Introduction

Hi all,This post is to summarize my view on the current WvW Metagame, as well as provide small constructive feedback about both current status of classes and small ideas. Usually I go by The Blue Rangerr, and am an admin at Metabattle.com for their WvW section. I will be aiming to keep all feedback at a realistic level, and maintain current class identities with any proposed changes, and encourage everyone to do the same. Due to continued good feedback on past posts, I have decided to revisit these meta feedback posts to reflect the game state after the Winds of Disenchantment nerf.

The aim of this post is to start some discussion and constructive feedback about the state of the Q4 2018 WvW Metagame. For the purpose of this discussion, I'll be sticking strictly to zerg v zerg builds, but please feel free to add in anything you find relevant to the roaming scene. I will be going on a class-by-class basis, looking at the roles, builds and strengths of each class and how they contribute to group gameplay. Feedback will be divided in to 'practical' (small changes that are realistic and will provide benefit to a fun game style) and 'Idealistic' (changes that are unlikely and large scale, but could diversify the game and create new fun ways to play).

The current metagame has reached, in my opinion, the healthiest state since the release of Path of Fire. Although a lot of this can be attributed directly to the new Winds of Disenchantment, many other class buffs and nerfs have seen a shift that allows more classes to fill DPS and support roles. Despite this, the diversity within a squad is still extremely limited. Better than it was for the rest of Path of Fire is still, unfortunately, is a long way off being an inclusive meta, as Firebrand and Scourge still dominate group play, with Revenant and Chronomancer taking an honorable mention for nearly as much air time. To shift this, some classes would need moderate increases in areas of sustain or damage, whilst the high performers would need to see their supporting abilities toned down. I am always wary of this suggestion, considering that without the Stability a Firebrand provides group play could become extremely favorable to ranged, Revenant and Weaver heavy metas, but it must be said that Firebrand in its current state is doing too many things too well.

Please note, with the vast disparity between game modes, all changes I propose would be WvW specific.

Guardian

Guardian can currently fill numerous roles across all of its difference Specializations. Their ability to bring Stability, as well as a plethora of other boons, condition cleanses, CC and healing make their Firebrand support role mandatory in every group. Aside from this dominant position, Guardian can also be played effectively as a condition focused ranged or melee DPS class, with all 3 Specializations performing this role with unique benefits. All three Specializations again also have power melee DPS roles, and a niche if somewhat underwhelming ranged power DPS option in Dragonhunter. This makes Guardian, even aside from their mandatory position in squads, the most desirable and well rounded class in a zerg situation.

My primary feedback for Guardian is that the Firebrand specialization, in order to bring other supports in to the metagame, needs to be toned down. Due to the mandatory nature of Stability, it is also important that any changes to Firebrand either do not specifically target their ability to supply this boon, unless also pairing the changes with increases to the availability of group Stability across other support Specializations. Instead, my focus is on their 'all rounder' status, paying special attention to the boon uptime and healing accessibly on high boon duration builds. For the sake of clarity, I have split up these changes to specific tomes with the ideas behind the changes listed for each tome. I do not believe the changes I have listed alone would come close to removing Firebrand from a mandatory slot in the metagame, but alongside buffs to some of the underwhelming support options, could see more versatility across the game mode.

1. Practical ChangesTome of ResolveThese changes target the easy access to massive condition cleanses while in this tome, rather than targeting the raw healing values which were already hit in previous patches.

   • Chapter 2: Radiant Recovery - Only cleanse 1 condition
   • Epilogue: Eternal Oasis - Convert 3 conditions to boons. Increase cooldown to 15s.Tome of CourageThese changed would target the projectile hate access of the current metagame to help enable other classes to perform, as well as the ability to 'fire and forget' the pulsing resistance by requiring players to stand in the field to reap the benefits.
   • Chapter 3: Valiant Bulwark - Reduced duration to 3s.
   • Chapter 4: Stalward Stand - Reduced Resistance duration to 0.66s base.
   • Epilogue: Unbroken Lines - Increased cooldown to 15s.

2. Idealistic Changes

   • Require the trait 'Legendary Lore' to receive the various bonuses from Tome 5 skills (Ashes of the Just, Eternal Oasis, Unbroken Lines). Move this trait to Grandmaster over Stoic Demeanor. (Ashes of the Just being the only effect of that skill, it could instead grant 15s of 20% burning duration after using that skill instead of removing the Ashes effect.)
   • Rework Stoic Demeanor, to apply guaranteed slow on your next CC skill after gaining a successful interrupt. Remove internal cooldown.

Necromancer

Necromancer is another extremely versatile class. Their access to AoE boonstrip makes them another mandatory slot in any WvW setup, as the ability to remove or corrupt boons is the fastest and most effective way to kill other groups with supports (which in the current metagame, is everyone). They have access to many powerful builds, most of which are gated behind the Scourge Specialization. Pure condition Scourge, pure power Scourge, hybrid damage Celestial Scourge, support Scourge and hybrid support Scourge builds are all used by various guilds, with Power and Celestial being the two most meta defining builds and the most widely used. Reaper sees a little play for its raw power damage, but is far less safe and easy to play, and tends to get less boonstrips over time than a Scourge thanks to their range and ability to attack in wide areas. Through their Transfusion trait, they also have access to on demand downstate control, which is a strong counter to Winds of Disenchantment and enemy Scourges.

The dominance of Scourge in the metagame rises not from their damage, but simply from their massive amounts of corrupts and strips. The class identity of the Necromancer is heavily influenced by the concept of boon removal, but in terms of healthy WvW environments, Scourge has taken this to an unfortunately high level that can create situations of no counterplay for enemies. Whilst the change to Winds of Disenchantment was a fantastic step away from this boon hate metagame, a small tone down of Scourge would also go a long way towards allowing other DPS roles (specifically melee), who could be enabled by higher protection and Stability uptimes, to join the metagame.

1. Practical Changes

   • Unending Corruption - 10s ICD per activation (can still hit multiple targets with each cast)
   • Spiteful Spirit - Corrupts 1 boon to a condition. Cooldown raised to 15s. Again this helps to lower to the spam and fire and forget nature of the class.
   • Devouring Darkness - Corrupts 2 Boons, cooldown increased to 15s.

2. Idealistic Changes

   • Punishment Skills no longer remove boons aside from Ghastly Breach. This helps to alleviate a lot of the problems with skills that provide huge personal sustain benefits (Sand Flare, Trail of Anguish) also inflicting AoE boonrips. Add the torment and cripple as baseline on the skills rather than as a consequence of boon removal.
   • Re order the boon corruption table to no longer corrupt Stability in to fear. This corrupt alone is one of the biggest 'stopping' factors for melee DPS classes. Not only are they no longer protected from CC, but now they are CCed themselves and need to use their stunbreak. That means that now, without Stability and without a stunbreak, they are extremely vulnerable to other forms of CC with no counterplay available.

Elementalist

Elementalist fills two roles in the current metagame, as a ranged backline damage dealer and as a mid to front line support class. As a backline damage dealer, they are capable of huge burst damage through Meteor Shower, able to take down classes from 100% to 0% easily with a single skill in a large radius. As a support, Tempest is taken for its access to strong CC, as well as a modest amount of healing and condition cleanse, with small access to downstate control. In terms of melee builds there are none that are remotely effective. Core, Weaver and Tempest all have a role to play, but all of these roles center around the use of Staff. Frontline Support Tempests are less common in this metagame than in Heart of Thorns because they do not have access to as much hard CC and can struggle to sustain whilst supporting the group as easily as a Staff Tempest.

My feedback for Elementalist would be to increase the viability of frontline builds. They have the damage in their kit to be viable, but with their lower health pool, low armour and lack of passive defenses, they are far too likely to simply 'blow up' in a fight to be taken.

1. Practical Changes

   • Re purpose Tempestuous Aria (an extremely unused trait across game modes) to empower auras applied by the Tempest, increasing their effectiveness or duration.
   • Increase personal Barrier output for Weaver to allow for a better sustain. To avoid hurting the roaming and dueling scene heavily, Stone Resonance granting Barrier when struck (effectively allowing a brief period of damage immunity that still allows conditions to stack up) would a skill that has active counter play, and the barrier will simply drop off if kited.
   • Like Rampage, Tornado now reduces damage taken and condition damage taken by 25%. Dust Charge now Evades attacks.
   • Lower the damage on Meteor shower whilst bringing back some damage on Lava Font, Eruption and Ice Spike, to better spread their damage, promote active game play, whilst tuning down the 1shot potential.

2. Idealistic Changes

   • Flame Uprising now Evades attacks. Whilst this would create a DPS role similar to Staff Thief, it may hurt roaming and dueling simply too much to be a practical change.

Revenant

Revenant is in a comfortable place in terms of playability, and is reasonably versatile. As a power backline it brings high burst damage and easy self sustain, with access to vital party boons. It can be played as both a Renegade and a Herald in this role with varying pros and cons. As a healer, Revenant had the highest Healing per Second of any WvW support specialization, but lacks utility like Stability, on demand cleanse, and is extremely difficult to play due to Ventari Tablet mechanics amongst moving targets. In terms of condition damage, the once powerful Mallyx Revenant is on the backburner, as it cannot survive in melee against the constant AoE pressure of Scourges, and struggles to escape damage spikes. This is primarily because Unyielding Anguish, your best damage and corruption ability, also locks you in to the animation, preventing you from quickly escaping or moving out of damage that may appear.

Power backline Revenant fits nicely in the current metagame, and since the damage reduction to Coalescence of Ruin, is no longer as oppressive, but still packs a huge hit. Support Revenant could use some love in functionality and boon support access, but has powerful healing. As a melee damage dealer, they lack viable options in both power and condition damage, but have the personal sustain and group support to make them extremely viable should either weapon skills or utility skills receive slight improvements.

1. Practical Changes

   • Lower the raw damage on Phase Smash - whilst almost there, backline Revenant does still pack too large of a '1hit' punch currently- but not by a lot.
   • Change Opportune Extraction boon removal priority away from Stability and Resistance to allow for melee gameplay.
   • Project Tranquility (Tablet) also pulses 3s of Stability every 3s alongside the healing. Radius increased to 480.
   • Unyeilding Anguish now casts at your feet after 1.33s delay. Grants 1.33s of Superspeed on initial cast. This allows it to retain use as a mobility skill, but also lets you move and evade without being locked in to an animation.
   • Precision Strikes now strikes in a 450 radius around the Revenant, hitting 5 targets, instead of projectiles. Increase cast time to 3/4 seconds.

2. Idealistic Changes

   • Double both the Stability duration and Stacks for Inspiring Reinforcements.
   • Make Versed in Stone's condition damage reduction baseline. the trait now gives an automatic and free Vengeful Hammers when using the Dwarf Elite for 5s

Thief

Thief is viable in the zerg meta currently as a stealth provider and damage dealer, but in very small doses. 1 Thief per squad, or 2 in very large groups, is all that are accepted, and even this acceptance is not common outside of Guild and organized groups. For Melee, Staff Power Thief has a huge damage spike and the potential to 1shot squishy and tank targets alike. For ranged, Thief has the underwhelming Chokebow builds, spamming shortbow 4 for moderate condition damage and occasional CC. Although this post in limited to Zerging, it must be said that Deadeye is also extremely powerful as a ranged damage dealer, making up for a lack of AoE pressure with the best access to ranged single target burst in the game.

Whilst I want to see Thief present in the meta, I think that Staff Thief packs simply too much power for what it is. In an organized group, and in any 15v15 or lower combat, Staff Thief can completely carry fights with their spike damage. Instantly downing targets without warning and providing huge downstate cleave is something that is unseen from any other class, and Staff Thief can do all this whilst in evade frames. To counter a tone down on some of the Staff damage, I would love to see more passive defense on Thief to give it a viable role as a melee damage dealer outside of Vault spamming.

1. Practical Changes

   • In Acrobatics, Assassin's Reward now grants 1 stack of Stability for every 10 attacks Evaded (no ICD). This creates a somewhat meaningful Stability uptime for WvW, but should interfere very little with other game modes or with roaming.
   • If Trick Shot hits 3 foes with its attack (bounces) apply 1 stack of Torment(or bleeding or poison) for 5s to all targets hit.
   • 'Haste' now gives Instant Reflexes, evading all attacks for 2s. Cooldown increased to 60s.
   • Heartseeker now hits 3 targets
   • Flanking Strike no longer moves the thief, but performs the attack without animation locking them. This, I believe, could create an entirely new thief gameplay option for melee zerging.
   • Vault now does 27% less damage. Vault evade reduced to 1/3 seconds.

2. Idealistic Changes

   • Smokescreen now evades all attacks while the Thief stands inside it. Duration lowered to 3s. Prevents capture point contribution.

Mesmer

Mesmer, through Chronomancer, sits as a mandatory slot for all groups. As well as this, many commanders have switched over to Chronomancer, as it has amazing self sustain and boon support, whilst still being incredibly useful to the group through CC, boon support and on demand veil access. Outside of the powerhouse Chronomancer Support, Mesmer has no viable build for melee DPS, and only a very limited and lackluster option for ranged power DPS through mirage. I think that Chronomancer Support is in a healthy place, where it does excellent in the field of Boon and CC support, but lacks healing, creating an active choice for players in what they want to take in their group.

With support Chronomancer in a relatively healthy place, it would be great for more options to become available to Mesmer. Condition Mirage has access to some great skills, but is limited by poor target caps, projectiles, and damage being locked behind Phantasms and clones. Moving some of the abilities to a wider radius, as well as giving back some power to Phantasms in a large scale setting, could see Mesmer performing more than just a support role.

1. Practical Changes

   • Give Protected Phantasms back 1s of Distortion on Phantasm creation.
   • Increase the radius of Mantra of Pain and Mantra of Distraction by 60.
   • Split Surge Radius increased to 360.
   • Mirror Blade now still bounces even if your first target evades. This skill cannot bounce back to the target it just bounced from.
   • Mind Stab - lower aftercast.

2. Idealistic Changes

   • Malicious Sorcery - Clones destroyed within 1s of being created now apply Blind and Cripple in 300 radius. Scepter Skills now apply an additional stack of Torment.

Warrior

Warrior has become a more contentious pick thanks to the Winds of Disenchantment nerf, but still sits as a powerhouse in the game mode. As a melee DPS, Warrior is extremely powerful and versatile, able to dish out huge damage safely with a lot of passive and active defenses. Winds, whilst nerfed, is still an extremely powerful skill, without being as meta defining as previously it still provides huge area denial and can be used powerfully as a defensive and offensive tool. In terms of condition builds, Warrior lacks anything powerful enough to warrant taking, despite its easy access to defense. For ranged builds, the projectile hate of this meta prevent warrior from playing outside of melee. Warrior as a support is available, but not viable, and was in fact pushed even further from the meta with the Winds nerf.

Now that power melee Warrior is in a reasonable place, it would be great to see more variety in gameplay options. A greater access to AoE condition damage, and some more steps in the right direction support wise, will open up Warrior a great deal, as it already has the Defensive skills needed to keep up in a WvW setting.

1. Practical Changes

   • Flames of War radius increased to 240
   • Sword Auto Attack chain radius increased to 200
   • Increase King of Fires detonation radius to 360. Burning stacks increased to 2.
   • Increase Vigorous Shouts base healing by 500.
   • Allies revived by Warbanner are revived with 100% health

2. Idealistic Changes

   • Remove Armored Attack (defense), replace with a trait that spreads Adrenal Health in an AoE with an ICD to help support warrior.

Ranger

Ranger has no place in the current metagame. They exist in a WvW setting primarily in the form of Longbow rangers, many of whom take it upon themselves to single target commanders or other high priority targets. This build, whilst effective in a pug scenario occasionally, has no meaningful DPS, and usually is unable to stop a well supported target within the time their cooldowns allow them to, making it more of a bother than a threat. Frontline Soulbeast has some fantastic utility and strong AoE damage, but is gated behind the low radius of the Stance Sharing and the inability to reliably survive a melee push. Condition builds lack the AoE pressure required to do meaningful DPS, and has too high of a ramp up time to be effective in a WvW setting. Druid remains the single worst of the usable WvW supports, comparable in what it brings to a support warrior. Where once druid had high healing and group buffs but a lack of cleanse, it now lacks high enough healing to compete even there. Coupled with the inherent struggle for rangers to sustain in melee, Druid is in a weak position.

My feedback for Ranger is to increase their ability to live through engages. They bring many tools that are useful, but lack the ability to self sustain reliably enough to warrant taking. Much of their condition damage build is simply too hard to adjust for a WvW setting, but their power damage at melee is extremely high, should they have the capacity to sit there long enough like Warriors can.

1. Practical Changes

   • Give Soulbeast the ability to Pet Swap in Beastmode. This will allow them to viably use defensive pets in sticky moments. This will also open dozens of build opportunities.
   • Allow stances to share in a 600 radius.
   • Signet of Renewal always transfers your conditions to the pet regardless of range as long as it is alive. Also check out the Beastmode functionality.
   • "Guard!" - Give this the Bulwark Gyro treatment, applying a flat 33% damage reduction debuff around the pet/the soulbeast.
   • Lower Quickening Zephyr cooldown to 25s, boons to 5s duration
   • Signet of Stone to 4s Duration or down to 30s Cooldown

2. Idealistic Changes

   • Give the pet the same treatment as PvE, where it cannot be cleaved out, but still takes direct damage. This will allow many traits to suddenly become viable, along with numerous pet skills that are currently completely abandoned.

Engineer

Engineer is in arguably the best place it has been since early Heart of Thorns, with an extremely viable and strong support build, a modest frontline damage dealer and unique utility. In terms of variety, Engineer is limited to support and melee DPS, but does both of these things extremely effectively. It lacks any meaningful condition build, and also lacks any sort of usable ranged damage build. Heal scrapper bring healing that is competitive with Herald, but significantly easier to pull off and to survive on. It also brings fantastic condition cleanse, and some small access to AoE stability. Along with all this, it has the unique access to on demand Superspeed, one of the strongest utilities in the current ground AoE based metagame. As a damage dealer, Scrapper is viable but far from optimal, and Holosmith is powerful at dishing it out and pushing with the melee.

My feedback for Engineer is mostly to give the class a viable ranged option that is not butchered by reflects and enables them to maintain damage outside of pushing, as well as small personal sustain buffs to Holosmith to help carry it through the oppressive damage of Scourge and Revenants.

1. Practical Changes

   • Double the Barrier on Crystal Configuration: Eclipse.
   • Spectrum Shield: Increase duration to 6s in WvW and PvE
   • Streamlined Kits - makes attacks unblockable for 5s after entering a kit with a 20s ICD. This promotes gameplay moving in and out of the kit, and also enables Mortar Kit or Grenade kit to land quick attacks from range before moving back to other weapon skills
   • Increase Grenade Kit range back to 1200 when traited.
   • Increase Grenade Explosion raidus to 180
   • Increase the Stability radius on Defense Shield to 480

2. Idealistic Changes

   • Hard Light Arena follows the Holosmith when used above 50 Heat. Cooldown lowers to 40s.

Conclusion

Well, thats about all I have for this current Metagame. This list is compiled of my own reaction, results of extensive testing, feedback from both the Metabattle discord, website comments, official Forum class sections, WvW section and the official subReddit. Please add in your own feedback.

My personal opinion of this current metagame is that its becoming extremely enjoyable and versatile, and i want to praise the balance team for the last sequence of patches, which have in my eyes made the game mode significantly more enjoyable.

Please let me know anything I have missed, and lets start a good discussion that can HOPEFULLY be used in future balancing, or at least raise some questions that the devs can answer for us :)

Lol, basically you dont play necro and died to zerg where 20 necro ripped your boons but you actually died to some random cor or meteor shower because you're bad at positioning. Necromancer literally is ONLY playable in pve raids as healer because of mercy runes build which people are crying so much that it has been nerfed in pvp,wvw already and will be nerfed pve also soon. In wvw scourge is unplayable solo or small squad, you will only be dead 10secs in fight because your high hp which other classes cry about is NOT a asset to your survivability and you have big red target on your head just because you are a necro and everyone knows subconsciously that necro has no survivability and will be killed as soon as damage lands irrespective of the skill of necro. It can only be played in zergs and there too if only there are mulitple necros and multiple fb sustaining them. Reply back when scourge can go from spawn to keep solo without getting 1shot 15times in a row.

Meanwhile chrono pve, mirage pvp, deadeye wvw/pvp, soulbeast pvp/wvw, holo pvp/wvw laughs in cc chain, invuln, block, stealth and damage.

Edit: forgot about mobility(sorry im a necro, i dont have mobility word in my dictionary)

@XECOR.2814 said:Lol, basically you dont play necro and died to zerg where 20 necro ripped your boons but you actually died to some random cor or meteor shower because you're bad at positioning. Necromancer literally is ONLY playable in pve raids as healer because of mercy runes build which people are crying so much that it has been nerfed in pvp,wvw already and will be nerfed pve also soon. In wvw scourge is unplayable solo or small squad, you will only be dead 10secs in fight because your high hp which other classes cry about is NOT a asset to your survivability and you have big red target on your head just because you are a necro and everyone knows subconsciously that necro has no survivability and will be killed as soon as damage lands irrespective of the skill of necro. It can only be played in zergs and there too if only there are mulitple necros and multiple fb sustaining them. Reply back when scourge can go from spawn to keep solo without getting 1shot 15times in a row.

Meanwhile chrono pve, mirage pvp, deadeye wvw/pvp, soulbeast pvp/wvw, holo pvp/wvw laughs in cc chain, invuln, block, stealth and damage.

Edit: forgot about mobility(sorry im a necro, i dont have mobility word in my dictionary)

Pretty easy to tell that you skipped to the necro section without reading anything else in the post. What part of this is so hard to understand?

@Swordfish.8512 said:For the purpose of this discussion, I'll be sticking strictly to zerg v zerg builds, but please feel free to add in anything you find relevant to the roaming scene. I will be going on a class-by-class basis, looking at the roles, builds and strengths of each class and how they contribute to group gameplay.

Necro is by no means weak in zergs. In fact it is over-represented. You can talk about roaming all you want and I agree that necro could use some love there, but you shouldn't accuse someone of not playing necro when they accurately recognize that they over-perform in zergs.

@XECOR.2814 said:Edit: forgot about mobility(sorry im a necro, i dont have mobility word in my dictionary)

you can trait warhorn and spectral and speed on enter shrout for perma swiftness ;-pand have seen some roamer necros use wurm as teleportish thing

@Ganathar.4956 said:

@XECOR.2814 said:Lol, basically you dont play necro and died to zerg where 20 necro ripped your boons but you actually died to some random cor or meteor shower because you're bad at positioning. Necromancer literally is ONLY playable in pve raids as healer because of mercy runes build which people are crying so much that it has been nerfed in pvp,wvw already and will be nerfed pve also soon. In wvw scourge is unplayable solo or small squad, you will only be dead 10secs in fight because your high hp which other classes cry about is NOT a asset to your survivability and you have big red target on your head just because you are a necro and everyone knows subconsciously that necro has no survivability and will be killed as soon as damage lands irrespective of the skill of necro. It can only be played in zergs and there too if only there are mulitple necros and multiple fb sustaining them. Reply back when scourge can go from spawn to keep solo without getting 1shot 15times in a row.

Meanwhile chrono pve, mirage pvp, deadeye wvw/pvp, soulbeast pvp/wvw, holo pvp/wvw laughs in cc chain, invuln, block, stealth and damage.

Edit: forgot about mobility(sorry im a necro, i dont have mobility word in my dictionary)

@Swordfish.8512 said:For the purpose of this discussion, I'll be sticking strictly to zerg v zerg builds, but please feel free to add in anything you find relevant to the roaming scene. I will be going on a class-by-class basis, looking at the roles, builds and strengths of each class and how they contribute to group gameplay.

Hmmm, good thing i read the necro part. Because what is mentioned there will not only affect zergs but whole wvw. Just because your favourite classes can play solo or in squad, you forget about those modes of playing wvw and think about whats the representation of your class in zergs. Or how high the representation of scourge is in zergs. Now let me ask you 1 thing. How high is the scourge representation in roaming. Now balance according to this.

Btw anet has mentality like you thus nerfing scourge so much because of excess representation of scourge in zergs while forgetting about the fact that there is no build on necro that can survive a decent player solo on any other class.

For example: they buffed dagger 2 cast time but added so that it only works while facing the target. This alone has wrecked the survivability of necro builds so much because while running away(your legs provide the only mobility you have) you were able to cast it and get some healing but now you cant and have to face tank the damage and die. Every nerf on this class is hard hitting and every buff has a nerf attached for 'compensation'.

@wanya.1697 said:

@XECOR.2814 said:Edit: forgot about mobility(sorry im a necro, i dont have mobility word in my dictionary)

Wurm-3sec cast time, you can run the same distance with swiftness instead of casting it. Spectral walk and warhorn are lf generator skills which needs tp be used before going to shroud to sustain shroud while combating Melee classes. I dont have problem with traversal speeds, in combat having no leap, charge skills on top of no invuln skills just kills the class. Im not going to type why scourge portal, deathshoroud 2 and reaper2 are bad for mobility because if you played the class you will know already.

@XECOR.2814 said:

@Ganathar.4956 said:

@XECOR.2814 said:Lol, basically you dont play necro and died to zerg where 20 necro ripped your boons but you actually died to some random cor or meteor shower because you're bad at positioning. Necromancer literally is ONLY playable in pve raids as healer because of mercy runes build which people are crying so much that it has been nerfed in pvp,wvw already and will be nerfed pve also soon. In wvw scourge is unplayable solo or small squad, you will only be dead 10secs in fight because your high hp which other classes cry about is NOT a asset to your survivability and you have big red target on your head just because you are a necro and everyone knows subconsciously that necro has no survivability and will be killed as soon as damage lands irrespective of the skill of necro. It can only be played in zergs and there too if only there are mulitple necros and multiple fb sustaining them. Reply back when scourge can go from spawn to keep solo without getting 1shot 15times in a row.

Meanwhile chrono pve, mirage pvp, deadeye wvw/pvp, soulbeast pvp/wvw, holo pvp/wvw laughs in cc chain, invuln, block, stealth and damage.

Edit: forgot about mobility(sorry im a necro, i dont have mobility word in my dictionary)

@Swordfish.8512 said:For the purpose of this discussion, I'll be sticking strictly to zerg v zerg builds, but please feel free to add in anything you find relevant to the roaming scene. I will be going on a class-by-class basis, looking at the roles, builds and strengths of each class and how they contribute to group gameplay.

My main class is arguably the second worst roamer after necro, so I do know that it can get pretty bad. that doesn't mean that necro should be let to run rampant in zergs though. Unfortunately, zergs affect WvW more than roaming. I do wish that Anet would try to balance roaming a bit more but they don't seem to care that much. Just look at mirage and deadeye, not much is being done about them. If you want to propose necro buffs for roaming you can go right ahead, just be mindful to not make them even more essential in zergs.That dagger nerf does sound awful, but for some bizarre reason the devs suddenly decided that they wanted to make all such skills require the target in front of you. It didn't only happen to necro, it also happened to weaver skills. And they always forget to give the compensatory buffs when they nerf something because they don't like how the mechanics work.

zerg setup

nothing really changed

fb scourge is extremely strong.

sb got fked and is now useless.

you can have a zerg of rev scourge and will beat most players

a good chrono will allow you to zerg.bust.

@XECOR.2814 said:Hmmm, good thing i read the necro part. Because what is mentioned there will not only affect zergs but whole wvw. Just because your favourite classes can play solo or in squad, you forget about those modes of playing wvw and think about whats the representation of your class in zergs. Or how high the representation of scourge is in zergs. Now let me ask you 1 thing. How high is the scourge representation in roaming. Now balance according to this.

I roam on weaver and I encounter 4-5 times as many necromancers as weavers when roaming. I would say it is my 4th most encountered class after mesmer, warrior and ranger.

@Ganathar.4956 said:

@XECOR.2814 said:

@Ganathar.4956 said:

@XECOR.2814 said:Lol, basically you dont play necro and died to zerg where 20 necro ripped your boons but you actually died to some random cor or meteor shower because you're bad at positioning. Necromancer literally is ONLY playable in pve raids as healer because of mercy runes build which people are crying so much that it has been nerfed in pvp,wvw already and will be nerfed pve also soon. In wvw scourge is unplayable solo or small squad, you will only be dead 10secs in fight because your high hp which other classes cry about is NOT a asset to your survivability and you have big red target on your head just because you are a necro and everyone knows subconsciously that necro has no survivability and will be killed as soon as damage lands irrespective of the skill of necro. It can only be played in zergs and there too if only there are mulitple necros and multiple fb sustaining them. Reply back when scourge can go from spawn to keep solo without getting 1shot 15times in a row.

Meanwhile chrono pve, mirage pvp, deadeye wvw/pvp, soulbeast pvp/wvw, holo pvp/wvw laughs in cc chain, invuln, block, stealth and damage.

Edit: forgot about mobility(sorry im a necro, i dont have mobility word in my dictionary)

@"Swordfish.8512" said:For the purpose of this discussion, I'll be sticking strictly to zerg v zerg builds, but please feel free to add in anything you find relevant to the roaming scene. I will be going on a class-by-class basis, looking at the roles, builds and strengths of each class and how they contribute to group gameplay.

Thats what im saying. They nerf necro directly and again with all classes when all skills are already clunky and hard to land.

If you ask me to change things to make this class fun and feel smooth to play while being balanced, for starters i would

1. reduce flesh wurm cast time to 1sec and buff poison stack with addition of fear 1sec on teleport 360radius. Buff minions hp and make flesh golem like ranger pets that dont die and are just recalled.(not going into minion problems rn).

2. Death shroud- auto decrease cast time by .25sec and change ds2 to be able to teleport without target, 1/2sec cast time ground target, range decrease to 900 for BALANCE. Ds4 healing increase by a lot and reduced cd of both ds4 and ds5. Their cd now are hilarious.

3. Add leap to mh dagger3 and increase the damn dagger2 and warhorn 4 fov so that they actually hit something. Idk what to do with dagger offhand ughh.

4. Rework staff away from passive aoes.

5. Remove all power damage and condi damage from shades and make them only provide small amount of support(cleanse, barrier and healing plx) baseline untraited. Target cap untraited will be 3. Sand savant radius is decreased.

On traiting sand savant you will get increased cap to 5 for utilising core corrupt skills to more allies and apply barrier, protection,stab to more allies, perfect for zerg scenarious while not doing absurd amount of damage like now. Mind that there is no damage on f skills rn only support.

On traiting demonic lore gm instead of sand savant. You will have 3 targets instead of 5 from sand savant but all f skills will now do a lot of condi damage. F5 will become supercharged. Balance for roaming.

Swap feed from corruption(scourge gm) and parasitic contagion(curses gm) traits. And make shades be able to share healing of parasitic contagion produced by necro to allies who are standing in shade when it is traited. Feed from corruption shouldve been core necro trait since beginning according to necro description on wiki. And this will be huge qol for core necro that only depends on corrupts.

7. Curses trait that corrupts boon on f2 on scourge changes f2 to some other skill that provides 2 cleanse instead of 1 cleanse with 5 sec protection to allies and rips 1 boon like before. This will move instant boon rip from f1 which is right now to f2 so that people will know if a shade is placed then they can avoid all boon rips completely.(Mind that f1 boon rip is removed according to my suggestions)

8. F3 gives 2sec stab to allies for clutch stunbreak. Increased barrier.

What im trying to do is push sand savant zerg builds to support side with barrier. And corrupts from core traits only.

Demonic lore to damage, solo-roaming side.

Parasitic contagion for raw healing and a little support from f2 protection and f3 stab for small squad play.

*Feed from corruption, leaps, and lowered cast times for self sustain. Plx i want this to be a thing.

I think this will stop scourge stacking because there will be need for dps as scourge zerg builds(sand savant) will push it to do support instead of dps. I think this will address all modes wvw is played by. What do you think?

Well I dont agree with you on necros ability to boon strip.Literally every class except necro can boonspam the shenanigans out of them.Look at guard, you corrupt it, he just applies the boons back to himself.

So it's pretty good to have a lot of corrupts.

Also. Why complain about corrupt of stability. If you don't wanna get feared, don't use stab.Also it's good to have a counter to stab. Else there wouldn't be a counter. Even if you changed the corrupt to another condition, that would negatively affect roaming necros even more, as it's kind of a defense, to specifically corrupt stab, to fear the enemy away.Also most classes can cover their stab with so many other boons, that it's very unlikely, that it gets corrupted, unless the enemy zerg gets to spike exactly your position. But then you deserve to die

Also what would you say against thiefes then. Deadeyes onehit you from stealth for 16-20k.Guardian being able to get invulnerable - also no counterplay. How would you fix these then?

Good post. On necro specifically I think the corrupt changes don't really go far enough. I'd put both axe and scepter at 1 boon corrupted, single target rips like Spinal Shivers and Corrupt Boon hitting three are fine, but AoE boonrips doing so much is a big problem with WvW, especially high ranged corrupts like scepter 3. Even at only one boon corrupted they'd both corrupt more boons per cast in the average zerg fight than those single target corrupts. The idea of making Stability not corrupt into fear is really good as well and would go a long way to making playing as a melee not feel so much more punishing than playing as ranged.

I think the OP's assessments are pretty accurate. I think the rise in relying on thieve's for stealth access has been one of the more unique changes that I have seen lately. gV had a nasty stealth bomb that relied on thief smoke.

One thing I would add is a way to bring viability back to the condi rev. Condi rev weapons are solid, but they suffer from lesser optimized condi skills and traits. Once they changed the way Maniacal Persistance applied Torment, the build lost a lot of condi burst potential. All of these changes from the December 12th update gutted the condi rev.

• Manifest Toxin: Poison has been adjusted from 2 stacks for 6 seconds to 1 stack for 12 seconds.
• Temporal Rift: Torment has been adjusted from 3 stacks for 8 seconds to 2 stacks for 12 seconds.
• Forceful Displacement: Torment has been adjusted from 4 stacks for 6 seconds to 3 stacks for 8 seconds.
• Venom Enhancement: Poison has been adjusted from 2 stacks for 5 seconds to 1 stack for 10 seconds.
• Abyssal Chill: Torment duration has been adjusted from 2 stacks for 3 seconds to 1 stack for 6 seconds.
• Maniacal Persistence: Torment duration has been adjusted from 4 stacks for 5 seconds to 2 stacks for 10 seconds.

I would love to see the frontline herald be able to frontload burst condi DPS once again. Keep the damage short and bursty, but provide a way for condi burst to be strong again. Also, boonrips cannot compete with Scourge boonrips by far. One of the nice things about Condi Herald was its access to boonrip as well. I would slightly buff the boonrip capabilities (in tandem with lowering Scourges). I think this could balance out boonrip capabilities around the professions, with Scourge potentially being highest, then Warrior, and maybe a Condi Herald next.

@XECOR.2814 said:Lol, basically you dont play necro and died to zerg where 20 necro ripped your boons but you actually died to some random cor or meteor shower because you're bad at positioning. Necromancer literally is ONLY playable in pve raids as healer because of mercy runes build which people are crying so much that it has been nerfed in pvp,wvw already and will be nerfed pve also soon. In wvw scourge is unplayable solo or small squad, you will only be dead 10secs in fight because your high hp which other classes cry about is NOT a asset to your survivability and you have big red target on your head just because you are a necro and everyone knows subconsciously that necro has no survivability and will be killed as soon as damage lands irrespective of the skill of necro. It can only be played in zergs and there too if only there are mulitple necros and multiple fb sustaining them. Reply back when scourge can go from spawn to keep solo without getting 1shot 15times in a row.

Meanwhile chrono pve, mirage pvp, deadeye wvw/pvp, soulbeast pvp/wvw, holo pvp/wvw laughs in cc chain, invuln, block, stealth and damage.

Edit: forgot about mobility(sorry im a necro, i dont have mobility word in my dictionary)

I completely agree with this response. The OP clearly suggests changes to benefit roaming under the guise of improving their representation in zergs. Mesmers of all types and thieves should not be getting any buffs as the majority of posts here show. They should instead be heavily nerfed due to their overwhelming dominance based on build, not skill, in open world roaming. OP claims to have opinions representing the community but this is clearly not the case.

Additionally OP makes some huge assumptions about how zerg play is crucial to wvw. Zergs ONLY exist because arenanet hasn't introduced mechanics that already exist in fractals that would punish large groups from standing together to magnify boon, condition cleanse, spike damage, and rally/revive mechanics. Wvw would be a much healthier place and far easier to balance with pvp/pve if zerging was more discouraged.

Literally 3/4ths of new posts (as of 11/2) are about one of these issues, which could be adjusted with a variant of social awkwardness added to wvw instead of completely disrupting the balance between weak small group classes and the meta build DEs and mirages/chronos out there.

We already have enough brainless button mash 1 combo kills from the PoF classes. We should nerf them heavily, get rid of ALL passive mechanics, and decimate stealth and endless evasion traits.

OP is out of touch.

@XECOR.2814 said:

@Ganathar.4956 said:

@XECOR.2814 said:

@Ganathar.4956 said:

@XECOR.2814 said:Lol, basically you dont play necro and died to zerg where 20 necro ripped your boons but you actually died to some random cor or meteor shower because you're bad at positioning. Necromancer literally is ONLY playable in pve raids as healer because of mercy runes build which people are crying so much that it has been nerfed in pvp,wvw already and will be nerfed pve also soon. In wvw scourge is unplayable solo or small squad, you will only be dead 10secs in fight because your high hp which other classes cry about is NOT a asset to your survivability and you have big red target on your head just because you are a necro and everyone knows subconsciously that necro has no survivability and will be killed as soon as damage lands irrespective of the skill of necro. It can only be played in zergs and there too if only there are mulitple necros and multiple fb sustaining them. Reply back when scourge can go from spawn to keep solo without getting 1shot 15times in a row.

Meanwhile chrono pve, mirage pvp, deadeye wvw/pvp, soulbeast pvp/wvw, holo pvp/wvw laughs in cc chain, invuln, block, stealth and damage.

Edit: forgot about mobility(sorry im a necro, i dont have mobility word in my dictionary)

@"Swordfish.8512" said:For the purpose of this discussion, I'll be sticking strictly to zerg v zerg builds, but please feel free to add in anything you find relevant to the roaming scene. I will be going on a class-by-class basis, looking at the roles, builds and strengths of each class and how they contribute to group gameplay.

1. reduce flesh wurm cast time to 1sec and buff poison stack with addition of fear 1sec on teleport 360radius. Buff minions hp and make flesh golem like ranger pets that dont die and are just recalled.(not going into minion problems rn).

2. Death shroud- auto decrease cast time by .25sec and change ds2 to be able to teleport without target, 1/2sec cast time ground target, range decrease to 900 for BALANCE. Ds4 healing increase by a lot and reduced cd of both ds4 and ds5. Their cd now are hilarious.

3. Add leap to mh dagger3 and increase the kitten dagger2 and warhorn 4 fov so that they actually hit something. Idk what to do with dagger offhand ughh.

4. Rework staff away from passive aoes.

5. Remove all power damage and condi damage from shades and make them only provide small amount of support(cleanse, barrier and healing plx) baseline untraited. Target cap untraited will be 3. Sand savant radius is decreased.

7. Curses trait that corrupts boon on f2 on scourge changes f2 to some other skill that provides 2 cleanse instead of 1 cleanse with 5 sec protection to allies and rips 1 boon like before. This will move instant boon rip from f1 which is right now to f2 so that people will know if a shade is placed then they can avoid all boon rips completely.(Mind that f1 boon rip is removed according to my suggestions)

8. F3 gives 2sec stab to allies for clutch stunbreak. Increased barrier.

These are very extensive changes and look like a scourge rework. I really do like the idea of scourge being more supportive in its core functionalities instead of focusing so much on damage, like it should have been from the beginning. I have wanted this sort of rework to happen for some time now, but I don't know if Anet are willing to work on scourge at the moment. Hopefully they announce a scourge rework in the next balance preview, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

All in all pretty fair appraisal of classes and suggestions. Nerfs are a little too strong across the board but otherwise ok.

I think it SUCKS HARD that after 6 years, Anet still cannot get WVW even close to balanced in terms of classes. The same classes that were dominant in year 1 are still dominant in year 6. I don't really want these classes nerfed hard, I just want to see the "forgotten classes" (thief, ranger, but also various other specs of other classes, eg: D/D Ele) given something good/unique/comparable to the meta classes so they have a chance to be played.