Currently Salvation is almost only ever taken for healing builds. For non-healer builds, what would the traitline need in order for you to consider using it? In what ways do you think it could be changed to appeal to a greater variety of builds? Do you feel like it even should? Or do you feel that it should stay niche like it is now? Are the other traitlines too important to ever give one up for Salvation? Perhaps in a Core Revenant build?

I think it should stay focused on support.Maybe I shouldn't say anything since I don't play it but looking from the outside.Two trait changes I just going to toss out there,

*Nourishing Roots: Each condition removed with Purifying Essence restores 1 energy to the revenant.

*Momentary Pacification: When Protective Solace is put in motion with Ventari's Will, it becomes a reflecting smoke field which causes blind to targets it crosses over. Ends 1 second after arriving at target location.

• Energy Expulsion's blast finisher now occurs at the tablet's location instead of the revenant's.

i would change some triat

Momentary Pacification - using an elite skill immobilize targets around it for 2 sec with no fuze.eluding nullification - dodge rolling remove 1 condition around you and blind the area for 5 sec.i would attached tranquil benediction to nourishing routes so around the tablet you gain regen and swiftness and instead of tranquil benediction the healing orbs from staff will blast the area with small healing and dmg if ally or enemy touch them

this changes are not too strong but can help with sustain with blind, with cc via mobilize for burst dmg and for small dmg increase with staff with orbs.

@Justine.6351 said:I think it should stay focused on support.Maybe I shouldn't say anything since I don't play it but looking from the outside.Two trait changes I just going to toss out there,

*Nourishing Roots: Each condition removed with Purifying Essence restores 1 energy to the revenant.

*Momentary Pacification: When Protective Solace is put in motion with Ventari's Will, it becomes a reflecting smoke field which causes blind to targets it crosses over. Ends 1 second after arriving at target location.

• Energy Expulsion's blast finisher now occurs at the tablet's location instead of the revenant's.

Oh no, I am absolutely looking for posts from people that don't play support, such as yourself. I'd like to know what kinds of additions to the traitline would motivate you to consider traiting it, similarly to how you previously specced Corruption deapite playing power dps. I agree that it should stay focused on support, but I think there are still ways to include options that are more applicable to non-support builds, such as condition management, self sustain, improvement of all legends' healing skills, and perhaps a bit of energy management like your idea.

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

@Justine.6351 said:I think it should stay focused on support.Maybe I shouldn't say anything since I don't play it but looking from the outside.Two trait changes I just going to toss out there,

*Nourishing Roots: Each condition removed with Purifying Essence restores 1 energy to the revenant.

*Momentary Pacification: When Protective Solace is put in motion with Ventari's Will, it becomes a reflecting smoke field which causes blind to targets it crosses over. Ends 1 second after arriving at target location.

• Energy Expulsion's blast finisher now occurs at the tablet's location instead of the revenant's.

The corruption line on power idea is actually tied to this discussion. I dropped the concept not because it didn't work, but because simply using a sigil of cleansing + Cleansing Channel was enough. It completely negated the need to run corruption. Now that shiro f2 strips boons, that further split any reason to run corruption.

I don't like the idea of polarizing the builds, legends and traitlines but ultimately that is probably how they are best balanced and best played. Going forward I do believe that changes should keep those 3 items in line instead of trying to blend it.

power > shiro > destructioncondi > mallyx > corruptiontank > jalis > retributionsupport > ventari > salvationutility > invocationall > elite spec

The real variance in how you play it shouldn't be trying to make x traitline viable for all builds but rather make each traitline have enough variance within to make your build/legend/traitline feel customizable. They have done this with rev for the most part. Some traits are bad and others are competing directly with its other 2 counter parts. Those just need to be review/changed/improved.

Salvation trait themes,Power healing (complete)Orbs (incomplete)Blind (incomplete)Tablet (incomplete)

3 of the themes of salvation are just weak and not explored better. Some of the traits are just one-offs and don't really play into any build. They are just dead traits.

I could see Salvation working along with Corruption - conditions manipulation and condition cleanse. I'd love to see some competitive support builds with Mallyx and Ventari.What I'd love to see in Salvation are more ways to control your healing and conditions rather than /only/ dropping healing bombs here and there.Still - I think Salvation should stay 100% support.

@"DonArkanio.6419" said:I could see Salvation working along with Corruption - conditions manipulation and condition cleanse. I'd love to see some competitive support builds with Mallyx and Ventari.What I'd love to see in Salvation are more ways to control your healing and conditions rather than /only/ dropping healing bombs here and there.Still - I think Salvation should stay 100% support.

Have you seen this build then?

Salvation is heavily focused on support and especially on ventari, to make it of use on non support build I think it would need to be a bit more open to other legends and it need a "control" trait at the master tier.

So I suggest to:

• Make Nourishing Roots baseline.
• Move Eluding Nullification to the adept tier to replace Nourishing roots (maybe reduce number of allies cleansed to 3 if it's seen as to strong).
• Replace Eluding nullification by a trait that apply cripple (3s) when you blind a foe (ICD: 10s) and grant expertise based on healing power.
• Modify serene rejuvenation so that it also affect some other legend skills. Maybe making Phase traversal apply vulnerability, make pain absorption apply weakness, inspiring reinforcement grant protection. The main issue of this trait being that it affect a specific legend skill which suck for a minor trait. If it could at least affect all core legends it would make the traitline a lot more open to build diversity.

Yes, I think Salvation should be open to non-healers, maybe in the form of a new grandmaster trait. It could do something simple like make Ventari skills heal the user more than allies, or go completely crazy and just remove the tablet. Ventari utilities would become pbaoe, Ventari's Will would work like Druid's Ancestral Grace, and Energy Expulsion would be a stun break. Call it Inward Perfection.

A few things going over the Salvation specialization that I would change to make it more useful all around for other builds as well as support builds:

T3:*Momentary Pacification : with Shiro already getting a stun, and Ventari the knock back already, I rather this get changed into something different. Either a defensive invasion, or a healing support effect or even greater would be another Energy management effect.

*Natural Abundance: would be nice if this upgraded Staff healing orbs into fragments. Could make Staff more into a main weapon possibly.

*Selfless Amplification: Would be nice if this had a unique heal over time effect unique from Regeneration boon, that could be based on energy pooling or amount healed.

*Serene Rejuvenation: since this is a minor, I rather this minor itself not be something limited to actually having the Centari legend equipped. This is where something like Selfless Amplification should go since it more generation and not legend specific for a minor trait.

T2:*Tranquil Benediction: would like this trait, along side current application, to also reduce energy cost across the board for Staff skills and either increase healing of staff skills, or brand new effect that provides players reason to leave ranged to go melee to heal and support allies. Give us reason to.

*Eluding Nullification: this should be the T3 Minor or something. But in its current form I would like a passive Condition damage reduction on top of the current effect if it remain a T2 Major.

*Invoking Harmony: This is nice, but... problem is due to the limitation of the Revenant Legend mechanics and the lack of choices we have, the only real legend that benefits from this is Ventari. Lets be honest here. And once again we back at the problem of the class in general. If I switch to a different legend other than Ventari, not this trait pretty much become unless until I switch back to Ventari. This here as is could be nice if we had a second support healing legend to go with Ventari. So this needs a secondary effect to make this useful.

*Hardened Foundation: This is a good minor for increasing healing all around in most builds.

T1:*Nourishing Roots: well I would like better radius for tablet skills. That would be a nice way to do it.

*Blinding Truths: good

*Tanquil Balance: once again another problem. Ventari doesnt provide great self healing for this to work and since Ventari is the only real healing Legend, as explained before, this pretty much makes this mostly useless unless you playing something like PvE where all damage can be avoided and predictable. And that sort of gameplay takes you out of fight if you using Staff which there are traits for and just about most of the weapons we have besides Bow/Hammer. Remember Ventari has poor self healing in PvP situations. and is really the only legend that will benefit with this trait.

*Disarming Riposte: this a good general skill. Never tested it but does this also effect non damage abilities like the Elite Tablet skill? if so thats needed, since currently most weapons dont mix well with Ventari Support since the energy is too costly, and Melee Staff pretty much is a no go in terms of support healing.

I've been liking a lot these changes to weapon-related traits to have an use even without the weapon.

Tranquil Benediction could get some some functionality separate from staff. For example, it could make any weapon create additional healing orbs with their first attack.

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:I've been liking a lot these changes to weapon-related traits to have an use even without the weapon.

Tranquil Benediction could get some some functionality separate from staff. For example, it could make any weapon create additional healing orbs with their first attack.

That really wouldn't be useful and wouldn't really push people to use Salvation. Those orbs are really not anything special or fantastic enough for people to want to use a trait slot for it. As a matter of fact, I can't recall a single time I went out of my way to grab them or a teammate took the time to grab them. All things considered, the weapon related traits are fine and keeping them focused on a single weapon or the set of weapons, is the best way to make them useful. The more weapons they are capable of supporting the more likely that the effect itself would be watered down some.

I do think that Salvation could be made useful but that would be less about specific weapons and more about how it impacts your standard abilities. Something that provides synergy between the Legends themselves as opposed to any specific set of weapons.

@Clownmug.8357 said:Yes, I think Salvation should be open to non-healers, maybe in the form of a new grandmaster trait. It could do something simple like make Ventari skills heal the user more than allies, or go completely crazy and just remove the tablet. Ventari utilities would become pbaoe, Ventari's Will would work like Druid's Ancestral Grace, and Energy Expulsion would be a stun break. Call it Inward Perfection.

I think if you were to remove the tablet you would lose some of the thematic flavor that sets Ventari apart from other Legends and healers and gives it this really cool thing to look at as you go about your business.

@Dace.8173 said:

@Clownmug.8357 said:Yes, I think Salvation should be open to non-healers, maybe in the form of a new grandmaster trait. It could do something simple like make Ventari skills heal the user more than allies, or go completely crazy and just remove the tablet. Ventari utilities would become pbaoe, Ventari's Will would work like Druid's Ancestral Grace, and Energy Expulsion would be a stun break. Call it Inward Perfection.

Well I think making the player able to become the tablet would be cool too.

The reason you trait salvation is to obtain the best meme potential!

My serious opinion on this as somebody that makes active use of salvation/ventari in a WvW roaming setting: (obviously very biased)

1. Salvation has to stay primarily support focused. (I'd be okay with it working outside of ventari/heal power investment but it seems extremely unlikely to me.)
2. 1/3rd of the traitline dedicated to mitigation/control. (Blinding Truths is a god tier trait (On Ventari ofc.), i would like to see two traits replace Tranquil Benediction and Momentary Pacification with ones that offer more useful selfish/control/defense benefits.)
3. Increase trait variety. (Merge some healing % traits, introduce replacements more interesting than +X heal effectiveness.)
4. No tablet removing shenanigans. Respect your centaur Gandhi.

I like @Dadnir.5038 's baseline Nourishing Roots. I'd prefer it if it did not compete with Blinding Truths.@Justine.6351 's blinding Protective Solace is nice too, i just don't want more stealth nonsense in the game if i understood the smoke field correctly. +Agree with finisher around tablet instead of player but that's more a Ventari thing.

@Dace.8173 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:I've been liking a lot these changes to weapon-related traits to have an use even without the weapon.

Tranquil Benediction could get some some functionality separate from staff. For example, it could make any weapon create additional healing orbs with their first attack.

That's not a reason not to have the orbs, it's a reason to improve them.Maybe not make them orbs, but projectiles that fly at allies like a whirl. Or just 1 orb that explodes into a healing wave when any ally touches it. Or make them seeds that can be picked right away for quick healing, or leave them alone for a few seconds so they sprout and grow into plants that heal more.

As for weapon-focused traits, they seem nice, but they have the fundamental issues of limiting weapon choices and breaking the build when your weapons are changed, like when you pick a conjured weapon, or when you go underwater.

Instead, they should be slowly changed to move away from working exclusively with a particular weapon, and instead make them change give its effects to apply to the weapon skills (1 to 5), but designing the trait to have a greater synergy with the intended weapon.

Sooner or later Ventari shall work underwater, and when that happens, trident skills could get Regeneration on allies around the enemies as its variable property when attuned to Ventari, and trident should have some benefit from Tranquil Benediction.

@WraithOfStealth.1624 said:The reason you trait salvation is to obtain the best meme potential!

My serious opinion on this as somebody that makes active use of salvation/ventari in a WvW roaming setting: (obviously very biased)

1. Salvation has to stay primarily support focused. (I'd be okay with it working outside of ventari/heal power investment but it seems extremely unlikely to me.)
2. 1/3rd of the traitline dedicated to mitigation/control. (Blinding Truths is a god tier trait (On Ventari ofc.), i would like to see two traits replace Tranquil Benediction and Momentary Pacification with ones that offer more useful selfish/control/defense benefits.)
3. Increase trait variety. (Merge some healing % traits, introduce replacements more interesting than +X heal effectiveness.)
4. No tablet removing shenanigans. Respect your centaur Gandhi.

I like @Dadnir.5038 's baseline Nourishing Roots. I'd prefer it if it did not compete with Blinding Truths.@Justine.6351 's blinding Protective Solace is nice too, i just don't want more stealth nonsense in the game if i understood the smoke field correctly. +Agree with finisher around tablet instead of player but that's more a Ventari thing.

More or less it was to reflect out blinding projectiles but also to place supportive stealth at target location when coupled with ventari elite. As its on a support line rather than a dps line it would be more appropriate than stealth gankers.

Nice seeing a lot of ideas floating around! I love the discussion.

@Dace.8173 :
I agree that orbs should be removed (and IMO replaced by a flat heal). Orbs are one of those mechanics--like fragments--that feel outdated for the direction of the game. Having a trait focused on improving them feels like a waste to me because of how niche their use is. A more interesting and widely applicable idea I have for the staff trait is:-Renewing Wave (Staff 4) grants Vigor and Regeneration. When you cleanse a condition, cleanse an additional condition. (Cannot apply more than once per interval per skill used. Interval: 5s. Only works on condition cleanse skills or traits, not transfers or via sigils/runes). That way, other traits and skills would be greatly improved by it: Cleansing Channel now removes 2 conditions on legend swap, Purifying Essence removes 4 conditions AoE, Riposting Shadows removes an additional condition, etc.). Would probably be too strong, but general idea is there. I like the idea of it affecting condition transfers (well, absorptions), but I think it'd make Facet of Nature: Mallyx too strong: max 20 conditions (with DE traited too) transferred to you ever 3s).

@Dadnir.5038 :I also think Nourishing Roots should be baseline. It wouldn't overpower the kit by any means, and would open up some valuable trait space in the traitline.I saw an idea on here about giving Salvation a trait that applies slow when applying blind. I really like this idea (and prefer it to cripple) because if Ventari is all about pacifying the enemy, slow literally slows down their attack speed, making them less effective. Would definitely help its sustain against as well.I also really like your idea of having Serene Rejuvenation affect other legends' skills as a way of opening up the trait to non-healers. I think it'd make it cohesive to have it apply additional boons (not conditions) and be attached to the defensive skills in each legend, so:-Ventari: [Natural Harmony] grants Alacrity. Affects allies.-Jalis: [inspiring Reinforcement] grants Retaliation. Pulses with Stability on the road.-Mallyx: [Pain Absorption] grants Protection. Affects allies.-Shiro: [Riposting Shadows] grants Vigor. Affects self only.

Other opinions:-Natural Abundance could be changed to no longer spawn fragments, but have legend skills apply an instant self-heal instead. Open it up to apply to all legend skills, but have it be more effective for Ventari skills. This would allow an option for reliable self-sustain in any legend. Ventari-only traits dominate the traitline and need to be addressed. This change would follow an example of a good trait, Notoriety. This is the only Shiro trait in Devastation, but it has relevance outside of just Shiro.-Merge one of the healing modifier traits (ideally, Tranquil Balance) with another trait to make room for a revival trait. Revenant is missing one ever since Herald got reworked and is in need of one.-Have a trait reduce heal skill cooldowns by 10%-20%. This would not only help with Ventari's difficulty in highly mobile fights (allowing for more movement), but also give a greater incentive for other builds to trait Salvation.-Make Blinding Truths the minor adept. This would actually be a huge buff to the tree for Ventari players because that way self-sustain doesn't have to come at quite the cost that it does now.-Buff Momentary Pacification. When comparing this skill to one like Ancient Seeds, it is clear how lackluster it is. My personal idea is to reduce the ICD, have it also apply resistance to nearby allies (pacifying your allies from harm), and perhaps applying a blinding or healing light field at the location of the elite.

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:I've been liking a lot these changes to weapon-related traits to have an use even without the weapon.

Tranquil Benediction could get some some functionality separate from staff. For example, it could make any weapon create additional healing orbs with their first attack.

A bunch of orbs is not going to push people to use Salvation and replicating it on other weapons is just pointless. Unless they are super super awesome with this super awesome ridiculous affect people are simply not going to waste their time with them. That's a lot of design work for something that most people don't care about.

Weapon focused traits really aren't a problem. It's not that they seem nice, they actually are nice. It's a great way to improve a weapon. Tieing them to specific weapons allows them to make improvements to individual weapons without having to change the weapon itself. Since they are weapon specific it also allows them to be more powerful than they otherwise would be. You really don't lose any synergy since odds are strong that the specialization and the weapon already work well together, to begin with. Changing the weapon beyond what you already set your build around happens so rarely as to not be an issue. Most professions where this may happen, and it's not many, will already have that take into consideration in the inherent abilities offered by traits. Underwater combat happens so rarely as to not be an issue. I have doubts that Ventari would work underwater and even if it did we don't engage in underwater combat enough to worry about the trident.

People keep trying to change the weapons when the weapons (outside of a lack thereof) are not the core problem (in most cases anyway. Some are weak such as shortbow but fixing shortbow doesn't really address core issues). What would make Ventari and Salvation better is for both to have better syngery with other Legends and speclizations. They need to work better as a team. They don't all have to work with each of them better, for instance Ventari may not need to work better with Shiro but they should work more closely with another Legend, such as Ventari and Jalis for better integration of healing and defense or Ventari and Glint for better integration between healing and boon sharing or Ventari and Mallyx for better integration of boon curruption and taking on conditions. This should be the priority since Revenant is supposed to be Legend swapping. If you create better syngery you'll make the profession stronger as a whole that moves beyond having to pick specific weapons in order to be stronger. From there they can move on to giving some changes to the other weapons so that staff can finally be retired. However, all of that aside, if we want Salvation to move beyond just healing builds it needs better syngery with other Legends.

@Dace.8173 said:

@"DonArkanio.6419" said:I could see Salvation working along with Corruption - conditions manipulation and condition cleanse. I'd love to see some competitive support builds with Mallyx and Ventari.What I'd love to see in Salvation are more ways to control your healing and conditions rather than /only/ dropping healing bombs here and there.Still - I think Salvation should stay 100% support.

Oh my, I haven't. Curious to find if it's actually working. And since it uses Renegade I'm even more curious :oI've always seen non-dmg Revenant builds as something that "controls" the conditions and the overall situation in fight. Not necessarily flat healing , condi cleanse and lots of boons. I'm looking forward to seeing ths kind of gameplay implemented to Ventari and Jalis - heavy damage mitigation, retaliating etc. Something what they've done to Mallyx on Facet of Nature.Ty for showing this one to me!

@DonArkanio.6419 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@DonArkanio.6419 said:I could see Salvation working along with Corruption - conditions manipulation and condition cleanse. I'd love to see some competitive support builds with Mallyx and Ventari.What I'd love to see in Salvation are more ways to control your healing and conditions rather than /only/ dropping healing bombs here and there.Still - I think Salvation should stay 100% support.

Haven't tried the build myself but I would be curious to know if it works.

@Dace.8173 said:

@DonArkanio.6419 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@DonArkanio.6419 said:I could see Salvation working along with Corruption - conditions manipulation and condition cleanse. I'd love to see some competitive support builds with Mallyx and Ventari.What I'd love to see in Salvation are more ways to control your healing and conditions rather than /only/ dropping healing bombs here and there.Still - I think Salvation should stay 100% support.

The Alacrity uptime is nice, but if running Mallyx I do prefer running Herald because of Facet of Nature - Mallyx. Absorbing 10 condis every 3 seconds is pretty nice.

1. Salvation needs a damage modifier of some sort, in order to make up for the damage loss of not taking Invigoration.

2. Salvation needs some sort of energy management in order to make up for the energy loss of not using Invigoration. (Perhaps staff trait?)

Know what? The Staff trait is all that needs to be reworked. Make the trait give a 5% dmg modifier, +5% more when traited, and cause the staff to give a return in energy.

Screw the pacifism theme. They made Staff a melee weapon with cc. Give it SOME sort of offensive capability! Combat medics are cool!!!

I was bored... so I came up with a possible rework.

I believe that Salvation should remain about Healing, Support and Soft CC. Not damage. Choices. ;)

Adept

Disarming Riposte - Cooldown reduced by 5s.

Nourishing Roots - Old = Baseline. Grants nearby allies Vigor on Legendary skill usage (3s, 10s ICD). On Ventari, also replenish 10 Endurance.Blinding Truths - No change.Tranquil Balance - No change.

Master

Hardened Foundation - Gain 2s Protection after dodge rolling. Gain 150 Healing Power while affected by Protection.

Tranquil Benediction - Gain 30 Concentration for 15s when healing an ally (up to 5x). Also gain 100 Concentration while whielding a Staff.Eluding Nullification - Now also additionally removes Chill, Cripple and Immobilize.Invoking Harmony - Additionally, gain a unique buff that heals nearby allies on hit (3 charges, +2 charges when invoking Ventari).

Grandmaster

Selfless Amplification - Switches with Serene Rejuvination. Now grants +10% outgoing healing plus +0.5% per 100 Healing Power.

Serene Rejuvination - Instead of outgoing healing: Gaining Alacrity also increases the duration of other boons affecting you by 2s (5s ICD).Momentary Pacification - Immobilze and blind nearby foes for 2s on dodge (20s ICD). Blinding a foe also Slows them (5s ICD p. Interval)Natural Abundance v1 - Outgoing healing is increased by 15%. Healing skills no longer cost Energy.Natural Abundance v2 - Outgoing healing is increased by 15%. Using an elite skill above 50% Energy grants you 50 Endurance (45s ICD).Natural Abundance v3 - Outgoing healing is increased by 15%. Using a Healing skill reduces your Energy costs by 20% for 10s (20s ICD).

Other changes

Staff 1.3 - Now grants nearby allies 2s of Regeneration and heals for a small amount per target hit. No orbs.Staff 3 - Now also grants yourself 2s of Protection.Staff 4 - Now also grants nearby allies 3s of Vigor.Staff 5 - Now also grants nearby allies 3s of Swiftness.Energy Expulsion - Now leaves behind a Light field instead of creating fragments (2s, 3 pulses, heals up to 5 allies for a small amount).

I don't think Tanquil Balance is good. Ventari is not great for self healing. It's part of the problem that Ventari is terrible in SPvP. As is, it's useless outside predictable combat such as PvE. That's not a good trait design.

Tranquil Benediction concentration doesn't seem like a major benefit to the support Revenants since we don't really have many boons as is unless not using Ventari, and Staff itself in current form isn't beneficial to support when you weigh the pros and cons of being in melee range while trying to provide support through costly tablet skills that are way more valuable than any support that Staff provides.