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RIP weapon swapping in rotation

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  • kasoki.5180kasoki.5180 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 9, 2018

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @kasoki.5180 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    There is a change. Now if you dpnt have time for swap and you swap you suffer. But if you have and dont you suffer too. After this chamge there is almost 0 punischment for just camping shield and swaping/not swaping for that specific encounter.

    Clone generation? Dps? Blocks? I mean, you currently need to have 3 clones for your CS to maximise quickness uptime. If your Echo of Memory/Deja Vu fails you are in a bit of a pickle

    I play T4 with no sigil of concentration. Have 100% boon uptime. And yes I have to swap weapons.

    No. You need one clone man. Why do you need 3 clones??? You can cast tides of time, signet of inspiration, well of action, mimic (and all shatters if you time correctly) in one clone cs. Those are all your quickness and alacrity spells so you dont get better uptime if you have longer cs. In fact you will have less uptime because you lose those few seconds you are in cs when you dont need to be.

    And yes, you can swap to increese dps or to get specific spell but it will not affect your quickness and alacrity generation. Right now you need to chose if you swap for boons or swap for damage/cc/pulls...(if you dont plan your swaps to be there when swaping for boon duration).

    Truth is, after this change you can be lazy and camp one set without losing any boons.

    Well of Action - Mimic - Signet of Inspiration - Time Warp - Signet of Inspiration - Tides of Time

    If you can cast all of those in one clone CS you are pro and a magician. I know I need more than one clone to do that. Having a "free" second weapon can really help with that.

    Also, you can press your F5 whenever you want, you dont need to be in CS any longer than you need

  • Pyroatheist.9031Pyroatheist.9031 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kasoki.5180 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @kasoki.5180 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    There is a change. Now if you dpnt have time for swap and you swap you suffer. But if you have and dont you suffer too. After this chamge there is almost 0 punischment for just camping shield and swaping/not swaping for that specific encounter.

    Clone generation? Dps? Blocks? I mean, you currently need to have 3 clones for your CS to maximise quickness uptime. If your Echo of Memory/Deja Vu fails you are in a bit of a pickle

    I play T4 with no sigil of concentration. Have 100% boon uptime. And yes I have to swap weapons.

    No. You need one clone man. Why do you need 3 clones??? You can cast tides of time, signet of inspiration, well of action, mimic (and all shatters if you time correctly) in one clone cs. Those are all your quickness and alacrity spells so you dont get better uptime if you have longer cs. In fact you will have less uptime because you lose those few seconds you are in cs when you dont need to be.

    And yes, you can swap to increese dps or to get specific spell but it will not affect your quickness and alacrity generation. Right now you need to chose if you swap for boons or swap for damage/cc/pulls...(if you dont plan your swaps to be there when swaping for boon duration).

    Truth is, after this change you can be lazy and camp one set without losing any boons.

    Well of Action - Mimic - Signet of Inspiration - Time Warp - Signet of Inspiration - Tides of Time

    If you can cast all of those in one clone CS you are pro and a magician. I know I need more than one clone to do that. Having a "free" second weapon can really help with that.

    Also, you can press your F5 whenever you want, you dont need to be in CS any longer than you need

    It's not that hard to do. Plus, casting well of action and time warp in a CS is useless. Choose one, not both.

    Ohey, I've got a signature

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 10, 2018

    @kasoki.5180 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @kasoki.5180 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    There is a change. Now if you dpnt have time for swap and you swap you suffer. But if you have and dont you suffer too. After this chamge there is almost 0 punischment for just camping shield and swaping/not swaping for that specific encounter.

    Clone generation? Dps? Blocks? I mean, you currently need to have 3 clones for your CS to maximise quickness uptime. If your Echo of Memory/Deja Vu fails you are in a bit of a pickle

    I play T4 with no sigil of concentration. Have 100% boon uptime. And yes I have to swap weapons.

    No. You need one clone man. Why do you need 3 clones??? You can cast tides of time, signet of inspiration, well of action, mimic (and all shatters if you time correctly) in one clone cs. Those are all your quickness and alacrity spells so you dont get better uptime if you have longer cs. In fact you will have less uptime because you lose those few seconds you are in cs when you dont need to be.

    And yes, you can swap to increese dps or to get specific spell but it will not affect your quickness and alacrity generation. Right now you need to chose if you swap for boons or swap for damage/cc/pulls...(if you dont plan your swaps to be there when swaping for boon duration).

    Truth is, after this change you can be lazy and camp one set without losing any boons.

    Well of Action - Mimic - Signet of Inspiration - Time Warp - Signet of Inspiration - Tides of Time

    If you can cast all of those in one clone CS you are pro and a magician. I know I need more than one clone to do that. Having a "free" second weapon can really help with that.

    Also, you can press your F5 whenever you want, you dont need to be in CS any longer than you need

    1) you dont need to cast second signet of inspiration in cs. You just end with with mimic and cast soi as a first ultility after cs ends.
    2) If you have timewarp then you run dissenchanter in raids most of the times.

    So cs looks like this: tides of time, signet of inspiration, well of action/timewarp, mimic. Cs ends
    Signet, w8 till you have less then 3 sec on swap, well (if you have it), tides, swap, phantasm ether phantasm mimic, swap signet signet.

    And also dont forget that most of power dps builds open with burst combo and you want to make sure they have all buffs as fast as possible. That is why 1 clone cs is important. (2 clone cs in fractals since you use staff there but you also need to start with one more spell usualy (moa))

    Edit: and even with all spells you listed you only need 2 clones and still have plenty of time for another spell(s)

  • @apharma.3741 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @tinyreborn.1938 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Well. You said that dps doesnt matter as chrono. It does. 10 k vs 2.5 k dps is 4 times more. Tell me what is better.
    Both commander and minstrel provide same concentration. Why is minstrel bezter if commander brings more damage and minstrel nothing that is worth it?
    And lastly, i have a brain. In fact my IQ makes me statisticaly a genius. Sorry if my post was too clever for you.

    Your post tell otherwise . Compare warrior banners that unaffected by gear and chrono that does . Especially hilarious that you think BS taken for banners only
    Dont bring your low IQ into discussion if you dont understand what I disliked in quoted post that wasn't addressed for you

    Its interesting that sigur clearly saw my point.
    As I said, dps in minstrel is ~2.5k. Dps in minmaxed build is ~10k. Show me a dps class that is considered good if you take away 7.5k dps.
    The main reason why bs is taken is banners. Without banners, warrior wouldnt be taken. It is true that for banners, you dont need stats. They would work with any gear (as my magi example). It is true that if chrono have minstrel gear now, you provide boons. Interesting is that you provide same boons if you have full commander. Even more interesting fact. Now you provide exact same boons with just one commander accesory and rest berserker/assasin.
    Your point is valid. Warrior is also taken for dps. But i guess elite pve guild like snowcrows will not take you in if you do 7.5k dps less then benchmark and it doesnt matter if you play warrior or chrono.

    I once talked with member of such guild and she explained to me that 3 diferent trinkets on HEAL druid is for them the diference between having shake before or after breakbar (at sloth). I am sure those 3 trinkets bring less dps diference then 7.5k

    I do think you need to be more clear on whether we are talking top level raiding or average/competent raiding. As you say in the example a tiny 3 trinket makes a difference to timing of mechanics which if you're trying for a record run is so important that many won't understand the subtly. Additionally a well thought out record run will often run things that many would not run and they themselves would not recommend because the shorter time frame between mechanics can often mean you need either another class to bring stab/stunbreak, additional condition clears or more CC.

    You mention a dps difference of ~7.5k but you also don't mention what that 7.5k loss brought like consistent spammable heals from the chrono, there is a reason why minstrels chrono was used and that's to carry sub par healers or people who tank mechanics. Yes that shouldn't happen (though it does if you watch teapots stream) in a static good group but it's still an extra safety net and if your DPS classes aren't slacking you should easily clear raids with no pressure.

    This may all be academic though as I can't see SoI staying as a boonshare, it's too problematic and has caused nerfs to most of the chaos line already. It also makes other boon support classes unable to compete, sure they might have higher DPS, they might give nearly all the same boons but it's nowhere near as easy as chrono which gives every boon in the game so long as it received it once.

    Yes. It is true that minstrel can be good to carry bad players. My post was a reaction to another post that said that dps on chrono doesnt matter.

  • Zlater.6789Zlater.6789 Member ✭✭✭

    @tinyreborn.1938 said:

    @Zlater.6789 said:
    Just stick concentration on your shield and air/slayer sigils on your sword/focus. You still gotta swap, except the difference between good and bad chrono's will not be as much their boon uptimes, but their personal contribution to dps.

    Why would you care how much dps have your chrono ? He could run full tank gear and do 0 damage but provide perma boons ,no one ever would tell him he have low dps and kick him. You have dedicated DPS classes /facepalm

    I care, because I dont want to spend more than a few hours getting my full clear if I can avoid it. If you want to play with inferior chronos, bs and secondary healers, go right ahead, but I'd rather not waste my time. Yes if a chronomancer ever trialled and they didnt even know how to optimise their gear properly, they would get kicked. We dont have time for time wasters and bad players in general, its not even their gear usually, its their attitude.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @tinyreborn.1938 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Well. You said that dps doesnt matter as chrono. It does. 10 k vs 2.5 k dps is 4 times more. Tell me what is better.
    Both commander and minstrel provide same concentration. Why is minstrel bezter if commander brings more damage and minstrel nothing that is worth it?
    And lastly, i have a brain. In fact my IQ makes me statisticaly a genius. Sorry if my post was too clever for you.

    Your post tell otherwise . Compare warrior banners that unaffected by gear and chrono that does . Especially hilarious that you think BS taken for banners only
    Dont bring your low IQ into discussion if you dont understand what I disliked in quoted post that wasn't addressed for you

    Its interesting that sigur clearly saw my point.
    As I said, dps in minstrel is ~2.5k. Dps in minmaxed build is ~10k. Show me a dps class that is considered good if you take away 7.5k dps.
    The main reason why bs is taken is banners. Without banners, warrior wouldnt be taken. It is true that for banners, you dont need stats. They would work with any gear (as my magi example). It is true that if chrono have minstrel gear now, you provide boons. Interesting is that you provide same boons if you have full commander. Even more interesting fact. Now you provide exact same boons with just one commander accesory and rest berserker/assasin.
    Your point is valid. Warrior is also taken for dps. But i guess elite pve guild like snowcrows will not take you in if you do 7.5k dps less then benchmark and it doesnt matter if you play warrior or chrono.

    I once talked with member of such guild and she explained to me that 3 diferent trinkets on HEAL druid is for them the diference between having shake before or after breakbar (at sloth). I am sure those 3 trinkets bring less dps diference then 7.5k

    I do think you need to be more clear on whether we are talking top level raiding or average/competent raiding. As you say in the example a tiny 3 trinket makes a difference to timing of mechanics which if you're trying for a record run is so important that many won't understand the subtly. Additionally a well thought out record run will often run things that many would not run and they themselves would not recommend because the shorter time frame between mechanics can often mean you need either another class to bring stab/stunbreak, additional condition clears or more CC.

    You mention a dps difference of ~7.5k but you also don't mention what that 7.5k loss brought like consistent spammable heals from the chrono, there is a reason why minstrels chrono was used and that's to carry sub par healers or people who tank mechanics. Yes that shouldn't happen (though it does if you watch teapots stream) in a static good group but it's still an extra safety net and if your DPS classes aren't slacking you should easily clear raids with no pressure.

    This may all be academic though as I can't see SoI staying as a boonshare, it's too problematic and has caused nerfs to most of the chaos line already. It also makes other boon support classes unable to compete, sure they might have higher DPS, they might give nearly all the same boons but it's nowhere near as easy as chrono which gives every boon in the game so long as it received it once.

    Yes. It is true that minstrel can be good to carry bad players. My post was a reaction to another post that said that dps on chrono doesnt matter.

    While I will agree that a 7.5k dps difference to the group does matter in some ways chrono dps is a low priority for anyone that isn't looking for a speed kill and the reliability extra healing brings to most groups is of far greater importance going off what I've seen from "average" players. Remember most bosses can be killed easily with a group DPS of 70-100k, that's basically 15k from 5 DPS classes and the BS. A half decent DPS player will usually be pushing 20k+ depending on class, build and mechanics leaving plenty of wiggle room, even my 1 handed warrior friend used to be pushing 20k reliably as BS a year ago.

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 10, 2018

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @tinyreborn.1938 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Well. You said that dps doesnt matter as chrono. It does. 10 k vs 2.5 k dps is 4 times more. Tell me what is better.
    Both commander and minstrel provide same concentration. Why is minstrel bezter if commander brings more damage and minstrel nothing that is worth it?
    And lastly, i have a brain. In fact my IQ makes me statisticaly a genius. Sorry if my post was too clever for you.

    Your post tell otherwise . Compare warrior banners that unaffected by gear and chrono that does . Especially hilarious that you think BS taken for banners only
    Dont bring your low IQ into discussion if you dont understand what I disliked in quoted post that wasn't addressed for you

    Its interesting that sigur clearly saw my point.
    As I said, dps in minstrel is ~2.5k. Dps in minmaxed build is ~10k. Show me a dps class that is considered good if you take away 7.5k dps.
    The main reason why bs is taken is banners. Without banners, warrior wouldnt be taken. It is true that for banners, you dont need stats. They would work with any gear (as my magi example). It is true that if chrono have minstrel gear now, you provide boons. Interesting is that you provide same boons if you have full commander. Even more interesting fact. Now you provide exact same boons with just one commander accesory and rest berserker/assasin.
    Your point is valid. Warrior is also taken for dps. But i guess elite pve guild like snowcrows will not take you in if you do 7.5k dps less then benchmark and it doesnt matter if you play warrior or chrono.

    I once talked with member of such guild and she explained to me that 3 diferent trinkets on HEAL druid is for them the diference between having shake before or after breakbar (at sloth). I am sure those 3 trinkets bring less dps diference then 7.5k

    I do think you need to be more clear on whether we are talking top level raiding or average/competent raiding. As you say in the example a tiny 3 trinket makes a difference to timing of mechanics which if you're trying for a record run is so important that many won't understand the subtly. Additionally a well thought out record run will often run things that many would not run and they themselves would not recommend because the shorter time frame between mechanics can often mean you need either another class to bring stab/stunbreak, additional condition clears or more CC.

    You mention a dps difference of ~7.5k but you also don't mention what that 7.5k loss brought like consistent spammable heals from the chrono, there is a reason why minstrels chrono was used and that's to carry sub par healers or people who tank mechanics. Yes that shouldn't happen (though it does if you watch teapots stream) in a static good group but it's still an extra safety net and if your DPS classes aren't slacking you should easily clear raids with no pressure.

    This may all be academic though as I can't see SoI staying as a boonshare, it's too problematic and has caused nerfs to most of the chaos line already. It also makes other boon support classes unable to compete, sure they might have higher DPS, they might give nearly all the same boons but it's nowhere near as easy as chrono which gives every boon in the game so long as it received it once.

    Yes. It is true that minstrel can be good to carry bad players. My post was a reaction to another post that said that dps on chrono doesnt matter.

    While I will agree that a 7.5k dps difference to the group does matter in some ways chrono dps is a low priority for anyone that isn't looking for a speed kill and the reliability extra healing brings to most groups is of far greater importance going off what I've seen from "average" players. Remember most bosses can be killed easily with a group DPS of 70-100k, that's basically 15k from 5 DPS classes and the BS. A half decent DPS player will usually be pushing 20k+ depending on class, build and mechanics leaving plenty of wiggle room, even my 1 handed warrior friend used to be pushing 20k reliably as BS a year ago.

    Half decent player will not need healing to begin with. If a player is reaching 20k+ during a fight he either has severe tunnel vision problem and chronos/healers clmpensate heavily for this or he know the fight and doesnt get damaged in the first place.
    I guess that this comes from my mentality but at least for secondary chrono there is 0 reason to play minstrel in fights that were not just released. Maybe in static group with dps druid. For tanking it is completly fine since dead chrono cannot provide boons but at fights with tank, there is little damage going to the rest 9 players and without tank all damage is equaly spread so healer(s) can keep everyone alive.

  • Hot Boy.7138Hot Boy.7138 Member ✭✭✭

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    I hope there will be more synergy, or at least more choice, less disparity, with each class design and chosen roles.

    There should be a significant amount of additional choices, particularly for deeply niche builds and top end variations.

    This sounds good. I hope there are some sigils and runes to finally support the condition slow. And some more interesting choices for power runes. Seems like condition runes gets far more interesting effects on runes.

  • kasoki.5180kasoki.5180 Member ✭✭✭

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @kasoki.5180 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @kasoki.5180 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    There is a change. Now if you dpnt have time for swap and you swap you suffer. But if you have and dont you suffer too. After this chamge there is almost 0 punischment for just camping shield and swaping/not swaping for that specific encounter.

    Clone generation? Dps? Blocks? I mean, you currently need to have 3 clones for your CS to maximise quickness uptime. If your Echo of Memory/Deja Vu fails you are in a bit of a pickle

    I play T4 with no sigil of concentration. Have 100% boon uptime. And yes I have to swap weapons.

    No. You need one clone man. Why do you need 3 clones??? You can cast tides of time, signet of inspiration, well of action, mimic (and all shatters if you time correctly) in one clone cs. Those are all your quickness and alacrity spells so you dont get better uptime if you have longer cs. In fact you will have less uptime because you lose those few seconds you are in cs when you dont need to be.

    And yes, you can swap to increese dps or to get specific spell but it will not affect your quickness and alacrity generation. Right now you need to chose if you swap for boons or swap for damage/cc/pulls...(if you dont plan your swaps to be there when swaping for boon duration).

    Truth is, after this change you can be lazy and camp one set without losing any boons.

    Well of Action - Mimic - Signet of Inspiration - Time Warp - Signet of Inspiration - Tides of Time

    If you can cast all of those in one clone CS you are pro and a magician. I know I need more than one clone to do that. Having a "free" second weapon can really help with that.

    Also, you can press your F5 whenever you want, you dont need to be in CS any longer than you need

    1) you dont need to cast second signet of inspiration in cs. You just end with with mimic and cast soi as a first ultility after cs ends.
    2) If you have timewarp then you run dissenchanter in raids most of the times.

    So cs looks like this: tides of time, signet of inspiration, well of action/timewarp, mimic. Cs ends
    Signet, w8 till you have less then 3 sec on swap, well (if you have it), tides, swap, phantasm ether phantasm mimic, swap signet signet.

    And also dont forget that most of power dps builds open with burst combo and you want to make sure they have all buffs as fast as possible. That is why 1 clone cs is important. (2 clone cs in fractals since you use staff there but you also need to start with one more spell usualy (moa))

    Edit: and even with all spells you listed you only need 2 clones and still have plenty of time for another spell(s)

    I should've specified I was referring to T4 pugs. Thats why I'm using all those skills. There is absolutely always someone out of range, someone not standing in wells etc etc. And the thing is since I have "free" weapon swap I usually get my clones up before most players even reach the boss.

    That was the point I was trying to make. Having weapons not dependant for SoC allows you better clone generation for more exessive boon share within a time that is marginally different. Any bursts that dps players do will happen with their buffs on because it takes little to generate clones for a more exessive rotation

  • @kasoki.5180 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @kasoki.5180 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @kasoki.5180 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    There is a change. Now if you dpnt have time for swap and you swap you suffer. But if you have and dont you suffer too. After this chamge there is almost 0 punischment for just camping shield and swaping/not swaping for that specific encounter.

    Clone generation? Dps? Blocks? I mean, you currently need to have 3 clones for your CS to maximise quickness uptime. If your Echo of Memory/Deja Vu fails you are in a bit of a pickle

    I play T4 with no sigil of concentration. Have 100% boon uptime. And yes I have to swap weapons.

    No. You need one clone man. Why do you need 3 clones??? You can cast tides of time, signet of inspiration, well of action, mimic (and all shatters if you time correctly) in one clone cs. Those are all your quickness and alacrity spells so you dont get better uptime if you have longer cs. In fact you will have less uptime because you lose those few seconds you are in cs when you dont need to be.

    And yes, you can swap to increese dps or to get specific spell but it will not affect your quickness and alacrity generation. Right now you need to chose if you swap for boons or swap for damage/cc/pulls...(if you dont plan your swaps to be there when swaping for boon duration).

    Truth is, after this change you can be lazy and camp one set without losing any boons.

    Well of Action - Mimic - Signet of Inspiration - Time Warp - Signet of Inspiration - Tides of Time

    If you can cast all of those in one clone CS you are pro and a magician. I know I need more than one clone to do that. Having a "free" second weapon can really help with that.

    Also, you can press your F5 whenever you want, you dont need to be in CS any longer than you need

    1) you dont need to cast second signet of inspiration in cs. You just end with with mimic and cast soi as a first ultility after cs ends.
    2) If you have timewarp then you run dissenchanter in raids most of the times.

    So cs looks like this: tides of time, signet of inspiration, well of action/timewarp, mimic. Cs ends
    Signet, w8 till you have less then 3 sec on swap, well (if you have it), tides, swap, phantasm ether phantasm mimic, swap signet signet.

    And also dont forget that most of power dps builds open with burst combo and you want to make sure they have all buffs as fast as possible. That is why 1 clone cs is important. (2 clone cs in fractals since you use staff there but you also need to start with one more spell usualy (moa))

    Edit: and even with all spells you listed you only need 2 clones and still have plenty of time for another spell(s)

    I should've specified I was referring to T4 pugs. Thats why I'm using all those skills. There is absolutely always someone out of range, someone not standing in wells etc etc. And the thing is since I have "free" weapon swap I usually get my clones up before most players even reach the boss.

    That was the point I was trying to make. Having weapons not dependant for SoC allows you better clone generation for more exessive boon share within a time that is marginally different. Any bursts that dps players do will happen with their buffs on because it takes little to generate clones for a more exessive rotation

    Ok. I think this works for you only because yout teamates are bad but no problem. Thats why I never do only t4 but always at least 99cm. So my group is decent. If i say to my group to stack on singularity for boons and they dont then this is not a group for me. Generating more clones is better then since they already have boons.

  • Jaydos.4751Jaydos.4751 Member ✭✭
    edited November 12, 2018

    I do not see the point in this change. Everyone is complaining about how this sigil locked them into a set rotation, how its bad design. Here are my thoughts. swapping weapons isn't a very hard mechanic. however, it allowed you to optimise, be more than just a boon bot and push into other avenues of play. following the idea of optimisation, you were never forced to run this sigil. you can reach 100% boon duration without it. In no way was SoC a hard lockout to anyone, you could still play the class and fill the role required. this change is very similar to the distort change. both weren't required (granted distort was very OP). The distort was very difficult to pull off. due to this, no one would complain if you couldn't do it. Just as nothing stopped you from playing chrono if you didn't use the sigil, as long as you could keep the boons up. I understand you want to cater to casual players, but you don't need to bring the ceiling down to meet them. I can understand the want for everyone to be able to play any class, which is good at a minimum, but you also need room for players to grow, otherwise, the game will get boring and dull.

    This is where I feel minimum should lie. Chrono gear is very hard to obtain. Time-consuming, expensive, or both. so I feel ANet should make the gear easier to obtain. they already halved the amount of Crystalline ore you need for leadership runes which is a massive improvement. Reduce the price of Minstrel and Commanders or even add a new stat which is easier to obtain. This is to cater for brand new players, due to most veterans are drowning in ascended by this point.

    I personally want Anet to adopt Bushnell's Law. "Easy to learn, yet difficult to master"

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You always can change to ele for complexity, try D/D celestial ele in PvP. Correct me if I'm wrong but the most complex rotation is weaver in PvE

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • @phs.6089 said:
    You always can change to ele for complexity, try D/D celestial ele in PvP. Correct me if I'm wrong but the most complex rotation is weaver in PvE

    Its Either Ele or Condi Engi both very challenging. Chrono rotation was less skill spam and more timing. which seems fitting for a manipulator of time.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2018

    @Jaydos.4751 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    You always can change to ele for complexity, try D/D celestial ele in PvP. Correct me if I'm wrong but the most complex rotation is weaver in PvE

    Its Either Ele or Condi Engi both very challenging. Chrono rotation was less skill spam and more timing. which seems fitting for a manipulator of time.

    So weapon swap has very little to do, with timing

    haven't seen condi engie for long now :cry:

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • @phs.6089 said:

    @Jaydos.4751 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    You always can change to ele for complexity, try D/D celestial ele in PvP. Correct me if I'm wrong but the most complex rotation is weaver in PvE

    Its Either Ele or Condi Engi both very challenging. Chrono rotation was less skill spam and more timing. which seems fitting for a manipulator of time.

    So weapon swap has very little to do, with timing

    haven't seen condi engie for long now :cry:

    Weapon Swap was all timing, making sure you can fit your skills in the 7 second window. Condi Engi is in the current Meta it's incredibly strong, quite easy to top dps with.

  • Morte de Angelis.7986Morte de Angelis.7986 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2018

    @Jaydos.4751 said:
    I do not see the point in this change. Everyone is complaining about how this sigil locked them into a set rotation, how its bad design. Here are my thoughts. swapping weapons isn't a very hard mechanic. however, it allowed you to optimise, be more than just a boon bot and push into other avenues of play. following the idea of optimisation, you were never forced to run this sigil. you can reach 100% boon duration without it. In no way was SoC a hard lockout to anyone, you could still play the class and fill the role required. this change is very similar to the distort change. both weren't required (granted distort was very OP). The distort was very difficult to pull off. due to this, no one would complain if you couldn't do it. Just as nothing stopped you from playing chrono if you didn't use the sigil, as long as you could keep the boons up. I understand you want to cater to casual players, but you don't need to bring the ceiling down to meet them. I can understand the want for everyone to be able to play any class, which is good at a minimum, but you also need room for players to grow, otherwise, the game will get boring and dull.

    This is where I feel minimum should lie. Chrono gear is very hard to obtain. Time-consuming, expensive, or both. so I feel ANet should make the gear easier to obtain. they already halved the amount of Crystalline ore you need for leadership runes which is a massive improvement. Reduce the price of Minstrel and Commanders or even add a new stat which is easier to obtain. This is to cater for brand new players, due to most veterans are drowning in ascended by this point.

    I personally want Anet to adopt Bushnell's Law. "Easy to learn, yet difficult to master"

    Or maybe they are trying to bring Chrono into balance with other supports as Chrono is 100x better then any other option. The only set-up that gets close is 2xFB / Rev and almost no one runs it outside of some group trying something different.
    In my static I've been running a boon thief with Detonate Plasma (on bosses that give it). Allows one Chrono to go Mirage and just have Signet + the Other Chrono and replace one of the Druids (if you run 2 healers) for a Rev and you've got all you boons covered with more then enough uptime with more group DPS. But no one runs it. Cause why would they when Chrono + Druid works for everything

  • Actualy this change makes chrono even better since all quickness builds loses dps but it pains fb much more then chrono since dps was its main advantage.

  • @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Actualy this change makes chrono even better since all quickness builds loses dps but it pains fb much more then chrono since dps was its main advantage.

    Ah the Anet classic,
    Try and nerf Chrono outside of just nerfing chrono that turns out is actually a buff.

  • Pyroatheist.9031Pyroatheist.9031 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jaydos.4751 said:
    Weapon Swap was all timing, making sure you can fit your skills in the 7 second window.

    You say that like swapping weapons then hitting SoI, a shatter or two, and shield 5 was some groundbreaking esports mlg combo.

    Ohey, I've got a signature

  • @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

    @Jaydos.4751 said:
    Weapon Swap was all timing, making sure you can fit your skills in the 7 second window.

    You say that like swapping weapons then hitting SoI, a shatter or two, and shield 5 was some groundbreaking esports mlg combo.

    Or I’m explaining it as it is. Timing based rather then using skills on cooldown. While making sure to sync everything up with the next c split.

    No it’s not that “MLG esports” as you say. but is anything “MLG esports” in gw2? Logging on will soon be the most challenging part of the game.

  • Pyroatheist.9031Pyroatheist.9031 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jaydos.4751 said:

    @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

    @Jaydos.4751 said:
    Weapon Swap was all timing, making sure you can fit your skills in the 7 second window.

    You say that like swapping weapons then hitting SoI, a shatter or two, and shield 5 was some groundbreaking esports mlg combo.

    Or I’m explaining it as it is. Timing based rather then using skills on cooldown. While making sure to sync everything up with the next c split.

    No it’s not that “MLG esports” as you say. but is anything “MLG esports” in gw2? Logging on will soon be the most challenging part of the game.

    You already just use skills off cooldown. It's not like you delay them to sync up with weapon swap. There's only 3s of downtime if you swap every 10 seconds, so it's really not that hard to do.

    I don't understand all this masturbatory back patting going on here between all you guys claiming that support Chrono is this hyper-skilled build that requires precise timing and exacting play. It doesn't. It's not that hard. The rotation is sinple and forgiving. The buff uptime is easy to sustain without having obvious vulnerable points that would disrupt it for a long period of time. Additionally, this build has been various levels of this easy to play for a very long time.

    Literally the only time that Chrono was exceedingly difficult to play was when squad-swapping worked in combat, and the Chrono would be swapping themselves between sub-squads every other SoI to cover full 10-target buffs as 1 person. That actually required precise timing and exacting execution or it would all fall apart.

    Ohey, I've got a signature

  • @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

    @Jaydos.4751 said:

    @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

    @Jaydos.4751 said:
    Weapon Swap was all timing, making sure you can fit your skills in the 7 second window.

    You say that like swapping weapons then hitting SoI, a shatter or two, and shield 5 was some groundbreaking esports mlg combo.

    Or I’m explaining it as it is. Timing based rather then using skills on cooldown. While making sure to sync everything up with the next c split.

    No it’s not that “MLG esports” as you say. but is anything “MLG esports” in gw2? Logging on will soon be the most challenging part of the game.

    You already just use skills off cooldown. It's not like you delay them to sync up with weapon swap. There's only 3s of downtime if you swap every 10 seconds, so it's really not that hard to do.

    I don't understand all this masturbatory back patting going on here between all you guys claiming that support Chrono is this hyper-skilled build that requires precise timing and exacting play. It doesn't. It's not that hard. The rotation is sinple and forgiving. The buff uptime is easy to sustain without having obvious vulnerable points that would disrupt it for a long period of time. Additionally, this build has been various levels of this easy to play for a very long time.

    Literally the only time that Chrono was exceedingly difficult to play was when squad-swapping worked in combat, and the Chrono would be swapping themselves between sub-squads every other SoI to cover full 10-target buffs as 1 person. That actually required precise timing and exacting execution or it would all fall apart.

    Exactly this. Chrono is not hard so kowering dificulty makes no sence.

  • Pyroatheist.9031Pyroatheist.9031 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

    @Jaydos.4751 said:

    @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

    @Jaydos.4751 said:
    Weapon Swap was all timing, making sure you can fit your skills in the 7 second window.

    You say that like swapping weapons then hitting SoI, a shatter or two, and shield 5 was some groundbreaking esports mlg combo.

    Or I’m explaining it as it is. Timing based rather then using skills on cooldown. While making sure to sync everything up with the next c split.

    No it’s not that “MLG esports” as you say. but is anything “MLG esports” in gw2? Logging on will soon be the most challenging part of the game.

    You already just use skills off cooldown. It's not like you delay them to sync up with weapon swap. There's only 3s of downtime if you swap every 10 seconds, so it's really not that hard to do.

    I don't understand all this masturbatory back patting going on here between all you guys claiming that support Chrono is this hyper-skilled build that requires precise timing and exacting play. It doesn't. It's not that hard. The rotation is sinple and forgiving. The buff uptime is easy to sustain without having obvious vulnerable points that would disrupt it for a long period of time. Additionally, this build has been various levels of this easy to play for a very long time.

    Literally the only time that Chrono was exceedingly difficult to play was when squad-swapping worked in combat, and the Chrono would be swapping themselves between sub-squads every other SoI to cover full 10-target buffs as 1 person. That actually required precise timing and exacting execution or it would all fall apart.

    Exactly this. Chrono is not hard so kowering dificulty makes no sence.

    That's a little disingenuous too though. Chrono is not hard, therefore removing one semi-inconsequential mechanic is not a big deal, particularly if it enables the balance team to better control stat allocation.

    The obvious problem here is that sigil of concentration provides an absolutely titanic amount of boon duration for extremely little investment. It's way out of line with anything else in the game that provides boon duration. The obvious intent of the sigil was to lock that boon duration behind an appropriately challenging mechanic, but that clearly didn't work out as intended. Therefor, they're toning it down to a more reasonable power level.

    Ohey, I've got a signature

  • sigur.9453sigur.9453 Member ✭✭✭

    @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

    @Jaydos.4751 said:

    @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

    @Jaydos.4751 said:
    Weapon Swap was all timing, making sure you can fit your skills in the 7 second window.

    You say that like swapping weapons then hitting SoI, a shatter or two, and shield 5 was some groundbreaking esports mlg combo.

    Or I’m explaining it as it is. Timing based rather then using skills on cooldown. While making sure to sync everything up with the next c split.

    No it’s not that “MLG esports” as you say. but is anything “MLG esports” in gw2? Logging on will soon be the most challenging part of the game.

    You already just use skills off cooldown. It's not like you delay them to sync up with weapon swap. There's only 3s of downtime if you swap every 10 seconds, so it's really not that hard to do.

    I don't understand all this masturbatory back patting going on here between all you guys claiming that support Chrono is this hyper-skilled build that requires precise timing and exacting play. It doesn't. It's not that hard. The rotation is sinple and forgiving. The buff uptime is easy to sustain without having obvious vulnerable points that would disrupt it for a long period of time. Additionally, this build has been various levels of this easy to play for a very long time.

    Literally the only time that Chrono was exceedingly difficult to play was when squad-swapping worked in combat, and the Chrono would be swapping themselves between sub-squads every other SoI to cover full 10-target buffs as 1 person. That actually required precise timing and exacting execution or it would all fall apart.

    Exactly this. Chrono is not hard so kowering dificulty makes no sence.

    That's a little disingenuous too though. Chrono is not hard, therefore removing one semi-inconsequential mechanic is not a big deal, particularly if it enables the balance team to better control stat allocation.

    The obvious problem here is that sigil of concentration provides an absolutely titanic amount of boon duration for extremely little investment. It's way out of line with anything else in the game that provides boon duration. The obvious intent of the sigil was to lock that boon duration behind an appropriately challenging mechanic, but that clearly didn't work out as intended. Therefor, they're toning it down to a more reasonable power level.

    while i agree of the sigil beeing to powerfull, making an easy rotation even easier might be no big deal for you, but i think thats exactly the point was argued about. fact is, it WILL be easier, doesn´t matter if it get form super hard to super easy or from easy to braindead. right now you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. Making it 10% and keep the weapon swap would have been fine i guess. but anet preoceeds to rework everything instead of adjusting little bites (like always). but we will see how it will turn out, could be everything from super awesome to super broken.

  • @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

    @Jaydos.4751 said:

    @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

    @Jaydos.4751 said:
    Weapon Swap was all timing, making sure you can fit your skills in the 7 second window.

    You say that like swapping weapons then hitting SoI, a shatter or two, and shield 5 was some groundbreaking esports mlg combo.

    Or I’m explaining it as it is. Timing based rather then using skills on cooldown. While making sure to sync everything up with the next c split.

    No it’s not that “MLG esports” as you say. but is anything “MLG esports” in gw2? Logging on will soon be the most challenging part of the game.

    You already just use skills off cooldown. It's not like you delay them to sync up with weapon swap. There's only 3s of downtime if you swap every 10 seconds, so it's really not that hard to do.

    I don't understand all this masturbatory back patting going on here between all you guys claiming that support Chrono is this hyper-skilled build that requires precise timing and exacting play. It doesn't. It's not that hard. The rotation is sinple and forgiving. The buff uptime is easy to sustain without having obvious vulnerable points that would disrupt it for a long period of time. Additionally, this build has been various levels of this easy to play for a very long time.

    Literally the only time that Chrono was exceedingly difficult to play was when squad-swapping worked in combat, and the Chrono would be swapping themselves between sub-squads every other SoI to cover full 10-target buffs as 1 person. That actually required precise timing and exacting execution or it would all fall apart.

    Exactly this. Chrono is not hard so kowering dificulty makes no sence.

    That's a little disingenuous too though. Chrono is not hard, therefore removing one semi-inconsequential mechanic is not a big deal, particularly if it enables the balance team to better control stat allocation.

    The obvious problem here is that sigil of concentration provides an absolutely titanic amount of boon duration for extremely little investment. It's way out of line with anything else in the game that provides boon duration. The obvious intent of the sigil was to lock that boon duration behind an appropriately challenging mechanic, but that clearly didn't work out as intended. Therefor, they're toning it down to a more reasonable power level.

    I agree that sigil of concentration was indeed wery efficient and I have no problem with the nerf. I just think that 15% boon duration for 4 seconds after swap would be much better then flat 10%

  • @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

    @Jaydos.4751 said:

    @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

    @Jaydos.4751 said:
    Weapon Swap was all timing, making sure you can fit your skills in the 7 second window.

    You say that like swapping weapons then hitting SoI, a shatter or two, and shield 5 was some groundbreaking esports mlg combo.

    Or I’m explaining it as it is. Timing based rather then using skills on cooldown. While making sure to sync everything up with the next c split.

    No it’s not that “MLG esports” as you say. but is anything “MLG esports” in gw2? Logging on will soon be the most challenging part of the game.

    You already just use skills off cooldown. It's not like you delay them to sync up with weapon swap. There's only 3s of downtime if you swap every 10 seconds, so it's really not that hard to do.

    I don't understand all this masturbatory back patting going on here between all you guys claiming that support Chrono is this hyper-skilled build that requires precise timing and exacting play. It doesn't. It's not that hard. The rotation is sinple and forgiving. The buff uptime is easy to sustain without having obvious vulnerable points that would disrupt it for a long period of time. Additionally, this build has been various levels of this easy to play for a very long time.

    Literally the only time that Chrono was exceedingly difficult to play was when squad-swapping worked in combat, and the Chrono would be swapping themselves between sub-squads every other SoI to cover full 10-target buffs as 1 person. That actually required precise timing and exacting execution or it would all fall apart.

    Exactly this. Chrono is not hard so kowering dificulty makes no sence.

    That's a little disingenuous too though. Chrono is not hard, therefore removing one semi-inconsequential mechanic is not a big deal, particularly if it enables the balance team to better control stat allocation.

    The obvious problem here is that sigil of concentration provides an absolutely titanic amount of boon duration for extremely little investment. It's way out of line with anything else in the game that provides boon duration. The obvious intent of the sigil was to lock that boon duration behind an appropriately challenging mechanic, but that clearly didn't work out as intended. Therefor, they're toning it down to a more reasonable power level.

    I agree that sigil of concentration was indeed wery efficient and I have no problem with the nerf. I just think that 15% boon duration for 4 seconds after swap would be much better then flat 10%

    100% this. As simple as weapon swapping is. Its far more interesting than just gaining a passive 10% for buying a sigil, putting said sigil on a weapon then never thinking about it again.

  • Lolivia.3219Lolivia.3219 Member ✭✭
    edited November 13, 2018

    do you people even play chrono? i mean seriously? the 7 second window was -juuust- enough to squeeze in well of action before weapon swapping, mimic soi , tides of time, soi ->split end, tides of time, and then weapon swap. which is also -juuuust- enough for a 2 clone split, what point or challenge is there when the window time is shorter, and by default cause of that you can only cast as much as any simpleton can easily do. if there is no window....what fun is there left then.

    the mimic change, horrid, tbh, and some people call it more freedom here, lol. no...seriously, thats not lol, thats just worth crying over.
    now this...
    Anet Logic: "If it works and people are content with it, we'll change it, if it doesn't work, we'll cheer you up with more sittable chairs"

  • @Lolivia.3219 said:
    do you people even play chrono? i mean seriously? the 7 second window was -juuust- enough to squeeze in well of action before weapon swapping, mimic soi , tides of time, soi ->split end, tides of time, and then weapon swap. which is also -juuuust- enough for a 2 clone split, what point or challenge is there when the window time is shorter, and by default cause of that you can only cast as much as any simpleton can. easily do. if there is no window....what fun is there left then.

    the mimic change, horrid, tbh, and some people call it more freedom here, lol. no...seriously, thats not lol, thats just worth crying over.
    now this...
    Anet Logic: "If it works and people are content with it, we'll change it, if it doesn't work, we'll cheer you up with more sittable chairs"

    Looks like you dont play chrono if you need 2 clones cs to cast tides of time, soi, woa, mimic.

  • Lolivia.3219Lolivia.3219 Member ✭✭
    edited November 13, 2018

    i said 2x soi, and it was about the buff window kitten, obviously moa is in the split too, but thats not very useful mentioning cause that has nothing to do with weapon sigil. learn to read and stay on topic, thnxbye

    PS: why use soi x 2 in the split? so i can start off with woa right after the split and THEN use mimic soi again, so it doesnt overcap and has better rotation cause of the cd's being more inline at the end then)

  • @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Lolivia.3219 said:
    do you people even play chrono? i mean seriously? the 7 second window was -juuust- enough to squeeze in well of action before weapon swapping, mimic soi , tides of time, soi ->split end, tides of time, and then weapon swap. which is also -juuuust- enough for a 2 clone split, what point or challenge is there when the window time is shorter, and by default cause of that you can only cast as much as any simpleton can. easily do. if there is no window....what fun is there left then.

    the mimic change, horrid, tbh, and some people call it more freedom here, lol. no...seriously, thats not lol, thats just worth crying over.
    now this...
    Anet Logic: "If it works and people are content with it, we'll change it, if it doesn't work, we'll cheer you up with more sittable chairs"

    Looks like you dont play chrono if you need 2 clones cs to cast tides of time, soi, woa, mimic.

    So I'm gona be 100% serious and say that I find it difficult to get all the skills off needed in CS with two clones. Tho I don't play chrono much so it might be due to that.
    But please tell me if I'm doing anything wrong

    Pre-cast TW -> CS (Cast ends in CS) -> (if at the start quick F1/F2 for Q/A) -> (Swap) -> SoI -> WoA -> WoR -> Tides of time
    More often then not tides is cast just as CS ends with two clones. I have more then enough with 3. From looking at logs Q/A uptime is good (95%+ on most bosses for peeps in my subgroup)

    Am I doing it wrong or do I just simply need to cast the skills faster?

  • Pyroatheist.9031Pyroatheist.9031 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Morte de Angelis.7986 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Lolivia.3219 said:
    do you people even play chrono? i mean seriously? the 7 second window was -juuust- enough to squeeze in well of action before weapon swapping, mimic soi , tides of time, soi ->split end, tides of time, and then weapon swap. which is also -juuuust- enough for a 2 clone split, what point or challenge is there when the window time is shorter, and by default cause of that you can only cast as much as any simpleton can. easily do. if there is no window....what fun is there left then.

    the mimic change, horrid, tbh, and some people call it more freedom here, lol. no...seriously, thats not lol, thats just worth crying over.
    now this...
    Anet Logic: "If it works and people are content with it, we'll change it, if it doesn't work, we'll cheer you up with more sittable chairs"

    Looks like you dont play chrono if you need 2 clones cs to cast tides of time, soi, woa, mimic.

    So I'm gona be 100% serious and say that I find it difficult to get all the skills off needed in CS with two clones. Tho I don't play chrono much so it might be due to that.
    But please tell me if I'm doing anything wrong

    Pre-cast TW -> CS (Cast ends in CS) -> (if at the start quick F1/F2 for Q/A) -> (Swap) -> SoI -> WoA -> WoR -> Tides of time
    More often then not tides is cast just as CS ends with two clones. I have more then enough with 3. From looking at logs Q/A uptime is good (95%+ on most bosses for peeps in my subgroup)

    Am I doing it wrong or do I just simply need to cast the skills faster?

    You're doing it wrong.

    Cs -> ToT, WoA, SoI, mimic, (shatters while you hit those 4) -> Cs end -> ToT, SoI, mimic, SoI, SoI, WoA.

    WoR is no longer useful. Due to stacking mechanics, Time Warp is barely useful.

    Ohey, I've got a signature

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 13, 2018

    @Lolivia.3219 said:
    i said 2x soi, and it was about the buff window kitten, obviously moa is in the split too, but thats not very useful mentioning cause that has nothing to do with weapon sigil. learn to read and stay on topic, thnxbye

    PS: why use soi x 2 in the split? so i can start off with woa right after the split and THEN use mimic soi again, so it doesnt overcap and has better rotation cause of the cd's being more inline at the end then)

    If you are talking about raid rotation then you need to w8 for 3rd and 4th soi since else it overcaps. In fractals it would overcap since you already have boons from precasting.
    There is 0 diference (exept number of clones required) between your
    " well of action before weapon swapping, mimic soi , tides of time, soi ->split end,"
    And well of action, swap ,soi, mimic, tides of time, cs ends soi.
    That proves that my way is more efficient.

  • @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

    @Morte de Angelis.7986 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Lolivia.3219 said:
    do you people even play chrono? i mean seriously? the 7 second window was -juuust- enough to squeeze in well of action before weapon swapping, mimic soi , tides of time, soi ->split end, tides of time, and then weapon swap. which is also -juuuust- enough for a 2 clone split, what point or challenge is there when the window time is shorter, and by default cause of that you can only cast as much as any simpleton can. easily do. if there is no window....what fun is there left then.

    the mimic change, horrid, tbh, and some people call it more freedom here, lol. no...seriously, thats not lol, thats just worth crying over.
    now this...
    Anet Logic: "If it works and people are content with it, we'll change it, if it doesn't work, we'll cheer you up with more sittable chairs"

    Looks like you dont play chrono if you need 2 clones cs to cast tides of time, soi, woa, mimic.

    So I'm gona be 100% serious and say that I find it difficult to get all the skills off needed in CS with two clones. Tho I don't play chrono much so it might be due to that.
    But please tell me if I'm doing anything wrong

    Pre-cast TW -> CS (Cast ends in CS) -> (if at the start quick F1/F2 for Q/A) -> (Swap) -> SoI -> WoA -> WoR -> Tides of time
    More often then not tides is cast just as CS ends with two clones. I have more then enough with 3. From looking at logs Q/A uptime is good (95%+ on most bosses for peeps in my subgroup)

    Am I doing it wrong or do I just simply need to cast the skills faster?

    You're doing it wrong.

    Cs -> ToT, WoA, SoI, mimic, (shatters while you hit those 4) -> Cs end -> ToT, SoI, mimic, SoI, SoI, WoA.

    WoR is no longer useful. Due to stacking mechanics, Time Warp is barely useful.

    Stacking mechanics?

  • Pyroatheist.9031Pyroatheist.9031 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Morte de Angelis.7986 said:

    @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

    @Morte de Angelis.7986 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Lolivia.3219 said:
    do you people even play chrono? i mean seriously? the 7 second window was -juuust- enough to squeeze in well of action before weapon swapping, mimic soi , tides of time, soi ->split end, tides of time, and then weapon swap. which is also -juuuust- enough for a 2 clone split, what point or challenge is there when the window time is shorter, and by default cause of that you can only cast as much as any simpleton can. easily do. if there is no window....what fun is there left then.

    the mimic change, horrid, tbh, and some people call it more freedom here, lol. no...seriously, thats not lol, thats just worth crying over.
    now this...
    Anet Logic: "If it works and people are content with it, we'll change it, if it doesn't work, we'll cheer you up with more sittable chairs"

    Looks like you dont play chrono if you need 2 clones cs to cast tides of time, soi, woa, mimic.

    So I'm gona be 100% serious and say that I find it difficult to get all the skills off needed in CS with two clones. Tho I don't play chrono much so it might be due to that.
    But please tell me if I'm doing anything wrong

    Pre-cast TW -> CS (Cast ends in CS) -> (if at the start quick F1/F2 for Q/A) -> (Swap) -> SoI -> WoA -> WoR -> Tides of time
    More often then not tides is cast just as CS ends with two clones. I have more then enough with 3. From looking at logs Q/A uptime is good (95%+ on most bosses for peeps in my subgroup)

    Am I doing it wrong or do I just simply need to cast the skills faster?

    You're doing it wrong.

    Cs -> ToT, WoA, SoI, mimic, (shatters while you hit those 4) -> Cs end -> ToT, SoI, mimic, SoI, SoI, WoA.

    WoR is no longer useful. Due to stacking mechanics, Time Warp is barely useful.

    Stacking mechanics?

    Quickness stacks 5 times. In the CS combo, you use well of action twice and SoI 4 times. All 6 of those stacks are longer than the time warp stacks, so almost nothing from time warp actually sticks around to be useful.

    Ohey, I've got a signature

  • Einsof.1457Einsof.1457 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 13, 2018

    @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

    @Morte de Angelis.7986 said:

    @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

    @Morte de Angelis.7986 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Lolivia.3219 said:
    do you people even play chrono? i mean seriously? the 7 second window was -juuust- enough to squeeze in well of action before weapon swapping, mimic soi , tides of time, soi ->split end, tides of time, and then weapon swap. which is also -juuuust- enough for a 2 clone split, what point or challenge is there when the window time is shorter, and by default cause of that you can only cast as much as any simpleton can. easily do. if there is no window....what fun is there left then.

    the mimic change, horrid, tbh, and some people call it more freedom here, lol. no...seriously, thats not lol, thats just worth crying over.
    now this...
    Anet Logic: "If it works and people are content with it, we'll change it, if it doesn't work, we'll cheer you up with more sittable chairs"

    Looks like you dont play chrono if you need 2 clones cs to cast tides of time, soi, woa, mimic.

    So I'm gona be 100% serious and say that I find it difficult to get all the skills off needed in CS with two clones. Tho I don't play chrono much so it might be due to that.
    But please tell me if I'm doing anything wrong

    Pre-cast TW -> CS (Cast ends in CS) -> (if at the start quick F1/F2 for Q/A) -> (Swap) -> SoI -> WoA -> WoR -> Tides of time
    More often then not tides is cast just as CS ends with two clones. I have more then enough with 3. From looking at logs Q/A uptime is good (95%+ on most bosses for peeps in my subgroup)

    Am I doing it wrong or do I just simply need to cast the skills faster?

    You're doing it wrong.

    Cs -> ToT, WoA, SoI, mimic, (shatters while you hit those 4) -> Cs end -> ToT, SoI, mimic, SoI, SoI, WoA.

    WoR is no longer useful. Due to stacking mechanics, Time Warp is barely useful.

    Stacking mechanics?

    Quickness stacks 5 times. In the CS combo, you use well of action twice and SoI 4 times. All 6 of those stacks are longer than the time warp stacks, so almost nothing from time warp actually sticks around to be useful.

    doesnt matter. anet just released the patch notes. the nerfs are worse than i feared, and our rotation is now braindead like 90% of the other professions. rip

  • @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

    @Morte de Angelis.7986 said:

    @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

    @Morte de Angelis.7986 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Lolivia.3219 said:
    do you people even play chrono? i mean seriously? the 7 second window was -juuust- enough to squeeze in well of action before weapon swapping, mimic soi , tides of time, soi ->split end, tides of time, and then weapon swap. which is also -juuuust- enough for a 2 clone split, what point or challenge is there when the window time is shorter, and by default cause of that you can only cast as much as any simpleton can. easily do. if there is no window....what fun is there left then.

    the mimic change, horrid, tbh, and some people call it more freedom here, lol. no...seriously, thats not lol, thats just worth crying over.
    now this...
    Anet Logic: "If it works and people are content with it, we'll change it, if it doesn't work, we'll cheer you up with more sittable chairs"

    Looks like you dont play chrono if you need 2 clones cs to cast tides of time, soi, woa, mimic.

    So I'm gona be 100% serious and say that I find it difficult to get all the skills off needed in CS with two clones. Tho I don't play chrono much so it might be due to that.
    But please tell me if I'm doing anything wrong

    Pre-cast TW -> CS (Cast ends in CS) -> (if at the start quick F1/F2 for Q/A) -> (Swap) -> SoI -> WoA -> WoR -> Tides of time
    More often then not tides is cast just as CS ends with two clones. I have more then enough with 3. From looking at logs Q/A uptime is good (95%+ on most bosses for peeps in my subgroup)

    Am I doing it wrong or do I just simply need to cast the skills faster?

    You're doing it wrong.

    Cs -> ToT, WoA, SoI, mimic, (shatters while you hit those 4) -> Cs end -> ToT, SoI, mimic, SoI, SoI, WoA.

    WoR is no longer useful. Due to stacking mechanics, Time Warp is barely useful.

    Stacking mechanics?

    Quickness stacks 5 times. In the CS combo, you use well of action twice and SoI 4 times. All 6 of those stacks are longer than the time warp stacks, so almost nothing from time warp actually sticks around to be useful.

    Ah, ty

  • Cry baby mesmer tears.
    Do they taste good?
    "dON´t cHAnGe mUh ClaSs"
    Holy christ, stop it already lmao.

  • Carighan.6758Carighan.6758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
    There should be a significant amount of additional choices, particularly for deeply niche builds and top end variations.

    So the patch has come, and there's no real additional choices. This is a class-design issue btw, not one of gear. Gear was just a balance problem, which isn't the same.

  • GlobalReverse.8543GlobalReverse.8543 Member
    edited November 15, 2018

    @Carighan.6758 said:

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
    There should be a significant amount of additional choices, particularly for deeply niche builds and top end variations.

    So the patch has come, and there's no real additional choices. This is a class-design issue btw, not one of gear. Gear was just a balance problem, which isn't the same.

    From a raiding perspective:

    At the very least monk runes are even better now for chrono. Take the restorative mantras trait along with mantra of pain over well of action and you got some good healing per second without losing out on boons since both chronos can 10 man soi spam. With that there's three rune sets for boon support chrono (leadership, durability and monk). That's three variants for the conventional chaos boon support build, a condition version of the support build, dueling/illusions when you don't need the cc (especially if there's a detonate plasma/other chrono is still running chaos) and a power dps build which got buffed due to the added ferocity that phantasms benefit from the new scholar runes. Defender runes also look promising for Deimos hand kiting (granted this hasn't been tested yet). That looks like a lot of choices for the chronomancer traitline compared to a lot of the other specs.

    "Class" was used and not elite spec so mirage will be included. Mirage has an axe build with two variants and a scepter build (predominately on the Soulless Horror boss). For open world, staff is also a really great weapon for them.

    Back to chrono(chaos/insp). Does it have balance issues compared to other support classes? Yes, it condenses so many jobs into one role that no other class can amount to. That doesn't mean it doesn't have choices in regards to gear. Leadership is you go to for most stuff, durability if you want to make it easier to take hits from hard hitting bosses in addition to that extra resistance and monk runes for when you play the healing variant. Commander/berserker, viper and minstrel/harrier follow the same process as the runes--commander/berserker for most stuff, viper when you go condition and minstrel/harrier when you want more healing power/survivability.

  • @GlobalReverse.8543 said:

    @Carighan.6758 said:

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
    There should be a significant amount of additional choices, particularly for deeply niche builds and top end variations.

    So the patch has come, and there's no real additional choices. This is a class-design issue btw, not one of gear. Gear was just a balance problem, which isn't the same.

    From a raiding perspective:

    At the very least monk runes are even better now for chrono. Take the restorative mantras trait along with mantra of pain over well of action and you got some good healing per second without losing out on boons since both chronos can 10 man soi spam. With that there's three rune sets for boon support chrono (leadership, durability and monk). That's three variants for the conventional chaos boon support build, a condition version of the support build, dueling/illusions when you don't need the cc (especially if there's a detonate plasma/other chrono is still running chaos) and a power dps build which got buffed due to the added ferocity that phantasms benefit from the new scholar runes. Defender runes also look promising for Deimos hand kiting (granted this hasn't been tested yet). That looks like a lot of choices for the chronomancer traitline compared to a lot of the other specs.

    "Class" was used and not elite spec so mirage will be included. Mirage has an axe build with two variants and a scepter build (predominately on the Soulless Horror boss). For open world, staff is also a really great weapon for them.

    Back to chrono(chaos/insp). Does it have balance issues compared to other support classes? Yes, it condenses so many jobs into one role that no other class can amount to. That doesn't mean it doesn't have choices in regards to gear. Leadership is you go to for most stuff, durability if you want to make it easier to take hits from hard hitting bosses in addition to that extra resistance and monk runes for when you play the healing variant. Commander/berserker, viper and minstrel/harrier follow the same process as the runes--commander/berserker for most stuff, viper when you go condition and minstrel/harrier when you want more healing power/survivability.

    If i remember the name correctly sanctuary runes are now better on tank chrono then durabiliy

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Carighan.6758 said:

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
    There should be a significant amount of additional choices, particularly for deeply niche builds and top end variations.

    So the patch has come, and there's no real additional choices. This is a class-design issue btw, not one of gear. Gear was just a balance problem, which isn't the same.

    The context of your statement doesn't match with Ireno's. There are real additional choices if you aren't fixated on pushing the 'only one build matters' meta mentality. The best part is that if you are pushing meta builds for a class, you don't care about variation anyways. You're just building for optimization. I mean, he straight up says the choices are particularly for deeply niche or top end variation builds .... and meta are neither of those.

    The new runes/sigils actually do what he says much better than the old ones did.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Carighan.6758 said:

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
    There should be a significant amount of additional choices, particularly for deeply niche builds and top end variations.

    So the patch has come, and there's no real additional choices. This is a class-design issue btw, not one of gear. Gear was just a balance problem, which isn't the same.

    The context of your statement doesn't match with Ireno's. There are real additional choices if you aren't fixated on pushing the 'only one build matters' meta mentality. The best part is that if you are pushing meta builds for a class, you don't care about variation anyways. You're just building for optimization. I mean, he straight up says the choices are particularly for deeply niche or top end variation builds .... and meta are neither of those.

    The new runes/sigils actually do what he says much better than the old ones did.

    There used to be much more variation in chronos gear before this patch. But that variation didnt come from runes but from traits. Truth is there is only 1 best chrono setup for each boss but there used to be big tradeof. After this change tradofs stayed the same but nonbasic builds become closer to the basic ones so actualy players that ussd the variation are rewarding less for their effort but they are paying the same (or more)

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 18, 2018

    Right .. so if the variation was in the traits, then essentially what is being said by Ireno is still valid. If anything, I see that if sigils/runes are all equalized, then it is entirely possible that even within a meta build, there is possibility of having variation in them as well. That's actually the problem here; A very specific Sigil was so good for the build, it was the obvious default every time, no matter what the situation. It doesn't make sense to complain there isn't any real choices when their wasn't any before either and THAT is the situation meta players accepted.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Einsof.1457Einsof.1457 Member ✭✭✭

    And we're dead now

  • Xstein.2187Xstein.2187 Member ✭✭✭

    @Einsof.1457 said:
    And we're dead now

    Nooooo, wait, wait, there might be some twitching left. Aaaaaand . . . .naw naw, it's dead.

2>
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