Devastation Vs. Invocation for Renegade

So obviously Renegade is always going to run corruption and renegade trait lines, but is devastation or invocation better in group play?

Devastation:Ferocious Strike = 150 ferocityAssassin's Presence = 1,125 ferocity spread across all teammates(5 people)Targeted Destruction = 7% extra damage vs vulnerable targets(is active 100% of the time)Swift Termination - 20% extra damage vs enemies below 50% hp, let's just be generous and call this trait a permanent 10% extra damage.

Total: 1,275 ferocity, 17% extra damage(not affecting conditions)

Invocation:Ferocious Aggression = 7% extra damage AND 7% extra condition damageRoiling Mists = 10% extra crit chance to give you 100% crit chance(up from 90%)

Total: 7% extra damage, 7% extra condition damage, 10% extra crit chance up to 100%.

Conclusion: Since Viper's gear runs power and precision stats, devastation is the way to go for things like raids or fractals. However, if you have another renegade in your group, it would be more dps to make them switch to invocation.

Considering power is just a small part of our damage compared to the number of conditions we put out, i think you are oversellling devastation.

@LucianDK.8615 said:Considering power is just a small part of our damage compared to the number of conditions we put out, i think you are oversellling devastation.

Not really, keep in mind sigil of bursting gives 6% condition damage and it doesn't even do much since it's based on your base condition damage. Keep in mind that 6% only ends up becoming like 50 extra condition damage.With a second renegade in your group, you're getting 7% extra damage, 7% extra condition damage, and 100% crit chance up from 90 VS. 150 ferocity and 17% extra damage. So with that, it's better to run as a 2nd of.

i think you meant sigil of bursting. But noone uses that because it only affects the base. condi revs tends to go with geomancy and smoldering.

@LucianDK.8615 said:i think you meant sigil of bursting. But noone uses that because it only affects the base. condi revs tends to go with geomancy and smoldering.

Smoldering? You mean malice? and yea i meant bursting, my bad. If you're referring to using smoldering on shortbow, shortbow sucks so it's out of the question. double mace/axe is still the highest dps.

Hrm im pretty sure QT used to be geomancy+smoldering for mace/axe. Whats the point in double axe/mace? Theres still an icd on geomancy.

@LucianDK.8615 said:Hrm im pretty sure QT used to be geomancy+smoldering for mace/axe. Whats the point in double axe/mace? Theres still an icd on geomancy.

QT uses malice + geomancy. Also you run two sets of mace/axe, both with malice sigils, one with geomancy, and one with hydromancy. legend swap triggers one of them, then weapon swap triggers the other. chill gives 2 stacks of torment for free basically. I actually think you only need one mace, just two axes.

Humm, but dont you overcap on +torment duration? With full viper and malice my torment is at 97.19% Goes to 100% easilly with either buff food or the expertise bonus from embrace the darkness? I agree the shortbow is fairly meh, but its given me something to do while im forced to be at range. Though I do wonder which renegade traits you pick and why.

@LucianDK.8615 said:Humm, but dont you overcap on +torment duration? With full viper and malice my torment is at 97.19% Goes to 100% easilly with either buff food or the expertise bonus from embrace the darkness? I agree the shortbow is fairly meh, but its given me something to do while im forced to be at range. Though I do wonder which renegade traits you pick and why.

I don't understand what you're trying to say about +torment duration. for renegade traits i run 2-2-2

Wasted stats essentially. With rare veggie pizza giving 100 expertise id hit about 106% torment duration, which is wasted due to the 100% cap. Which only grows more pronounced with embrace the darkness that increases all stats with 10%, incl. expertise. as I said, with full viper and using malice sigils, im at 97.19% increased torment duration.

@LucianDK.8615 said:Wasted stats essentially. With rare veggie pizza giving 100 expertise id hit about 106% torment duration, which is wasted due to the 100% cap. Which only grows more pronounced with embrace the darkness that increases all stats with 10%, incl. expertise. as I said, with full viper and using malice sigils, im at 97.19% increased torment duration.

What is being wasted, though? As far as I'm concerned the mallyx elite doesn't really matter since it's only up half the time.

So I looked at the expertise thing you're talking about, excluding mallyx(because having other stats to lose damage the other 50% of the time is not worth it), you'll be at 98.88% if you're full vipers with food buffs excluding one piece. QT has stated many times that even that 1.12% condition duration increase will give more damage output than another statline over time, this applies for high hp enemies like raids. for lower hp enemies, you'd be right that it is wasted stats. Also keep in mind, conditions not listed like burning are affected as well.

Hrm, interesting. Others ive spoken with was adamantly against overcapping. But youve convinced me.

@haventr.1630 said:

@LucianDK.8615 said:Hrm im pretty sure QT used to be geomancy+smoldering for mace/axe. Whats the point in double axe/mace? Theres still an icd on geomancy.

Condi renegade uses smoldering/geomancy

@haventr.1630 said:

@LucianDK.8615 said:Hrm im pretty sure QT used to be geomancy+smoldering for mace/axe. Whats the point in double axe/mace? Theres still an icd on geomancy.

You only need one Mace and Axe. Out mace in main hand on one weapon set and the axe in off hand on the other set. Weapon swap still works and you also have your full skill bar to boot.

@ZedEss.2041 said:

@haventr.1630 said:

@LucianDK.8615 said:Hrm im pretty sure QT used to be geomancy+smoldering for mace/axe. Whats the point in double axe/mace? Theres still an icd on geomancy.

The purpose of the second axe is to trigger a separate process of hydromancy. Standard rotation applies no chill, but we have a trait that applies 2 stacks of torment when applying a chill once every ten seconds. This perfectly aligns with your weapon swap. It's effectively 2 free stacks of torment each ten seconds if you have a second axe with hydromancy and swap weapons in addition to swapping legends. Note: it's not a huge dps increase, so don't prioritize this if you need the versatility of a staff or ranged weapon.

Whelp. I was wrong. Apparently invocation is very slightly bigger personal dps but, it doesnt out weigh the group dps increase from AP.

QT just posted their renagade build.

Apparently, the dps difference is about 800 when played with that level of skill. Suffice to say, its kinda obvious that AP can bring more party wide dps than that.

@Ertrak.9506 said:Whelp. I was wrong. Apparently invocation is very slightly bigger personal dps but, it doesnt out weigh the group dps increase from AP.

QT just posted their renagade build.

Apparently, the dps difference is about 800 when played with that level of skill. Suffice to say, its kinda obvious that AP can bring more party wide dps than that.

Good to know. None of the dps roles in my raid are power, though, so I have to wonder if the ferocity buff is still superior in this scenario. Probably, due to the reasonable amount of hybridization in recent condi builds.

I still prefer to have the shortbow in case I need to duck out for a mechanic over gaining 2 stacks of torment with a secondary hydromancy axe.

@Zenith.7301 said:I still prefer to have the shortbow in case I need to duck out for a mechanic over gaining 2 stacks of torment with a secondary hydromancy axe.

Agreed, except in cases where you can be confident you won't have to duck out much if at all. It's a very low duration proc. TBH, it would really be a wasted trait except for the rare occasion you wind up needing to use axe 4 or Mallyx leap skill.

I swear I'm the only person who runs both axe and sword off-hand for situations where I need to block.