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What if you could not get up allies in downstate in combat but there is no natural bleeding out?


Anput.4620

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This would mean so the bigger group doesn't have an advantage with instaresses but you would still have to finish downed players off as they don't bleed out naturally and can still use rally for heals.

Sounds fair to me while keeping downstate, if you finish the enemy off before they finish off your downs you can still ress them after combat is over and downed players can still damage the enemy this way without downstate carrying outnumbers as hard, it would also make things like Guardian instares signet way more valuable and Scrappers could have in combat res with Gyro only which would make them better too.

Watch this and tell me downstate is fair?

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If down state damage is your issue, I don't even think removing downstate will make it better. The fight already favours the ones still standing.

If this was implemented nobody would ress in the heat of battle because it's risky and a waste of limited resources, and then we'd be back to the days of no downstate pretty much.

Not only that, bunkers would be out of employment in PvP as well.

I get you are trying to shave off on both sides of the bar, but this would make it alot easier for the ones cleaving than it would ressing - if we changed it so that downed bodies could only take damage from autoattacks in addition to your version, and give every profession a ranged res skill on a lower cooldown than today, then we're starting to get there.

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While I have pitched this idea myself a while back, some of your reasoning needs more reasoning.

Example...Guardian's res abilities is ridiculous atm. Even if this were to happen, the high CD insta res abilities would only benefit/be used by zergs, thus giving them a different kind of advantage (which your reasoning is stating its avoiding giving them an advantage).

I could see more scrapper's function gyro or ranger's Search and Rescue becoming more useful, however it also buffs necro (even moreso) as well thanks to their trait that teleports downs to them. Without bleeding out, their effectiveness rises greatly as well....and zergs will still have an advantage.

As for smaller scale groups however it would benefit the smaller number.

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@"rng.1024" said:If down state damage is your issue, I don't even think removing downstate will make it better. The fight already favours the ones still standing.

If this was implemented nobody would ress in the heat of battle because it's risky and a waste of limited resources, and then we'd be back to the days of no downstate pretty much.

Not only that, bunkers would be out of employment in PvP as well.

I get you are trying to shave off on both sides of the bar, but this would make it alot easier for the ones cleaving than it would ressing - if we changed it so that downed bodies could only take damage from autoattacks in addition to your version, and give every profession a ranged res skill on a lower cooldown than today, then we're starting to get there.

Except you can't ress in combat so they won't be still standing every time, you are talking about PvP but this is the WvW forum.

Why is it unfair though? Why shouldn't downstate benefit the one downing someone? You beat them fair and square, no reason to help the outnumbers.

Watch this and tell me downstate is fair.

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@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:While I have pitched this idea myself a while back, some of your reasoning needs more reasoning.

Example...Guardian's res abilities is ridiculous atm. Even if this were to happen, the high CD insta res abilities would only benefit/be used by zergs, thus giving them a different kind of advantage (which your reasoning is stating its avoiding giving them an advantage).

I could see more scrapper's function gyro or ranger's Search and Rescue becoming more useful, however it also buffs necro (even moreso) as well thanks to their trait that teleports downs to them. Without bleeding out, their effectiveness rises greatly as well....and zergs will still have an advantage.

As for smaller scale groups however it would benefit the smaller number.

Except you can't heal them until they and you are both out of combat except with long CD instaresses ofc.

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@Anput.4620 said:

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:While I have pitched this idea myself a while back, some of your reasoning needs more reasoning.

Example...Guardian's res abilities is ridiculous atm. Even if this were to happen, the high CD insta res abilities would only benefit/be used by zergs, thus giving them a different kind of advantage (which your reasoning is stating its avoiding giving them an advantage).

I could see more scrapper's function gyro or ranger's Search and Rescue becoming more useful, however it also buffs necro (even moreso) as well thanks to their trait that teleports downs to them. Without bleeding out, their effectiveness rises greatly as well....and zergs will still have an advantage.

As for smaller scale groups however it would benefit the smaller number.

Except you can't heal them until they and you are both out of combat except with long CD instaresses ofc.

Than many traits and utilities will need to be reworked which could/would take a lot of time to re-work and balance. I can see it as maybe an weekend event, however not one that would be seriously implemented.

as much as I loved no downstate week...it wont be permanent due to reworking a bunch of things.

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Or what if we just got rid of downed state and all skills and traits related to the concept were split into WvW variants with new utility? I think that's best, but let's be real. They're never going to change it. Too much work for a gamemode they've all but abandoned.

Not the dev's fault. Priorities are formed because of facts. Fact is WvW must not be important.

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@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:While I have pitched this idea myself a while back, some of your reasoning needs more reasoning.

Example...Guardian's res abilities is ridiculous atm. Even if this were to happen, the high CD insta res abilities would only benefit/be used by zergs, thus giving them a different kind of advantage (which your reasoning is stating its avoiding giving them an advantage).

I could see more scrapper's function gyro or ranger's Search and Rescue becoming more useful, however it also buffs necro (even moreso) as well thanks to their trait that teleports downs to them. Without bleeding out, their effectiveness rises greatly as well....and zergs will still have an advantage.

As for smaller scale groups however it would benefit the smaller number.

Except you can't heal them until they and you are both out of combat except with long CD instaresses ofc.

Than many traits and utilities will need to be reworked which could/would take a lot of time to re-work and balance. I can see it as maybe an weekend event, however not one that would be seriously implemented.

as much as I loved no downstate week...it wont be permanent due to reworking a bunch of things.

Reworked downstated=/= no downstate. Just no res in combat and no bleeding out, simple as that.

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@Anput.4620 said:

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:While I have pitched this idea myself a while back, some of your reasoning needs more reasoning.

Example...Guardian's res abilities is ridiculous atm. Even if this were to happen, the high CD insta res abilities would only benefit/be used by zergs, thus giving them a different kind of advantage (which your reasoning is stating its avoiding giving them an advantage).

I could see more scrapper's function gyro or ranger's Search and Rescue becoming more useful, however it also buffs necro (even moreso) as well thanks to their trait that teleports downs to them. Without bleeding out, their effectiveness rises greatly as well....and zergs will still have an advantage.

As for smaller scale groups however it would benefit the smaller number.

Except you can't heal them until they and you are both out of combat except with long CD instaresses ofc.

Than many traits and utilities will need to be reworked which could/would take a lot of time to re-work and balance. I can see it as maybe an weekend event, however not one that would be seriously implemented.

as much as I loved no downstate week...it wont be permanent due to reworking a bunch of things.

Reworked downstated=/= no downstate. Just no res in combat and no bleeding out, simple as that.

Just remember that Downed mechanics are universal to all players. You may have been frustrated today by not killing them, but tomorrow it might be you benefiting from the same mechanics...

Pendulum swings both ways, and that's what many forget when providing suggestions about this topic.

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@Anput.4620 said:

@"rng.1024" said:If down state damage is your issue, I don't even think removing downstate will make it better. The fight already favours the ones still standing.

If this was implemented nobody would ress in the heat of battle because it's risky and a waste of limited resources, and then we'd be back to the days of no downstate pretty much.

Not only that, bunkers would be out of employment in PvP as well.

I get you are trying to shave off on both sides of the bar, but this would make it alot easier for the ones cleaving than it would ressing - if we changed it so that downed bodies could only take damage from autoattacks in addition to your version, and give every profession a ranged res skill on a lower cooldown than today, then we're starting to get there.

Except you can't ress in combat so they won't be still standing every time, you are talking about PvP but this is the WvW forum.

Why is it unfair though? Why shouldn't downstate benefit the one downing someone? You beat them fair and square, no reason to help the outnumbers.

Watch this and tell me downstate is fair.

Didn't you say signets and gyros (utility resses) could ress in combat?

So your suggested change would only affect WvW?

Downstate already benefits the ones downing someone, but your method allows every profession 1 way to ress someone gated behind a cd and opponents 20 ways to cleave. Not bleeding out will not balance this, as we already cleave downed targets out. In todays game this gives us an opportunity to also cleave the one ressing - but this wouldn't happen anymore.

The video is a great example of why stomps are in the game, he had glint heal ready to go for it any time. He lost because of a warrior mechaninc he should have seen coming, and could cleave easy with hammer 5 while not pressured but didn't pay attention. If you get downed 1v1, the changes will do nothing. The whole point of the rally system relies on having an ally present, and even then there is counterplay if you down someone. The video is a poor example, because mara warrior, downed necro put out some of the biggest numbers in the game + there was another one there to boot. This is simply a misplay on the revenants part, as he could have outranged them all with hammer. You're not supposed to have it easier when facing more than 1 opponent. He had the opportunity to drive this home, but his decisionmaking messed up - a good player plays around the mechanics in place, blaming a mechanic for losing only means you messed up. It's like (sorry for another PvP example) blaming nodes for losing conquest, because you play it like deathmatch.

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@Swagger.1459 said:Just remember that Downed mechanics are universal to all players. You may have been frustrated today by not killing them, but tomorrow it might be you benefiting from the same mechanics...

Pendulum swings both ways, and that's what many forget when providing suggestions about this topic.

Except the pendulum swings to the outnumbered group which already has the advantage anyways.

@rng.1024 said:Downstate already benefits the ones downing someone, but your method allows every profession 1 way to ress someone gated behind a cd and opponents 20 ways to cleave. Not bleeding out will not balance this, as we already cleave downed targets out. In todays game this gives us an opportunity to also cleave the one ressing - but this wouldn't happen anymore.

Why shouldn't it benefit the one downing someone? Makes no sense not to.

The video is a great example of why stomps are in the game, he had glint heal ready to go for it any time. He lost because of a warrior mechaninc he should have seen coming, and could cleave easy with hammer 5 while not pressured but didn't pay attention. If you get downed 1v1, the changes will do nothing. The whole point of the rally system relies on having an ally present, and even then there is counterplay if you down someone. The video is a poor example, because mara warrior, downed necro put out some of the biggest numbers in the game + there was another one there to boot. This is simply a misplay on the revenants part, as he could have outranged them all with hammer. You're not supposed to have it easier when facing more than 1 opponent. He had the opportunity to drive this home, but his decisionmaking messed up - a good player plays around the mechanics in place, blaming a mechanic for losing only means you messed up. It's like (sorry for another PvP example) blaming nodes for losing conquest, because you play it like deathmatch.

A 1v3 outskill shouldn't be lost to a stupid mechanics that favours the bigger group. It doesn't matter what 1v1 does, the point is that it benefits the bigger group creating snowball uppon snowball.

Why would anyone deserve to rally if they already got downed 1v3?

How would the rev have it eassier when he is facing 3 PEOPLE in the first place?

Why do you even want to talk about balancing outnumbers in the outnumbers favour when they are inherently favoured already by having more people?

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