Is Thief spent?

Serious topic. Thief over the years feels like it's be squished and dried out into something it shouldn't be. Our presence isn't really meaningful anymore in the modes of play. Plus the identity crisis is huge for a profession with the implied notion of a solo methodical yet adaptable roguish-type that struggles to fill those shoes anymore. In PvE other professions can outdamage a straight Power thief with ease. In PvP we've been trapped into the +1/decap role to where dueling or fighting alone is impractical. In WvW you lack the tools to be reliable or substantially useful in groups/zergs though mitigated somewhat if playing DE. Outside of groups the only alternative is once again being there strictly for decaps and scouting. Not exactly a rewarding 'playstyle' just being there just to disrupt the backlines where the efficacy of that in itself is debatable. Ganks in WvW are a joke as well because the maps are so wide open people will see you coming from a mile away giving them ample time to prep, run, or call for help. On the whole it seems you can accomplish the desired goals using other professions but with greater ease and success rate.

So what happened? Where's the actual deception and dirty fighting behind thief? -

A little side note, at least half of our utility skills are dead. All of the traps along with a mix of signets, tricks, and deceptions are so bad and ineffective they will never see the light of day. Sure, this is inevitable for some abilities to outshine others but these are literally dirt in terms of usefulness. At the very least make them baseline and stick them on the F-keys next to steal so we can pretend we might use them.

I play S/D, varying between acro and DD with a build pretty much similar to what is considered meta and honestly I feel like it's pretty balanced. In PvE I might not be doing a ton of damage since I don't swap my build out for anything less than a raid, but I've never received any complaints or kicks for it. In WvW I definitely have some uphill fights that can be borderline unreasonable, but most of the time I have the tools I need to sustain. From what I've seen, the problem most thieves face is running full gank and lacking the kit to stay in a fight after they burst. This is why the average thief is so lackluster in anything other than 1v1s and very small group fights.

Also as an aside, most of the signets, tricks, and deceptions are very useful to have depending on build. Saying they're dirt just because they might not align with your play style is a bit of an exaggeration.

@Warkind.6745 said:I play S/D, varying between acro and DD with a build pretty much similar to what is considered meta and honestly I feel like it's pretty balanced. In PvE I might not be doing a ton of damage since I don't swap my build out for anything less than a raid, but I've never received any complaints or kicks for it. In WvW I definitely have some uphill fights that can be borderline unreasonable, but most of the time I have the tools I need to sustain. From what I've seen, the problem most thieves face is running full gank and lacking the kit to stay in a fight after they burst. This is why the average thief is so lackluster in anything other than 1v1s and very small group fights.

Also as an aside, most of the signets, tricks, and deceptions are very useful to have depending on build. Saying they're dirt just because they might not align with your play style is a bit of an exaggeration.

I play the meta sd build. You really have to go back and forth and back and forth to kill your opponent. If you get hit 2-3 times you are basically dead since every other class either does some insane 4-7 k damage or massive Condi that will passively kill you.

In pvp the term +1 and decap for thief is straight up stuipd. +1 really just means your damage is so low you cant kill any some one with out help. A mesmer is basically a better thief than a thief. It can just portal back and deal massive damage aoe too. Finish a fight in seconds from stealth.

In wvw why do core when you can just go deadeye pew pew.

To know the difference I regularly play other classes. The other classes are just so much easier to play. It's not even funny.

Yes you can be good at this and have this attitude. Yeah thief works. Yeah it works but it works when you have to have a much higher skill level than your opponent to make it work.

I made a Condi mes.Watched a YouTube vid. Literally memerized the buttons to press. In 3 days I had a 8/10 win ratio and jumped to another league.

A mesmer can stealth one shot u and be instantly be on another node at the same time. You can have 4 teleports 3 stealths 2 distortion/invuns. Mutiple clones. Cast while dodging.

The Condi I deal with mes is so massive any thief that just tried to kill me basically died passively. All I had to do was make the clones n stealth after my burst.

Don't get me started on every class.

It's really unparallel in that every class does so much more massive damage in more time and has a higher sustain.

Op is right. It's really is just dirt. If you can't see that you need to go on a other class and see how much easier it is to play something else and win with far less thinking and effort.

Just play mesmer. Mesmer is a better thief than thief. It's literally 10 times easier and you will feel good when you basically wipe every one 1v1 and even 1v2+ outnumbered. U have the mobility, the damage, the evade, the stealth the invun. Best part is. You can start owning people esp thieves in less than a day.

Keep your thieve for funsies but just know you are playing handicapped.

@TorQ.7041 said:

@"Warkind.6745" said:I play S/D, varying between acro and DD with a build pretty much similar to what is considered meta and honestly I feel like it's pretty balanced. In PvE I might not be doing a ton of damage since I don't swap my build out for anything less than a raid, but I've never received any complaints or kicks for it. In WvW I definitely have some uphill fights that can be borderline unreasonable, but most of the time I have the tools I need to sustain. From what I've seen, the problem most thieves face is running full gank and lacking the kit to stay in a fight after they burst. This is why the average thief is so lackluster in anything other than 1v1s and very small group fights.

Also as an aside, most of the signets, tricks, and deceptions are very useful to have depending on build. Saying they're dirt just because they might not align with your play style is a bit of an exaggeration.

That's why S/D has access to so many evades. You're not supposed to be eating anything that does 7k damage; it's hard, yeah, but that's the build's damage mitigation. And honestly, outside of a situation where they get the jump on you, rifle deadeyes are pathetically easy to kill. S/D has so much immobilize and chase that you can kill them before they can stealth if you're fast enough. In group situations you can just pick them off with prejudice. Once again, the problem with bringing full gank.

And yes, condi mirage is a pain to fight for most classes without truly exceptional cleanse, so that's not really exclusive to thief. You could compare just about any class to that and say "look how easy it is, this class is dirt."

@Warkind.6745 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:

@Warkind.6745 said:I play S/D, varying between acro and DD with a build pretty much similar to what is considered meta and honestly I feel like it's pretty balanced. In PvE I might not be doing a ton of damage since I don't swap my build out for anything less than a raid, but I've never received any complaints or kicks for it. In WvW I definitely have some uphill fights that can be borderline unreasonable, but most of the time I have the tools I need to sustain. From what I've seen, the problem most thieves face is running full gank and lacking the kit to stay in a fight after they burst. This is why the average thief is so lackluster in anything other than 1v1s and very small group fights.

Also as an aside, most of the signets, tricks, and deceptions are very useful to have depending on build. Saying they're dirt just because they might not align with your play style is a bit of an exaggeration.

Not really. If u get to them before stealth. There is jauntx3 blink distortion. EZ.

U have high evade sure. U can sword back out. But if ur skills are recharging so are theirs. It just takes far longer and is far harder for u to kill them than for any other class to kill you.

You couldn't even be bothered to read enough to realize I was talking about deadeye in the first paragraph before replying.

@Warkind.6745 said:You couldn't even be bothered to read enough to realize I was talking about deadeye in the first paragraph before replying.

Nope I really couldnt. Your original comment was about core thief and high evades.then you wrote about deadeyes being easy to kill with s/d in wvw. Basically comments all over the place.

The original comment from the op to my understanding has nothing to do with deadeye but core thief.

Actually deadeye can perma stealth and backstab you in wvw. No amount of anything can save u basically on that. So no comment on that.maybe u have 1 instant reflexes but that won't recharge fast enough for the second power signet deadeye backstab.

To be honest, I think you have to have more than one build and change according to what you meet to do well on thief these days. I have sets for both tank and glass power builds, along with condi and hybrid gear, and I use what works in a given matchup depending on what's giving me trouble.

The thief is basically just a class that one should not "main" unless he is a masochist.

It is not really "spent" but it does not have any place in a fair ground fighting. Which is at the end of the day is what name "thief" implies I guess. And by the look of what Anet did through the years it seems it is exactly what they want (they repeatedly took away fair fighting capabilities but kept intact / buffed gimmicks that allow to drop paper/damaged/fleeing opponents).

I think Anet thinking is that everyone has several toons for WvW/PVP and can simply choose something else when he wants to go tet-a-tet with others rather then stabbing them from the back when they are already at some troubles.

Thief is fine, it is players that can't make it work. Atm you have all weaponsets except D/d have its spec in the meta.

@"dDuff.3860" said:Thief is fine, it is players that can't make it work. Atm you have all weaponsets except D/d have its spec in the meta.

Surely highly skill dudes can do well agains average and very well agains bads, but it hardly proves anything and not what one calls "make it work". "Make it work" is when this guy gets at least a fair 50/50 chances agains equally good guys on other classes.

The latter I highly doubt as:

1) I'm not very good player but I have 6 toons fully geared and my thief (S/D+Staff DD) is by far the weakest of them when it comes to fighting (other profs. also not on meta builds btw, for example, Spellbreaker is D/A+Rifle did not see anyone else running that either). That is surely has personal bias in it but it is a fact.

2) And that is what I find more objective. I fought different roamers 1v1 but only in matchaps thief vs other_profession I ever felt completely hopeless to stand any chance.

Thief is fine in pve where deadeye d/d is in a good spot but it's sad that anet nerfed dagger to nerf deadeye as it impact core build. D/D playstyle was a thing back in dongeon time.

@Riko.9214 how can you feel completely hopeless to stand any chance against other prof while playing s/d wich is a very good set for pvp? And staff as a pvp is slow so if you lack skill gl

@Warkind.6745 said:And honestly, outside of a situation where they get the jump on you, rifle deadeyes are pathetically easy to kill. S/D has so much immobilize and chase that you can kill them before they can stealth if you're fast enough. In group situations you can just pick them off with prejudice. Once again, the problem with bringing full gank.

I don't even play Shadow Arts on my DE and I don't think I've ever lost to a S/D Thief in a duel in WvW. And even when they attempt to gank while I'm preoccupied with another opponent they are quite easy to overcome. Especially Daredevil S/D, since they don't have Instant Reflexes to prolong their defeat by a couple seconds. I'm not sure if you mean sPvP or not, but if you are referring to WvW then you are certainly fighting some wobbly potato DEs. xD

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:To be honest, I think you have to have more than one build and change according to what you meet to do well on thief these days. I have sets for both tank and glass power builds, along with condi and hybrid gear, and I use what works in a given matchup depending on what's giving me trouble.

Yes to this. I got multiple builds each having strengths and weaknesses and each being able to win an encounter another might not. Quite frankly the suggestion often made that skill should be the ONLY factor regarding the outcome of a given outcome is erroneus. Were that the case there one be only one build and one profession to rule all. The build is likley the most important factor in any given encounter. Just as a player with hi-end skill can make a bad build look good a player of lower skill can do better in a good build that suits the suits the given encounter.

The largest problem I have is re-training my gameplay when I switch up builds. I had not played staff/d/p DD for some time and pulled it out and was awful having to retrain as to which skills to use when :)

@Turk.5460 said:

@Warkind.6745 said:And honestly, outside of a situation where they get the jump on you, rifle deadeyes are pathetically easy to kill. S/D has so much immobilize and chase that you can kill them before they can stealth if you're fast enough. In group situations you can just pick them off with prejudice. Once again, the problem with bringing full gank.

I do mean WvW. It's not an easy fight if you don't get the jump on them or catch them in between stealth, but deadeyes do go down in a couple of hits. FS+mug alone is enough to proc panic strike.

Just because these fights aren't easy doesn't mean you don't have the tools to finish them. I'd rather overcome these problems than throw my hands up and say that my class is garbage.

@Warkind.6745 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Warkind.6745 said:And honestly, outside of a situation where they get the jump on you, rifle deadeyes are pathetically easy to kill. S/D has so much immobilize and chase that you can kill them before they can stealth if you're fast enough. In group situations you can just pick them off with prejudice. Once again, the problem with bringing full gank.

There is no way your Mug + FS is doing 8k damage, and that's being generous for Panic Strike vs. DE. Many permastealth DE's are Valk, meaning they have 21khp. If they're not permastealth then they most likely have Marauder which is 17.5khp. I have Durability Runes, Marauder, and some Wanderer's with 19khp. You're not going to deal 9.5k damage to me with a Mug and a FS. Though my Mug and a Skirmisher's shot might actually proc panic strike on you (2.5k Mug, 4.5k Skirmisher's Shot, 1k Air Sigil).

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy S/D (core and DrD) as well as D/P DrD, and I think they are both quite effective in a variety of different situations. I'm just pointing out that it isn't as easy as you are making it out to be against any competent player piloting a DE.

@Warkind.6745 said:From what I've seen, the problem most thieves face is running full gank and lacking the kit to stay in a fight after they burst. This is why the average thief is so lackluster in anything other than 1v1s and very small group fights.

^ this

@Gandrogh.1530 said:Thief is fine in pve where deadeye d/d is in a good spot but it's sad that anet nerfed dagger to nerf deadeye as it impact core build. D/D playstyle was a thing back in dongeon time.

@"Riko.9214" how can you feel completely hopeless to stand any chance against other prof while playing s/d wich is a very good set for pvp? And staff as a pvp is slow so if you lack skill gl

it is "very good" for what thief has, but comparing to what other classes have it is not.

Since the nerf in March it has 0 abilities capable of doing high damage in a single strike (2 and above coefficient). LS used to be but it is no more, not to mention 1st part of LS can be fullcountered by reaction, simply lol might as well delete it when facing SB.

On top of that most of the thief traits are nerfed to dirt and give 10% damage and below while other classes fart out 20% left and right on top of easy 20+ might.

Should I talk about stability, oh wait there is none any more....

Farting out multiple invulns? Oh thief has 2 sec on century long cd that is not suitable for DD build anyhow.

Oh eyah DD has 1 more dodge PER BATTLE, yeah that is strong, that is how you win!

Again good players will "make it work" vs average but it is hardly representative.

@TorQ.7041 said:

@Warkind.6745 said:I play S/D, varying between acro and DD with a build pretty much similar to what is considered meta and honestly I feel like it's pretty balanced. In PvE I might not be doing a ton of damage since I don't swap my build out for anything less than a raid, but I've never received any complaints or kicks for it. In WvW I definitely have some uphill fights that can be borderline unreasonable, but most of the time I have the tools I need to sustain. From what I've seen, the problem most thieves face is running full gank and lacking the kit to stay in a fight after they burst. This is why the average thief is so lackluster in anything other than 1v1s and very small group fights.

Also as an aside, most of the signets, tricks, and deceptions are very useful to have depending on build. Saying they're dirt just because they might not align with your play style is a bit of an exaggeration.

• to all u said
• i also spent about 15h on learning power mirage Just to say its much better than thief. I got about 600h on thief :/ talking about spvp. In wvw thief is fine, but u rly need to be much better than ur opponents :/

I dont consider myself a good thief. And i am maybe running outdated build. But i can get a good results in pvp = gold 3ishI know it is hard to paly thief against everything. I strugle every day. And if i wont down player with only 235 life left i know he was bad. Yes if you are good at teef you can get results. But if you put skilled thief vs equally skilled bassically any other class. Thief wont survive.We are weak.You can outsmart other ppl who maybe dont encounter thieves often. You could crush those who have problems fighting thief. And you can be great DPS support when you drop poison fields and caltrops and traps and stuff when you fight on middle or Bell at Revenge of Carpricorn. But thief is really not what it used to be.It used to be much better. A theif was someone you didnt want to meet in PVP condi SA trapper was a thing you could troll ppl with for hours watching them die in despret attempt to run away from you.These days ppl are hunting thieves. They are even laughing at you when they manage to kill you like Change class lol teef so weakI saw that. Yea ppl did it to me. And yea sometimes i agree with themCuz thief is not what it used to be. And it is hard to play it.We could use a serious helping hand here

@Turk.5460 said:

@Warkind.6745 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Warkind.6745 said:And honestly, outside of a situation where they get the jump on you, rifle deadeyes are pathetically easy to kill. S/D has so much immobilize and chase that you can kill them before they can stealth if you're fast enough. In group situations you can just pick them off with prejudice. Once again, the problem with bringing full gank.

I think your mistake is assuming that every deadeye runs the same build as you. The ones I encounter almost always run very fragile because they want fast kills.

And I'm not saying it's easy. They can mitigate your damage and after that it's pretty difficult to catch them again with your cool downs off alignment; I'm just saying they're not the invulnerable powerhouse that people are making them out to be. Saying go deadeye or bust is a disservice to thief as a whole.

Thief is still meta. With a good team it shines. With a bad team it loses a lot of value, yet it still can have carry potential in the right hands.

@Warkind.6745 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Warkind.6745 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Warkind.6745 said:And honestly, outside of a situation where they get the jump on you, rifle deadeyes are pathetically easy to kill. S/D has so much immobilize and chase that you can kill them before they can stealth if you're fast enough. In group situations you can just pick them off with prejudice. Once again, the problem with bringing full gank.

i also run mostly into the fragile sort and i think that there are not too many deadeyes that do actually run a valk build, yet many of the forum QQ could be mainly caused by those few, i know that i have caused several 'deadeye OP' stories here.. sadly most are not specific enough. If i am right that its caused by those few than changing or replacing hidden killer would already solve most complains. but most suggestions simply want to make the spec more clunky by adding cooldowns and diminishing returns everywhere wich most likely will cause noone to play it anymore. i would aswell play it in berserks if i had to, just right now its kinda stupid not to use valk.

@Safandula.8723 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:

@Warkind.6745 said:I play S/D, varying between acro and DD with a build pretty much similar to what is considered meta and honestly I feel like it's pretty balanced. In PvE I might not be doing a ton of damage since I don't swap my build out for anything less than a raid, but I've never received any complaints or kicks for it. In WvW I definitely have some uphill fights that can be borderline unreasonable, but most of the time I have the tools I need to sustain. From what I've seen, the problem most thieves face is running full gank and lacking the kit to stay in a fight after they burst. This is why the average thief is so lackluster in anything other than 1v1s and very small group fights.

Also as an aside, most of the signets, tricks, and deceptions are very useful to have depending on build. Saying they're dirt just because they might not align with your play style is a bit of an exaggeration.

• to all u said
• i also spent about 15h on learning power mirage Just to say its much better than thief. I got about 600h on thief :/ talking about spvp. In wvw thief is fine, but u rly need to be much better than ur opponents :/

Sure. Even tho the description of thief was supposedly master at 1v1 combat. They need to revise and change their description. When I signed on to. Rogue assassin class I wanted to feel like an rogue assassin which is what the description implied. Not the I can only stab people from behind since every other class can do that better. A mesmer 1 shot or ranger pew pew can finish much faster than a thief.