condition builds require way more skill than cheesy power burst ones — Guild Wars 2 Forums

condition builds require way more skill than cheesy power burst ones

incisorr.9502incisorr.9502 Member ✭✭✭

I get insulted daily for playing a condi build for whatever reason. Condi mirage = get flamed, condi thief which i cant even play cus im not that good at thief = get flamed "CONDI THIEF NOOB LOL" , condi engi = get flamed.
It's always been like this and for some reason people try to "imply" that condi is lame or overpowered which is why they even call you out on it in the first place but in reality that's not even remotely the case ?
I was arguing in game that condi requires more skill cus you need to do 30 things to dwindle down your opponent and with power you just cheesily 1shot them before they can even react (revenant,guard, thief,reaper for example) and you know what some guy said ? "YOU CAN DODGE POWER BURSTS" LMAO BTW the intelligence on some players, cus apparently you can't dodge condition damage and apparently you're a prophet and know when a guy is going to power burst you out of stealth or with a teleport from a wall

The reason why CC is op and the reason why in turn based games playing things that deny your opponent from playing is op because not giving your enemy any chance to react is op and condition is literally the exact opposite of that -
~your enemy has all chances to react cus he can > cleanse, resistance, dodge. If you die to condi it happens over time and you have time to do something about it.
~Meanwhile against power - you can't cleanse power, you can't resistance power either and you can just dodge it if you even know its happening cus this game has enough of things to make it so that you don't know its happening . On top of that your teammates can cleanse conditions for you and you can even convert conditions into boons but your teammates CANT dodge for you against power and healing works against both types of damage. There are way more ways to shut down condition than there are ways to shut down power, there are way more power build players in top 50-100 of the ladder (actually would probably be 90%+ power against 10% condi at best)
on top of that there are unblockable hits which are usually power damage and most of the power damage skills don't require a target unlike condi ones (talking about wep skills directly)

against condi you can actually play the game and do things, against power half of the time you get oneshot if you get ganked or zerged and then you have 3000 people still whining about condi non-stop cause condi is a noob killer and cause it also punishes greedy builds and that's all there is to it

even in this forum the amount of condi mirage QQ is insane when in reality and in game playing power mirage is much easier than playing condi mirage lol. I can beat your condi mirage 95% of the time + (feel free to take me up on my challenge and see how far you get) but against power? there will be occasional duels where you just get a random 1shot burst to which it can't be reacted which literally proves my point, that it doesn't require as much skill to pull off

i'm not saying condi should be buffed, i'm saying power should be nerfed. It's ridiculous and its 10 times easier to play, most of the skills require no target, do way too much damage and have way too little counterplay . The "power creep" really hit gw2 hard imo cus over time they felt like they should add stronger and better new things and now we're stuck with 16k dmg backstabs out of stealth or 18k deaths judgements from 1500 range which is unblockable or 20k dmg bursts from guards who teleport thru 3 walls or revenant doing 20k dmg with shackling wave with daggers on , obviously after a tp thru 3 walls. Meanwhile if you drop 20 confusion stacks and 20 torment stacks on someone as a mesmer he can literally press one button to undo all of it and then for some reason it's still condi getting all the hate on the forum , simply because people make greedy builds and get punished for it

imo the only problematic condi is builds that can spam weakness (necro) cus weakness hard-counters power and it also counters dodges and in general everything in the game, it's too broken and now there are too many weaknesses thrown all over the place while a few years ago that was a "hard to get "debuff cus it was scarce but it was good so it felt more fair, now it's just spammed everywhere..

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Comments

  • incisorr.9502incisorr.9502 Member ✭✭✭

    @Liewec.2896 said:
    there are a butt load of counters to power damage,
    hell, even a base stat, Toughness reduces it, but does nothing to stop condi damage.
    Protection is widespread through the classes and reduces power damage by a large chunk, there is no similar boon for condis.
    Weakness is also common throughout classes and reduces power damage by a large chunk, there is no similar condition that reduces a players condi damage.
    plus there is no chance involved, you don't need to stack ferocity and precision in order to do damage because you don't need to rely on crits,
    if you click a skill that says it deals 8k burning damage, you don't need a lucky crit, that is the damage it will do.
    (unless cleansed or the target has one of the few instances of resistance)
    this lets you spec to be much more tanky, in order to deal immense damage as a power build you need to stack power, ferocity and precision
    so you are usually required to be a glass cannon.
    all it takes to deal high condi damage is the condi damage stat, leaving plenty of room for vitality, healing and toughness.

    if you go full condition dmg with 0 power you're not gonna kill anyone. I'm using wizard amulet instead deadshot one simply cause having + power is an absolute must , unless you want to get destroyed by a single guard in the enemy team

    there are many ways to reduce condi dmg as they added skills that reduce incoming condi dmg as passives or actives

    protection isn't widespread, AT ALL. Lol. It's limited to certain trait lines or a very few skills for most classes and most of these trait lines arent good apart from the protection, for most classes.

    You're required to be glass cannon? All power builds have room for protection or toughness. Even power mirage can have protection while condi one can't, unless you're playing chaos which is just not as good as the alternative

    @EthanLightheart.9168 said:
    Yeash scourges need so much skill.... omg come on

    yes it does, if you think it doesn't then come fight me in game while you play scourge

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    Dot and run will never be seen as skill

    yea cus cleanse doesn't exist right
    but stealth and 17k backstab is skilled right-o
    or pressing 2 on guard and doing 20k dmg with rng procs while having 21k hp , perma full boons and condi removal and retaliation

  • @incisorr.9502 said:
    ~Meanwhile against power - you can't cleanse power, you can't resistance power either and you can just dodge it

    let's make small comparision in here, shall we?

    Boons directly affecting incoming power damage:
    Protection: -33% incoming power damage
    Aegis: completely block next hit (reduces power damage to 0, unless lul unblockable)

    Boons directly affecting incoming condi damage:
    Resistance (ignore all condis)

    Debuffs directly affecting outgoing power damage:
    weakness
    blind

    Debuffs directly affecting outgoing condi damage:
    none.

    and that's on global level without even delving into profession specific gimmicks like full counter nullifying power damage to nothing for a hit....

    there is alot more active defences in game against power damage (and as pointed out - passive too - toughness reduces incoming damage while vitality gives you buffer to live throught it, while only vitality out of these two benefits survivability against condi.) So while at extreme certain power builds can achieve "one-combo-ko" in overal power build needs you to actively stay onto enemy to pressure it - while condi build let's you just come in once in a while, apply crapload of dots, and then disengage while still leaving pressure constantly applied unless enemy manage to cleanse or resistance it. Which is why some of players are not liking condi cheesers.

  • Skill is not determined by whether you go power of condition.

    It's determined by your exact complete build, gear and all, and the enemy you are facing.

  • I get where you coming from with this however its much easier to land condi burst with pof than core so to do 30 things is a bit of an over reaction.

    I mean facing a condi mariage i get about 14 stack confusion 8 torment constant blindness and 3 other stuff in a very short period...i wish i could do that with a core warrior when usings swords but the mech for flurry requires alot of hope that it will land its strikes and finish...even that only adds like 8 stack bleed only...

  • I thought I was having deja vu, til i realised the condi/power in this were the opposite way around.

  • whoknocks.4935whoknocks.4935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

    @incisorr.9502 said:
    ~Meanwhile against power - you can't cleanse power, you can't resistance power either and you can just dodge it

    let's make small comparision in here, shall we?

    Boons directly affecting incoming power damage:
    Protection: -33% incoming power damage
    Aegis: completely block next hit (reduces power damage to 0, unless lul unblockable)

    Boons directly affecting incoming condi damage:
    Resistance (ignore all condis)

    Debuffs directly affecting outgoing power damage:
    weakness
    blind

    Debuffs directly affecting outgoing condi damage:
    none.

    and that's on global level without even delving into profession specific gimmicks like full counter nullifying power damage to nothing for a hit....

    there is alot more active defences in game against power damage (and as pointed out - passive too - toughness reduces incoming damage while vitality gives you buffer to live throught it, while only vitality out of these two benefits survivability against condi.) So while at extreme certain power builds can achieve "one-combo-ko" in overal power build needs you to actively stay onto enemy to pressure it - while condi build let's you just come in once in a while, apply crapload of dots, and then disengage while still leaving pressure constantly applied unless enemy manage to cleanse or resistance it. Which is why some of players are not liking condi cheesers.

    So why if I'm blinded and try to land my skill which inflict condis it will say miss? Didn't you say no debuffs affecting condis?
    Aegis and blocks can prevent condis being applied to you, didn't you know that?
    There is no such thing like unblockable condis.

    Let's make a quick comparison of actual builds which are pure condi and not completely trash and works:
    1. Scourge.
    2. Condi mirage.

    Yeah, we are done... only 2 specs out of all specs works as condi.

    Condi thief is a meme build who got nerfed a lot and it's not a problem for good players, condi soulbeast doesn't exist even tho soulbeast seemed a condi focused spec, renegade works better in power than in condi even tho shortbow, burn guard meme build, berserker condi only good in pve, condi engi another meme build.

    Then you see the power meta builds:
    Holosmith
    Spellbreaker in 2 variants both power
    Shiro rev
    Core guard
    Thief daredevil or core or deadeye
    Boonbeast
    Reaper

    And i don't see personally the difference between a scourge spamming shades in mid and activating the F skills and a reaper who goes shroud in mid and spam shroud skills, probably reaper is actually easier to play and to get results with than scourge because without a firebrand scourge is paper.

    And same as power burst, condi burst can be avoided with dodges, blocks, evades, blinds and kiting, if you kite well a scourge you can kill him with 99% health remaining.

    People complain about condis because they are noob against condis.

    For example only good and experienced players know that if you have 2 skills:
    1. First skills says remove burn torment and poison.
    2. Second skill says remove 3 conditions.

    The right order to cleanse is before using the specific condi removing skill, so the first skill and only after the generic skill which removes 3 condis or maybe the generic one removes burn and torment leaving you chilled and crippled and the specific one remove only poison.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 6, 2018

    @incisorr.9502 said:
    i'm not saying condi should be buffed, i'm saying power should be nerfed. It's ridiculous and its 10 times easier to play

    You did not understand that it's about builds and not damage types.

    Condi mesmer is not broken because it applies condis but the type of condis (punishing movement and skill activation) while itself being extremely mobile and evasive. Opponents have to move and burst to counter it which is exactly what its specific condis do punish.

    Condi thief is just dot and run. It's the most lame and skill-less playstyle possible.

    Other condi specs - not even the infamous condi scourge - are really broken at the moment.

    I get insulted daily for playing a condi build for whatever reason. Condi mirage = get flamed, condi thief which i cant even play cus im not that good at thief = get flamed "CONDI THIEF NOOB LOL" , condi engi = get flamed

    Condi mesmer and condi thief have probably the lowest skill floor in the game and are in fact noob specs. Nevertheless I don't understand why you are getting flamed for playing condi engineer. Did I miss something that this spec is suddenly overpowered?

  • @whoknocks.4935 said:

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

    @incisorr.9502 said:
    ~Meanwhile against power - you can't cleanse power, you can't resistance power either and you can just dodge it

    let's make small comparision in here, shall we?

    Boons directly affecting incoming power damage:
    Protection: -33% incoming power damage
    Aegis: completely block next hit (reduces power damage to 0, unless lul unblockable)

    Boons directly affecting incoming condi damage:
    Resistance (ignore all condis)

    Debuffs directly affecting outgoing power damage:
    weakness
    blind

    Debuffs directly affecting outgoing condi damage:
    none.

    and that's on global level without even delving into profession specific gimmicks like full counter nullifying power damage to nothing for a hit....

    there is alot more active defences in game against power damage (and as pointed out - passive too - toughness reduces incoming damage while vitality gives you buffer to live throught it, while only vitality out of these two benefits survivability against condi.) So while at extreme certain power builds can achieve "one-combo-ko" in overal power build needs you to actively stay onto enemy to pressure it - while condi build let's you just come in once in a while, apply crapload of dots, and then disengage while still leaving pressure constantly applied unless enemy manage to cleanse or resistance it. Which is why some of players are not liking condi cheesers.

    So why if I'm blinded and try to land my skill which inflict condis it will say miss? Didn't you say no debuffs affecting condis?
    Aegis and blocks can prevent condis being applied to you, didn't you know that?

    directly affecting condis - the wording there was chosen very carefully ;)

    the big difference is that on power build if you blind just before big meaty hit you can nullify huge chunk of burst right there (same case for aegis).
    in comparision there is no such thing like "big meaty hit" for condi equivalent.

    also no Aegis nor blocks will affect condis already applied.

    There is no such thing like unblockable condis.

    if you want to argue all condis are unblockables - with advantage that certain boon makes you invulnerable to them.

    Let's make a quick comparison of actual builds which are pure condi and not completely trash and works:
    1. Scourge.
    2. Condi mirage.

    Oh common and didn't even mention Condi thiefs?
    geeze kids these days ;)

    Yeah, we are done... only 2 specs out of all specs works as condi.

    also condi guards used to be a thing, was kinda lakcluster tho in the past due to only one damaging condi which gets easilly countered by purging. condi firebrand is slightly better for having access to bleeds, and then hell, casuall 2k per tick burns.

    Condi thief is a meme build who got nerfed a lot and it's not a problem for good players,

    oh you didn't forget about condi thiefs ^-^
    here is a random bit of trivia for you - there was a time that on my randomly assembled guard build I was wreckign power thiefs easilly,and only tsruggled against condi thiefs - you know why? because first one required to be revealed to attack me while the other could just outcondi my cleanses (and had alot of them) and then mantain the condi pressure without even being in there anymore.

    Heck the only reason you have seen rise of power thief builds into relevance is due to certain builds being able to one-combo most classes - before that is was easilly counterable kitten - as opposed to condi thief.

    condi soulbeast doesn't exist even tho soulbeast seemed a condi focused spec,

    hybrid, not pure condi. Soulbeast has always had strenghts towards both power and condi.

    renegade works better in power than in condi even tho shortbow, burn guard meme build, berserker condi only good in pve, condi engi another meme build.

    didn't check on renegade won't comment on that one...
    OH COMMON

    you can't just discard every viable condi build aside from most broken ones as "meme builds" this is not how the game works.

    Then you see the power meta builds:
    Holosmith

    power spec

    Spellbreaker in 2 variants both power

    another power spec

    Shiro rev

    yup that's also power spec - also note in here is that "shiro rev" is not even singular build.....

    Core guard

    still can be build for hybrid/condi despite most famous one recently being popular for power combo

    Thief daredevil or core or deadeye

    not sure how for deadeye bu daredevil can be easilly build into condis - grab dual daggers, fit in lotus training grandmaster and see magic happen....

    Boonbeast

    won't comment on this one

    Reaper

    power spec again (the time of condi reaper was essentialy mistake)

    And i don't see personally the difference between a scourge spamming shades in mid and activating the F skills and a reaper who goes shroud in mid and spam shroud skills, probably reaper is actually easier to play and to get results with than scourge because without a firebrand scourge is paper.

    reaper is melee character, scourge has noticeably more range and area denial. Although Reaper has better sustain there both get countered by same tactic insPvP/small scale - by keeping them at arms lenght (or to put it into straight forward way instead of methaphores - by keeping them outside of their ranges - easilly doable by many sPvP builds and works just as well against both power reaper and condi scourge (btw I have heard many scourges shifted to hybrid recently) so this is not exacly perfect comparision out there)

    And same as power burst, condi burst can be avoided with dodges, blocks, evades, blinds and kiting, if you kite well a scourge you can kill him with 99% health remaining.

    I'd like to point out in here that "condi burst" is already something that was not supposed to happen by design - power was supposed to be bursty and condi is all about sustained damage over time.

    and big chunk of condi builds (including aforementioned condi thief) relies not on "burst" but on reapplying DoTs for constant pressure - which seems very easy on paper (and seems so easy that even I can pull that trick off to the point where only classes my condi thief is afraid of in 1v1 are either mesmers or can deliver great deal of punishment in melee range

    People complain about condis because they are noob against condis.

    and people complain about power because they are noob against power......

    but truth remains that good condi build can still have pressure applied to you long after dude applying pressure went off to the other side of sPvP map.

    For example only good and experienced players know that if you have 2 skills:
    1. First skills says remove burn torment and poison.
    2. Second skill says remove 3 conditions.

    The right order to cleanse is before using the specific condi removing skill, so the first skill and only after the generic skill which removes 3 condis or maybe the generic one removes burn and torment leaving you chilled and crippled and the specific one remove only poison.

    I'll disagree in here - everyone capable of logical thinking will know what is the "proper" order of using these two skills in cases where you have crapload of everything on you - what needs experience/skills in this aspect is ability to execute - less experienced players tend to panic and misclick skills in situation of great danger (and having pretty much every condi on you usually is one of those situations.

    And I still believe you are greatly underapreciating counters toward power damage and still am of opinion that your (very broad and risky while at it) thesis of condi builds requiring more skill to pull off sucessfully is untrue.

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    Condi mesmer and condi thief have probably the lowest skill floor in the game and are in fact noob specs. Nevertheless I don't understand why you are getting flamed for playing condi engineer. Did I miss something that this spec is suddenly overpowered?

    GUILTY AS CHARGED!
    I only made that condi daredevil for ezy OPIE roamin' in WvW!
    unfortunatelly I made it just one expac late prolly, since alot of PoF especs are rolling my face off when I try to melee them :/

    buuuut hey looking on the bright side dagger storm is evade frame now- I can finally pursue my dream of perma evade non-stealth thief build \o/

    as for condi engineers......

    wait a moment?

    THERE IS SUCH THING LIKE CONDI ENGINEER?!

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    Dot and run will never be seen as skill

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    Skill is not determined by whether you go power of condition.

    It's determined by your exact complete build, gear and all, and the enemy you are facing.

    I'm skilled...

    I see someone like Vallun doing a 2v1, I go in and +3 to last hit him, I beat Vallun. I am Skilled.

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    CLICK HERE FOR A FREE SCREEN CLEANING SERVICE
    I miss PvP....

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    Dot and run will never be seen as skill

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    Skill is not determined by whether you go power of condition.

    It's determined by your exact complete build, gear and all, and the enemy you are facing.

    I'm skilled...

    I see someone like Vallun doing a 2v1, I go in and +3 to last hit him, I beat Vallun. I am Skilled.

    crop everyone out, or angle the camera just right. then post on the forums and brag

  • Literally nothing in this game requires skill.

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2018

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    Dot and run will never be seen as skill

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    Skill is not determined by whether you go power of condition.

    It's determined by your exact complete build, gear and all, and the enemy you are facing.

    I'm skilled...

    I see someone like Vallun doing a 2v1, I go in and +3 to last hit him, I beat Vallun. I am Skilled.

    crop everyone out, or angle the camera just right. then post on the forums and brag

    It was easiest 1v1 of my life, he went down in one hit!

    Sorry @Vallun.2071 , you've been outskilled.

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    CLICK HERE FOR A FREE SCREEN CLEANING SERVICE
    I miss PvP....

  • Tiah.3091Tiah.3091 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2018

    Idk, speaking for ALL THE CONDI BUILDS in a single post is kinda wrong.

    1) There are builds, which apply long multiple conditions with very limited amount of stacks. Like Scourge, for example.
    It's harder to cleanse, because there are really a lot of them and cleanse is usually 1-2 condi at a time. But at least it won't kill you outright - you have plenty of time to deal with it or run away.
    2) There are builds, which apply a single but very powerful condition, like burning. Like Firebrand for example. But they can reapply it quite easily after cleanse and the stack amount is high. So you have to cleanse constantly.
    3) And finally, there's condi mirage, who can apply a HUGE amount of stacks of VARIOUS conditions (like 10-15 stacks of confusion, 10-15 bleed, 10-15 torment and 3-6 burning, depending on a build). All 4 at the same time. Albeit, for a VERY short time (1-3 seconds usually).
    Which in fact is kinda kitten HARD to cleanse (because the important condies are protected by other condies - same as Scourge, but shorter duration and more intense)
    Which results, basically, in a CONDI BURST.
    2 ticks of confusion for 3k each, 2 ticks of burning for 1k each, 2 ticks of torment for 2k each, 2 ticks of bleeding for 1.5k each. And BOOM! -- SUDDENLY target loses 15k hp (unmitigated by toughness/protection/weakness) in a matter of 2 seconds.

    My point, is that condi cleanse in its current state (where most cleanses are 1-2 stacks at a time) is not SUPER effective at countering mirage condi-burst.

    Also, add there's another important factor, that a decent percentage of condi mirages are not in fact pure condi, but are instead HYBRIDS. Who are also capable of quite a nice power damage with crits and whatnot. ON TOP of that 15k per 2s condi-burst bomb.
    Scepter-3 with Viper amu hits for 8k on light armor. Yeah, it's easy to dodge and all that, but 8k is not a kitten joke.

    The only reliable counter to power mirage condi-bombs is extremely well-placed resistance. And killing clones as fast as possible. And not all builds out there have that.

  • whoknocks.4935whoknocks.4935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    When I mentioned holosmith, boonbeast, spellbreaker, shiro rev, core guard.
    All those are power specs who dominates the meta, the only 2 condi specs are scourge and mirage.

    Scourge and mirage received quite a bit of nerfs and tune downs, things like condi thief completely shifted out from the meta, and now power damage dominates, and it's far from being more skilled gameplay, because when an holo can spam autos for 3k-4k you understand something is wrong.

    And about condi burst, you get condi bursted only if you eat multiple skills at the same time, for example if you stand still inside shades don't dodge out of it, it's normal you get punished, what do you expect to receive only 1 stack of torment and poison which vanish in 3 seconds?

    Same as you dodge power damage, now dodge condi burst as well.
    But if you think holo cc spam and 3k autos are somewhat skilled gameplay to pull off maybe we play a different game.

  • @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    Dot and run will never be seen as skill

    yea cus cleanse doesn't exist right
    but stealth and 17k backstab is skilled right-o
    or pressing 2 on guard and doing 20k dmg with rng procs while having 21k hp , perma full boons and condi removal and retaliation

    so no one has skill. we just all mash our keyboards. mashity mash mash.....mash mash

    why mash keyboard with your fingers, just roll your face over it

  • rank eleven monk.9502rank eleven monk.9502 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2018

    We had the exact same threads the other way around during condi meta OMEGALUL

    Circle of life

  • @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    Dot and run will never be seen as skill

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    Skill is not determined by whether you go power of condition.

    It's determined by your exact complete build, gear and all, and the enemy you are facing.

    I'm skilled...

    I see someone like Vallun doing a 2v1, I go in and +3 to last hit him, I beat Vallun. I am Skilled.

    Yes. That's part of the rotation tactics that win matches, keep points controlled by your team by maintaining an advantage over the enemy. That is , indeed, skill. It's called "tactical awareness" by some "opportunism" by others. But it gets you points, and points get you a win. So it is skill, if you win the match thanks to it.

  • tinyreborn.1938tinyreborn.1938 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2018

    @Tiah.3091 said:
    2 ticks of confusion for 3k each, 2 ticks of burning for 1k each, 2 ticks of torment for 2k each, 2 ticks of bleeding for 1.5k each. And BOOM! -- SUDDENLY target loses 15k hp (unmitigated by toughness/protection/weakness) in a matter of 2 seconds.

    Was that on raid boss ? Otherwise how do you land 20 torment/20 bleed/20 confusions/3-4 burns instant?

    My point, is that condi cleanse in its current state (where most cleanses are 1-2 stacks at a time) is not SUPER effective at countering mirage condi-burst.

    Where did go those cleanses that remove 3-5 or every single condition ? Stealthremoved or you prefer to not mention it?

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I just wonder when and how condi ENGIE gets flamed? o.O

    I dream of elves in GW2.

  • Wow, here we go again. Are we really going to defend the effectiveness of Condi vs. Power? Folks, you do realize that the OP has a point here. Perhaps using Condi Mirage for his argument doesn't do him any favors, but he does have a point that Power builds do not require combos to land in order for them to be effective and to be more effective than Condi builds.

    Case in point, the difference between Ranger greatsword and dagger. Autoattack on GS, hefty damage, and depending on the runes and amulets you use, can do up to 3-5k damage. From a single hit. Autoattack chain on Dagger, while applies three different Condis, not all are damaging Condis and can be cleared. Base damage on Dagger is significantly lower to off-set the amount of Condis it can land on an opponent. But, the point is that it can be cleared. Not to mention, the cancer spam that is Maul and if you successfully land the daze on GS 5, it's replenished. And it can hit multiple enemies within a small radius. But that is a discussion for another time.

    Another example is Ranger longbow and shortbow. Have you ever wondered why people hate using shortbow in PVP? Despite its utility (evade, immob and cripple, stun), it just doesn't deal damage quickly enough to down an opponent. Its AA can stack bleeding pretty high, but once again, it can be cleared. Traits in Skirmishing are absolutely needed to make its bleeds dangerous enough for the opponent to worry about cleansing it. Otherwise, shortbow is hardly ever a worry in PVP. Longbow, on the other hand, coupled with Quickening Zephyr and a healthy dose of One Wolf pack, can down an opponent within four seconds or less. Yes, it can blocked or dodged, but now opponents have wasted their blocks and dodges only to be knocked back, Autoattacked, and barraged. Now, my point here is that Longbow can deal enough damage without using Quickening Zephyr and One Wolf Pack, but with the two skills, it is nearly unstoppable.

    Now, for any Condi weapon to be viable, it needs to have specific runes and amulets in place that will increase the damage of the Condis and the base damage of the weapons. Power weapons don't need that. No one can argue that power weapons need combos to win fights. Because their base damage can defeat Condi damage at any time of the day.

    What people complain about is Condi burst, which Condi Mirages excel at. But, not all classes have access to Condi burst and definitely not as many Condis as Mirages do. Multiple stacks of multiple conditions cannot function as Damage Over Time, which is what Condi is supposed to be. What should be nerfed is the burst, not the conditions themselves (though I would take another look at confusion and torment, like what the fudgenuts are those). And I think that's what most players fail to realize.

    Well, if you reached the end of my rant, thank you for taking the time to read it. I'd give you a cookie, but unfortunately, I've eaten them all.

  • jportell.2197jportell.2197 Member ✭✭✭

    @malisivo.5264 said:
    Wow, here we go again. Are we really going to defend the effectiveness of Condi vs. Power? Folks, you do realize that the OP has a point here. Perhaps using Condi Mirage for his argument doesn't do him any favors, but he does have a point that Power builds do not require combos to land in order for them to be effective and to be more effective than Condi builds.

    Case in point, the difference between Ranger greatsword and dagger. Autoattack on GS, hefty damage, and depending on the runes and amulets you use, can do up to 3-5k damage. From a single hit. Autoattack chain on Dagger, while applies three different Condis, not all are damaging Condis and can be cleared. Base damage on Dagger is significantly lower to off-set the amount of Condis it can land on an opponent. But, the point is that it can be cleared. Not to mention, the cancer spam that is Maul and if you successfully land the daze on GS 5, it's replenished. And it can hit multiple enemies within a small radius. But that is a discussion for another time.

    Another example is Ranger longbow and shortbow. Have you ever wondered why people hate using shortbow in PVP? Despite its utility (evade, immob and cripple, stun), it just doesn't deal damage quickly enough to down an opponent. Its AA can stack bleeding pretty high, but once again, it can be cleared. Traits in Skirmishing are absolutely needed to make its bleeds dangerous enough for the opponent to worry about cleansing it. Otherwise, shortbow is hardly ever a worry in PVP. Longbow, on the other hand, coupled with Quickening Zephyr and a healthy dose of One Wolf pack, can down an opponent within four seconds or less. Yes, it can blocked or dodged, but now opponents have wasted their blocks and dodges only to be knocked back, Autoattacked, and barraged. Now, my point here is that Longbow can deal enough damage without using Quickening Zephyr and One Wolf Pack, but with the two skills, it is nearly unstoppable.

    Now, for any Condi weapon to be viable, it needs to have specific runes and amulets in place that will increase the damage of the Condis and the base damage of the weapons. Power weapons don't need that. No one can argue that power weapons need combos to win fights. Because their base damage can defeat Condi damage at any time of the day.

    What people complain about is Condi burst, which Condi Mirages excel at. But, not all classes have access to Condi burst and definitely not as many Condis as Mirages do. Multiple stacks of multiple conditions cannot function as Damage Over Time, which is what Condi is supposed to be. What should be nerfed is the burst, not the conditions themselves (though I would take another look at confusion and torment, like what the fudgenuts are those). And I think that's what most players fail to realize.

    Well, if you reached the end of my rant, thank you for taking the time to read it. I'd give you a cookie, but unfortunately, I've eaten them all.

    What's funny is I have literally had players stow weapons and stand there after they take a condi burst from me on my mirage. It barely tickles them. And almost all conditions from a mirage are a pretty short duration. Confusion especially is something like 4 seconds at its longest in PvP.

    If you're in a 1v1 with a mirage and don't dodge their burst. Stow weapons and stand for 2-3 seconds. And you'll be fine.

    So many people just spam through their skill bar trying to lock down the mirage. If they stopped for a few seconds they'd be fine.

  • Alatar.7364Alatar.7364 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @incisorr.9502 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:
    Can't believe what I just endured reading.
    Do you realize that by those deceptions, half-truths and alibism you are using to defend something you love, something that everybody knows (and proven) to be totally broken, you are hurting the game? You are intentionaly damaging the community by desperately trying to keep something that is so unhealthy.
    I am gonna go ahead and guess this is all because you main Condi Mirage and you can't put up with the fact that most people already figured out there is almost no skill involved and you simply freaked out when you faced that reality.
    I originally made a long post adressing enterity of your Post but I realized there is so so so so much wrong with your post with so much personal bias in it, that I canceled it as it would be totally pointless arguing.

    You're saying i post half - truths? How about some facts then

    In top 20 of the last season there are only 3 (three) condi players , one of which plays duo and plays the minimum number of games just to sit at #1 and is a scourge, then there's a mesmer (me) and another scourge unless he played reaper at some point. If condi was so good then people would play it but nobody at high elo does. In the majority of the games im the only condi player in ranked
    in unranked it's the same xcept there are occasionally other mirages who probably read the forum and read people with ludicrous and aggressive opinions that are completely baseless such as yours so they thought mirage must be so broken and then they decide to try it and i 1v2 them easily while they have another legendary player with them who i even struggle to 1v1 against but whether i 1v1 a legendary soulbeast or a soulbeast + a not-very-good mirage it's pretty much the same cause the mirage dies for free to me and then i'll need a healing rotation perhaps to stabilize my cooldowns to reset the fight vs the other player

    not-very-good mirages are among the easiest to kill people for me

    so you're telling me i'm ruining the game and damaging the community but you're literally posting bs out of thin air and out of your kitten while i'm posting with experience that you can look up right now in game yourself. I can name you all the players (based on account names) and what classes they play in case you don't know them and if mirage was so "braindead and broken" people would play it because the majority of people reroll to whats op and play whats op and don't stick to a class out of loyalty (like some do, like i have done for the most part in all games i've played)

    I don't even do wvw but condi builds arent even a thing in wvw just cause condi is so easily countered because your teammates can cleanse your conditions(ppl literally play POWER scourge, lmao) but they can't cleanse 20k unblockable thief stealth attacks from 1500 range or a guard 1shotting you with judge combo or a revenant or even a darn warrior doing 8k dmg counter into 8k arcing slice lmao btw, oh yeah or my personal favorite a soulbeast doing 18k dmg with worldly impact with marauder amulet (not even zerker) while having 23k+ hp with perma protection uptime (which also reduces condi damage) ayyyYy half-truths btw

    and again, i mentioned this earlier - why does every ignorant player overlook the fact that condi builds also run 2k power so it's not just condi its literally a hybrid build..?

    im runnin 35% crit rate with fury uptime (so 55%) with 2k power and you're going to come here with full ignorance and say its a condi build when i get 7k scepter confusing images alone on some people (combine it with shatters and autos and counters it gets even higher)

    1) I am talking Condi Mirage, not Condi in general, because I could smell by miles away that your post is based purely about your cries of "Mirage not as OP as it was so now I can see how little I actually achieved".
    2) Historically speaking LBs never represented whether profession is OP or not, not to mention Condi Mirage is not there because it carries players in solo, but for duo players choose better comps and those are the ones that are in LB. Also, players in LB use to keep their post with Mirage when theirs not Duo on, even though it's not their main which alone speaks for how little effort it requires.
    3) Hybrids are even worse, you got both Condi and Direct on very high level while having the same defense as normal direct. While with Condi only, you can happily have two defensive stats or one major defensive with major condi, so difficult, huh.
    4) It seems to me that you are trying to pretend there are so few Condi Mirages, that's a new worse lie I've ever heard. I never have less than two and never had even during season, nor did any single of the people I know or spoke with.

    ~ I Aear cân ven na mar

  • tinyreborn.1938tinyreborn.1938 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2018

    @Abazigal.3679 said:
    Totally wrong. You have to consider a few things :

    • Condition builds mostly can do multi jobs at same time , i.e hold point, have sustain, and have huge damage thanks to condi

    Right now, this isn't a skill question, but it's really hard to play a full burst build in this meta, whereas probably any average joe can expect good results running a condition build. You get the proof of this where a lot of players who have no idea how to play capture points managed to climb with scourge or mirage.

    Im confused . If you claim condi builds to be absurdly OP doing million things at once. Why among condi builds viable only scourge(with pocket firebrand) and mirage?
    Where all those broken condi soulbeasts ,berserkers etc?

    • There are many passive/traits that will prevent the full burst to down the player. Note that there isn't a single passive that will prevent you from dying to conditions.

    You mean only endure pain and reflexes? Elixir working for both damage types. Passive transmute, shrug it off , cleansing fire automatically remove conditions . Death prevention traits work on both damage types.

    • Full burst builds ( i'm talking about builds such as zerker thief or old 100b war) are usually totally speced in order to land a big spike that will down the target in 3-5 seconds, which means they will generally have literraly 0 defense

    What builds you talking about ? Now we have holos/soulbeasts/spb that basically bunkers with zerk damage (quotted one guy after he returned to the game after a break xD)

  • whoknocks.4935whoknocks.4935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @malisivo.5264 said:
    Wow, here we go again. Are we really going to defend the effectiveness of Condi vs. Power? Folks, you do realize that the OP has a point here. Perhaps using Condi Mirage for his argument doesn't do him any favors, but he does have a point that Power builds do not require combos to land in order for them to be effective and to be more effective than Condi builds.

    Case in point, the difference between Ranger greatsword and dagger. Autoattack on GS, hefty damage, and depending on the runes and amulets you use, can do up to 3-5k damage. From a single hit. Autoattack chain on Dagger, while applies three different Condis, not all are damaging Condis and can be cleared. Base damage on Dagger is significantly lower to off-set the amount of Condis it can land on an opponent. But, the point is that it can be cleared. Not to mention, the cancer spam that is Maul and if you successfully land the daze on GS 5, it's replenished. And it can hit multiple enemies within a small radius. But that is a discussion for another time.

    Another example is Ranger longbow and shortbow. Have you ever wondered why people hate using shortbow in PVP? Despite its utility (evade, immob and cripple, stun), it just doesn't deal damage quickly enough to down an opponent. Its AA can stack bleeding pretty high, but once again, it can be cleared. Traits in Skirmishing are absolutely needed to make its bleeds dangerous enough for the opponent to worry about cleansing it. Otherwise, shortbow is hardly ever a worry in PVP. Longbow, on the other hand, coupled with Quickening Zephyr and a healthy dose of One Wolf pack, can down an opponent within four seconds or less. Yes, it can blocked or dodged, but now opponents have wasted their blocks and dodges only to be knocked back, Autoattacked, and barraged. Now, my point here is that Longbow can deal enough damage without using Quickening Zephyr and One Wolf Pack, but with the two skills, it is nearly unstoppable.

    Now, for any Condi weapon to be viable, it needs to have specific runes and amulets in place that will increase the damage of the Condis and the base damage of the weapons. Power weapons don't need that. No one can argue that power weapons need combos to win fights. Because their base damage can defeat Condi damage at any time of the day.

    What people complain about is Condi burst, which Condi Mirages excel at. But, not all classes have access to Condi burst and definitely not as many Condis as Mirages do. Multiple stacks of multiple conditions cannot function as Damage Over Time, which is what Condi is supposed to be. What should be nerfed is the burst, not the conditions themselves (though I would take another look at confusion and torment, like what the fudgenuts are those). And I think that's what most players fail to realize.

    Well, if you reached the end of my rant, thank you for taking the time to read it. I'd give you a cookie, but unfortunately, I've eaten them all.

    Most of the times the condi burst comes from pressing keys while having 20 stacks or plus confusion.
    And it's the same when an holo use holo#5 and CC you because you don't dodge and he melts you immediately one second later, or if you fail to dodge bull's charge and get punished.
    You can avoid being condi bursted using blocks, evades, or dodging at the right time.
    Bad players are not used to it in low leagues, they panic and random dodge and get punished.

    Trust me if you face a noob mirage he won't be able to kill you if you are a better player and know dodges, instead in many cases a pretty bad average holo can still have great chances at killing you.
    I fought an holo in wvw he managed to use 5 kitten elixir s during a single fight and recover back up, if that is not being carried I dunno what is it xD

    You have no idea how many players i encounter in wvw even using good build and high rank who random dodge if i use axe mirage autoattack at 900 or plus range, it's a melee attack and they see the purple animation and waste 1 or 2 dodges random, and they get punished immediately after because i land my shatters and axe2 no problem.

    Timing the condi burst on good opponent is way harder than timing power damage.
    Opposite rule, it's easier to apply a condi burst to a noob or bad player more than power burst.

    For example a bad player facing a scourge will die always in 1vs1, if you are a good player even with zero condi cleanses you can 100-0 a scourge avoiding shades dodging out of it, avoiding the elite, blocking at the right time, and immediately stunbreak when you get CC.

    I don't necessarily think condi is more skill based than power, they are both equal.
    But even when people were crying about condi fiesta pvp, there was only scourge and mirage, some random condi thief too, but power always been predominant over condi, they were talking like every single profession were condi... condi spellbreaker, condi firebrand, condi ranger, condi core guard...

  • some condi builds are cheese just like some power builds are easy to get results with. it really comes down to build+skill vs. build+skill.

  • whoknocks.4935whoknocks.4935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    some condi builds are cheese just like some power builds are easy to get results with. it really comes down to build+skill vs. build+skill.

    Why a build which works it's cheese?

  • tinyreborn.1938tinyreborn.1938 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2018

    @whoknocks.4935 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    some condi builds are cheese just like some power builds are easy to get results with. it really comes down to build+skill vs. build+skill.

    Why a build which works it's cheese?

    Because if you land full confusion combo people (bad ones) self destruct 100-0 instead of use 'cleanse everything' button or stop using skills ? But they come to forum to create 1 million threads about it

  • incisorr.9502incisorr.9502 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2018

    @Abazigal.3679 said:
    Right now, this isn't a skill question, but it's really hard to play a full burst build in this meta, whereas probably any average joe can expect good results running a condition build. You get the proof of this where a lot of players who have no idea how to play capture points managed to climb with scourge or mirage.

    where are those climbers with scourge and mirage?

    didn't i literally just tell you there is only one scourge and one mirage in top 20

    what are you people even smoking lmao
    , the other 17 people play power builds and prolly 10 of them have ferocity in the build as well (cus 1 is the duo+guy)

    why is this forum so full of trolls

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2018

    @Abazigal.3679 said:

    • Full burst builds ( i'm talking about builds such as zerker thief or old 100b war) are usually totally speced in order to land a big spike that will down the target in 3-5 seconds, which means they will generally have literraly 0 defense

    which means they will generally have literraly 0 defense

    which means they will generally have literraly 0 defense

    which means they will generally have literraly 0 defense
    which means they ...
    .....

    Cough cough....
    Hopefully you talk about old builds because actually every direct damage meta build have High damage and pretty good defense too. :)

    That said, about the discussion :

    let's make small comparision in here, shall we?

    Boons directly affecting incoming power damage:
    Protection: -33% incoming power damage
    Aegis: completely block next hit (reduces power damage to 0, unless lul unblockable)

    Boons directly affecting incoming condi damage:
    Resistance (ignore all condis)

    Debuffs directly affecting outgoing power damage:
    weakness
    blind

    Debuffs directly affecting outgoing condi damage:
    none.

    and that's on global level without even delving into profession specific gimmicks like full counter nullifying power damage to nothing for a hit....

    As @whoknocks.4935 said :

    Aegis affect condi application same way than power application.
    Same for blind.
    Same for full counter.

    The list is more like :
    Boon :
    condi : resistance.
    power : protection.

    Condi :
    power : weakness.

    Aaaannnd condi can be evaded the same way as power sources and can be clean (and there is way more clean than weakness application.)

    And finally, there's condi mirage, who can apply a HUGE amount of stacks of VARIOUS conditions (like 10-15 stacks of confusion, 10-15 bleed, 10-15 torment and 3-6 burning, depending on a build). All 4 at the same time.

    Where is this op button who put all 4 at the same time ?

    something that everybody knows (and proven) to be totally broken

    It's more than every casuals don't want to run condiclear and evade condi attacks. (Btw I don't care they died as much versus power or condi.)

  • Sampson.2403Sampson.2403 Member ✭✭✭

    @jportell.2197 said:

    @malisivo.5264 said:
    Wow, here we go again. Are we really going to defend the effectiveness of Condi vs. Power? Folks, you do realize that the OP has a point here. Perhaps using Condi Mirage for his argument doesn't do him any favors, but he does have a point that Power builds do not require combos to land in order for them to be effective and to be more effective than Condi builds.

    Case in point, the difference between Ranger greatsword and dagger. Autoattack on GS, hefty damage, and depending on the runes and amulets you use, can do up to 3-5k damage. From a single hit. Autoattack chain on Dagger, while applies three different Condis, not all are damaging Condis and can be cleared. Base damage on Dagger is significantly lower to off-set the amount of Condis it can land on an opponent. But, the point is that it can be cleared. Not to mention, the cancer spam that is Maul and if you successfully land the daze on GS 5, it's replenished. And it can hit multiple enemies within a small radius. But that is a discussion for another time.

    Another example is Ranger longbow and shortbow. Have you ever wondered why people hate using shortbow in PVP? Despite its utility (evade, immob and cripple, stun), it just doesn't deal damage quickly enough to down an opponent. Its AA can stack bleeding pretty high, but once again, it can be cleared. Traits in Skirmishing are absolutely needed to make its bleeds dangerous enough for the opponent to worry about cleansing it. Otherwise, shortbow is hardly ever a worry in PVP. Longbow, on the other hand, coupled with Quickening Zephyr and a healthy dose of One Wolf pack, can down an opponent within four seconds or less. Yes, it can blocked or dodged, but now opponents have wasted their blocks and dodges only to be knocked back, Autoattacked, and barraged. Now, my point here is that Longbow can deal enough damage without using Quickening Zephyr and One Wolf Pack, but with the two skills, it is nearly unstoppable.

    Now, for any Condi weapon to be viable, it needs to have specific runes and amulets in place that will increase the damage of the Condis and the base damage of the weapons. Power weapons don't need that. No one can argue that power weapons need combos to win fights. Because their base damage can defeat Condi damage at any time of the day.

    What people complain about is Condi burst, which Condi Mirages excel at. But, not all classes have access to Condi burst and definitely not as many Condis as Mirages do. Multiple stacks of multiple conditions cannot function as Damage Over Time, which is what Condi is supposed to be. What should be nerfed is the burst, not the conditions themselves (though I would take another look at confusion and torment, like what the fudgenuts are those). And I think that's what most players fail to realize.

    Well, if you reached the end of my rant, thank you for taking the time to read it. I'd give you a cookie, but unfortunately, I've eaten them all.

    What's funny is I have literally had players stow weapons and stand there after they take a condi burst from me on my mirage. It barely tickles them. And almost all conditions from a mirage are a pretty short duration. Confusion especially is something like 4 seconds at its longest in PvP.

    If you're in a 1v1 with a mirage and don't dodge their burst. Stow weapons and stand for 2-3 seconds. And you'll be fine.

    So many people just spam through their skill bar trying to lock down the mirage. If they stopped for a few seconds they'd be fine.

    Exactly. I'll bet everyone that complains about condi mirage doesn't have a stow weapon hotkey and probably runs during torment.

    If you're struggling against condi mirage just make it a point to focus on stowing weapon and not moving when you are inflicted by confusion & torrment. It feels unnatural and clunky to fight this way at first, just gotta practice it.

    Then the next thing to learn vs condi mirage is when to clear condis vs waiting them out and when to try and land damage and limiting blowing offensive cooldowns into mirage cloak, distortion and blurred frenzy. This really just boils down to timing and counting the condi mirages cooldowns/vigor.

    Obviously everything that ive written is much harder for a less experienced pvper to do than a good pvper which is why condi mirage typically smashes noobs and gets so many forum complaints.

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