How to balance DH-sPvP

Technically DH is fine as it is, but since the game is currently in an awful balance and since it is quite hard to perfectly balance the game again, we have to consider giving DH some little buffs. It´s not about giving damage buffs, but about giving some more utility to the skills.In this thread I´m gonna focus on:

• A movement speed buff

• A "true shot" rework

• A "wings of resolve" buff/rework + bug fix

• First of all the movement speed. With the last patch Anet/you gave 25% movement speed to DH IF the "wings of resolve" are NOT on cooldown, which is awful.Let me explain why. DH always used to be some sort of a roamer (with 1v1 potential) but still dependend on mobility. With "PoF" there came so much faster professions to the game that DH doesn´t have any chance to catch up with them if not using "rune of the lynx" which causes a heavy lack of dps/burst/sustain. If you give 25% movement speed included in a minor trait to DH (just as chronomancer has with "time marches on") it would be possible to change the rune depending on personal preferences or matchups. This in my opinion would be a pretty healthy development for the game, because it increases the build diversity again.

• Secondly "true shot" : Many people want to have a damage buff for this skill but there i disagree. I think you should make it possible to move while casting this skill, cause kneeling down and simply casting a skill is not very interactive and being able to jump/move properly while casting a skill allows great plays and this again would greatly increase the skill cap.If you felt like this might be a little bit too strong, simply increase the cooldown by 1 or 2 seconds. Ofcourse this would be a damage nerf but therefore you´d get a as I said way more interactive skill

• "Wings of Resolve" : This skill is well known for randomly being interupted in the first 0.01 seconds but still being on full cooldown. This is bullshit ! But here is how to fix this problem.Make the first 1/4 or even (1/3) seconds of the cast time an evade. Like that you would prevent these stupidly random interrupts which cause the full cooldown and you´d allow some more plays with the skill BUT there would still be 3/4 seconds of a possible counterplay to interrupt the skill on purpose.In addition you really gotta fix the most frustating bug on this skill. The decription says ("Cures Immobilized") but often when you either have a lot of conditions or if you are rooted you keep being immobilized which doesnt make ANY sense ( e.g. the warrior movement skills work )

• At last I have a little wish which you dont HAVE TO take into account but it still would make me smiling if you did this change. Allow "spear of justice" being casted like "Zealot´s Embrace" (Hammer 3). This means make it possible to cast the spear with your back facing the opponment but then beeing able to suddely turn around and throw the spear.

Good post @BlueCar.1587

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 check this out... not sure if there are any anet mods that look @ what we post about DH on the Guardian forum

I just wish he didn't move so slow.

@"BlueCar.1587" said:

• At last I have a little wish which you dont HAVE TO take into account but it still would make me smiling if you did this change. Allow "spear of justice" being casted like "Zealot´s Embrace" (Hammer 3). This means make it possible to cast the spear with your back facing the opponment but then beeing able to suddely turn around and throw the spear.

REALLY like this point. Honestly I wish more casted skills functioned like Zealot's Embrace. It almost doubles the potential of the skill in a pvp setting since you can do some really nice jukes/feints with the skill, pretending to kite/retreat while casting, then suddenly 180 and have the skill go off.

Focus 4 and torch 4 (flipover) could also stand to function like this.

Heavy Light baseline is all I wish for :)

@"BlueCar.1587" said:

• First of all the movement speed. With the last patch Anet/you gave 25% movement speed to DH IF the "wings of resolve" are NOT on cooldown, which is awful.Let me explain why. DH always used to be some sort of a roamer (with 1v1 potential) but still dependend on mobility. With "PoF" there came so much faster professions to the game that DH doesn´t have any chance to catch up with them if not using "rune of the lynx" which causes a heavy lack of dps/burst/sustain. If you give 25% movement speed included in a minor trait to DH (just as chronomancer has with "time marches on") it would be possible to change the rune depending on personal preferences or matchups. This in my opinion would be a pretty healthy development for the game, because it increases the build diversity again.

This is kind of an explanation but I think you miss the key point.The problem is not that it's tied to not using F2 but rather that you have to give up Piercing Light in order to take Soaring Devastation.

There's actually several other ways to fix the issue than rolling the +25% MS into a Minor trait. I'd like to suggest a re-shuffle that will also fix Dulled Senses.Keep Soaring Devastation as it is. Druids aren't complaining about Natural Stride so I don't see why this would be issue by itself.Break the Trap duration reduction away from Piercing Light and make it baseline.Bring the Cripple and Vulnerability from Dulled Senses and merge them into Piercing Light to trigger on traps instead of on KB.Make a new Dulled Senses. The Adept tier on DH is lacking a defensive trait like Bulwark and Hunter's Fortification.

This would give all 3 traits a clear purpose. Piercing Light for raiding and fractals because it would give you better Cripple uptime and better CC capability. Soaring Devastation for anyone that wants the MS increase, mainly PvP and WvW players but would also be great for Open World PvE. Then there would be Dulled Senses for defensive purposes. I could see something to make Symbolic DH viable again, something bunker-ish.

DH's still a noob stomper, and a good player can make the spec work surprisingly well.

The issues would be the difficulty of executing your burst combos compared to, say, Revenant and Mesmer; as well as the lack of passive sustain / tankiness from traits. To compensate (somewhat), the spec has a deceptive amount of utility, and many of the traits / skills can be used both offensively and defensively.

What this means in practice; you want to be rapid, you have to be the one on the offense, on the initiative. Whenever you get a chance to set up a big play without hassle, you shine.

I was happy when Anet shaved off some of the cast time from Symbol of Energy. We need more changes like that - offset the clunkiness of the class. But I don't think True Shot needs to be castable when moving. Make Wings of Resolve cure chill, cripple, and root; and make the liftoff un-interruptable. Spear of Justice has a massive aftercast that can be punished way too easily by faster specializations like Herald and Deadeye. Cut some of it off.

AlsoAt last I have a little wish which you dont HAVE TO take into account but it still would make me smiling if you did this change. Allow "spear of justice" being casted like "Zealot´s Embrace" (Hammer 3). This means make it possible to cast the spear with your back facing the opponment but then beeing able to suddely turn around and throw the spear

Agree with this.

I cant think of anything besides remove traps from guard to actually fix it :|

give wards and boost to DH playing inside wards and punish players on hit...

DH utilities are a bad design....

@Aeolus.3615 said:I cant think of anything besides remove traps from guard to actually fix it :|

give wards and boost to DH playing inside wards and punish players on hit...

DH utilities are a bad design....

DH utilities aren't bad, but they're all active in comparison to passive. Extra power put into skills on high cooldowns. Because your virtues carry so much of the power budjet, alongside traps and Deflecting Shot, you're practically forced into Renewed Focus as a result.

The trait lines involving virtues need a rework, and some of the benefits should be integrated into the skill itself, such as Shield of Courage's stun break and Wings of Resolve having 25% added MS while off cooldown. Instead, add passive effects that linger once they're on cooldown, for a few seconds or a weaker effect for the entirety of it.

I actually like some of the traps, especially Fragments of Faith and Test of Faith - they create a 'home field' advantage if played around accordingly, which is what dragonhunter is to me - setting things up. It's very rewarding bouncing an enemy between the ring of blades for 3 times in a row. Removing traps would just kill one unique part of their playstyle, and take away from skills like Deflecting Shot.

@Aeolus.3615 said:I cant think of anything besides remove traps from guard to actually fix it :|

give wards and boost to DH playing inside wards and punish players on hit...

DH utilities are a bad design....

This ship has left long time ago. The good thing Anet has been doing some changes moving away from traps. I find the biggest two issues with DH in sPvP currently:

1) Cannont generate retaliation. Since radiance and valor are a must, the third line is virtues (idealy), zeal or DH. Both virtues and zeal have reliable tools to generate retaliation. DH has none.

2) LB is useless. It slow, sluggish, does not deal much damage and very easy to counter play.

LB aside, what would really make DH viable is a reliable way to obtain retaliation that is not tied to traps. That change would make DH with GS/sword a solid build.

@otto.5684 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:I cant think of anything besides remove traps from guard to actually fix it :|

give wards and boost to DH playing inside wards and punish players on hit...

DH utilities are a bad design....

Agree with what you have said, but on that last point, have you tried DH with GS/sword, Valor/Virtues/DH? Marauder amulet gives you the crit, and while attacknig your tethered target, you match and even out-damage what you're capable of on core guard with the same burst, all whilst having much better mobility and sustain. Your overall burst is very slightly weaker due to not having the same power as a valk amulet, but it's really not that far behind + cripple typically allows you to land more of the burst + your dps when f1 is on cd far exceeds the dps of core guard that doesn't have retal up.

@Arcaedus.7290 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:I cant think of anything besides remove traps from guard to actually fix it :|

give wards and boost to DH playing inside wards and punish players on hit...

DH utilities are a bad design....

I have not after the recent update. My problem with DH is so much is reliant on SoJ. Your damage output without it will be laughable. I guess using scholar runes could help the damage output.

@Arcaedus.7290 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:I cant think of anything besides remove traps from guard to actually fix it :|

give wards and boost to DH playing inside wards and punish players on hit...

DH utilities are a bad design....

Do you have the build for that? I saw that on unranked. A plat lvl dh with gs,s/f destroy a 2v1 by him self. His dps must have been nuts cos one of em was a reaper.

@"TorQ.7041" said:Do you have the build for that? I saw that on unranked. A plat lvl dh with gs,s/f destroy a 2v1 by him self. His dps must have been nuts cos one of em was a reaper.

Most likely something like this.

There are various tweaks you can make based on personal preference, like shield instead of focus, medi heal over shelter, paladin amulet over marauder, or a different master trait (Bulwark instead of Zealot's Aggression). Like others have said, this build is very reliant on landing f1 to gain that +30% damage modifier, which isn't that hard, but even without it, a well-placed whirling wrath will net you 7kish damage against an opponent and between focus 5, shelter, f2 and f3 you have plenty of sustain to pad for time. IMO this build works better than core guard in most scenarios that aren't the ideal one and is a lot more survivable. It's main strength is countering really mobile +1ers like condi/power mirage and thief. You have excellent mobility, and cripple + immob help you land bursts. It doesn't do so well vs. things like holosmith and spellbreaker though but you can usually escape those encounters and can sometimes pull off a win if it's a pure 1v1 and you outplay them just a bit.

I'm sure there are also people out there running a variant with radiance over virtues for a much stronger burst which might look something like this here, although running a build that is essentially full melee on guardian without the valor/virtues is very risky.

@Arcaedus.7290 said:

@"TorQ.7041" said:Do you have the build for that? I saw that on unranked. A plat lvl dh with gs,s/f destroy a 2v1 by him self. His dps must have been nuts cos one of em was a reaper.

Awesome. Thanks bud. Gonna check it out. For utilities. Same as the core guard build? I was thinking maybe 1 of the Condi removals can be removed for a trap for that extra dps. Cos it feels like double melee on both weapon sets feels very all in. And one of your f buttons become a Condi cleanse anyway.

@TorQ.7041 said:

Awesome. Thanks bud. Gonna check it out. For utilities. Same as the core guard build? I was thinking maybe 1 of the Condi removals be removed for a trap for that extra dps. Cos it feels like double melee on both weapon sets feels very all in. And one of your f buttons become a Condi cleanse anyway.

Should work reasonably well. I recommend replacing smite condi with a trap though since I found CoP (or another stunbreaker stunbreaker utility) to be essential for survival. JI is rarely used to break stun and f3 has a long cooldown so a holosmith, soulbeast or warrior with shield could very easily end you after just two good CCs.

@otto.5684 said:

@"Aeolus.3615" said:I cant think of anything besides remove traps from guard to actually fix it :|

give wards and boost to DH playing inside wards and punish players on hit...

DH utilities are a bad design....

That's the issue, Anet wanted LB to be the support for trap surpise :\

It was a issue with concept of its design, balance towards its design and its functionality, Anet wanted a class to easilly burst targets with trap's so guardian could have easy access to gimmick burty "win rotations" due its inital easy access to damage like other class had, so the casuals could feel strong and tougth themselves as good players.

It still is a bad design and will ever be its a class initially made to carry its players, the bow could work much much better if they had any vision....The trap's are a big issue on the design of DH, they probably wont change since they killed the spirit weapon they will kill DH as well with traps if they touch, i never understood much Anet on producing skills to the game.. its a bit mindblowing, as far i have very little experience on game dev, its still mindblowing...

I still remain: :)

Dragon Hunter should hunt with the bow and the wards for support/pusnish targets inside. :} not trap spamming and expect to win rotations....

(lol i just remembered a bug where there was no trap limits with the DH trap, i mined the entire lord room of SMC, then kinda afk at keep and my game almost felt was crashing due the ammount of bags and hits/retaliation)

Longbow needs to change a bit for pvp. Lose the root on 2, 2 needs its damage back, heavy light baseline, and traps as a whole need retooling.