How evil are GW2’s necromancers? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

How evil are GW2’s necromancers?

And why does the world see me as a hero?
I am a necro, iam evil.. and the world does not care

Its the reason i dislike necromancers, as a roleplayer the world reactions kill my immersion with the class and stories

Comments

  • @Dace.8173 said:
    Necromancer doesn't need to be evil. Evil Necromancers are just a trope. Magic related to death and unlife is not an inherently evil concept. As a roleplayer, I loathe tropes that demand something must be good or must be evil. It removes agency away from the user.

    Medling with dead and decay to gain personal powers in general makes people atleast frown uppon you..

    Necromancy is a selfish thing. And while the actions of a necromencer will not allways be evil.. general opinion, the general population will view the datk nature of necromancy as being evil..

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lordbachus.6091 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:
    Necromancer doesn't need to be evil. Evil Necromancers are just a trope. Magic related to death and unlife is not an inherently evil concept. As a roleplayer, I loathe tropes that demand something must be good or must be evil. It removes agency away from the user.

    Medling with dead and decay to gain personal powers in general makes people atleast frown uppon you..

    Necromancy is a selfish thing. And while the actions of a necromencer will not allways be evil.. general opinion, the general population will view the datk nature of necromancy as being evil..

    Necromancy is not an inherently selfish thing. Whether or not meddling with the dead and decay is going to get folks to frown upon you has more to do with cultural beliefs around death than it does the art of Necromancy.

    Tyria is clearly a world that doesn't hold the same taboos over the dead that some other fantasy worlds may use. Seems to be a very common theme with Guild Wars, that they don't dogmatically follow standard tropes but instead use them in their own and unique way. That's what makes the setting so much fun.

    It's also worth noting, in this game, even if you play a Necromancer you killed two dragons and a god, why would they view you as evil?

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Necromancy is just one form of magic that's used. If the user is evil or not is to be decided on an individual level. The necromancers we interact with through the story for example don't experiment on humans, nor do we ever summon anything human-like in that regard, while evil necromancers that we would see and fight tend to do that kind of stuff.

    Very passive aggressively chuckling, because I'm totally not mad on the Internet.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 10, 2018

    Also a thing to note is when does the necromancer actually deal with the dead? All the beasts are simple summons - you never raise any dead humanoids. Most of the skills have nothing to do with the dead, its pretty much all corruption of some sort (or pure damage). They also has healing and support skills to bring downed players on their feet or heal and protect those still in the fight. Why would the general population view them as evil?

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 10, 2018

    dark and evil aren't the same thing. necromancy is usually seen as evil because undead creatures (and as an extension necromancy) defy the natural laws of life and death which in tyria doesn't seem to be the case. on top of that necromancers do hold functions in tyrian society outside of combatants (such as priests of the dead) so necromancers aren't automatically shunned outsiders.
    besides being attacked by a swarm of locust can't be that much worse then burning to death.

    humans in gw2 especially wouldn't see necromancy as evil because grenth is one of their gods

    also to note is that morality is subjective

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • Rhyse.8179Rhyse.8179 Member ✭✭✭

    Death is just another part of the life cycle. Necromancers in Tyria are generally seen as a bit distasteful/smelly, but otherwise just like any other magic user. Norn Raven Shamans (Raven= the Spirit of knowledge, cunning, and peering into the unknown) are usually necros, the Sylvari in general (cycle of life and rebirth, like plants) are fully open to it, the Asura don't care (knowledge=good, nothing else matters). The only ones with any hangups are humans (because dead things are stinky - please keep your research OUTSIDE) and Charr (because they distrust all magic). Tyria is a world where the afterlife is a foregone conclusion, people can visit it and come back, and ghosts are commonplace and even speak with their descendants on a regular basis. Death is not a mystery.

    As a self-described role player, you should know better then to bring the lore of another gaming universe into the roles you play in this one.

  • @lordbachus.6091 said:
    And why does the world see me as a hero?
    I am a necro, iam evil.. and the world does not care

    Its the reason i dislike necromancers, as a roleplayer the world reactions kill my immersion with the class and stories

    What is good what is evil is in perspective

  • Illconceived Was Na.9781Illconceived Was Na.9781 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2018

    @lordbachus.6091 said:

    I am a necro, iam evil.. and the world does not care

    canonically, no

    • The player character is not evil, according to the lore of the game.
    • Necros in general are not evil either. Like any one, some are bad people, some aren't.

    There are other games which allow more options in role playing, but for a variety of reasons, most MMOs can't offer that many choices.
    (For starters, the game would need branching dialogue. It's already difficult to acknowledge race, gender, or profession, as it requires a minimum of 5 translations per line, even if there's just one line different.)

    Yes it could be fun if there were more options. But no, until then, your necro is not evil nor is your player character.

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2018

    yeah if some necro raised my dead brother (not dead) and forced him to start wailing on me I would think tahts some pretty evil stuff right there. even if they just walked away I would be pretty mad.

    you don't know till you know, ya know.

  • See the difference between Grenth and Dhuum in the lore. Grenth is good (though gloomy) and Dhuum is evil. Both could be considered necros

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2018

    This topic is greatly dismissive of past lore.. that could be attributed to Anet though and how they brought the Necromancer into Gw2 and adapted it for the new gameplay style.

    Fact is though the Necromancer exists because it was a popular and beloved class in Gw1 and in Gw1 there was a far bigger focus on selfless aspects of the Necromancer which have not been transferred as well to Gw2.

    Necromancers are NOT! a selfish proffession, actually they are the complete opposite.
    Self sacrifice was a big part of their original playstyle in Gw1, sacrificing their own health and pulling curses, hexs and conditions from their allies onto themselves.
    Some of this play does exist in Gw2, specifically their ability to pull conditions from allies to themselves and also the ability to inflict conditions on yourself to empower skills or transfer to your enemies but the bulk of the Necromancers self sacrifice stuff wasn't added to Gw2 likely because it would have made them annoying to use or limited their builds with skills involving health sacrifice being either unsused because they're not good enough to justify it or overused because they're too good and thus people complaining about nerfing it all the time.

    Yes they are dark art practitioners and they steal the life force of others but they use that power to aid others as well as themselves.
    Their good/evil allignment is like all people based on the individual.
    There are evil Warriors, Guardians, Mesmers, Elementalists etc even in Gw1 there were Evil Monks lol
    Speaking of which the Ritualist was another Gw1 class that could summon the dead to do it's bidding and those spirits were bound in chains like slaves.
    Add to that the Revenant in Gw2 can channel the power of a regicidal mass murderer and a literal demon XD

    Guildwars as a franchise does not take good and evil in such a cliche way.. even the Elder dragons are not for the most part evil, they are just forces of nature doing what they exist to do.
    Good and evil is perceived differently by the individual.. just look at the Charr who despite being allies and friends to humans are still ruthlessly tribalistic to their own.. Just play through the Charr personal story and count how many times you hear them threaten one another with a violent death.
    Charr culture is brutal and cruel in many ways.. and it is so easy for a human to look at that and think.. wow this is one evil race.
    And yet the Charr are one of the biggest contributors to the united races effort against the Elder Dragons, and not just soldiers but technology, weapons..
    Not evil.. just different.

    Same applies to Necromancers.. they're not evil, just different.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Never forget that for the guys you fight the players are all evil overpowered serial killers. Come on, elder's dragons are part of the law of the world and you killed a few of them, literaly destroying the world. You regularly enter into other race (grawl, ettins, kraiths... etc.) settlement and go on a killing rampage. The necromancer is truly evil for it's enemies and so is the guardian despite being all light and goodness.

  • XECOR.2814XECOR.2814 Member ✭✭✭

    Just think that they dont know that you do necromancy and you are evil in the disguise of a hero.

  • First, let's remember necromancer minions are not necessarily made out of people. A necromancer can perfectly have a deal with a slaughterhouse, abattoir or butchery to get the discarded scraps no one buys, then make minions out of that and keep them in the basement of their house in cold storage to summon them later as much as they can make them on the fly from the corpses of enemies or fallen allies.
    They may by able to steal life force or reap it from deaths, but they can use it to heal allies.
    They can put curses on people, but they can also empower allies.
    So it It depends on the necromancer.

    There's also differences between how each race sees them:

    • For humans, necromancers are suspicious and have a bad reputation because they are often seen near cemeteries. Priests of Grenth do not have the biggest fanbases either. But they are usually respected. Better to have a necromancer lurking in the graveyard than grandma's skeletal hand grabbing your knees when you walk past her tomb.
    • Norn necromancers are usually followers of Raven. Since norn tend to flirt with risky behaviors and death all the time, it's not a big deal for them if someone is a necromancer.
    • Asura necromancers usually come from the college of Synergy. Being a necromancer is not rare among asura, and many important and famous asura ahve been necromacners, like Oola. Unless you are doing some shady stuff with the inquest no asura will have any problems with it.
    • Charr do not like spellcasters, specially in the black citadel, but they will be tolerated. They may have to prove themselves more than other professions, tho. The Ash legion are likely the ones most likely to allow necromancers, since they have a longer tradition with them even back when they were under the control of the flame legion. Most charr necromancers had the word "ash" in their names like "Ash walker".
    • For sylvari both life and death are so new that necromancer is just like any other profession. Those born at dusk or night will be more likely to be necromancers than others.

    The classic "necromancer" archetype tends to be dark and brooding, that doesn't necessarily apply to players.

    If we were to use D&D's alignment:

    • Players are always of Good alignments.
    • Official necromancers like those who work in cemeteries making sure people do not rise up as undead, or priests of Grenth will usually be Legal alignments.
    • Those belonging to 'enemy' factions will usually by of Evil or Chaotic aligments. For instance, most inquest are chaotic neutral, legal evil, or chaotic evil.
    • For the rest, it could be anything.
  • Toll Booth Willie.6723Toll Booth Willie.6723 Member ✭✭
    edited November 12, 2018

    Asura Necro
    "Be excellent to each other." - Wild Stallions

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 14, 2018

    My Scourge is a Charr. He is Ash Legion, since Ash both has a history with necromancers, and a wider-sighted willingness to embrace the unconventional, which the other legions lack. He is not evil, and in fact isn't even really that dark in his personality. His sire was a Flame Legion shaman, and as a cub, he was curiously attracted to Ascalon's old ruins and ghosts (he is a necroscope, see link above). That magical heritage naturally led him to grow up into a subject matter expert on Tyria's various undead problems. He first studied the ghosts of Ascalon and the Orrian magic of the Risen (core necro); later on, as things got weird in Elona, he began studying the Awakened and the Elonian styles of necromancy, hence him becoming a Scourge. He visits Ebonhawke and Divinity's Reach regularly, and tries hard to be a good ambassador for both the Charr and his often misunderstood profession.

    Two human kids in Ebonhawke are talking, not noticing the dark-hooded Charr sitting in the shade nearby...

    Kid #1: "I hear they're letting Charr into the city now."
    Kid #2: "Really? Why? I heard they eat humans!"
    Nemo: "Ahem."
    Kids: "Oh!"
    Nemo: "Don't run; I don't bite unless you ask for it. Come talk to me a minute."
    Kids: "Uhhh..."
    Nemo: (Charr teeth grinning) "That's an order from the Commander."
    Kids: "THE Commander?"
    Nemo: "The THE myself."
    Kids: "Oh, wow! Uhhh...we didn't know you were a Charr..."
    Nemo: "That's OK. Sit; let's talk."
    Kids: "Uhhh, OK."
    Nemo: "Now, first off: I've never eaten anybody, and I don't know a Charr who has. The Charr you hear things like that about are long gone. Well, mostly; there's still the Flame Legion, but even most of them aren't that crazy. Have you read any history, like in school or whatever? How the Charr conquered Ascalon and scared Orr into sinking itself? Yeah. The Charr today are not the Charr who did that. You may not realize it as humans seeing the Charr from the outside, but our culture inside has changed. So has human culture, too. It's been over 200 years since those things happened. There's been a lot of contact, a lot of fighting, a lot of everything, between all the races. And we've all left our marks on each other, for good or ill. We're all becoming more alike as time goes on. Some people don't like that, like the separatists and renegades fighting outside right now. But it's inevitable, really. Just like life and death, a function of time. It's been over 200 years. You've changed, we've changed, and we need to leave the bad blood behind. Especially with everything that's in front of us, from the dragons and crazy gods and Skritt knows what else. We've got to learn to work together, to live together, or we'll all die separately. I may be a Charr, but I'm on your side. Understand?"

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Speaking of which the Ritualist was another Gw1 class that could summon the dead to do it's bidding and those spirits were bound in chains like slaves.
    Add to that the Revenant in Gw2 can channel the power of a regicidal mass murderer and a literal demon XD

    Ritualists definitely weren't all cuddles and white light, that's for sure. Heck, Dervishes with scythes and all covered in bones weren't exactly knights in shining armor either.

    As for Revenants, if you pay attention to the dialogue Revenants have with their channeled legends, it's pretty clear that Shiro and especially Malyx are NOT being channeled willingly. Here's some actual game quotes...

    Shiro: "The Emperor feared my great power. Do you?" Revenant: "Do your worst, I could use a laugh!"
    Malyx: "You can't hold me forever!" Revenant: "But I can hold you as long as I need to."

    Whereas the more benevolent spirits, which basically is all the others, are at least willing to be helpful when channeled. Jalis and Kalla in particular have friendly, respectful dialogue with the player. Jalis: "You fight like a natural born dwarf!" Revenant: "I learned from the best."

    With all that in mind, I'd say the moral scope of Revenants is just as broad and player-defined as necromancers. The profession is not inherently evil; it's what you make it.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jimbru.6014 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Speaking of which the Ritualist was another Gw1 class that could summon the dead to do it's bidding and those spirits were bound in chains like slaves.
    Add to that the Revenant in Gw2 can channel the power of a regicidal mass murderer and a literal demon XD

    Ritualists definitely weren't all cuddles and white light, that's for sure. Heck, Dervishes with scythes and all covered in bones weren't exactly knights in shining armor either.

    As for Revenants, if you pay attention to the dialogue Revenants have with their channeled legends, it's pretty clear that Shiro and especially Malyx are NOT being channeled willingly. Here's some actual game quotes...

    Shiro: "The Emperor feared my great power. Do you?" Revenant: "Do your worst, I could use a laugh!"
    Malyx: "You can't hold me forever!" Revenant: "But I can hold you as long as I need to."

    Whereas the more benevolent spirits, which basically is all the others, are at least willing to be helpful when channeled. Jalis and Kalla in particular have friendly, respectful dialogue with the player. Jalis: "You fight like a natural born dwarf!" Revenant: "I learned from the best."

    With all that in mind, I'd say the moral scope of Revenants is just as broad and player-defined as necromancers. The profession is not inherently evil; it's what you make it.

    I'm aware, those interactions are one of my favorite things about the Revenant ^^
    My point was more that it's not uncommon in the Guildwars universe for players and NPC's to use or even abuse powers that come from darker places for good intentions.

    Going back to Guildwars1 where duel classing was an encouraged thing pretty much everyone had the ability to adopt dark arts for their secondary profession regardless of their main.. even Monks could take on Necromancer traits :)

    It's just power.. and I think Tyrians more or less see it that way too, judging the user by their actions and not from where their power comes from.

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭

    Yep. It's not the power, or the source of the power that matters. It's how you apply it, and to what ends.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2018

    Evil is evil, lesser, greater, middling - makes no difference. The degree is arbitrary, the definition blurred. If I'm to choose between one evil and another, I'd rather not choose at all. - (c) Witcher 3

    Necromancy isn't evil, unless you make it evil. Is Elementalist evil to use power of elements?

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Necromancers in ultima 8 aren't necessarily evil, so it doesn't have to.

    In fact:For all you know the necromancers could use their magic to appease the dead to let them rest?

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Trahearne was a necromancer, was Trahearne evil?

    Necromancers in this game have the power to control the dead, but are the dead evil?

    Fall down seven times, get up eight.

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭

    @Axl.8924 said:
    Necromancers in ultima 8 aren't necessarily evil, so it doesn't have to.

    In fact:For all you know the necromancers could use their magic to appease the dead to let them rest?

    In D&D, there are certain gods of the dead and their priests that are exactly that. Protectors of the dead, enemies of undeath. Stands to reason necros in this game could do the same. Especially if you RP your necro as a priest of Grenth, or even a Charr who simply wants to stop those pesky ghosts from getting up again.

  • Necromancers use death energy. They are not evil. In fact, a lot of main characters in the story are n fact Necromancers. Trahearne, Marjory, etc...

    One of the Order of Whispers NPCs say: "Not all light shines outward. Darkness is not necessarily the absence of light."

  • jbrother.1340jbrother.1340 Member ✭✭✭

    @lordbachus.6091 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:
    Necromancer doesn't need to be evil. Evil Necromancers are just a trope. Magic related to death and unlife is not an inherently evil concept. As a roleplayer, I loathe tropes that demand something must be good or must be evil. It removes agency away from the user.

    Medling with dead and decay to gain personal powers in general makes people atleast frown uppon you..

    Necromancy is a selfish thing. And while the actions of a necromencer will not allways be evil.. general opinion, the general population will view the datk nature of necromancy as being evil..

    Creepy maybe but not evil.

    We are hanging around with dead things all the time. Sort of like a magical mortician. The world needs them, they just don't want to be seen in public with Uncle Fester.

  • ZeftheWicked.3076ZeftheWicked.3076 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 25, 2018

    Remember that little poppy you had? How it died? How you cried?

    Well, now it's my bone minion...until i explode it.
    You're welcome!

  • Farkon.2170Farkon.2170 Member ✭✭
    edited November 25, 2018

    The classes source of strength in this game feels as though there's no lore to them. I mean, there's not even class specific story quests, you start the game as your class and poof your powerful. Most stories start off with a hero gaining/learning a power, yet here your power is already established and there's nothing to explain it. Like, how did my guardian who was born in the streets become one?

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Farkon.2170 said:
    The classes source of strength in this game feels as though there's no lore to them. I mean, there's not even class specific story quests, you start the game as your class and poof your powerful. Most stories start off with a hero gaining/learning a power, yet here your power is already established and there's nothing to explain it. Like, how did my guardian who was born in the streets become one?

    The lack of an in-game mission set that explores the profession doesn't mean they lack lore. We have lore on all of them. Sure I would have loved to have had those types of missions but honestly, it's not that big of a deal. There are plenty of games where your character's powers really aren't explained. It's all different kinds of ways of telling a story. Such missions tend to create a very generalized backstory. When I play SWTOR, my character's journey as a Jedi is exactly the same as everyone else so everyone in the gameplay the same Sith I am playing has the same explanation of how they went from being on the streets to becoming an Imperial Agent. That isn't a bad thing but it also doesn't mean that it was a good thing.

    This game opted to focus on the meta-narrative, the story about the quest itself and not the details about your job. There are merits to that approach as it gets the character straight into the main stories action.

  • InsaneQR.7412InsaneQR.7412 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 26, 2018

    Sorry dude but its world lore that necromancy is just normal use of magic. You are not evil using it, rather evil misusing it but that applies to all of magic.

  • Necromancy in guild wars has never been evil. Simply in-universe lore. This is not Forgotten Realms, Warcraft, etc.. It is its own universe with its own lore.

    That is all there is to it. It wouldn't be the first setting with none-evil necromancy at that, it isn't exactly a novel concept. See D&D's White Necromancers.

    Do you want a balanced GW2? Then you are obliged to unironically agree with this suggestion!

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