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Stealth Rework 2.0

Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited October 23, 2019 in WvW

These are 2 suggestions I’d like to propose for Stealth mechanics in wvw AND spvp....

1- This would be the simplified suggestion...

Stealth effects used while out of combat or not Revealed- Same as now. Skills function to make the player(s) not visible.

Stealth effects while a player is flagged for combat or Revealed- Player(s) remain visible, but visually translucent (“cloaked” if you will). Stealth skills used while in combat are treated as a damage mitigation Boon, similar to Protection. This Boon could offer 20% damage reduction to Direct and Condition damages while in effect.

Sample scenario-

Mesmer drops https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mass_Invisibility on their team to get the jump on a group or to break targeting. Then enemy necros drop AoEs revealing the Mesmer’s group and flagging them for combat. Although the Mesmer’s group is now visible, they are translucent and carry a “cloak” damage mitigation buff of -20% to Direct and Condition damage for the duration of the Mass Invisible skill.

OR

2- In addition to increasing boon duration, Concentration could be a stat that provides a player Stealth “perception”....

So let’s look at some simple numbers...

10% Concentration would provide 100 radius Stealth perception.

22% Concentration would provide 220 radius Stealth perception.

43% Concentration would provide 430 radius Stealth perception.

...

...

100% Concentration would provide 1,000 radius Stealth perception... and this is where it is maxed.

(As above) Additionally, all Stealth skills could be worked to provide X% power and condition damage reduction while Stealth is active so it would still be useful even if detected...

Reveal remains as is to prevent the use of the “invisibility” portion of Stealth...

Changes like these provide better counterplay to Stealth. It creates more useful build options with gears and foods. Stealth now becomes more of a safety skill, and requires more intelligent use, as opposed to allowing players to attack freely from any position on the battlefield without fear...

These ideas would bring balance to Stealth mechanics in the game.

Ty for reading!

Edit- And before any Thief players QQ...

Max perception range for idea 2 is 1,000. Steal is 1,200. Shadowstep 1,200. Rifle Attacks 1,200/1,500. 2 Infiltrator’s Arrows take you 1,800 if you need to move in or escape... So I don’t want to hear any complaints about not being able to use Stealth to attempt an ambush.

<1

Comments

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    So basicly, concentration make you squint harder to see stealth.

    That actually makes sense.

    Lol basically...

    In game terms is could be explained as... “Concentration enhances your senses to be able to detect and perceive invisible foes...” or whatever.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    So basicly, concentration make you squint harder to see stealth.

    That actually makes sense.

    Lol basically...

    In game terms is could be explained as... “Concentration enhances your senses to be able to detect and perceive invisible foes...” or whatever.

    wouldnt the thief with concentration also be better at stealthing so you wouldnt see him if you tried? basically 100% concentraion on both = normal stealth?

  • So the way I am interpreting this, a thief would not be able to backstab you at all? I mean, you can get stealth on steal with SA, but if you aren't running DE, that stealth would immediately get revealed, since you steal to your target.

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    So basicly, concentration make you squint harder to see stealth.

    That actually makes sense.

    Lol basically...

    In game terms is could be explained as... “Concentration enhances your senses to be able to detect and perceive invisible foes...” or whatever.

    wouldnt the thief with concentration also be better at stealthing so you wouldnt see him if you tried? basically 100% concentraion on both = normal stealth?

    ^
    I think that would be a fair compromise. If a thief goes concentration then the stealth values would be enhanced. It would also mean that every class if they wanted to see stealth or be more effective at stealth would have to invest outside of pure damage stats.

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    oh also we talking boon duration or concentration? investing into concentration costs alot of damage, investing into boondruation not so much on some professions..

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    So basicly, concentration make you squint harder to see stealth.

    That actually makes sense.

    Lol basically...

    In game terms is could be explained as... “Concentration enhances your senses to be able to detect and perceive invisible foes...” or whatever.

    wouldnt the thief with concentration also be better at stealthing so you wouldnt see him if you tried? basically 100% concentraion on both = normal stealth?

    I didn’t include that in the suggestion.

    A thief with this type of Concentration rework would gain perception like any other user with Concentration.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shagaliscious.6281 said:
    So the way I am interpreting this, a thief would not be able to backstab you at all? I mean, you can get stealth on steal with SA, but if you aren't running DE, that stealth would immediately get revealed, since you steal to your target.

    You have to separate perception and Revealed for this scenario. 2 different things as noted by the mention of Reveal.

    A thief would still gain access to the backstab skill if the thief has the Stealth buff active... For all intents and purposes it becomes a heavy hitting skill from the flank or back. Is this a sufficient explanation?

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:
    I'm sorry you dislike Thieves so much, OP.

    I have a Thief, but thanks for the assumption.

    doesnt mean that you like the thief or his stealth.
    you know with such high ranges possible to see stealthed players, the ambush would have to be very certain leading to your death. so if anet ever decides to put something like that in, there is a big chance it comes along with backstab damage increased by 100%. i am sure everyone will be happy :3

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:
    I'm sorry you dislike Thieves so much, OP.

    I have a Thief, but thanks for the assumption.

    doesnt mean that you like the thief or his stealth.
    you know with such high ranges possible to see stealthed players, the ambush would have to be very certain leading to your death. so if anet ever decides to put something like that in, there is a big chance it comes along with backstab damage increased by 100%. i am sure everyone will be happy :3

    The backstab skill would still perform the same while the Thief had the Stealth buff on them... regardless of being detected or not.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 9, 2018

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:
    I'm sorry you dislike Thieves so much, OP.

    I have a Thief, but thanks for the assumption.

    doesnt mean that you like the thief or his stealth.
    you know with such high ranges possible to see stealthed players, the ambush would have to be very certain leading to your death. so if anet ever decides to put something like that in, there is a big chance it comes along with backstab damage increased by 100%. i am sure everyone will be happy :3

    The backstab skill would still perform the same while the Thief had the Stealth buff on them... regardless of being detected or not.

    i understand that you wish that. like people when they didnt want deadeyes to build the malice passively probably did not wish them to get tools to safer go in an out of stealth, but thats what we got. be careful what you ask for, you may get it - with addition.

  • Caedmon.6798Caedmon.6798 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 9, 2018

    We have reveals in this game as a counter to stealth,i dont see why there needs to be even more counter,we already have stealth traps aswell to counter it being the only item to counter a mechanic of a class.If you want to counter stealth,use your holos/rangers/warri and slot reveal,hell nec even has a reveal.

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm not sure you'd want to pour more utility into a stat that's already more than slightly OP at the moment. I'm not against it in principle, it's just that the builds most likely to have concentration are boon bunkers that are the least afraid of thieves in general.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • geist.4126geist.4126 Member ✭✭✭

    I think one of the best nerfs to stealth would be that you automatically drop stealth when using a skill and get a 3-5 sec reveal after that. Rework backstab that the "hit from stealth" works 2 seconds after breaking stealth. Delete the deadeye reveal removal or put a 120 seconds cd on it.

  • @Swagger.1459 said:
    In addition to increasing boon duration, Concentration could be a stat that provides a player Stealth “perception”....

    Edit- And before any Thief players QQ...

    Max perception range is 1,000. Steal is 1,200. Shadowstep 1,200. Rifle Attacks 1,200/1,500. 2 Infiltrator’s Arrows take you 1,800 if you need to move in or escape... So I don’t want to hear any complaints about not being able to use Stealth to attempt an ambush.

    I like the concept, but it's just going to promote more people to running condi evade spam thief and deadeye because backstab wont be a usable skill anymore. Making more braindead players. Dagger thief already hits like a wet noodle right now unless you are running crit strikes and/or assasins signet. As far as dealing with deadeye, it's all a out matchups certain 1v1s the deadeye should always win, and others it should lose. Generally if you have gap close and immob, they are super easy to deal with.

    If your having issues with thieves in stealth then play one for a hot second. Most of them are highly predictable.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2018

    @myboybuzzy.5809 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    In addition to increasing boon duration, Concentration could be a stat that provides a player Stealth “perception”....

    Edit- And before any Thief players QQ...

    Max perception range is 1,000. Steal is 1,200. Shadowstep 1,200. Rifle Attacks 1,200/1,500. 2 Infiltrator’s Arrows take you 1,800 if you need to move in or escape... So I don’t want to hear any complaints about not being able to use Stealth to attempt an ambush.

    I like the concept, but it's just going to promote more people to running condi evade spam thief and deadeye because backstab wont be a usable skill anymore. Making more braindead players. Dagger thief already hits like a wet noodle right now unless you are running crit strikes and/or assasins signet. As far as dealing with deadeye, it's all a out matchups certain 1v1s the deadeye should always win, and others it should lose. Generally if you have gap close and immob, they are super easy to deal with.

    If your having issues with thieves in stealth then play one for a hot second. Most of them are highly predictable.

    A quote by me from earlier.

    “The backstab skill would still perform the same while the Thief had the Stealth buff on them... regardless of being detected or not.”... Same as all the other skills that do extra from the flank or back.

    Being perceived or detected doesn’t remove the stealth buff. It’s all treated normally, except stealth on a character now gains x% power and condi damage reduction.

    Revealed removes the stealth buff.

    The difference now is that a thief can’t just remain invisible in close quarters against a player running Concentration in their build. The thief can hide out outside of range, gap close as normal... and fight in melee to short range while being seen by the player, or run to escape death... Hanging out in melee becomes riskier because a thief can’t just constant stealth over and over to remain unseen.

    And I have a thief.

  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    So basicly, concentration make you squint harder to see stealth.

    That actually makes sense.

    Lol basically...

    In game terms is could be explained as... “Concentration enhances your senses to be able to detect and perceive invisible foes...” or whatever.

    wouldnt the thief with concentration also be better at stealthing so you wouldnt see him if you tried? basically 100% concentraion on both = normal stealth?

    I'd say, expertise fits that better name wise, but i think concentration is better balance-wise.
    Also, instead of just removing stealth, or stealth duration, it should make the character more and more opaque. So minimal concentration benefit would make you see outlines, kind of like the predator, and the more benefit you get the better you see the guy, but never fully de-stealthed.

  • Genius idea!!! Not every class has access to reveal and stealth traps are mostly useless.

  • XECOR.2814XECOR.2814 Member ✭✭✭

    All thief qq from disguise. Op idea is actually good, just needs more polishing. Stealth is stupid and definitely needs inherent weakness to something which it doesnt have right now.

  • @Swagger.1459 said:

    “The backstab skill would still perform the same while the Thief had the Stealth buff on them... regardless of being detected or not.”... Same as all the other skills that do extra from the flank or back.

    Being perceived or detected doesn’t remove the stealth buff. It’s all treated normally, except stealth on a character now gains x% power and condi damage reduction.

    >

    And I have a thief.

    Didn't pick up on that, my bad.

    It could work and be a cool mechanic, I think they would have to buff some weapon skills damage for it to he balanced. Honestly it would probably effect mesmers more as many of them rely on stealth to land thier initial burst.

    I personally feel that stealth is pretty balanced accept for deadeye, but even they aren't that bad to deal with.

    War has reveal and rediculous survivability even without toughness and vitality with things like full counter, endure pain. Adrenal health, and a lot of access to resistance.

    Rev has high burst damage potential, glint heal, reveal, cc, blocks evades, gap closes, and some aoe.

    Guard has reveal blocks, heals and potential for some rediculous dps. I have the most trouble on 1v1s against good core guards, but that's probably because I've spent the least amount of time on guard.

    Ranger has reveal, aoe, lots of mobility, blocks, and evades for days. Not to mention the pet with sometimes tracks stealth.

    Engi has aoe, reveal on hit, double elixir s, and can be crazy hunky with traits like iron blooded, need I say more..

    Thief vs thief is some of the most fun 1v1 can get. This is where the real outlays happen

    Necro is the one that is can have trouble with stealth, primarily deadeye. However I only see potentially scourge running concentration and you already get punished enough for being up close to a scourge.

    Ele is is packed with reflects, has a trait where you cant crit against them, invulns, to a of sustain, cc and a few blocks.

    Mesmer is pretty easily counter with theif, but has tons of evades, stealth, invulns, and mobility. I dont see this change effecting this 1v1 except hurting power mirage even more.

  • borgs.6103borgs.6103 Member ✭✭✭

    I like the idea and it does indeed need more polish.

    How about a permanent concentration check (your concentration stats vs. the invisible person's) that only shows orange dots in a radius? The higher it is versus theirs, the more more times it updates as to where the dots are. It can also have a chance to "critically check" to make them target-able.
    Radius of checks are dependent on class + concentration value.
    Only the stealth caster's concentration value matters against these checks.
    Moving/using skills greatly decreases your chance to check. You have to stand still for a certain amount of time to maximize it.

    Although the whole idea would make the tactic of veil/mass invis pushes irrelevant. I'm out of ideas on to balance this. Maybe make those skills immune to this? Or perhaps the maximum achievable concentration value would make it immune to checks? That would make some very specialized mesmer builds mandatory in ZvZ fights.

    Check out the fable of the Boiling Frog.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think req concentration as others have said is a bit crippling for many builds but I do like where you're going with stealth perception.

    Maybe instead of a stat handling this it could be worked into the WvW Rank abilities instead.
    The more points invested into it the harder you are to spot and the easier it is to see others with less points invested.
    Or maybe some traits could be reworked in WvW such as Rangers Spotter which aside from granting a precision bonus also grants you a 5-10% chance to reveal a stealthed player when applied.

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Everyone needs to stop trying to overcomplicate the solutions to stealth and just go with a simple fix if you want to ever see anything.

    How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

    Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], [RaW][TACO] Alliance, Kaineng.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2018

    @Caedmon.6798 said:

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:
    Everyone needs to stop trying to overcomplicate the solutions to stealth and just go with a simple fix if you want to ever see anything.

    People are just too lazy to adapt builds to counter the thing thats killing them.Like i saw someone else say in another thread he doesnt want to waste a utility Just to counter De while he does have acces to counter it.Its like playing vs a condi build on warr and you dont want to use featherfoot or berserk util to counter the condi spamm.People dont want to adapt and think they should be able to counter every class and every spec on the build they currently run.DE can be countered by alot of classes if only they throw in reveal and learn when to use it.

    I think you need to learn about DE before you make comments like this... The community is not stupid.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Meld

    “Remove revealed and stealth yourself.

    Stealth (3s): Currently invisible. Ends if you deal damage.
    Maximum Count: 2
    Count Recharge: 45s”

    Not every profession has reveal. DE can cleanse Revealed 2 times so it can be pointless to try unless it’s a team effort to reveal...

    Edit- And before you call people “lazy” again, just realize that it’s you not putting in the effort to learn about the game...

    Path of Fire was released 9/22/17...

    My thread from 9/15/17

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/1521/shadow-meld-making-stealth-mechanics-even-worse

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    î can dodge 2 times so it is pointless to try attacking me.

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Do this the other way around, make stealth a boon that can be converted to chill.

    Give stealth a 2s duration. So if someone wants perma stealth they have to give up damage to get it.

  • syszery.1592syszery.1592 Member ✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    In addition to increasing boon duration, Concentration could be a stat that provides a player Stealth “perception”....

    ... and in addition with high concentration your character will ignore aegis (or blocks in general), dodges and protection. Maybe there can even be a Neo/Matrix mode (with 100% concentration) where the character can activate slow motion, stop projectiles, fly, revive other players (ok nvm the last one...)...

  • Caedmon.6798Caedmon.6798 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2018

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:
    Everyone needs to stop trying to overcomplicate the solutions to stealth and just go with a simple fix if you want to ever see anything.

    People are just too lazy to adapt builds to counter the thing thats killing them.Like i saw someone else say in another thread he doesnt want to waste a utility Just to counter De while he does have acces to counter it.Its like playing vs a condi build on warr and you dont want to use featherfoot or berserk util to counter the condi spamm.People dont want to adapt and think they should be able to counter every class and every spec on the build they currently run.DE can be countered by alot of classes if only they throw in reveal and learn when to use it.

    I think you need to learn about DE before you make comments like this... The community is not stupid.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Meld

    “Remove revealed and stealth yourself.

    Stealth (3s): Currently invisible. Ends if you deal damage.
    Maximum Count: 2
    Count Recharge: 45s”

    Not every profession has reveal. DE can cleanse Revealed 2 times so it can be pointless to try unless it’s a team effort to reveal...

    Edit- And before you call people “lazy” again, just realize that it’s you not putting in the effort to learn about the game...

    Path of Fire was released 9/22/17...

    My thread from 9/15/17

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/1521/shadow-meld-making-stealth-mechanics-even-worse

    I play DE myself.I do think its lazy if people that Do have the tools to counter choose not to do so because they have to waste another utility for it.I also didnt say Every class has reveal.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2018

    @Caedmon.6798 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:
    Everyone needs to stop trying to overcomplicate the solutions to stealth and just go with a simple fix if you want to ever see anything.

    People are just too lazy to adapt builds to counter the thing thats killing them.Like i saw someone else say in another thread he doesnt want to waste a utility Just to counter De while he does have acces to counter it.Its like playing vs a condi build on warr and you dont want to use featherfoot or berserk util to counter the condi spamm.People dont want to adapt and think they should be able to counter every class and every spec on the build they currently run.DE can be countered by alot of classes if only they throw in reveal and learn when to use it.

    I think you need to learn about DE before you make comments like this... The community is not stupid.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Meld

    “Remove revealed and stealth yourself.

    Stealth (3s): Currently invisible. Ends if you deal damage.
    Maximum Count: 2
    Count Recharge: 45s”

    Not every profession has reveal. DE can cleanse Revealed 2 times so it can be pointless to try unless it’s a team effort to reveal...

    Edit- And before you call people “lazy” again, just realize that it’s you not putting in the effort to learn about the game...

    Path of Fire was released 9/22/17...

    My thread from 9/15/17

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/1521/shadow-meld-making-stealth-mechanics-even-worse

    I play DE myself.I do think its lazy if people that Do have the tools to counter choose not to do so because they have to waste another utility for it.I also didnt say Every class has reveal.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed

    Sorry, but players aren’t being “lazy”, it just certain players, like you, don’t care about balance and would prefer to keep their crutches.

    This topic is bigger than DE anyway, it’s about stealth as a whole, and it’s about stealth reworks that are more developed for wvw and spvp modes.

    I honestly don’t care about thief defenders of stealth here, that profession has the absolute best mobility and positioning skills in the game, and thief can be extremely successful with minimal stealth use due to mobility and high damage output... Getting revealed on thief is easy to deal with, you just bail... and can bail easily.

    Again, you may not care about having balanced mechanics, but some of us do.

  • Stealth mechanic is absolut ok in this game just deadeye is a bit op, but in wvw a lot is stupid op like holo, war, soulbeast, condimirage ... .... .... so who cares....

  • @Raiden The Beast.3016 said:
    Stealth mechanic is absolut ok in this game just deadeye is a bit op, but in wvw a lot is stupid op like holo, war, soulbeast, condimirage ... .... .... so who cares....

    BTW BUFF TEEF

  • Aury.1367Aury.1367 Member ✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    So basicly, concentration make you squint harder to see stealth.

    That actually makes sense.

    Lol basically...

    In game terms is could be explained as... “Concentration enhances your senses to be able to detect and perceive invisible foes...” or whatever.

    wouldnt the thief with concentration also be better at stealthing so you wouldnt see him if you tried? basically 100% concentraion on both = normal stealth?

    No, then the thief can simply see other thieves. It shouldnt negate other peoples conc.

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    while i like the idea of a lesser form of stealth (or cloak) i think the suggested implementation is just bad. (the perception idea is just bad)

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I want press F3 and get permanent stealth without any additional clicks. Skill reusable after 3-15 sec(can discuss).
    Can we also add this suggestion in this context?

  • Doug.4930Doug.4930 Member ✭✭✭

    Doesn't need any rework at this time.

    Community already voted on which classes are the most overturned.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/87656/which-pof-profession-would-you-nerf

    I've linked this before. There are always groups of players that hate thieves. But most people think that other classes are far more unbalanced.

    @Swagger.1459
    Your rework ideas don't provide suitable compensation for what you're taking away from thief. You wish to nerf stealth into the ground which is fine if that's what you want. But what are you giving in return? 20% damage reduction is laughable. I'm assuming this is a mistake and you'll rectify it by providing other examples of more damage invulns for thief. Or perhaps more protection up time? 20% damage reduction is not a fair exchange when the class has 11k base hp, with a weapon that relies on hitting a target from behind, which would become 100% impossible with your "rework".

    Or are you implying that the class that received 5% of community votes in a thread asking which PoF class needs a nerf is in fact the most overpowered class? And that the other 95% of the community who didn't vote DE are wrong? Or perhaps 95% Of those voters are all thief players?

    A rework implies a change that doesn't Nerf the class but changes the way it functions. You're thread is not a stealth rework. Its a plz nerf thief into the ground thread.

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm not really sure if the stealth mechanics need to be reworked overall just because a boring elite spec was introduced. I'd rather see the elite spec reworked to have another theme. With the exception of things like countering reveals or how certain builds can stack stealth the stealth-reveal mechanics themselves in GW2 are rather enjoyable and tends to work pretty fine. The issues with stealth is almost always limited to specific Thief builds and then it is more a question of figuring out what they are supposed to do instead since they also almost always are very dependent upon that kind of stealth. Daredevil was a nice addition to the Thief class whereas Deadeye was problem-ridden from the get-go, it's just a bad theme for PvP.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 23, 2019

    @Doug.4930 said:
    Doesn't need any rework at this time.

    Community already voted on which classes are the most overturned.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/87656/which-pof-profession-would-you-nerf

    I've linked this before. There are always groups of players that hate thieves. But most people think that other classes are far more unbalanced.

    @Swagger.1459
    Your rework ideas don't provide suitable compensation for what you're taking away from thief. You wish to nerf stealth into the ground which is fine if that's what you want. But what are you giving in return? 20% damage reduction is laughable. I'm assuming this is a mistake and you'll rectify it by providing other examples of more damage invulns for thief. Or perhaps more protection up time? 20% damage reduction is not a fair exchange when the class has 11k base hp, with a weapon that relies on hitting a target from behind, which would become 100% impossible with your "rework".

    Or are you implying that the class that received 5% of community votes in a thread asking which PoF class needs a nerf is in fact the most overpowered class? And that the other 95% of the community who didn't vote DE are wrong? Or perhaps 95% Of those voters are all thief players?

    A rework implies a change that doesn't Nerf the class but changes the way it functions. You're thread is not a stealth rework. Its a plz nerf thief into the ground thread.

    Let me break this down for you....

    Thief can sit in stealth prior to attacking.

    Thief can port in, or range with https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stealth_Attack

    Thief is now in-combat and revealed. Whatever Stealth skill used keeps on ticking to provide a damage mitigation "cloak" for the duration.

    Thief needs to run, then they use their toolbox of skills that lets them run away easily.

    Yes, Thief starts with BASE 11k HP, and so does Ele and Guardian. It's not like gear with Vitality doesn't exist, or the plethora of runes, sigils, foods and infusions.. that provide Vitality either.

    Thief has the top mobility and positioning skills in the game, along with the plethora of evades. And those are their strongest defenses and damage mitigation skills.

    …. Seriously, those who have been playing long enough know there is no "poor thief". Yup, Thief team based builds suck by comparison, but let's not qq about the fighting prowess here, because some of us aren't that naïve. And a Stealth change affects all Stealth skills, not just on Thief.

  • Doug.4930Doug.4930 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 23, 2019

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Doug.4930 said:
    Doesn't need any rework at this time.

    Community already voted on which classes are the most overturned.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/87656/which-pof-profession-would-you-nerf

    I've linked this before. There are always groups of players that hate thieves. But most people think that other classes are far more unbalanced.

    @Swagger.1459
    Your rework ideas don't provide suitable compensation for what you're taking away from thief. You wish to nerf stealth into the ground which is fine if that's what you want. But what are you giving in return? 20% damage reduction is laughable. I'm assuming this is a mistake and you'll rectify it by providing other examples of more damage invulns for thief. Or perhaps more protection up time? 20% damage reduction is not a fair exchange when the class has 11k base hp, with a weapon that relies on hitting a target from behind, which would become 100% impossible with your "rework".

    Or are you implying that the class that received 5% of community votes in a thread asking which PoF class needs a nerf is in fact the most overpowered class? And that the other 95% of the community who didn't vote DE are wrong? Or perhaps 95% Of those voters are all thief players?

    A rework implies a change that doesn't Nerf the class but changes the way it functions. You're thread is not a stealth rework. Its a plz nerf thief into the ground thread.

    Let me break this down for you....

    Thief can sit in stealth prior to attacking.

    Thief can port in, or range with https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stealth_Attack

    Thief is now in-combat and revealed. Whatever Stealth skill used keeps on ticking to provide a damage mitigation "cloak" for the duration.

    Thief needs to run, then they use their toolbox of skills that lets them run away easily.

    Yes, Thief starts with BASE 11k HP, and so does Ele and Guardian. It's not like gear with Vitality doesn't exist, or the plethora of runes, sigils, foods and infusions.. that provide Vitality either.

    Thief has the top mobility and positioning skills in the game, along with the plethora of evades. And those are their strongest defenses and damage mitigation skills.

    …. Seriously, those who have been playing long enough know there is no "poor thief". Yup, Thief team based builds suck by comparison, but let's not qq about the fighting prowess here, because some of us aren't that naïve. And a Stealth change affects all Stealth skills, not just on Thief.

    And yet they only received 7 out of 118 votes: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/87656/which-pof-profession-would-you-nerf
    Care to explain why that is?

    EDIT: I don't hope to convince you, I'm just linking this thread so If an anet dev reads posts like yours, they are constantly directed to a polling thread that shows what the majority of players really think about thief. People that hate thief make a lot of noise. But are the minority. Your thread will be buried like all the others that lack substance and reasoning, and simply aim to nerf the class they hate fighting.

    @Turk.5460 said:
    I'm sorry you dislike Thieves so much, OP.

    What he said.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Just remove stealth and give thieves and messmers compensation for it with something different. Stealth has always been a horrible mechanic plagued by the fact ontop of stealth the classes in question get other cool toys to play with ontop of stealth.

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Just remove stealth and give thieves and messmers compensation for it with something different. Stealth has always been a horrible mechanic plagued by the fact ontop of stealth the classes in question get other cool toys to play with ontop of stealth.

    Give them bigger base hp, invuls, blocks, stab, resistance, retal, the works. That is what will probably happen. Gutting stealth will undoubtedly buff it in another direction that will make people scream endlessly into pillows lol.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I already build with damage reduction plus DR from revealed and it really only buys me a second or two to scramble out of a pile of circles, I need more in return for giving up my position, likely having to dedicate and consistently use utility slots to close distance with Quickeness to land Stealth attacks, and then hope I've hit some passable damage threshold to maybe hurt someone If I've somehow got close enough.

    You can limit my stealth stack duration before cutting off my use of Stealth Attacks at something like 4-6 seconds maybe and I'd still be fine with using long duration stealth for masked travel only. This idea just feels like saying, 'you thieves go ahead and kitten up your builds to maybe have chance to kill us when there's not a whole squad around but give us more so we can leave our builds alone'.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL]

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DemonSeed.3528 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Just remove stealth and give thieves and messmers compensation for it with something different. Stealth has always been a horrible mechanic plagued by the fact ontop of stealth the classes in question get other cool toys to play with ontop of stealth.

    Give them bigger base hp, invuls, blocks, stab, resistance, retal, the works. That is what will probably happen. Gutting stealth will undoubtedly buff it in another direction that will make people scream endlessly into pillows lol.

    Id take all of that over freak'n getting nuked from no where.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DemonSeed.3528 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Just remove stealth and give thieves and messmers compensation for it with something different. Stealth has always been a horrible mechanic plagued by the fact ontop of stealth the classes in question get other cool toys to play with ontop of stealth.

    Give them bigger base hp, invuls, blocks, stab, resistance, retal, the works. That is what will probably happen. Gutting stealth will undoubtedly buff it in another direction that will make people scream endlessly into pillows lol.

    Sorry, but the proposal doesn’t involve “gutting stealth”. It makes stealth mechanic more balanced, have more counter play and provides damage mitigation buffs too.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 26, 2019

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @DemonSeed.3528 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Just remove stealth and give thieves and messmers compensation for it with something different. Stealth has always been a horrible mechanic plagued by the fact ontop of stealth the classes in question get other cool toys to play with ontop of stealth.

    Give them bigger base hp, invuls, blocks, stab, resistance, retal, the works. That is what will probably happen. Gutting stealth will undoubtedly buff it in another direction that will make people scream endlessly into pillows lol.

    Sorry, but the proposal doesn’t involve “gutting stealth”.

    The post he answered to did.

    Your proposed changes aren't really a valid solution either. The first one will either change the supposedly evasive/deceptive class' playstyle into a facetanking one or be simply irrelevant.
    The second one just guts the stealth and makes it unusable during fights for the classes that were balanced around it for the past 7 years. Overally seems to me like gutting stealth anyways.