Relatively newbie player confused by WvW "culture".

Hello. I'm a relatively new player. I'm playing the game for maybe like 2 months with varying intensity but I enjoy the game, lore, story and most of the game modes a lot. One thing I cannot really grasp is strange culture of WvW squads. As a newbie I came here for explanations, not to make accusations but to be honest more often than not I feel that there is unreasonable amount of idk... elitism(?) in zerg wvw squads. Apparently the server I happen to play at has quite competitive WvW community(bonus points for guessing the server, I'm not going to namecall it right now). They seem to be relatively well organised with discord, dedicated site with meta builds for their zergs etc. The problem is that many commanders seem to have great pleasure in kicking people for sometimes clear sometimes not at all reasons varying from picking 'wrong' specialisation to having wrong food active, of course if anybody even bothers to clarify what went wrong before kicking people. It applies even to situation where there is clearly plenty of room in the squad left and 'having to make some room for GUT people' is not the case. I think I went through most of the scenarios. Got kicked without a word, kicked with info from kind stranger on what I did wrong, seen people got kicked for whatever reason, was allowed in with both more or less 'proper' build and terribly suboptimal for anything build only because specialisation marker and food buff checked out. Of course you don't have to be in the squad to follow the zerg but I can't really see how limiting people's ability to be in squad helps anyone, unless you are really short on slots and have to filter people out somehow. Commander denies access to squad chat, which can be inconvenient even if discord voice chat is being used. Commander on the other hand gets less information on state of the zerg with non-squad people running around etc. At least that's how I see it.

Some questions:

1. Am I missing something and getting rid of 'non proper meta' players from the squad and have them just follow the tag on their own benefits anybody somehow?
2. Is really WvW so much about meta-building?
3. Is it "industry standard" or my server is a little over the top?
4. Should I even care if I want to stay in WvW for fun pvp experience? Maybe I should learn to roam solo/in smaller groups instead of dealing with this crap?
5. How this strange culture even came to be. Is it really sustainable that way? Trying to get into WvW without proper knowledge and picking 'wrong' class can bring insta-toxicity and scare away potential new players way to easy.

I want to emphasise once more that I don't feel in place to call into question how WvW should work and pass my judgements as 'right'. I'm just random inexperienced guy who wants to know how the community he came across works.

Vabbi by any chance? They are very strict in the builds they will accept to their squad. And to be fair it is their squad so their rules.If it is not then I guess other servers have this attitude too now :(Are you sure the tag was open btw? Perhaps you tried to join closed ones? I would start of with a smaller linked server where people seem to be a bit friendlier towards new players. And we should because we need new players.

At the start of your post you note you are a relatively new player to WvW which I infer from it that you have some experience with it based on the statement.

Like most end game area of GW2 there are optimal and sub optimal builds for each mode.

WvW has theirs. I would suggest the following:

• check back with the helpful stranger to see if you can access the discord
• Ask for a link to the builds and specs the server tends to run
• Build towards this with proper food and tool which, honestly can be an instant giveaway that you aren’t running what is asked for
• Ask if the server (maybe this particular commander) has training runs where suggestions can be given.

Sounds a lot like Raids and T4 fractals doesn’t it?

Now if you have no desire to do that, which is your choice, then just follow along at your own risk and hazard. I would not suggest this, but it’s up to you.

@"Zychuu.7294" said:Hello. I'm a relatively new player. I'm playing the game for maybe like 2 months with varying intensity but I enjoy the game, lore, story and most of the game modes a lot. One thing I cannot really grasp is strange culture of WvW squads. As a newbie I came here for explanations, not to make accusations but to be honest more often than not I feel that there is unreasonable amount of idk... elitism(?) in zerg wvw squads. Apparently the server I happen to play at has quite competitive WvW community(bonus points for guessing the server, I'm not going to namecall it right now). They seem to be relatively well organised with discord, dedicated site with meta builds for their zergs etc. The problem is that many commanders seem to have great pleasure in kicking people for sometimes clear sometimes not at all reasons varying from picking 'wrong' specialisation to having wrong food active, of course if anybody even bothers to clarify what went wrong before kicking people. It applies even to situation where there is clearly plenty of room in the squad left and 'having to make some room for GUT people' is not the case. I think I went through most of the scenarios. Got kicked without a word, kicked with info from kind stranger on what I did wrong, seen people got kicked for whatever reason, was allowed in with both more or less 'proper' build and terribly suboptimal for anything build only because specialisation marker and food buff checked out. Of course you don't have to be in the squad to follow the zerg but I can't really see how limiting people's ability to be in squad helps anyone, unless you are really short on slots and have to filter people out somehow. Commander denies access to squad chat, which can be inconvenient even if discord voice chat is being used. Commander on the other hand gets less information on state of the zerg with non-squad people running around etc. At least that's how I see it.

Some questions:

1. Am I missing something and getting rid of 'non proper meta' players from the squad and have them just follow the tag on their own benefits anybody somehow?
2. Is really WvW so much about meta-building?
3. Is it "industry standard" or my server is a little over the top?
4. Should I even care if I want to stay in WvW for fun pvp experience? Maybe I should learn to roam solo/in smaller groups instead of dealing with this kitten?
5. How this strange culture even came to be. Is it really sustainable that way? Trying to get into WvW without proper knowledge and picking 'wrong' class can bring insta-toxicity and scare away potential new players way to easy.

I want to emphasise once more that I don't feel in place to call into question how WvW should work and pass my judgements as 'right'. I'm just random inexperienced guy who wants to know how the community he came across works.

As far as I'm concerned... A bad commander needs everyone to run META builds in order to be efficient, while a good commander can make use of everyone and still be effective.

I've seen good commanders, but they are extremely rare. They do things like putting Thieves into 1 squad and assigning them the roles of chasing down stragglers or skirting the outsides of fights, they give rangers the role of Pinsniping using unblockable attacks and so forth.

My advice would be to find a server or commander you enjoy following and support that commander, rude commanders and elite commanders generally don't have a following for long, especially the ones who blame the pugs instead of themselves.

@aspirine.6852 said:Vabbi by any chance?Wow that was quick. Nice one.

Yeah I'm talking about open squads. Now when you mentioned it I find it very ineffective to left the squad open and kick ton of people instead of closing it in the first place, but whatever, as you said, their squads so their rules. They are quite strict about it, but at least more or less precise about their requirements (it's not like the discord and/or builds site are super hidden). I'm just not really sure if I can keep up with such attitude myself.

To a degree this exists, but not for all groups; pug groups generally need bodies and kicking people for food seems kinda extreme.

@sephiroth.4217 said:My advice would be to find a server or commander you enjoy following and support that commander, rude commanders and elite commanders generally don't have a following for long, especially the ones who blame the pugs instead of themselves.

And yea that.

you know... switching servers is not a bad choice sometimes... there are even some carebear like servers out there. There are guilds and commanders on smaller servers who don't give a kitten about your build, as long as you just pull your weight.

@"Zychuu.7294" said:Some questions:

1. Am I missing something and getting rid of 'non proper meta' players from the squad and have them just follow the tag on their own benefits anybody somehow?
2. Is really WvW so much about meta-building?
3. Is it "industry standard" or my server is a little over the top?
4. Should I even care if I want to stay in WvW for fun pvp experience? Maybe I should learn to roam solo/in smaller groups instead of dealing with this kitten?
5. How this strange culture even came to be. Is it really sustainable that way? Trying to get into WvW without proper knowledge and picking 'wrong' class can bring insta-toxicity and scare away potential new players way to easy.

There are many different subcultures within WvW. On some servers the kind of toxic try-harding you are describing is more vocal than others. On some servers it's very common to see comms act in the toxic way you are talking about.On other servers people just put up an open tag and make do with whatever joins the squad, not caring if people are running halloween food and just hoping the zerg can build on time.Some servers are a mixture of both.

The kind of stringent requirements you are talking about from comms on open tags is not indicative of the player base at large. You see it much more in serious WvW guilds...and that is totally their right.But when they start behaving that way to open pugs?You make the choice at that point, to conform or do something else. It's their squad, their rules.

WvW is not nearly as strict to the meta as you would believe from your experiences. They are a lot of people who gatekeep the game mode pretty hard, but they are not the majority, (though sometimes they are more vocal). WvW is the perfect place to theorcraft wacky builds and experiment. Most open tag commanders just hope you can stay alive, keep up your supply and build on time..extra points if you can bring something to the squad.

My advice when the BL you are in has tags up that behave like that to pugs on open tags, go check to see if your world has active players on other BL. Stop zergging and learn to roam.

Play something useful, or be useful. I mainly play on my ranger, which isn't really meta and won't get you in squads unless they know you... I'm the guy that scouts around then rejoins our group, builds and mans a treb or a cata, calls location and numbers, runs a merged healing pet, snipes the right targets and positions himself well with a decent build (group benefit skills) so that I tend to be one of the last downed, knocks back those pesky people trying to disable siege, targets a/cs, etc on walls and generally contribute more than many other players in the zerg.

If you're not sure on food then just check what you should be using. Given the number of players I see running none or just one (some because it ran out and they didn't notice!) I'd be surprised if people are kicking for that.

And you make a valid point about kicking and then having sub optimals following you around anyway- mostly the reason you're kicked is to do with group compositions and boon shares etc. If our group is particularly well organised and they might need a space I volunteer to drop (I can follow a com easily and have known most of them long enough to be able to play with them without needing to be in the group) as I don't have that much need for the group support that might be better with another guard in that party.

Play something that you enjoy playing- it's no fun if you don't like the toon you're being 'forced' to play.

Or move down a tier. Where groups are never full and they are just glad to have people to play with!!

@"Zychuu.7294" said:Hello. I'm a relatively new player. I'm playing the game for maybe like 2 months with varying intensity but I enjoy the game, lore, story and most of the game modes a lot. One thing I cannot really grasp is strange culture of WvW squads. As a newbie I came here for explanations, not to make accusations but to be honest more often than not I feel that there is unreasonable amount of idk... elitism(?) in zerg wvw squads. Apparently the server I happen to play at has quite competitive WvW community(bonus points for guessing the server, I'm not going to namecall it right now). They seem to be relatively well organised with discord, dedicated site with meta builds for their zergs etc. The problem is that many commanders seem to have great pleasure in kicking people for sometimes clear sometimes not at all reasons varying from picking 'wrong' specialisation to having wrong food active, of course if anybody even bothers to clarify what went wrong before kicking people. It applies even to situation where there is clearly plenty of room in the squad left and 'having to make some room for GUT people' is not the case. I think I went through most of the scenarios. Got kicked without a word, kicked with info from kind stranger on what I did wrong, seen people got kicked for whatever reason, was allowed in with both more or less 'proper' build and terribly suboptimal for anything build only because specialisation marker and food buff checked out. Of course you don't have to be in the squad to follow the zerg but I can't really see how limiting people's ability to be in squad helps anyone, unless you are really short on slots and have to filter people out somehow. Commander denies access to squad chat, which can be inconvenient even if discord voice chat is being used. Commander on the other hand gets less information on state of the zerg with non-squad people running around etc. At least that's how I see it.

Some questions:

1. Am I missing something and getting rid of 'non proper meta' players from the squad and have them just follow the tag on their own benefits anybody somehow?
2. Is really WvW so much about meta-building?
3. Is it "industry standard" or my server is a little over the top?
4. Should I even care if I want to stay in WvW for fun pvp experience? Maybe I should learn to roam solo/in smaller groups instead of dealing with this kitten?
5. How this strange culture even came to be. Is it really sustainable that way? Trying to get into WvW without proper knowledge and picking 'wrong' class can bring insta-toxicity and scare away potential new players way to easy.

I want to emphasise once more that I don't feel in place to call into question how WvW should work and pass my judgements as 'right'. I'm just random inexperienced guy who wants to know how the community he came across works.

Welcome to Guild Wars.There's a few different kinds of players here:

• Toxic elitists - people who are agressive towards everyone that don't share their views on how the game should be played.
• Elitists - people who want to do the best possible, and hope others do the same, while being constructive and helpful
• "normies" - people who do try, but not really as much as the aforementioned, they might google a good build, and do pretty well, but they aren't going to be running DPS meters 24/7.
• "casuals" - people that don't really care much about performance, and play their own game. They tend to do their own thing, and avoid the more "competitive" modes.
• Toxic casuals - people who don't try and actively resent those that do. Everyone that cares about finishing a raid, a fractal or any other content with some speed and efficiency are toxic in their minds. The forums are full of their complaints btw.

You want to avoid players in the two extremes. And sadly, PvP modes do often attract more of either, or at least put them in a spotlight. Just disregard them as what they are.Also, you have to understand, the game's old, and little has been done to refresh WvW. It's been very stale, with only minor weekend events, and some rewards changes being effected in the last few years. What this means is that most of the people in WvW are "hardcore" wvw players, or people grinding rewards (because since HoT, Arena Net's answer to making content "attractive" has been to add more grind to it).This means that most people there are also old players, and they expect everyone to fit in the same camp. And that's where your troubles come from. The "Best Community in any MMORPG" was a title that fit the game before the stale content and the F2P opening up the game to people less invested, and lets face it, less mature, these things led to the community becoming less inviting by the year.My advice is to grow a thicker skin, you need it for games in general, and give those peoples the importance they deserve, which is none.

Finally, answering your questions:

1. No, it doesn't benefit someone. In fact many servers actively encourage people to be in squads and in voice. There's elitists that will be elitists. Now, if it's a guild group, that's a different ball game, those usually run smaller groups, with better players, and are more efficient than the standard open squad blob.
2. Depends. If your world is about dueling, or "fights", then yeah. Otherwise. I've captured keeps with 4 other guys while running greens. Tactics matter.
3. Might be your server, i've never experienced anyone questioning my build, then again, haven't played much in the last few months, maybe it changed. Might not even be the server, just the commander that you met.
4. Well, atm i'd say it's hard to get a good PVP experience in GW2. At least not as good as the game is capable of delivering. Due to several factors. If you want to experience what you can get anyway. Just ignore the toxic people, and learn to hang with those less toxic.
5. Many reasons, some i've cited, some i won't bother, there's too many of them, and mentioning some might end up offending a moderator's sensibilities. It's not really sustainable, but neither is the current direction for PvP modes overal in GW2. WvW, is actually planned to be reworked. The way it's planned to work, can work against new players, or it can be helpful. It really remains to be seen. That's because how its described, they're going to have "servers" be randomly assembled from the community, with Guilds and Alliances of Guilds as the core of the worlds. This fact might turn the WvW community into a very "closed" community that makes it harder to get in. And will definitely make it harder or even impossible to create or adhere to an identity without joining a guild.

My heart goes out to the OP.

Once upon a time...we were allowed to have long-term communities that welcomed you, but lots of resident WvW Forum experts demanded that the game mode be changed into what it is now....and actually think they've contributed to improving WvW. ANet took their advice seriously...and this awful trend continues through today...with Alliance Linking. I blame the WvW Forum experts...that supported Server Linking that caused this cascade of culture change. You reap what you sow. Sorry that WvW doesn't have the long-term communities that we used to have....where you could eventually find a Server to match your niche.

Players like the OP could....once upon a time....humbly start out from a low desolate Server....and move to more populated Servers....learning how the culture of WvW works...instead of being dumped directly into the big tank filled with Sharks....this is what the Server Linking mechanic does...eventually we run out of fodder noobs to throw into the battle.

Yours truly,Diku

p.s.See some of my past posts...please vote Helpful or Thumbs up if you agree.

My main suggestion to you is to join a more casual wvw guild on your server. Let them know that you're relatively new but you're willing to learn. 9 times out of 10 they should be able to walk you through the game mode.

Being in a squad means that boons, heals and buffs will prioritize those that are in the squad over those that are not. Certain classes are not as reliant on those things as others, and/or do not provide them. For example, a Thief has enough ways to survive without the support of a squad and does not offer enough support to need to be in it. Other classes, like Necromancer for example, do not have ways to survive without support.

Although every class can benefit from being in a squad and every class has it's own support to offer, some provide much more significant support or are much more reliant on it. Therefore, by being in a squad as something that does not need nor provide, you are potentially siphoning that support to yourself over someone who needs it more. An example would be if you were on the backline with a Ranger getting a lot of heals and Stability while the Necromancer next to you is getting very little and struggling to survive, thus also struggling to contribute meaningful damage.

You are entitled to play what you want, but there is a reason the meta exists. You can choose to be stubborn, which will almost certainly impact your experience negatively. Or you can adapt either by improving your survival skills and understanding of your chosen class, or by switching to something that is a part of the meta and thus welcomed in squads.

Good luck, and I hope this helped in some way.

The simple answer to anyone that feel dissapointed by this commander dictated "culture":

Tag up.

Even Vabbi (huehuehue) has a major shortage of commanders at all times and many people no longer seem to care. I am on FSP (Vabbi link for anyone not knowing) and have been tagging pink kittycat from time to time and recieved none of the "go guardian or tag the eff off" that frequently happened when FSP was going solo. Will you replace a blue commander on ts? No, of course not. Know your own limits. You're not going to fight 70 angry Germans with 5 people in squad. Leave that to the blues. Their squad, they decide what they want in it so that they can fight those numbers, which is sort of the point. You can help them if you choose but if you go against the meta flow... you do so at the risk of getting kicked. If you got your own squad however, you're not getting kicked.

If you choose to go against the zerg meta and isnt interested in tagging to even get the smallest/loosest of squads going, well thats just normal roaming. Thats fine too. We do it all the time and we're un-kickable.

Not sure what server you are on but all the commanders I have seen on my server will sometimes ask for certain classes and build's but never demand them. I know guilds do this but I have yet to see a pugmander do it and we still hold our own in most fights. I would find another server that just enjoys the fights win or lose.

It also heavily depends on what class you play. Is it scrapper/ranger? The kick will be incoming within the first few seconds. Some servers accept every class in their squad, until the squad becomes full. Then they kick the less useful (rangers, engies, thieves) to get more blobclasses (spellbreakers, firebrands, scourges, revenants, eles).

Join maguuma we don't care! Why? Because in 6 months you'll divorce us and leave crys

No joke though. if your NA sever related go to maguuma we will train you then ship you out to a new server and then we will train new ones to replace you but sadly we are starting to run out of people to train ;3

Lol no surprise there OP. You’re playing on whats generally known as the cesspool server. Not all servers are like that and not by a long shot. Good advice givin already but since you’re linked with FSP, try to find one of their guilds to shadow/learn from. FSP has great players.

you've hit a very salty server.even by wvw standards.enjoy the game, ignore alot of the advice, you won't last very long if you go all zerker gear and you are new.you need easier builds and play to learn the ebb and flow of wvw. If you die in the first 5 secs every time you will learn nothing.ALso know your classes 'role' and weapon set. you need to be comfortable if you are going to start understanding the more pvp side......

When stepping into a new gamemode(with the intent to get better at it) the process is simple, but requires some effort on the part of the rookie. Jump into WvW, ask the commanders you seeing running around which voice communication they use, get in voice communications with said commanders. Once in their TS/Discord/whatever, during a lull in the fighting, state that you are new to WvW, and could use some guidance into which classes to play, and which builds to use. If they ignore you, they're not what you're looking for, if they answer you, take their advice, and do what they suggest.

One could not even pay me to play on vabbi. I suggest you transfer to a less toxic server where other people do not force you to play the game their way.

@Aiga.3075 said:Not sure what server you are on but all the commanders I have seen on my server will sometimes ask for certain classes and build's but never demand them. I know guilds do this but I have yet to see a pugmander do it and we still hold our own in most fights. I would find another server that just enjoys the fights win or lose.

it is Vabbi. Where all the self proclaimed fighting/good guilds converged. It is cesspit.

The easiest way would be to change servers. Deso has some nice people, AG, GH, PS...

btw is PS still carebear no1?

@sephiroth.4217 said:As far as I'm concerned... A bad commander needs everyone to run META builds in order to be efficient, while a good commander can make use of everyone and still be effective.

I've seen good commanders, but they are extremely rare. They do things like putting Thieves into 1 squad and assigning them the roles of chasing down stragglers or skirting the outsides of fights, they give rangers the role of Pinsniping using unblockable attacks and so forth.

My advice would be to find a server or commander you enjoy following and support that commander, rude commanders and elite commanders generally don't have a following for long, especially the ones who blame the pugs instead of themselves.

Explain this to the people of Vabbi :joy: pretty sure all their commanders request people to run META ;) while all of them think they're the best while now in T4 :D

btw, I'm suspecting the OP is on Vabbi.

@Larenc.1269 said:Join maguuma we don't care! Why? Because in 6 months you'll divorce us and leave crys

No joke though. if your NA sever related go to maguuma we will train you then ship you out to a new server and then we will train new ones to replace you but sadly we are starting to run out of people to train ;3

Best Mag self diss i've seen

+1 good Sir and/or Ma'am

Been playing this game a long time. Seen a lot of commanders, metas and elitists come and go. With ANET's garbage transfer policy still in place, you can bet most of these idiots will be bandwagoning somewhere else soon enough.

Don't take these people too seriously, it's just a game and you can play it how you want. If you want to be a part of their subculture and be a part of the team then you may have to adjust your playstyle a bit depending on the commander. But it isn't important, no matter what bs they claim.

I generally don't bother joining squads anymore, don't even get on discord. You can follow a zerg and not have to join the squad. If they don't like it, tough.