Why we think WvW is not going well [Merged]

First off, if you don't think WvW is dying then this post is not for you. Second, I understand some Devs might think "Oh Prince! We know very well why WvW is dying, we have the numbers, the statistics, we are on this guild leaders discord and we are being provided valid opinions ..... we got it all.... we are working on it (aka alliances or whichever) but thank you for the post"...…. I still don't think you understand, and the proof is, you are not growing your WvW population.

Back in the day and during NA prime time, I used to see queues on 2 to 3 maps if not the 4 (with a short queue on one of them). Over the last 5 months, I've been on 4 different servers (with their link(s) if any) and sometimes see one map queued but almost never two maps queued anymore (except reset night). Speaking of reset night, I was shocked to see some servers (with their links) don't have the 4 maps queued.

1- Do you think WvW is not friendly for new players ? (please don't get confused with these under-skilled/skill-capped players that has been playing this game for years)2- What happened to multiple guilds running 20 to 25 players closed raid? Why is everyone blobbing these days? Even those should be skilled guilds..... they are fat now!3- Is WvW GW2 turned into Range Wars (Revs and Necros, with couple weavers)? What happened to damage from warriors, old school damage guardians etc?4- I heard people complaining about stealth and pulls meta, should we factor this in as a "no fun"?5- Back in the day, no one cared about which tier they are in as long as they get fun fights. Unfortunately that's not the case anymore and numbers/blobbing seems to matter a lot. Since the linking system is regulated by a crappy system, it is more of a luck whether you get linked with good server or not. Anet thinks they got it all sorted our since they have so-called valid statists and numbers . How do you think Anet can fix this? Ignore the fact that Alliances is coming out soon, because you never know!

Here is my opinion why it is turning crap these days: (again, it is just my opinion)1- The formed player-based alliances on some of the servers in presence of such crappy linking system: I've been in the three alliances formed on Kn, Ar and SoR. The idea behind making us a one big alliance (~500 players) is amazing, hands down.... however when mixed with such linking system pushed the game towards more "blobbing". I am not saying that these alliances is the reason behind the meta blob, but it definitely encouraged it. Inspired by the success of the Kn alliance, a lot of other guilds started mimicking it (I am sure a lot will deny this). This forced servers to get super populated since everyone is trying to merge. Again, in the presence of such linking system, this messed up everything. Last match up, I was in T1 with SoR and everyone is running from us and we were stuck fighting siege. I see this as lose-lose situation, if you're in a fat blob, no one will fight you, if you're the smaller blob, you will run away and maybe leave.

2- So much range..... assuming both ends are equally skilled: Of course, if you have the opportunity to press W on top of your enemy, that's good. However, reaching this close-range fight requires so MUCH range. This tactic for new players is heavily punishable! It is a turn off for a lot of new player coming to play WvW. I am saying this based on experience, I tried to introduce new players to this game mode. Again, don't count the skill-capped players that has been playing this game for years; these guys will get one-pushed and come back and fight... and so on. long-story short, rest in peace melee classes.... I am sure you will be able to see 1 or 2 spellbreakers on the dps chart... sometimes, but they were never as significant as a scourges or revenants for example.

3- So-called Meta builds: How many times have you heard "Kick this Dragon Hunter from the squad.... go have life, L2P Firebrand" or "Tempest??? wth is this guy running, kick him/her".... The mix between blobbing and following a "meta" build is very essential these days for a known pugmander or a guild. The only way you might get away with playing a class/spec you want to play is to join on an unknown pugmander, roam around or somehow your guild is okay with it, in some rare cases. This really turned off

4- Anet too much focus on fixing issues rather than enhancing positives: Anet, you will never make everyone in WvW happy, while fixing issues are of great importance, you need to continue forcing the fun aspect of WvW. In my opinion (and I am sure in most everyone's opinion) fights is where the fun come from. Make it more rewarding for people to fight, to get the kill, not just standing behind a long T3 wall with stupid siege and ACs. Force more fights over capping. You know very well that fighting is where the fun come from, yet you also know very well that PPT and hiding behind your objective is the most anti-fun crap.... then you add further boring anti-fight options such as siege disabler AND fortified walls..... jesus Anet, what are you thinking?! I don't know what's your plan for alliances, PLEASE don't add crap like that... force us to fight. You know very well that 20 players standing by trebs to take a wall down is NOT fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't get too much stuck on my opinion, again, this is just one person's opinion. This is not the point here! Please share with the Devs and let them know your own opinion why you think WvW is not appealing as before and what suggestions to avoid this from continue on happening.

Aka Prince!

@"PrinceKhaled.5104" said:

1- Do you think WvW is not friendly for new players ? (please don't get confused with these under-skilled/skill-capped players that has been playing this game for years)WvW has never really been friendly to new players. Experienced guilds usually don't want to spend to effort to train new players.

2- What happened to multiple guilds running 20 to 25 players closed raid? Why is everyone blobbing these days? Even those should be skilled guilds..... they are fat now!Guilds run fatter and fatter to counter the blobbing and nuthugging these days. Yes that means more people nuthug to fight bigger guilds but it's always been like that too.

3- Is WvW GW2 turned into Range Wars (Revs and Necros, with couple weavers)? What happened to damage from warriors, old school damage guardians etc?Radiance guard at the end of HoT was definitely fun. With WoD nerf, melee pushes are definitely a lot more viable.

4- I heard people complaining about stealth and pulls meta, should we factor this in as a "no fun"?Being able to blast stealth out of someone's vision for like 13 seconds is pretty lame.

5- Back in the day, no one cared about which tier they are in as long as they get fun fights. Unfortunately that's not the case anymore and numbers/blobbing seems to matter a lot. Since the linking system is regulated by a crappy system, it is more of a luck whether you get linked with good server or not. Anet thinks they got it all sorted our since they have so-called valid statists and numbers . How do you think Anet can fix this? Ignore the fact that Alliances is coming out soon, because you never know!

Blobbing as always been a thing, it's just been worse recently because at least on NA, people decided they wanted to "train" for alliances. 3-4 guilds on one map for one server. map queues or nothing.nothing anet can really do other than lower the cap on maps, but that means more queues

it double posted...

In terms of balance:

Server system(linking is so bad and if done wrong you're held hostage for 2 months till the next re links) is bad we're hoping alliances fix that but i don't think it will since the only way to truly balance matches is spreading all the guilds out evenly and not have them stack guilds in a alliance. We'll see i guess.

Zerg meta:

Range is way more rewarding(Scourges and revs from max range) than melee atm when it should be the other way around. Balance atm could be better but it's certainly not the worst with some tweaking we could see a golden era in wvw in terms of meta.

Purpose:There's not much point in playing wvw other than getting some good large scale pvp. Would like to see a more rewarding gamemode in terms of individual and guild to have something the players can work towards. For getting ultimate dominator you should get more than a title also capping T3 keeps and castles should give a lot more than wxp and a crusty champ bag.

@PrinceKhaled.5104 said:You know very well that fighting is where the fun come from, yet you also know very well that PPT and hiding behind your objective is the most anti-fun kitten.... then you add further boring anti-fight options such as siege disabler AND fortified walls..... jesus Anet, what are you thinking?! I don't know what's your plan for alliances, PLEASE don't add kitten like that... force us to fight. You know very well that 20 players standing by trebs to take a wall down is NOT fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

your fun might be limited to fights only. fighting for what? fighting where ? and why? i personally prefer to fight over something.be it a camp, a tower, a keep, even over a map doesnt matter. for this many aspects of PPT, all those siege, tricks , traps, tactics, using the map to make your opponent aware of you or not, everything the mode offers is of value, is part of the fun. yes the fight aswell but that is just a minor aspect of the bigger game.your right 20 players just standing by a trebs is not fun for them, they could do much more usefull things in that time but that would require a brain and we are talking zergs here, as far as i know in a zerg an individual does not have such a thing.

I think WvW repeats a never ending cycle that's often thorted by ArenaNets delivery of content or lack there of. The term we throw around, "dying" as in "This game is dying", "This server is dying", "This tier is dying.", "This guild is dying." are largely baseless claims but lets focus on the topic, "WvW is dying". We don't have any accurate measures to prove that this is the case, but we can utilize what we know of the game. Like the games buy to play anti-subscription model that allows for any game mode to swell beyond belief when new content is delivered. For those who've played over these 5 to 6 year, we've experienced these sudden burst in the game mode itself and when they happen we are impacted with dramatic queue times NA. You see while world versus worlds active population is down because of lack of content Guild Wars 2 itself is still one of the most successful MMOs to date, thus in reality all Arena Net has to do, is provide for more content and updates to incise the games already existing and never-ending population to play WvW. (This does not mean, they will stay or wont dissipate back to not playing WvW)

1- Do you think WvW is not friendly for new players ? GW2 -WvW is more accessible to newer players than 90% of the MMOs out there simply based on how easy it is to hit the highest levels and obtain gear necessary to WvW. Friendly is a weird term, and one I wouldn't associate to any form of PvP MMO game mode in any game that's competitive.

2- What happened to multiple guilds running 20 to 25 players closed raid? Why is everyone blobbing these days? Even those should be skilled guilds..... they are fat now!Back in the day where the number of leaders willing to dedicate a large chunk of their lives to maintaining a guild in a stale game, we as a WvW community could provide for multiple groups spread throughout multiple servers with 20 to 25 aimed at skilled play. Today we have WAY less dedicated leaders, yet we still have pugs, members, friends and server mates who seek a organized force to follow. Welcome to the age of Pug commanders just pinning up when they're bored trying to sap the fun out of the game. Until Arena Net gives the WvW community a bigger and greater reason to organize, improve and compete you wont see a bunch of new leaders/ guilds come out the wood work.

3- Is WvW GW2 turned into Range Wars (Revs and Necros, with couple weavers)? What happened to damage from warriors, old school damage guardians etc?Skill balance and metas change with the wind, this is hardly the reason as to why the game is in a poor state. But yes it sucks for now when you fight forces 30+ with pugs next to respawns.

4- I heard people complaining about stealth and pulls meta, should we factor this in as a "no fun"?People find anything to complain about especially when they rather not figure out how to deal with it.

5- Back in the day, no one cared about which tier they are in as long as they get fun fights. Unfortunately that's not the case anymore and numbers/blobbing seems to matter a lot. Since the linking system is regulated by a crappy system, it is more of a luck whether you get linked with good server or not. Anet thinks they got it all sorted our since they have so-called valid statists and numbers . How do you think Anet can fix this? Ignore the fact that Alliances is coming out soon, because you never know!I don't think this is correct. The more and more you go back in time, the more blobby it is. The more people cared about the tier they were in. The more people tried to manipulate to control the tiers. More people bought guilds to stack. Server- Links was a terrible mistake done while scrapping Battlegroups AKA Alliances. Now look where we are. Enough said. Arena Net can fix this by producing what the community has wanted for the last 4 years of this game since before Server-Links. In my opinion they are doing just that. It will take a lot of time. Patience is key.

1- The formed player-based alliances on some of the servers in presence of such crappy linking system ....TL;DRStop seeing this time right now in the game as end all be all. The only reason the KN alliance formed was due to preparation for alliances underneath the very same fault system you described. To prepare we simply had no choice, but to start and reside on a world otherwise known as "dead". Time now is preparation and it will get worse before it gets better. What should matter top KN, and any other alliance is finding the right friendships, team mates and server mates for the system of the future and preparing for that. Other then that, the only thing that matters is sapping the little bit of fun from this stale game. The other two alliances may have appeared to mimic the KN alliance but they just took the initial concept and moved with their unique plans and ideas behind them. All three are different, shouldn't be compared and each at a different point in their creation. Also, everyone is running from SoR, because you're one of the most stacked yet falling to T4 fighting servers you shouldn't be fighting. one might want to look on the inside instead of whats going on around. The game mode wasn't designed for a well populated world to tank.

wvw died when tournaments were removed. also when doing wvw gave worlds a boost was removed.

Thank you for sharing your opinions everyone, please keep it going.

To me this post really sums up what goes wrong when developers lose communication / touch with their playerbase. You can see what happens when that occurs when looking at the diablo immortal fiasco. I often wonder if we could ever get in touch with Gaile to create some kind of biweekly or monthly feedback poll/direct communication/Q&A session with the development team just to keep everyone in the loop and keep the development team in terms of feedback. Is there anyway to contact Gaile directly about that?

@MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 said:To me this post really sums up what goes wrong when developers lose communication / touch with their playerbase. You can see what happens when that occurs when looking at the diablo immortal fiasco. I often wonder if we could ever get in touch with Gaile to create some kind of biweekly or monthly feedback poll/direct communication/Q&A session with the development team just to keep everyone in the loop and keep the development team in terms of feedback. Is there anyway to contact Gaile directly about that?

Lol, I love your suggestion about a periodic feedback, maybe not Gaile herself but maybe some associate or representative...…. however, I don't think they would do

@PrinceKhaled.5104 said:

@MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 said:To me this post really sums up what goes wrong when developers lose communication / touch with their playerbase. You can see what happens when that occurs when looking at the diablo immortal fiasco. I often wonder if we could ever get in touch with Gaile to create some kind of biweekly or monthly feedback poll/direct communication/Q&A session with the development team just to keep everyone in the loop and keep the development team in terms of feedback. Is there anyway to contact Gaile directly about that?

Never hurts to ask!

You guys all play the game wrong.

-Too much Zerging

There is no need to Zerg 24/7. WvW is an open world pvp. All the objectives require 1-5 people to capture at most unless defending numbers are greater.

99% of these open world maps are empty because everybody is located in one place flipping camps or chassing 2-3 enemy while the enemy Zerg is on a completely different map.

The combat system is ruined with more than 10- 15 people. It becomes a game of luck and all the intricacies of the game are removed. It severely dumbs down the game and creates shallow game play.

This is also why the average WvW player barely grasps the game and WvW Meta builds are “YEARS” behind and are not honestly effective.

This has been the trend since 2015.

@MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 said:To me this post really sums up what goes wrong when developers lose communication / touch with their playerbase. You can see what happens when that occurs when looking at the diablo immortal fiasco. I often wonder if we could ever get in touch with Gaile to create some kind of biweekly or monthly feedback poll/direct communication/Q&A session with the development team just to keep everyone in the loop and keep the development team in terms of feedback. Is there anyway to contact Gaile directly about that?

i dont think that actually asking the players on a forum will provide more accurate information, than they can get out of their logs and statistics. while i personally would like to see them sharing more statistics etc. with their community, its also risky as it can cause as much issues as not providing any info.

@MUDse.7623 said:

@MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 said:To me this post really sums up what goes wrong when developers lose communication / touch with their playerbase. You can see what happens when that occurs when looking at the diablo immortal fiasco. I often wonder if we could ever get in touch with Gaile to create some kind of biweekly or monthly feedback poll/direct communication/Q&A session with the development team just to keep everyone in the loop and keep the development team in terms of feedback. Is there anyway to contact Gaile directly about that?

Logs and statistics of damage and log in numbers are not necessarily what I am after. I am more interested in hearing people's feelings and concerns. There is a reason they have those feelings and concerns because of experiences they have had in the game, in working with WvW, playing it etc. Its clear something is causing them to feel that way and providing a way to address those feelings and concerns, a way for the community to express those feelings and concerns, provides them with a way dealing with those issues and maintaining a healthy game and community. Otherwise I generally feel many people's reaction would be to leave the game, but I think a healthier alternative would be to provide that feedback to the developers so they can improve the experience and maintain that community.

Reward Reward Reward , majority of ppl wont set foot on it b/c there is no reward they need in WvW.

1. give real rank ability not useless siege ability
2. make real rank ability useable in pve
3. remove limit on pip reward
4. remove score current WvW is nothing but a WvD(door)
5. if u need more idea just copy come stuff from Daoc like Relics and Minotaur Relics
6. imagine a GW2 server is losing power, strength, gold, magic find relics, large amount of players will stop their pve and rush into WvW to defend their precious relics
7. from daoc Minotaur relics are all over Wvw maps anyone can pickup and gain special ability, of course these ppl are also marked so enemy will be out looking to take over their relics.

@Limodriver.4106 said:Reward Reward Reward , majority of ppl wont set foot on it b/c there is no reward they need in WvW.

1. give real rank reward not useless siege ability
2. make real rank ability useable in pve
3. remove limit on pip reward
4. remove score current WvW is nothing but a WvD(door)
5. if u need more idea just copy come stuff from Daoc

I like where you're going with this.

The reason is simple.

WvW is not fun.

It demands too much of players' time.

A bottomless pit, except for players who used to live in this mode and contributed a great deal of their time and money.

Maybe those players were unusual individuals with special life style that majority players could not emulate.

Hoping to capture more and more of players time in this game, this game has become less and less fun.

@MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 said:To me this post really sums up what goes wrong when developers lose communication / touch with their playerbase. You can see what happens when that occurs when looking at the diablo immortal fiasco. I often wonder if we could ever get in touch with Gaile to create some kind of biweekly or monthly feedback poll/direct communication/Q&A session with the development team just to keep everyone in the loop and keep the development team in terms of feedback. Is there anyway to contact Gaile directly about that?

@MUDse.7623 said:

@MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 said:To me this post really sums up what goes wrong when developers lose communication / touch with their playerbase. You can see what happens when that occurs when looking at the diablo immortal fiasco. I often wonder if we could ever get in touch with Gaile to create some kind of biweekly or monthly feedback poll/direct communication/Q&A session with the development team just to keep everyone in the loop and keep the development team in terms of feedback. Is there anyway to contact Gaile directly about that?

Actions are an external effect from the result of an internal thought. What we really want to nail down is the internal thought, where did the action come from. Of course we cant please everyone, but that is kind of purpose of a poll is to provide those major concerns, those major points of contention. The points in which the majority of the playerbase feels is important, which is good because we cant play a game by ourselves, we have to interact with other people and gamers.

In terms of the time investment, absolutely we cant bring forth and absolute dedication of time, but at the moment, based on my experience, we seem to be lacking that point of contact, those points of communication. Even if that communication is brief in the form of a poll, that means alot to people and its very important to maintaining that connection with the playerbase. We can surely find that balance so that development time is also connecting with the playerbase, even if its just for an hour every 2 weeks or month, that is surely better than nothing.

Again this data does not take into the concerns the internal thoughts and feelings of players and the community. If it is a matter of sample size, you could even let the WvW players know through in game polling and/or response etc, there are definitely ways getting to as many people as possible and hearing their feedback so to speak.

I think people are here because they like the game, they want to see it succeed, they are here because they want to see it improve. I definitely think people would make those suggestions because they would want to continue spending time with the game and community.

The joke that is called the Balance Team.And their refusal to nerf some of the pet classes or fix some of these huge burst classes that can put you in downstate in a second or two.

@MUDse.7623 said:

but i still would like them to base their changes mainly on their data and not because a few people on a forum got a feeling.

Oh!!!!! man.... I respect your opinion but please don't advice them that. They've mostly been doing it anyways. I can't disagree enough

@MUDse.7623 said:

gw2 is doing fairly good for a 6 year old MMORPG:Dude, GW2 has been out there for 6 years.... they haven't died but they haven't grown. Just because a game didn't fully die doesn't mean they are doing fairly good. Imagine your words on any business in life. Do you really want to know which MMO is doing good now? :disappointed: Again, I appreciate you sharing your opinion. Keep it going.

@MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 said:To me this post really sums up what goes wrong when developers lose communication / touch with their playerbase. You can see what happens when that occurs when looking at the diablo immortal fiasco. I often wonder if we could ever get in touch with Gaile to create some kind of biweekly or monthly feedback poll/direct communication/Q&A session with the development team just to keep everyone in the loop and keep the development team in terms of feedback. Is there anyway to contact Gaile directly about that?

if they make a poll, people will expect them to do what the poll says. even if anet just wants an opinion. you can tell make an ingame mail and tell people that there is a poll and a huge group still wont bother. do their opinions not matter ? sure they do, but they might not be willing to take the time to vote, then we have people complaining that 'casuals' were allowed to vote that do not have enough impact on the mode etc. etc.i am not against them communicating, i just dont want them to just change because a bunch of people on the forums demand it.

@PrinceKhaled.5104 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

but i still would like them to base their changes mainly on their data and not because a few people on a forum got a feeling.

@MUDse.7623 said:

gw2 is doing fairly good for a 6 year old MMORPG:Dude, GW2 has been out there for 6 years.... they haven't died but they haven't grown. Just because a game didn't fully die doesn't mean they are doing fairly good. Imagine your words on any business in life. Do you really want to know which MMO is doing good now? :disappointed: Again, I appreciate you sharing your opinion. Keep it going.

MMORPGs have a lifetime, they do not like a buisness constantly grow. people want something new for entertainment from time to time and with time the technical options are getting better. i mean just look at older games graphics and newer ones and it will keep improving. maybe someday you wont be able to controll in your MMORPG with your keyboard and mouse anymore etc. so i dont think it will be worth for a company to stick to the game 'forever' and expecting an ever growing population, the effort needed to make this possible would not be worth it. its just better to make a new game from time to time.

@MUDse.7623 said:

@MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 said:To me this post really sums up what goes wrong when developers lose communication / touch with their playerbase. You can see what happens when that occurs when looking at the diablo immortal fiasco. I often wonder if we could ever get in touch with Gaile to create some kind of biweekly or monthly feedback poll/direct communication/Q&A session with the development team just to keep everyone in the loop and keep the development team in terms of feedback. Is there anyway to contact Gaile directly about that?

Well lets address your concerns individually.

If they make a poll, I think the community would like to know those concerns are being addressed, that would be sort of the purpose of the poll. I would imagine they would even say this takes time, but that is ok, having that form of communication in the first place really alleviates concern, it gives the playerbase a chance to express their concerns and gives the development team time to address those concerns.

If it is a matter of collecting votes and sample size, we could take the polling over the period of a week to give people and different schedules time to provide that feedback. Its definitely something we could tinker with to improve over time, like many things!

I apologize, but it goes back to that main point, the game is really something for everyone to participate in and enjoy. If there is an element of the game that is causing many people to not enjoy it, it would be good to address those concerns. We cant play games by ourselves, well at least we cant play mmorpgs by ourselves, but having those other players and actors gives us a chance to enjoy the game. Sharing in that enjoyment. So my hope is that we give everyone a chance to enjoy the game and give everyone a chance to voice their concerns, that is important in many aspects of daily life, not just games!

@MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 said:To me this post really sums up what goes wrong when developers lose communication / touch with their playerbase. You can see what happens when that occurs when looking at the diablo immortal fiasco. I often wonder if we could ever get in touch with Gaile to create some kind of biweekly or monthly feedback poll/direct communication/Q&A session with the development team just to keep everyone in the loop and keep the development team in terms of feedback. Is there anyway to contact Gaile directly about that?

i guess we have to agree to disagree.there are not many cases where i would think a poll is a good solution.