Sigils and runes during Raids — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Sigils and runes during Raids

MisterDapper.5984MisterDapper.5984 Member
edited November 6, 2018 in Fractals, Dungeons, and Raids

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/november-13-salvage-runes-and-sigils/

chrono tanks got screwed by the sigil of concentration nerf. If you recently made a chrono tank you just lost a ton of gold.

Comments

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Uhhh.. yes, the ferocity does make up for that. It's like a 2% damage loss, for every DPS. Big deal.

    Sigil got power taken away, some got put into runes. If you want the optimal setup you'll need a combo of both for it. But yeah, Concentration Sigil is the biggest loser in all of this most likely

    /shrug wait until you see it. This is a long needed update and you're overreacting over 1 "bad" thing you see

    "The Man that never sleeps. Well, except for the times I should be awake."
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  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MisterDapper.5984 said:
    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/november-13-salvage-runes-and-sigils/

    So basically DPS classes are screwed across the board from the 5% damage nerf and the +125 ferocity doesn't matter make up for that.

    Have you done the math to come to that conclusion?

  • maxwelgm.4315maxwelgm.4315 Member ✭✭✭

    @MisterDapper.5984 said:
    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/november-13-salvage-runes-and-sigils/

    So basically DPS classes are screwed across the board from the 5% damage nerf and the +125 ferocity doesn't matter make up for that.
    Moreover chrono tanks got screwed by the sigil of concentration nerf. If you recently made a chrono tank you just lost a ton of gold.
    Are we even going to be able to clear some of these raids?
    What is Anet thinking?
    I wouldn't be surprised if some players quit the game over this poor decision making. So much time and money goes into raiding and some of that you'll never get back now.

    On a complementary note to what the other people said, they are massively changing every rune and sigil in the game and there might be new combinations that more than make up for the loss of DPS in most cases. Also the loss is trivial and most groups are already well over the minimum DPS on every single boss. Your above-average Dhuum run finishes well around 2:25 and it's not uncommon to finish Qadim with several minutes remaining on the timer, etc.

    Same goes for sigil of concentration that was unnecessarily OP with 2 chronos already over-buffing the entire squad. I didn't even use it myself for example and no one ever noticed. I might buy one now since it'll be cheaper but there might be even better options lying around, specially as far as runes are concerned, they might change a lot of things. I'm personally excited for this.

  • I retract my former statement.

    Still really sucks for anyone who recently got into chrono tanking. If they're going to make this big of change. Some kind of compensation should be provided imo. My guildmate just lost a ton of gold because she made it a few days ago.

  • Grogba.6204Grogba.6204 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 6, 2018

    Laughs in legendary armor

    Torn on the Sigil of Concentration change, equipping more concentration gear feels bad but the changes to Scholar narrow the gap between <90% and >90% greatly. The loss of 5% damage will affect conditions the most... which are are more less or neglectable. On the other side, 125 ferocity is no joke and having said bonus up at all times is very nice actually. (Chip damage is a thing)

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MisterDapper.5984 said:
    I retract my former statement.

    Still really sucks for anyone who recently got into chrono tanking. If they're going to make this big of change. Some kind of compensation should be provided imo. My guildmate just lost a ton of gold because she made it a few days ago.

    1. It's a game and she didn't lose real money as long as she didn't convert money into gold (a thing veteran players shouldn't even think about).
    2. It's a game and everybody needs to be aware that changes are possible - every fricking (Tues)day.
    3. Ton of gold? Seriously, how many sigils were bought by her? Usually if you start to tank/play chrono you would buy maybe 2? Since the sigil is still worth some gold she didn't lose a "ton". Also, you'll make at least 50g per full clear a week - and that's only raiding. She or you should really get over it, lol.
  • @Grogba.6204 said:
    Laughs in legendary armor

    Torn on the Sigil of Concentration change, equipping more concentration gear feels bad but the changes to Scholar narrow the gap between <90% and >90% greatly. The loss of 5% damage will affect conditions the most... which are are more less or neglectable. On the other side, 125 ferocity is no joke and having said bonus up at all times is very nice actually. (Chip damage is a thing)

    Scholar never touched condi for damage boost. That’s why renegade runes and zerker runes were so good.

  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2018

    I always thought concentration sigil was stupid, I've never ran one, always choosing to use force/accuracy with more boon gear on an off-tank build, and water/transference on a healing chrono build.

    @MisterDapper.5984 said:
    Still really sucks for anyone who recently got into chrono tanking. If they're going to make this big of change. Some kind of compensation should be provided imo. My guildmate just lost a ton of gold because she made it a few days ago.

    Thats the life of strictly chasing the meta. No they shouldn't be refunded. Just 2 weeks ago we had this reddit thread:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/9qirmv/raiding_on_a_budget_week_1_27g_support/

    Your guild mate didn't have to jump into raiding by making a super expensive build. Many raiders start raiding with cheap builds to build up the resources to easily gear up the more expensive stuff. They could have made a cheap build, they chose not to.

  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2018

    Scholar damage boost is on power (condi was never in the equation, unless stated like Sigil of Bursting).

    New scholar rune : +125 ferocity = 8% (8.33% to be exact), plus additional 5% while HP above 90%. (Previously 10% dmg while HP above 90%). 13% in total sounds like a buff to me, and more viable too since players still retains 8% while HP below the threshold.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭

    Could tell you how many Sigils of Concentraton I own and use over many, many characters. Some of which are META and some are certainly not but this in itself already shows how broken that sigil is. And that always made it obvious that they might eventually do something about it. Buying expensive items always comes at a risk in this game. We have had many instances of ArenaNet introducing new ways of acquiring rare stuff or reintroducing certain expensive items later on. Sucks to be your friend but it is hardly any particularly big "loss".

    Nothing is particularly hard if you divide it into small jobs. Henry Ford

  • @Eramonster.2718 said:
    Scholar damage boost is on power (condi was never in the equation, unless stated like Sigil of Bursting).

    New scholar rune : +125 ferocity = 8% (8.33% to be exact), plus additional 5% while HP above 90%. (Previously 10% dmg while HP above 90%). 13% in total sounds like a buff to me, and more viable too since players still retains 8% while below the HP threshold.

    If it rly is 8 then it id 13.4% because those 5'percent increse the damage from fereocity too

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2018

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @MisterDapper.5984 said:
    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/november-13-salvage-runes-and-sigils/

    So basically DPS classes are screwed across the board from the 5% damage nerf and the +125 ferocity doesn't matter make up for that.

    Have you done the math to come to that conclusion?

    It's a nerf if you are above ~375 ferocity and a buff below with 100% scholar uptime. So it's actually a buff for Holo for example since he has only one weak ferocity trait and loses scholar during overheat.
    100% scholar uptime wasn't achievable on every fight anyways so it should be a buff on most bosses.
    My math could also be completely off, feel free to correct me.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭

    @Eramonster.2718 said:
    Scholar damage boost is on power (condi was never in the equation, unless stated like Sigil of Bursting).

    New scholar rune : +125 ferocity = 8% (8.33% to be exact), plus additional 5% while HP above 90%. (Previously 10% dmg while HP above 90%). 13% in total sounds like a buff to me, and more viable too since players still retains 8% while HP below the threshold.

    It's not that simple. You have to look at the increase you gain over your current critical damage to get damage gained by that ferocity, different for each build.
    Then you have to multiply the values instead of adding them since the 5% damage increases the critical damage aswell.

  • reikken.4961reikken.4961 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2018

    @Eramonster.2718 said:
    Scholar damage boost is on power (condi was never in the equation, unless stated like Sigil of Bursting).

    New scholar rune : +125 ferocity = 8% (8.33% to be exact), plus additional 5% while HP above 90%. (Previously 10% dmg while HP above 90%). 13% in total sounds like a buff to me, and more viable too since players still retains 8% while HP below the threshold.

    it's 8% critical damage
    like if your build has 250% crit damage when fully buffed, that 8% increases it by 258/250 = 1.032 times = 3.2% damage increase

  • I don't know about tanks,. but as a zerker/commander fractal chrono this won't be much of a hit. I'll just re-equip a few commander pieces to make up for the loss.

    The giraffe is an animal which, for sociopolitical arguments, I like to pretend does not exist.

  • Yea. The change to soc will not change meta (chrono will be even more matadory because this kills quickness firebrand). Just you would take reqular gear for chaos. What does this do is it removes dps (non chaos) chrono options and also makes the rotation mire boring

  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2018

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Eramonster.2718 said:
    Scholar damage boost is on power (condi was never in the equation, unless stated like Sigil of Bursting).

    New scholar rune : +125 ferocity = 8% (8.33% to be exact), plus additional 5% while HP above 90%. (Previously 10% dmg while HP above 90%). 13% in total sounds like a buff to me, and more viable too since players still retains 8% while HP below the threshold.

    It's not that simple. You have to look at the increase you gain over your current critical damage to get damage gained by that ferocity, different for each build.
    Then you have to multiply the values instead of adding them since the 5% damage increases the critical damage aswell.

    Woops :blush: ! You and reikken.4961 are both right, I totally ommitted it's crit dmg. Result does seems to be lower(nerf), by 1.5%-ish(?). Assuming 100% crit chance and with HP above 90% entire time...

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2018

    @MisterDapper.5984 said:
    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/november-13-salvage-runes-and-sigils/

    chrono tanks got screwed by the sigil of concentration nerf. If you recently made a chrono tank you just lost a ton of gold.

    You need to go to Auric to panic. Changing those zerk pieces to commander will get this boon duration back to 100% .

    Or crono tank will simply abandon that old build and run minstrel

    Or something else. People are resourceful. As far as crono is the only class that gets you alacrity and so much boons with quickness . It will never get screwed

    I dream of elves in GW2.

  • Can someone clarify if the new scholar rune gives 125 ferocity while you are above 90% or always and the threshold only refers to the flat 5% bonus?

  • Grogba.6204Grogba.6204 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2018

    @foste.3098 said:
    Can someone clarify if the new scholar rune gives 125 ferocity while you are above 90% or always and the threshold only refers to the flat 5% bonus?

    I assume it's just like that because there is a semicolon dividing the two.

    Also thanks for the clarification about Scholar not affecting Condi.

  • @Nephalem.8921 said:
    100% scholar uptime wasn't achievable on every fight anyways so it should be a buff on most bosses.

    Its a nerf if your current scholar uptime is above ~70% for most classes, 65% to 75% if you want to include all classes.

    But yeah, the nerf isnt that big and really depends on your ferocity. The more ferocity you have before the patch, the harder the nerf will be. Still pretty small though.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2018

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    100% scholar uptime wasn't achievable on every fight anyways so it should be a buff on most bosses.

    Its a nerf if your current scholar uptime is above ~70% for most classes, 65% to 75% if you want to include all classes.

    But yeah, the nerf isnt that big and really depends on your ferocity. The more ferocity you have before the patch, the harder the nerf will be. Still pretty small though.

    Most builds are Soulbeast and Weaver if my math isn't completely off.

    Its 2750/2625 * 1.05 = 1.1

    Means threshold is 375 with the excluded 50% base ciritcal damage. How did you get your scholar uptime values? Am i missing something?
    EDIT: Missed the 1.0 base damage :-(.

  • @Nephalem.8921 said:
    Most builds are Soulbeast and Weaver if my math isn't completely off.
    Its 2750/2625 * 1.05 = 1.1
    Means threshold is 1875 with the excluded 50% base ciritcal damage. How did you get your scholar uptime values? Am i missing something?

    Probably wasnt clear on that, but the values are compared to the new scholar rune.
    Basically if you dont have any food/runes/traits that give you ferocity the break even point is 75% uptime. If you do the Math with several classes and add the ferocity they get from traits food and stuff like that the break even point goes down to 65%. Basically if your group sucks with healing or you are facetanking every mechanic, you are still getting buffed with the new rune. The change rewards bad gameplay while (slightly) punishing good groups.
    I was only adding to your math since you did it under the assumption of 100% scholar uptime.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2018

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    Most builds are Soulbeast and Weaver if my math isn't completely off.
    Its 2750/2625 * 1.05 = 1.1
    Means threshold is 1875 with the excluded 50% base ciritcal damage. How did you get your scholar uptime values? Am i missing something?

    Probably wasnt clear on that, but the values are compared to the new scholar rune.
    Basically if you dont have any food/runes/traits that give you ferocity the break even point is 75% uptime. If you do the Math with several classes and add the ferocity they get from traits food and stuff like that the break even point goes down to 65%. Basically if your group sucks with healing or you are facetanking every mechanic, you are still getting buffed with the new rune. The change rewards bad gameplay while (slightly) punishing good groups.
    I was only adding to your math since you did it under the assumption of 100% scholar uptime.

    I get it now. Forgot something unnecessary like base damage. Well yeah even the worst pug groups had scholar uptimes above 80% so its just a nerf to all power builds and especially high ferocity builds like fresh air weaver.
    But who knows. Maybe they will destroy sigil of force and change it to ferocity aswell.

  • I dont use it on druid and still hit 60+% boon duration

  • @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    I dont use it on druid and still hit 60+% boon duration

    Thats generally cause Druid run Harriers, Harrier being a three stat combo has more concentration on the gear while Commander is a 4-stat

  • Artemis Thuras.8795Artemis Thuras.8795 Member ✭✭
    edited November 10, 2018

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Eramonster.2718 said:
    Scholar damage boost is on power (condi was never in the equation, unless stated like Sigil of Bursting).

    New scholar rune : +125 ferocity = 8% (8.33% to be exact), plus additional 5% while HP above 90%. (Previously 10% dmg while HP above 90%). 13% in total sounds like a buff to me, and more viable too since players still retains 8% while HP below the threshold.

    It's not that simple. You have to look at the increase you gain over your current critical damage to get damage gained by that ferocity, different for each build.
    Then you have to multiply the values instead of adding them since the 5% damage increases the critical damage aswell.

    if you're only doing a rough estimation, the number crunching that came up with a friend, is take the % critical damage gain, and divide by 2 (assuming 100% crit chance). It's not exact, but it gives a decent estimate that doesn't require number crunching for every build.
    Now considering a dev suggested 125 fero was 3-4% dmg, depending on situation - it seems anet has come to a similar conclusion. ( I'll link the comment when i find it again)

    So new scholar is going to give ~ 9% > 90%hp, and ~4% below 90% hp, as opposed to 10% & 0%. So for benchmarks/golem tests - it's a nerf. However in most* "real"** situations it's likely to end up being a buff.

    *most situations where dps is going to make an ounce of difference
    ** as real as video games get.

    edit:
    This is the thread with the dev comment about estimated effect on dps from ferocity. Dev post is not far down the first page.
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/59773/runes-and-sigils-rework-at-11-13/p1

  • people: concentration sigil nerf??? yay!!! chrono nerf!!! yay!!!!!!
    reality: concentration sigil nerf?? /gg firebrand+rev

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭

    @Artemis Thuras.8795 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Eramonster.2718 said:
    Scholar damage boost is on power (condi was never in the equation, unless stated like Sigil of Bursting).

    New scholar rune : +125 ferocity = 8% (8.33% to be exact), plus additional 5% while HP above 90%. (Previously 10% dmg while HP above 90%). 13% in total sounds like a buff to me, and more viable too since players still retains 8% while HP below the threshold.

    It's not that simple. You have to look at the increase you gain over your current critical damage to get damage gained by that ferocity, different for each build.
    Then you have to multiply the values instead of adding them since the 5% damage increases the critical damage aswell.

    if you're only doing a rough estimation, the number crunching that came up with a friend, is take the % critical damage gain, and divide by 2 (assuming 100% crit chance). It's not exact, but it gives a decent estimate that doesn't require number crunching for every build.
    Now considering a dev suggested 125 fero was 3-4% dmg, depending on situation - it seems anet has come to a similar conclusion. ( I'll link the comment when i find it again)

    So new scholar is going to give ~ 9% > 90%hp, and ~4% below 90% hp, as opposed to 10% & 0%. So for benchmarks/golem tests - it's a nerf. However in most* "real"** situations it's likely to end up being a buff.

    *most situations where dps is going to make an ounce of difference
    ** as real as video games get.

    Yes i did that and its a massive nerf in almost all situations. Both combined are just 8.4% for Holo with almost no ferocity bonus from traits. Scholar uptime above 90% was normal on most bosses. Sometimes even 100%.

    Its just a 7.9% damage increase for fresh air weaver while attuned to air. Its just a straight rune nerf.

  • @plushiesoda.8150 said:
    people: concentration sigil nerf??? yay!!! chrono nerf!!! yay!!!!!!
    reality: concentration sigil nerf?? /gg firebrand+rev

    Firebrand could provide more then 100% quickness anyway. Its just a matter of taking conc food over burn duration (at least thats what I did) and you should be fine and thats assuming you're a Quickness FB and not a support FB which has ~74% quickness with Harriers without food or buffs.

  • @Nephalem.8921 said:
    I get it now. Forgot something unnecessary like base damage. Well yeah even the worst pug groups had scholar uptimes above 80% so its just a nerf to all power builds and especially high ferocity builds like fresh air weaver.
    But who knows. Maybe they will destroy sigil of force and change it to ferocity aswell.

    Nah, gotta bring it in line with Concentration and Malice and buff it to 10%. /s

  • Knox.8962Knox.8962 Member ✭✭✭

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    I get it now. Forgot something unnecessary like base damage. Well yeah even the worst pug groups had scholar uptimes above 80% so its just a nerf to all power builds and especially high ferocity builds like fresh air weaver.
    But who knows. Maybe they will destroy sigil of force and change it to ferocity aswell.

    Nah, gotta bring it in line with Concentration and Malice and buff it to 10%. /s

    5% damage is basically 150 power in full dps gear and roughly 200 power in raid buffs. That's pretty much on par with the malice sigil already. Perhaps they'll make it a 4% boost to keep things aligned.

  • What this mostly does is actually indirectly buff chrono by heavily nerfing the only things that are sort of competitive with it, offensive alacrity renegade and quickness firebrand builds. These builds use sigil of concentration to inflate their boon duration while still being able to run mostly offensive gear everywhere else. Now they can't won't be able to get nearly as much boon duration without going heavily into gear with concentration stats, at which point they lose their superior personal dps which is the only thing they have going for them over chrono. GG anet, but we will see.

  • @Knox.8962 said:
    5% damage is basically 150 power in full dps gear and roughly 200 power in raid buffs. That's pretty much on par with the malice sigil already. Perhaps they'll make it a 4% >boost to keep things aligned.

    Idk. if you missed the /s or just wanted to explain thing, but yeah. Buffing Force Sigil would be ridiculous.

  • @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    What this mostly does is actually indirectly buff chrono by heavily nerfing the only things that are sort of competitive with it, offensive alacrity renegade and quickness firebrand builds. These builds use sigil of concentration to inflate their boon duration while still being able to run mostly offensive gear everywhere else. Now they can't won't be able to get nearly as much boon duration without going heavily into gear with concentration stats, at which point they lose their superior personal dps which is the only thing they have going for them over chrono. GG anet, but we will see.

    We could have a herald camping dragon stance and facet of nature to replace it

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