When your game mode is dominated by 2 professions...you know something is wrong

Dear Devs

If this below represent your vision for WvW...then do nothing

Since HoT these two specific professions have been causing a slow and steady players's decay in the game mode...is this what you call balance?

The vid starts with "90% of my fights in WvW end up like this: dead, dead, dead . . ." Are you sure you pickted the right vid? ;)In Zergs, Spellbreaker is a minority (even more after the WoD nerf), and in roaming, core-Warrior and Spellbreaker are used a lot by mediocre players (like me), because its easy to avoid getting one shotted by Deadeyes and Powershatter-Mirage, in the first place. But I don't think, that they are dominant in terms of impact or win rate.

For roaming, Scourge is imo the same.

If Anet wants to attract a broader range of people to WvW, they would need those "easy-to-learn" classes. But at least I agree with you, that the impact of scourge on zerg fights is too much atm.

@"Arheundel.6451" said:Dear Devs

If this below represent your vision for WvW...then do nothing

Since HoT these two specific professions have been causing a slow and steady players's decay in the game mode...is this what you call balance?

What's the issue? The people they're fighting are bad. No sustain, no CC, no damage = they get steamrolled.

People complain all day long about how you should be able to zergbust, how AoE damage should be punishing.

Then they complain about how the dps scourge dominates everything and can wipe larger groups.

Riiiiiiiight...

So scourge and firebrand? I did not watch the vid but everyone including Anet knows this right.

A single scourge can basically kill nothing. Especially not a group. The only real reason to carry many of the around is that you they bring boon corrupt, absorb and their fields are "hard to dodge" when there is too many of them around.If you take out scourges of the meta, you still have firebrand, chrono and rev that keep boons up 24/7. The damage would change to ele, hammer rev meta - which there already is hidden beneath the scourges.

Most times I die in zergs isn't by scourges but by hammer revs or ele fields while stunned because my stability stacks are gone in a second and I'm out of dodges.

they are important classes but come on now. There's a lot of important classes in this meta.

So a power Scourge and Firebrands. A Power Scourge which still uses Staff, not Scepter which is pretty OP with Devouring Darkness, against Mediocre Zergs?

You do need at least one Rev Per Party though and maybe some eles too, against a decent group.

@CrimsonNeonite.1048 said:So a power Scourge and Firebrands. A Power Scourge which still uses Staff, not Scepter, against Mediocre Zergs?You do need at least one Rev Per Party though and maybe some eles too, against a decent group.

you also need chronos, warriors and even some engi's.

The only classes without a place in the meta right now are thieves and rangers.

Balance is actually pretty decent right now imo.

Every time I see threads like this one I'm always a bit surprised.

I agree as far as there being issues with certain classes that makes them popular but the popularity itself is not an issue. I never understand why people argue that point. There have always been "meta" classes that bread-and-butter players have been guided towards and they have always taken up a majority of spots. That is not a PoF issue even if some of the PoF mechanics have issues.

In every thread where we have discussed Shades or WoD there is always someone bringing up Firebrand and while there are specific issues with balance you can point at with both Shades and WoD (that are or can be destructive for the game mode) it always seems that some people feel a need to bring up Firebrands for the meat-and-potatoes style that Guardians have always represented. As someone pointed out in some other thread: The norm used to be two Guardians per party, now it is one, so Firebrands are one of the few things that have had a positive impact on PoF meta. Firebrands may be popular but they don't really impact anything negatively or dominate anything more than popularity at following the tag or being the tag. We like tags.

It is rather mind boggling why people would complain about that. It is not that the other more support-oriented classes do poorly (possibly except for Rangers with the over-nerfs Druids recieved for PvE reasons where every class was streamlined to the same %dmg-effect figures) it's just that they represent a niche that require their players to do more than stick on tag. They have their niches yet those require some initiative. That most commanders wants fewer of them in a large squad is not a testament to them doing poorly in any way. They could easily just split Grace for PvE and PvP/WvW and roll it back to solve the issue with giving the Ranger some flavour on the support side and all support classes would have something attractive. They did in HoT.

I even see thieves quite on the regular at the moment, not only as roamers, but vault thieves are rather popular both in squads and as squad-havoc, not least for how they can affect Scourges.

Then I wouldn't perhaps go as far as Israel and say that the meta is decent but he certainly has a point that it is finally getting a little bit better with the worst aspects of the WoD-Shade pirateships slowly being shaved off. There are still enough mechanical balance issues affecting the current meta to make it somewhat poor but at the same time it is at the best of the past year by now.

@Israel.7056 said:The only classes without a place in the meta right now are thieves and rangers.

Balance is actually pretty decent right now imo.Fairly sure both are meta roaming and coincidentally, it's 2 of the classes dominating it.

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Israel.7056 said:The only classes without a place in the meta right now are thieves and rangers.

Balance is actually pretty decent right now imo.Fairly sure both are meta roaming and coincidentally, it's 2 of the classes dominating it.

Roaming is nothing more than ego stroking....useless in the current era with the atrocious balance , in the past maybe where people took duelling serious and ganking was deemed an immoral act, in the past people used to rely on dodges and clever manouvres to outwit the enemy..today is just facerolling between one invulnerability phase and another, stealth camping and other crap...nothing , I decided , was worth investing time into

@"subversiontwo.7501" said:Every time I see threads like this one I'm always a bit surprised.

I agree as far as there being issues with certain classes that makes them popular but the popularity itself is not an issue. I never understand why people argue that point. There have always been "meta" classes that bread-and-butter players have been guided towards and they have always taken up a majority of spots. That is not a PoF issue even if some of the PoF mechanics have issues.

In every thread where we have discussed Shades or WoD there is always someone bringing up Firebrand and while there are specific issues with balance you can point at with both Shades and WoD (that are or can be destructive for the game mode) it always seems that some people feel a need to bring up Firebrands for the meat-and-potatoes style that Guardians have always represented. As someone pointed out in some other thread: The norm used to be two Guardians per party, now it is one, so Firebrands are one of the few things that have had a positive impact on PoF meta. Firebrands may be popular but they don't really impact anything negatively or dominate anything more than popularity at following the tag or being the tag. We like tags.

It is rather mind boggling why people would complain about that. It is not that the other more support-oriented classes do poorly (possibly except for Rangers with the over-nerfs Druids recieved for PvE reasons where every class was streamlined to the same %dmg-effect figures) it's just that they represent a niche that require their players to do more than stick on tag. They have their niches yet those require some initiative. That most commanders wants fewer of them in a large squad is not a testament to them doing poorly in any way. They could easily just split Grace for PvE and PvP/WvW and roll it back to solve the issue with giving the Ranger some flavour on the support side and all support classes would have something attractive. They did in HoT.

I even see thieves quite on the regular at the moment, not only as roamers, but vault thieves are rather popular both in squads and as squad-havoc, not least for how they can affect Scourges.

Then I wouldn't perhaps go as far as Israel and say that the meta is decent but he certainly has a point that it is finally getting a little bit better with the worst aspects of the WoD-Shade pirateships slowly being shaved off. There are still enough mechanical balance issues affecting the current meta to make it somewhat poor but at the same time it is at the best of the past year by now.

Basically you're saying this meta is better than nothing but you're still wrong on the impact firebraband has on this meta :

-it heals-it clear condis-it applies stability-resistance-aoe toughness...basically 90% of all the boons in game and..yeah they're tanky as to bring down

They basically have everything ...no need for any type of support, which server would switch a fb for a druid even if unnerfed? Druid wasn't meta in wvw before the nerfs and certainly wouln't be meta now with FB and even if they revert the nerfs.

My complain is that necro and guardian basically do everything...how can anybody say the game is fine when necro and guardian cover 70% of any zerg?...This fact here is really mindblowing

@"geist.4126" said:A single scourge can basically kill nothing. Especially not a group. The only real reason to carry many of the around is that you they bring boon corrupt, absorb and their fields are "hard to dodge" when there is too many of them around.If you take out scourges of the meta, you still have firebrand, chrono and rev that keep boons up 24/7. The damage would change to ele, hammer rev meta - which there already is hidden beneath the scourges.

Most times I die in zergs isn't by scourges but by hammer revs or ele fields while stunned because my stability stacks are gone in a second and I'm out of dodges.

This is partially why I rarely play scourge anymore. Their play style that requires them to be effective, is easily negated by a group that understands this play style. One of the most brain dead things groups can do is get in tight ball and run forward and spam (which is what the OP's video is depicting). A couple weeks ago, a group of 8 of us massacred a group of 50-60 that couldn't understand anything other than run forward in a ball and spam (they were even carrying 2 dragon banners). With a help of a banner on our side, they were losing 20-30 every time they engaged. Their group was primarily necros and firebrands, but in order for their necros to be effective, they basically had to run forward and spam. When I play scourge, this is no different due to how slow they are, I must stick tight in the group to keep speed up and spam.

Now I primarily play Rev (Herald) with a hammer. Good boon support and speed (also nice they can keep their own speed up easily). The amount of sheer damage that CoR and Phase smash do makes the damage scourge outputs laughable. As you have said, the reason people should be bringing scourge is boon corrupt (especially if they spec into devouring darkness with the scepter). Damage wise, it doesn't matter how many boons the enemies have on them if CoR is repeatedly hitting them anywhere from 8k-20k per strike.

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Israel.7056 said:The only classes without a place in the meta right now are thieves and rangers.

Balance is actually pretty decent right now imo.Fairly sure both are meta roaming and coincidentally, it's 2 of the classes dominating it.

True but I just assumed we were talking about medium to large scale given the video.

@"Arheundel.6451" said:Basically you're saying this meta is better than nothing but you're still wrong on the impact firebraband has on this meta :

-it heals-it clear condis-it applies stability-resistance-aoe toughness...basically 90% of all the boons in game and..yeah they're tanky as to bring down

They basically have everything ...no need for any type of support, which server would switch a fb for a druid even if unnerfed? Druid wasn't meta in wvw before the nerfs and certainly wouln't be meta now with FB and even if they revert the nerfs.

My complain is that necro and guardian basically do everything...how can anybody say the game is fine when necro and guardian cover 70% of any zerg?...This fact here is really mindblowingMy friend, you're doing it again. You are confusing meta with balance. They have no direct relation. They have indirect relations.

It's like watching your favourite team and saying they lost the game because someone blew a penalty while the defense was underperforming the entire game. Sure, someone did blow a penalty, that is a fact yet it is not the reason the team lost.

So let's look at those arguments: It heals and clears condies but it is not the best at any of them. It provides alot of boons, important boons, but those four boons are not 90% of all the boons and positive effects in the game. All support classes tend to be tanky and hard to bring down. If you are looking for that very specific pakage that makes a Firebrand, why do you not play it? Personally, I can think of a number of parties where I would prefer to have another support class than a Firebrand. I am usually in such parties, even when in large squads.

They do not have everything, quite the opposite: they tend to do a set of specific things rather well. What they do have is a low skill floor and important abilities that have high application and easy coordination. The Scourge does not necessarily have the most burst of the common ranged classes. What makes Shades so popular but also (unlike Firebrands) an issue is that they tick far too many boxes of benefits and far too few boxes of drawbacks making far too little counterplay available. This is especially when combined with WoD, given their synergy and the results of their synergy when scaled up. It is boring having too few or too complicated options to counter it. It is the mechanics, not necessarily the numbers and certainly not the popularity that is the issue.

The very concept of "meta" is that not every class is in it. Meta is a selection. Things do not have to be in meta to be good or balanced.

Druids are a good example there since while they were not meta, they were certainly super-meta (most top guilds) and beginning to become guild meta (more guilds) which later affects pickup meta (even if they are not necessarily the same). At the present they are underbalanced but it is not their lack of popularity that makes it so either in terms of ranger choices or commander preferences.

For most of vanilla three-four classes were pickup meta while most classes were in guild meta and were represented somehow in the pickup meta and on the maps. For most of HoT it was the same with pickups and most decent-level guilds building around three-four classes. It is the same today, with a decent balance for the classes between the different experiences that WvW offers and options for all classes to at least fill some role within all the experiences. It is just that they do not fill the same roles (which makes things fun!) and you do not want the same amount of all these classes within all the different things you can do or organize for. It is also much of a non-issue as the way maps fill up very few squads get the perfect composition. Most commanders have to be happy with filling up half a squad the way they want to and then be as creative as possible with whatever classes are left overstacked. That is another reason for the meta but again it has to do with players not balance.

I suggest kicking wvw devs from groups if they are not meta classes words are not working only actions will.

Class balance has always been garbage in WvW.

Basically for most of the game it has roughly been half the classes have been either completely surplus to requirements (usually engy/ranger/thief) or have at best been niche like mes for first 3 years (chrono improved that somewhat) or engy healer now, whilst one or two classes have always been absolutely required and usually in vast disproportionate numbers (normally guard/necro). The difference between how needed classes are in WvW is laughable.

WvW literally has the worst class balance I have ever encountered in a game, I mean plenty of games have balance issues, but they at least change, what was weak one year is strong the next, in WvW you literally have classes that have been sub par the entire game and classes that have been broken OP the entire game.

Which is one of the reasons the game mode is in the moribund state it is.

Also, if you don't want to read paragraph after paragraph of musings on the topic.

Here is how you quickly solve your meta problems:

Option A:

1. Get 300 gold
2. Buy a tag
3. Start a squadThe game mode will benefit from your effort at large. Thanks buds.

Option B:

1. Get friends
2. Start a party or group, play as that group or as a group around an open tag
3. Optionally, create a guild for more depthThe game mode will benefit from your effort at large. Thanks buds.

Option C:

1. Play alone or find other likeminded players to play "alone" togetherThe game mode will benefit from your effort at large. Thanks buds.

Option D :

1. Do what most of the WvW playerbase has done - play a different game.

@subversiontwo.7501 said:

@"Arheundel.6451" said:Basically you're saying this meta is better than nothing but you're still wrong on the impact firebraband has on this meta :

-it heals-it clear condis-it applies stability-resistance-aoe toughness...basically 90% of all the boons in game and..yeah they're tanky as to bring down

They basically have everything ...no need for any type of support, which server would switch a fb for a druid even if unnerfed? Druid wasn't meta in wvw before the nerfs and certainly wouln't be meta now with FB and even if they revert the nerfs.

My complain is that necro and guardian basically do everything...how can anybody say the game is fine when necro and guardian cover 70% of any zerg?...This fact here is really mindblowingMy friend, you're doing it again. You are confusing meta with balance. They have no direct relation. They have indirect relations.

Balance dictate the meta , isn't that a direct relation?

Yes you're right in saying that something must not be necessarily meta to be good, but it's this specific meta that stop anything from working at all, no matter how I look at it there is no other comp that stand a serious chance against a buffed wall of scourges.The scourge was designed to be a bullet...fb it's the gun to fire it, you have a perfect weapon that can be countered only by another weapon, as you don't bring a knife to a gun fight ; FB is there to cover the very few weaknesses necro has by design.

Certainly they don't do everything in game but in the narrow scope of wvw yeah..they do :

-unblockable aoe coverage - check-perma stab - check-melee wall and range - check-anti sniping - check-anti melee - check

What's left to counter this wall?I don't have a problem with meta, I have a problem with class representation for zerg play because no matter how people put it but roaming is nothing more than waste of time, not only brings less benefits than zerg play, it's also extremely tedious and unrecognized . The same servers will look at roamers with disdain and as disposable pieces...not worth defending or even listen. In some instance you get openly abused in teamchat for bringing anything else but a necro- guard or rev, people in your own server tell you to leave the game and free space

@"subversiontwo.7501" said:Also, if you don't want to read paragraph after paragraph of musings on the topic.

Here is how you quickly solve your meta problems:

Option A:

1. Get 300 gold
2. Buy a tag
3. Start a squadThe game mode will benefit from your effort at large. Thanks buds.

Option B:

1. Get friends
2. Start a party or group, play as that group or as a group around an open tag
3. Optionally, create a guild for more depthThe game mode will benefit from your effort at large. Thanks buds.

Option C:

1. Play alone or find other likeminded players to play "alone" togetherThe game mode will benefit from your effort at large. Thanks buds.

Make a bubble and live in it that works so well....

@Jski.6180 said:Make a bubble and live in it that works so well....It has worked for me, why wouldn't it work for you?Also, if you guys are having issues with the squads on your servers have you ever considered that it might not be the class you play but rather how you play it or the attitudes you exhude? There is a huge difference between joining on a class and being on a class where you act in a way that shows your competence on it from how you build, position and act over coms or in squad chat (or what tag you flash).

@subversiontwo.7501 said:

@Jski.6180 said:Make a bubble and live in it that works so well....It has worked for me, why wouldn't it work for you?Also, if you guys are having issues with the squads on your servers have you ever considered that it might not be the class you play but rather how you play it or the attitudes you exhude? There is a huge difference between joining on a class and being on a class where you act in a way that shows your competence on it from how you build, position and act over coms or in squad chat (or what tag you flash).

The problem is most ppl who have there bubbles or groups had them before the meta of 2 classes. New comers cant get into groups with out having at least one of these 2 class even at the pug level. Its not good for wvw community to be like this and its only going to get a lot worst when you have the death of worlds. Balancing of the other classes is a must or things are going to go bad a lot faster with the current wvw planes. Anet seems not to even want to comment on the real problems of toxicfing communally due to there chose of balancing so words are not going to be enofe any more.

Unless its ok for wvw to no longer grow and only to slowly fad away.