, you don't want to use swiftness skills, as they overwrite the signet, by giving 33 movespeed.So the passive gets extremely useless while having swiftness. Sure swiftness can get corrupted, but that's most likely by another necro, where you don't need as much movement as you need it against other classes. Also 25 is pretty bad if you compare it to other classes that can give themselves perma-swiftness.

Next up the active:Even though it heals a lot against 5 targets, it's still bad.Why?Here's why: in a 1v1 situation it's only 1500 heal, that's pretty low. Guess it's okayish, because it's in addition to the heal skill. But taking a utility that just gives 1500 heal and nothing else, is pretty dumb I think.And against many targets: well they should be focussing the necromancer, so you shouldn't have enough time to actually cast the signet, without getting interrupted. Even if it could potentially heal for a lot, it's still a wasted slot, especially with the powercreep happening nowadays.

That was from a PvP perspective.

Guess in pve it's fine. Cause enemies are way more predictable. But even there,... It's interesting for people, that don't know how or when to dodge, or for some really cheesy tactics to solo some mobs. But outside of this very niche, it's pretty much useless I think.Movespeed isn't needed because of mounts