Commanders after losing a fight — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Commanders after losing a fight

RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭
edited November 12, 2018 in WvW

Comments

  • GDchiaScrub.3241GDchiaScrub.3241 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Queue, but forgiven.

    D:

    RISE guild best guild super RPers trash blob guild [RISE] always dies on inc masters of the Die On Inc technique where Prince Jarvan just died.

    Holy Warriors of [Kazo] following Kazo doctrine guided by, Our Lord and Commander, Zudo in the holy Trinity of Him and his two firm glutes.

  • @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:
    Queue, but forgiven.

    D:

    Nah man, tag's clearly Mexican asking a question

  • And thats why i want to see all allied players on the map as green dots.

    Where the kitten is everybody?!?!???!!

  • Zero.3871Zero.3871 Member ✭✭✭

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    And thats why i want to see all allied players on the map as green dots.

    Where the kitten is everybody?!?!???!!

    I HAVE FOUND THEM!!!! on spawn… Clearing their bank.

  • @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    And thats why i want to see all allied players on the map as green dots.

    Where the kitten is everybody?!?!???!!

    Tags up havoc so that the blue commander and everyone else on the border can see where our roaming party is and not pointlessly attack the same objective from two directions

    Commander: "NEED ALL ON TAG kitten JOIN SQUAD OTHER TAG, TAG OFF OR LEAVE BORDER!!!"

    The QQ would be glorious!

  • enkidu.5937enkidu.5937 Member ✭✭
    edited November 22, 2018

    Not sure why people leave the squad after some losses (or not even join from the start), because they lost? Maybe, but there are only a couple of precious hours during prime time, were most of the big scale action takes place. So, why not try over again? You still can roam the other 22 hours.

    Because the commi is bad, made mistakes? Surely not, casuals are very forgiving, and most commis know what they do.

    I guess its because the commi's rant / bad mood / "let's train movement and big bombs then". Which is ok I guess, from time to time, but prime time is precious, and people want to play during that 2 hours, not school, when most of the WvW action, and big scale fights takes place. Pretty sure they are not even receptive at that time.

    PS: I prefer those commis, that just lead, don't comment, and make a resume or commented fight once every hour, and then continue to play without many comments.

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭
    edited November 24, 2018

    @grave of hearts.7830 said:
    [List]

    Some of the points you raise are well and good.

    Other points you raise sadly show the same disrespect you claim some commanders have but from a PPT perspective.

    Some commanders develop egos, at other times it may be out of frustration of trying to do something for others but not getting the support they need (either verbal or actual). Sometimes they care little for their scouts, other times they are committed to something the scouts do not see or understand. Sometimes commanders dodge competition, sometimes they simply just have to go and are under no obligation to stay tagged. Sometimes they are hopeless with planning, siege and captures and sometimes they are just not as well versed in it as those who spend most of their time with that and could do that themselves without the help of the tag.

    Sometimes they attempt to over-farm bags but to go as far as to say that what they enjoy is pointless shows a rather poor attitude on your end. Sometimes they handle resources poorly, but often times it is not their job to do so (not that it is anyone's job but you really don't need a tag to back-cap or stock camps and towers). There are too many players who attempt to scout or play the defensive game (something I can appreciate) that are just too unorganized to achieve anything on their own. A small group can be extremely effective in defense or havoc-capture if they are good enough at it. Those groups may talk to commanders in mapchat but they do not rely on them enough to complain about them.

    Sometimes commanders make poor estimation of their chances to win, other times they just attempt to create content in uneven scenarios because, newsflash, it's content and there is no option. They don't care enough about winning PPT to sacrifice all other gameplay for it. Sometimes you have to provide bags to some people, some fun whether it's your guys or their guys. Most commanders appreciate other commanders who try to fight uphill battles and go about it best-as. That shows respect for the mode and its players. Content is created between the players not just by one side attempting to win.

    Sometimes they ignore well-thought and well-delivered suggestions but most of the times it is just someone who wants to armchair their content and is unable to manage their own content. The tag is there for himself and with the tag up for his friends, if the tag is blue it may be there for players in general but the tag is never there for you or to cater to your personal needs.

    We see this quite frequently, how eg., roamers (in contrast to the big bad blob) are mentioned on the forums - but players or player-groups who are actually good at roaming, havoc-capture or havocing around commanders - they generally do not complain about commanders. They manage their own fun.

  • @grave of hearts.7830 said:

    @enkidu.5937 said:

    1:Bigger ego than capabilities,verbal abusing everyone.
    2:Ignoring scout calls for reinforcements,and ignoring information about enemy Zerg location.
    3:Bullet dodgeing,aka when they tag down whenever opposition shows up which is basically cowardice and letting everything to burn.
    That alone droves a commanders popularity down fast.
    4:Non existent map awareness,leading into delivering bags to enemy.
    5:Pointless SM headbutting,wasting everyone's time while also delivering bags to enemy.
    6:shameless promotions,tagging for 30 mins to backcap paper and spamming guild recruitment for 2 hours past that.
    7:bad logistics,draining all objectives from supply without going to backcap the camps.
    8:inability to preplan presiege and be at an objective before the enemy arrives to it.
    9:inability to calculate the odds of winning on open field and in close quarters against an organised boonspam+scourge guild Zerg with just pugs.
    1 time you can ignore it,but the 3rd time you just dump the com.
    10:not taking criticism and advice,and not improving.
    11:taking credit for other people work.

    Sounds a lot like Piken commanders and mostly the reason i stopped playing like 6 weeks or so ago.

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 24, 2018

    In my experience commanding and following other commanders, the majority of wipes happen because of

    A -Squirreling
    B -180 Retreating
    C -Bad positioning

    When commanders ignore their tail, especially while wandering in enemy territory while under siege, they won’t have enough numbers when engaging the enemy zerg(bad positioning) if you decide to squirrel around in said territory, and not engage and push the other zergs back line, then you’ll get picked off 1 by 1. If you squirrel about and then the enemy decides to push and THEN you 180 retreat, that’s how you wipe.

    This is the reason commanders lose fights most of the time. Sometimes what I see is the Zerg itself not understanding or following a commander who may actually be trying to push or gain a better position, but the Zerg won’t listen, and eventually the Zerg dies because of those three things mentioned above.

    When commanders say “get on tag” you should get on tag...because in most situations when you aren’t pushing on the tag you are just detrimental to the Zerg. If you notice a tag that pushes head on into another Zerg, it’s a sign of a bad commander. Good commanders will always push into the back line by circling around (forcing the enemy Zerg to move so that the tail is more obvious) and push straight into the tail, which usually forces an enemy retreat (which is when they wipe)

    If you notice in guild v guild Zerg battles it’s about 20 minutes of Zerg dance-off to try and get a good position and opportunity to reach into the tail. A good gvg Zerg will move so tightly that no tail will ever be present...which is why they are so deadly.

  • Rayya.2591Rayya.2591 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 25, 2018

    Actually a good portion of it is that the commander is an idiot.
    It is the reason scout numbers declined over time.
    The fundamental flaws in a commander behavior:

    1:Bigger ego than capabilities,verbal abusing everyone.
    2:Ignoring scout calls for reinforcements,and ignoring information about enemy Zerg location.
    3:Bullet dodgeing,aka when they tag down whenever opposition shows up which is basically cowardice and letting everything to burn.
    That alone droves a commanders popularity down fast.
    4:Non existent map awareness,leading into delivering bags to enemy.
    5:Pointless SM headbutting,wasting everyone's time while also delivering bags to enemy.
    6:shameless promotions,tagging for 30 mins to backcap paper and spamming guild recruitment for 2 hours past that.
    7:bad logistics,draining all objectives from supply without going to backcap the camps.
    8:inability to preplan presiege and be at an objective before the enemy arrives to it.
    9:inability to calculate the odds of winning on open field and in close quarters against an organised boonspam+scourge guild Zerg with just pugs.
    1 time you can ignore it,but the 3rd time you just dump the com.
    10:not taking criticism and advice,and not improving.
    11:taking credit for other people work.

    And list goes on,bottom line there is no rule that says people are obligated to follow a commander.
    And small groups/solo roamers usually provide more contribution.

    it is funny how many players try to blame commander for everything, yet take credits when things went well.
    So public commanders have to deal with

    • players that refuse to join squad
    • players that refuse to join voice channels
    • players that try to give advices on how they belive battle should go on , yet they don;t want to lead themself
    • random squad composition , because is not an RTS game where you pick your units before fight, you deal with what you got
    • pin snipe - not always
    • players that shout like cows that they lost a camp in a middle of the fights
    • cry babies that cry the commander drained keep supply after they escorted the dolyak
    • classic scout reports like "inc" "help" / ping objective on map and say contested 15 seconds latter
    • ranged players that blame commander that they got rekt by enemy melee , 2000 range away from their tag
    • melee that won't move with tag
      Yet you see topics on forums like " what happened with commanders" why they don;t tag. To lead a group takes extra effort that is not currently rewarded.
      Don't get me wrong but it often happened while i was active to message enemy commanders for months to ask for fights, and the most usual answer is :" i cba to fight organized blobs with pugs" can't rely on those pugs / can't get more than 40 on voice, with queue on map. Fact is , most of the commanders i know rely on their guilds and friends if they want to get something done, the randoms that are on map are mostly" extra".
  • cobbah.3102cobbah.3102 Member ✭✭✭

    Hmm do not forget streaming commanders , that is like here we are come get us nyah nyah . Commanding is an awareness of what followers want mix it up ,bit of this bit of that not head banging SMC endlessly.

  • enkidu.5937enkidu.5937 Member ✭✭
    edited November 25, 2018

    @Rayya.2591 said:
    To lead a group takes extra effort that is not currently rewarded.
    Don't get me wrong but it often happened while i was active to message enemy commanders for months to ask for fights, and the most usual answer is :" i cba to fight organized blobs with pugs" can't rely on those pugs / can't get more than 40 on voice, with queue on map. Fact is , most of the commanders i know rely on their guilds and friends if they want to get something done, the randoms that are on map are mostly" extra".

    Mostly agree with your other points, but this part . . . What "rewards" does a commander expect? A public zerg with 100% Meta-builds, TS, and good movement? The enemy commander also has to deal with casuals, newbies, rally bots etc., so blaming those players for the loss is often just a lazy excuse imo.

    I understand that commanders mainly get their fun out of coordinated teamplay. For many, the win rate even comes secondary. But "the team" is not just the commander and his/her 50 zerglings, its also the 100 ppl that are active on the maps. During off-tag roaming activities, that soulbeast in your squad already contributed a lot directly to the commander's and the zerg's performance / game experience / fun / QoL:

    • providing supps: the commander can just port into that T3 keep, grab 300 supps, and immediately continue doing stuff that's fun
    • providing intelligence data: spotting enemy zergs and hinder enemy scouts to outspot our zerg
    • keeping enemy keeps at T0-1, so the commander can walk in and have some fun there
    • providing bloodlust

    The trade-off: such roamers need some big-scale fun, as well. Just pay them off with a lead from time to time, even if they can't handle a meta build with key binds, refuse to TS, and maybe will never become a good zergling at all.

    There are also newbies, that may contribute in the future. And there are bad players, that only contribute by numbers.

  • gimo.3281gimo.3281 Member ✭✭
    edited November 27, 2018

    you charge with 3 people and the rest of your map queue zerg is 6 inches behind you.

  • People who complains about commanders should tag up and lead themselves if they think they could do better

    Power > Condition

  • @ThunderPanda.1872 said:
    People who complains about commanders should tag up and lead themselves if they think they could do better

    I do, and I'm just as guilty of the meme. Which is why I made it

    It's a game man, chill lol

  • @Rayya.2591 said:

    Actually a good portion of it is that the commander is an idiot.
    It is the reason scout numbers declined over time.
    The fundamental flaws in a commander behavior:

    1:Bigger ego than capabilities,verbal abusing everyone.
    2:Ignoring scout calls for reinforcements,and ignoring information about enemy Zerg location.
    3:Bullet dodgeing,aka when they tag down whenever opposition shows up which is basically cowardice and letting everything to burn.
    That alone droves a commanders popularity down fast.
    4:Non existent map awareness,leading into delivering bags to enemy.
    5:Pointless SM headbutting,wasting everyone's time while also delivering bags to enemy.
    6:shameless promotions,tagging for 30 mins to backcap paper and spamming guild recruitment for 2 hours past that.
    7:bad logistics,draining all objectives from supply without going to backcap the camps.
    8:inability to preplan presiege and be at an objective before the enemy arrives to it.
    9:inability to calculate the odds of winning on open field and in close quarters against an organised boonspam+scourge guild Zerg with just pugs.
    1 time you can ignore it,but the 3rd time you just dump the com.
    10:not taking criticism and advice,and not improving.
    11:taking credit for other people work.

    And list goes on,bottom line there is no rule that says people are obligated to follow a commander.
    And small groups/solo roamers usually provide more contribution.

    it is funny how many players try to blame commander for everything, yet take credits when things went well.
    So public commanders have to deal with

    • players that refuse to join squad
    • players that refuse to join voice channels
    • players that try to give advices on how they belive battle should go on , yet they don;t want to lead themself
    • random squad composition , because is not an RTS game where you pick your units before fight, you deal with what you got
    • pin snipe - not always
    • players that shout like cows that they lost a camp in a middle of the fights
    • cry babies that cry the commander drained keep supply after they escorted the dolyak
    • classic scout reports like "inc" "help" / ping objective on map and say contested 15 seconds latter
    • ranged players that blame commander that they got rekt by enemy melee , 2000 range away from their tag
    • melee that won't move with tag
      Yet you see topics on forums like " what happened with commanders" why they don;t tag. To lead a group takes extra effort that is not currently rewarded.
      Don't get me wrong but it often happened while i was active to message enemy commanders for months to ask for fights, and the most usual answer is :" i cba to fight organized blobs with pugs" can't rely on those pugs / can't get more than 40 on voice, with queue on map. Fact is , most of the commanders i know rely on their guilds and friends if they want to get something done, the randoms that are on map are mostly" extra".

    I am just pointing the obvious reasons why a commander popularity declines ,and as much you try to blanket excuse commanders I never made a blanket statement over all commanders.
    And your list is practically a mirror copy of a bad commander consequences list springled with a blame the players mentality.

  • Rayya.2591Rayya.2591 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 29, 2018

    @grave of hearts.7830 said:

    I am just pointing the obvious reasons why a commander popularity declines ,and as much you try to blanket excuse commanders I never made a blanket statement over all commanders.
    And your list is practically a mirror copy of a bad commander consequences list springled with a blame the players mentality.

    no you actualy only express your own oppinion, wich some may disagree with. While in the past 6 years of the game majority understood that a commander can be good or bad (depending on the quality of his followers) it actualy surpirse me that there are still players that belive the commander is the deciding factor.
    the only time that commander can be the deciding factor, is when player quality is close to even on both sides, wich is rare
    However in the past 6 years of the game i've seen plently of examples of good commanders losing fights against blobs without commander. Yet the losers could blame their commander right?

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 29, 2018

    @enkidu.5937 said:
    Not sure why people leave the squad after some losses (or not even join from the start), because they lost? Maybe, but there are only a couple of precious hours during prime time, were most of the big scale action takes place. So, why not try over again? You still can roam the other 22 hours.

    Because the commi is bad, made mistakes? Surely not, casuals are very forgiving, and most commis know what they do.

    I guess its because the commi's rant / bad mood / "let's train movement and big bombs then". Which is ok I guess, from time to time, but prime time is precious, and people want to play during that 2 hours, not school, when most of the WvW action, and big scale fights takes place. Pretty sure they are not even receptive at that time.

    PS: I prefer those commis, that just lead, don't comment, and make a resume or commented fight once every hour, and then continue to play without many comments.

    It's a difficult balance to achieve. You need to let people know they're screwing up, because doing it again will just ruin things. But you also can't dwell on it and this is what people do.

    And of course people shouldn't act like they own the squad either, since they're nothing without the followers anyways.

    @ThunderPanda.1872 said:
    People who complains about commanders should tag up and lead themselves if they think they could do better

    I've noticed a lot of that backseat commanding comes from people that are too afraid to do it themselves, since they know they'll probably fail at it anyways. Opposite side of the coin; it seems like the presence of a tag seems to threaten their ego.

    If they were any good, they wouldn't need a icon telling them what to do anyways.

  • i know a commander who is so very cryptic in his desicions/movements and make his followers go "????".

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @luzonophir.7134 said:
    i know a commander who is so very cryptic in his desicions/movements and make his followers go "????".

    Well scouts do the same so it's really universal. I always go into WvW expecting reports like "5 enemies on west gate bay" followed by orange swords on lord 3 seconds later.

  • Junkpile.7439Junkpile.7439 Member ✭✭✭

    This game need npc commanders. Those would probably be much smarter than player commanders. :D

    Low quality trolling since launch
    Seafarer's Rest EotM Hero

  • LetoII.3782LetoII.3782 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2, 2018

    @Junkpile.7439 said:
    This game need npc commanders.

    You're going to hurt Siegerazer's feelings if you're not careful

    [HUNT] the predatory instinct

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2, 2018

    @LetoII.3782 said:

    @Junkpile.7439 said:
    This game need npc commanders.

    You're going to hurt Siegerazer's feelings if you're not careful

    Yeah it had NPC commanders until Anet decided "kitten it we cant be kitten to make them work again, lets promote spawncamping instead and make the weak servers a little weaker"

  • luzonophir.7134luzonophir.7134 Member ✭✭
    edited December 4, 2018

    @Junkpile.7439 said:
    This game need npc commanders. Those would probably be much smarter than player commanders. :D

    i've seen kraits dodging my rifle warrior's kill shot, centaurs in kessex hills evading my whirling axe and kitten mordrems in dragon stand fight like 1 level up to pro pvpers.

  • gebrechen.5643gebrechen.5643 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zero.3871 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    And thats why i want to see all allied players on the map as green dots.

    Where the kitten is everybody?!?!???!!

    I HAVE FOUND THEM!!!! on spawn… Clearing their bank.

    Nah, that's what I thought after seeing that 60 EBG queue last week. There were 5-10 people standing around at spawn and EB keep combined and the pin had 31 in his squad + 4. That still leaves a lot of numbers for roamers. Wonder where or what they roam.
    I support the "like to see all allied players as dots on the map - thingie"

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @gebrechen.5643 said:

    @Zero.3871 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    And thats why i want to see all allied players on the map as green dots.

    Where the kitten is everybody?!?!???!!

    I HAVE FOUND THEM!!!! on spawn… Clearing their bank.

    Nah, that's what I thought after seeing that 60 EBG queue last week. There were 5-10 people standing around at spawn and EB keep combined and the pin had 31 in his squad + 4. That still leaves a lot of numbers for roamers. Wonder where or what they roam.
    I support the "like to see all allied players as dots on the map - thingie"

    I guess I would ask what the real benefit of that would be?

    I can honestly say enough commanders don’t like just anyone following them, and those that DO want them following them might just turn it into a toxic mess.

  • Blackarps.1974Blackarps.1974 Member ✭✭✭

    The best ones are the ones that have 50/50 squads, lose 10 people on engage then are already back in their keeps from running while their slow players are still getting eaten alive.

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 6, 2018

    Commanding isn't hard these days since you do not have call for blast. The only difficult part of commanding now is getting people to join you on coms. If you got tons of people on coms, you can easily roll people down, if you only got handful, not much different from pug zerg without com.

    Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
    Henge of Denravi Server
    www.gw2time.com

    --

    Explanations of WvW Structures & Populations Issues

  • zionophir.6845zionophir.6845 Member ✭✭
    edited December 7, 2018

    you don't even need comms to command coz i've seen a pug commander who doesn't even (spam) type his commands with mixed population of milita pwned Cloudfly's JQ strong group before.

    and that commander only had 6 people in his squad. the rest, of course, are not in the squad.

  • Trajan.4953Trajan.4953 Member ✭✭✭

    @zionophir.6845 said:
    you don't even need comms to command coz i've seen a pug commander who doesn't even (spam) type his commands with mixed population of milita pwned Cloudfly's JQ strong group before.

    and that commander only had 6 people in his squad. the rest, of course, are not in the squad.

    Random pugs vs. Random pugs are not really a good metric for a decent fight.

  • zionophir.6845zionophir.6845 Member ✭✭
    edited December 8, 2018

    @Trajan.4953 said:

    @zionophir.6845 said:
    you don't even need comms to command coz i've seen a pug commander who doesn't even (spam) type his commands with mixed population of milita pwned Cloudfly's JQ strong group before.

    and that commander only had 6 people in his squad. the rest, of course, are not in the squad.

    Random pugs vs. Random pugs are not really a good metric for a decent fight.

    it was random pugs vs Cloudfly's guild and some JQ pugs.

    You should've seen it. was EPIC.

    well it was classified = For Our Eyes Only anyway so yeah.

    Note: "Hidden Tactics"

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