Endurance, Mirages and Deadeyes - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Endurance, Mirages and Deadeyes

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  • Klypto.1703Klypto.1703 Member ✭✭✭

    @spectrito.8513 said:

    @Klypto.1703 said:

    What is worse is that anet is listening to these bad players who depend on tags, zergs, necro traits/broken condi's and then complain if someone counter plays them

    Strictly roaming player here.
    It doesnt mean much but i'm a plat player, i'm not the best but i'm not bad.
    There's no problem with being counterplayed
    The problem is to be counterplayed with an uncounterplayble mechanic. In most cases you can't do kitten about stealth

    @Klypto.1703 said:
    So anet just destroys the stealth aspect that is core parts of mesmer and thief but more so thief and pretty much the entire spec of deadeye. Which what I don't get is you come out with deadeye then completely redo the whole spec just to kill it with this nerf.

    I dont agree with the new marked mechanic, it will turn some not-that-good skills into useless skills on certain situations, it's a lazy solution

    I think nerfing endurance boosts is a better solution cuz it dont mess with core classes and it can stop this currently dodge spamfest of invulnerabilitys and permastealth.

    LOL Thief of every ability they have none of them create an invuln which is false and you can press dodge all you want for stealth it doesn't perma stealth the thief. A thief has to use an alternate method even with the food to maintain it so they are using their initiative and endurance. So once you catch up to your target you have to wait for it to come back to high enough level to time the attack right. So what this change has done is just let a player run to a sentry/watchtower or drop a trap to completely counter a spec like deadeye that mostly uses stealth for the little sustain it has. As before you could counterplay a deadeye but now the non-deadeyes actually have that trap to use or again the sentry/watchtower to counter without worry of being counterplayed just by throwing down one item. Its pretty much the cries from the players who relied on necro carrying them so they have a new crutch to stand on. Hopefully if anet cares about players who actually play deadeye or stealth in wvw they will reverse this or have some kind of balance to this since I'm just going to go elsewhere to play where I've invested time into I just know personally anet won't be getting any more support from me.

  • @Klypto.1703 said:

    LOL Thief of every ability they have none of them create an invuln which is false and you can press dodge all you want for stealth it doesn't perma stealth the thief. A thief has to use an alternate method even with the food to maintain it so they are using their initiative and endurance. So once you catch up to your target you have to wait for it to come back to high enough level to time the attack right. So what this change has done is just let a player run to a sentry/watchtower or drop a trap to completely counter a spec like deadeye that mostly uses stealth for the little sustain it has. As before you could counterplay a deadeye but now the non-deadeyes actually have that trap to use or again the sentry/watchtower to counter without worry of being counterplayed just by throwing down one item. Its pretty much the cries from the players who relied on necro carrying them so they have a new crutch to stand on. Hopefully if anet cares about players who actually play deadeye or stealth in wvw they will reverse this or have some kind of balance to this since I'm just going to go elsewhere to play where I've invested time into I just know personally anet won't be getting any more support from me.

    This threat is not only about Thieves.

    When i made this post i didnt knew this was coming.
    As i said before, i dont like this change, it just kills other builds/skills.

    The problem was the stealth uptime from Deadeyes inside structures (permastealth)

    So Anet instead of limiting the amount of Stealth Deadeyes have
    They screwed every other stealth user, which was not the problem.
    Now Deadeyes and Mirages are still untouchable due to how much endurance they can get from boosts
    And all stealth users will be affected by this.

    It's just a new problem.

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Speaking of which, since we have marked traps now they could probably undo the reveal on thief traps since it would be redundant and it would not pose a problem now.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 16, 2018

    @spectrito.8513 said:
    And all stealth users will be affected by this.

    Not really, only those that use so much stealth that their mediocre build becomes unviable without it. On my mesmer I wouldnt even use the torch if Anet hadnt nerfed the offhand sword, because no one ever used torch of course...

    The endurance claim remain ridiculous. All other classes has builds that easily rivals the mesmer and thief in terms of OP mechanics.

  • @Dawdler.8521 said:

    Not really, only those that use so much stealth that their mediocre build becomes unviable without it.

    It will affect any skill with more then 2 sec stealth.
    Marked: This effect has been updated and will now reveal enemies for 5 seconds if they remain in stealth for 2 seconds or more. This effect is referred to as Detected!

    On my mesmer I wouldnt even use the torch if Anet hadnt nerfed the offhand sword, because no one ever used torch of course...
    The endurance claim remain ridiculous. All other classes has builds that easily rivals the mesmer and thief in terms of OP mechanics.

    Yes, classes have OP mechanics, but only Mirage and Deadeyes can abuse from boosts that much to make it to another level.
    Mirage and Deadeyes are too safe, low risk high reward.
    It's like playing god mode, no one can kill you.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 17, 2018

    @spectrito.8513 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    Not really, only those that use so much stealth that their mediocre build becomes unviable without it.

    It will affect any skill with more then 2 sec stealth.
    Marked: This effect has been updated and will now reveal enemies for 5 seconds if they remain in stealth for 2 seconds or more. This effect is referred to as Detected!

    On my mesmer I wouldnt even use the torch if Anet hadnt nerfed the offhand sword, because no one ever used torch of course...
    The endurance claim remain ridiculous. All other classes has builds that easily rivals the mesmer and thief in terms of OP mechanics.

    Yes, classes have OP mechanics, but only Mirage and Deadeyes can abuse from boosts that much to make it to another level.
    Mirage and Deadeyes are too safe, low risk high reward.
    It's like playing god mode, no one can kill you.

    Yeah but the 2s duration is far too short and will cut most stealth abilities off forcing you to be revealed. Remember thief and mesmer are balanced around stealth being their active defence. If this change was meant to curtail deadeyes staying stealthed in towers they would increase this to 10s so it doesn't interfere with normal use of stealth as a disengage or positioning tool and shadow meld would run out after 30s.

    It also doesn't really help against towers unless upgraded and it was breached, very niche. The change was just a flat nerf to stealth and most notably mesmer, thief and scrapper.

    I stand with Mo.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:
    It also doesn't really help against towers unless upgraded and it was breached, very niche. The change was just a flat nerf to stealth and most notably mesmer, thief and scrapper.

    I do find it amusing you didnt mention druid as they got access to more stealth than the scrapper and mesmer combined.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    It also doesn't really help against towers unless upgraded and it was breached, very niche. The change was just a flat nerf to stealth and most notably mesmer, thief and scrapper.

    I do find it amusing you didnt mention druid as they got access to more stealth than the scrapper and mesmer combined.

    I didn't because I barely see them but thanks for bringing them up.

    I stand with Mo.

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 18, 2018

    Ranger:
    Already have +25% endurance regen in Wilderness Survival + Companion's Defense + Rugged Growth.
    With food it means +65% endurance, one dodge every 6sec, each dodge gives 2s protection and 520 heals.

    Holosmith :
    You have Adrenal implant in tool spec : +50% endurance regen. Or you can take kinteic battery ( which works way too strong with Photon Forge and major traits, but ok) and the food +40% endurance + perma vigor.
    Thermal release Wave is 2k dmg easily + burning + -15% heat + Edit* HEAL.

    Warrior :
    Reckless Dodge + MMR, each dodge do dmg + gives power that heals to 133 and give 2%endurance.
    With food it means you earn 2 mights and heal to 266, 4% endurance every dodge.
    Okai MMR got nerfed, but now with mending update, with runes and sigils which give 5 mights it's quite viable ; with food, the more you have endurance > the more you have mights and endurance, it's exponentially insane.

    Deadeye/daredevil :
    Need to explain ? Daredevil : Spamming Bounding Dodger + staff #5 + Escapist Absolution + Driven Fortitude + Endless Stamina + food + (perma) vigor + sigil and all the endurance gain from skills and staff, you have a dodge every <4sec (Try it, I don't lie)
    Actually Darevil in WvW is really stupidly strong ( not only in raid): staff (#5) + acrobatics + Trickery + food + Rune of the Daredevil, (why not sigil of intelligence), you can be 80% of the time evading atttacks, it's just insane.
    Deadeye : more stealth, more stealth attacks ...

    Mirage :
    Same as thief. With vigor, food and sigil, mirage cloak is >20%invulnerability uptime, more ambushs, more daze, more mirror, more infinite horizon, more dune cloak, etc etc.

    Vigor is fair, vigor is a boon, you have to manage to get it, to get more duration, the enemy can remove/corrupt it. But Gameplay mechanics on Endurance ???? But food ??????? Food shoud not be the lifeblood of a build.
    Sigil of Energy ... hmmmmmmmm it could be 25% like in PvP.

    Edit: there is weaver/elem too with arcane Grandmaster trait, but I won't talk about it because elem is already dying since years and I don't want Balance team to nerf it to the underground.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    Ranger:
    Already have +25% endurance regen in Wilderness Survival + Companion's Defense + Rugged Growth.
    With food it means +65% endurance, one dodge every 6sec, each dodge gives 2s protection and 520 heals.

    Holosmith :
    You have Adrenal implant in tool spec : +50% endurance regen. Or you can take kinteic battery ( which works way too strong with Photon Forge and major traits, but ok) and the food +40% endurance + perma vigor.
    Thermal release Wave is 2k dmg easily + burning + -15% heat.

    Warrior :
    Reckless Dodge + MMR, each dodge do dmg + gives power that heals to 133 and give 2%endurance.
    With food it means you earn 2 mights and heal to 266, 4% endurance every 6sec.
    Okai MMR got nerfed, but now with mending update, with runes and sigils which give 5 mights it's quite viable ; with food it's exponentially insane.

    Deadeye/daredevil :
    Need to explain ? Daredevil : Spamming Bounding Dodger + staff #5 + Escapist Absolution + Driven Fortitude + Endless Stamina + food + (perma) vigor + sigil and all the endurance gain from skills and staff, you have a dodge every <4sec (Try it, I don't lie)
    Actually Darevil is really stupidly strong ( not only in raid): staff (#5) + acrobatics + Trickery + food + Rune of the Daredevil, (why not sigil of intelligence), you can be 80% of the time evading atttacks, it's just insane.
    Deadeye : more stealth, more stealth attacks ...

    Mirage :
    Same as thief. With vigor, food and sigil, mirage cloak is >20%invulnerability uptime, more ambushs, more daze, more mirror, more infinite horizon, more dune cloak, etc etc.

    Vigor is fair, vigor is a boon, you have to manage to get it, to get more duration, the enemy can remove/corrupt it. But Gameplay mechanics on Endurance ???? But food ??????? Food shoud not be the lifeblood of a build.
    Sigil of Energy ... hmmmmmmmm it could be 25% like in PvP.

    Edit: there is weaver/elem too with arcane Grandmaster trait, but I won't talk about it because elem is already dying since years and I don't want Balance team to nerf it to the underground.

    You also forgot that Vent Exhaust activates heat therapy healing the facerollosmith.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vent_Exhaust
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Heat_Therapy

    You also forgot a few rev traits for removing a condition, gaining retal and the guardian 1k heal on dodge which is a backbone of WvW.

    You also didn't count the VAST amount of skills that give you something for evading an attack.

    I stand with Mo.

  • Ah yeah, but I tried to focus on popular/strong builds that grant too much synergy between differents traits and skills, because of endurance and so the food. And because I don't play all classes too.

  • Why not just change energy sigil to grant vigor on weapon swap, and cancel mirages ability to use skills while evading?

    No other class can cast or use skills while invuln, why is mirage immune to this?

  • Jeknar.6184Jeknar.6184 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I don't think Elusive Mind is a issue in the current state... Most mesmer I see are running Infinite Horizon anyway... My only beef is with Silent Scope and Deadeye.

    I understand that they wanted to give easier stealth access while holding a rifle so a DE could make use of their Signature Skill (Death's Judgement) more often, but Silent Scope is a ridiculous design. Imo, they should make Silent Scope actually give some other kind of defense to the Deadeye and move Death's Judgement to some other button that don't require you to be stealthed to make use of it (Give back Cursed Bullet!). The specialization mechanic is actually the Kneel. Don't force it to be humping stealth.

    Ferguson's Crossing Mithril Recruit (Rank 4664) - PvP Phoenix (Rank 72) - 30k Achievment Points
    Calamis Fatima / Kawagima / Hanna Flintlocke / Sabetha Deadeye

  • Jeknar.6184Jeknar.6184 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @C Cspace Cowboy.5903 said:
    Why not just change energy sigil to grant vigor on weapon swap, and cancel mirages ability to use skills while evading?

    No other class can cast or use skills while invuln, why is mirage immune to this?

    Depends on what you define as Invulnerability... Conditions still tick through Mirage Cloak, so you can problably compare it to Endure Pain or Signet of Stone which also allow their respective professions to continue fighting while being immune to direct damage.

    Ferguson's Crossing Mithril Recruit (Rank 4664) - PvP Phoenix (Rank 72) - 30k Achievment Points
    Calamis Fatima / Kawagima / Hanna Flintlocke / Sabetha Deadeye

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jeknar.6184 said:
    I don't think Elusive Mind is a issue in the current state... Most mesmer I see are running Infinite Horizon anyway... My only beef is with Silent Scope and Deadeye.

    I understand that they wanted to give easier stealth access while holding a rifle so a DE could make use of their Signature Skill (Death's Judgement) more often, but Silent Scope is a ridiculous design. Imo, they should make Silent Scope actually give some other kind of defense to the Deadeye and move Death's Judgement to some other button that don't require you to be stealthed to make use of it (Give back Cursed Bullet!). The specialization mechanic is actually the Kneel. Don't force it to be humping stealth.

    kneel is a rifle mechanic not a specialization mechanic. the specialization mechanic is mark/malice wich improves all stealth attacks. so deadeye will allways have decent stealth access, especially on their exclusive weapon. unless we get another rework to the specialization mechanic wich i think is unlikely that it will get 2 reworks while other specs in need do not even get one.

    read this, become a better player now.

  • Nerf sigil of Energy, delete endurance food. Problem solved.
    The food (and endurance in general) shoud not be the lifeblood of a build, it should help a bit beginners, not sustain completly broken builds.

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 30, 2018

    @Jeknar.6184 said:

    @C Cspace Cowboy.5903 said:
    Why not just change energy sigil to grant vigor on weapon swap, and cancel mirages ability to use skills while evading?

    No other class can cast or use skills while invuln, why is mirage immune to this?

    Depends on what you define as Invulnerability... Conditions still tick through Mirage Cloak, so you can problably compare it to Endure Pain or Signet of Stone which also allow their respective professions to continue fighting while being immune to direct damage.

    They last long but they don't have charge, they have CD, you just need to temporize a bit then you know you're free to DPS him; Mirage cloak you spam it whenever you want. It makes a big difference.
    Good mirages, after already all the TP/shadowstep/stealth/detargeting, just press V right when you're going to hit them (like a dodge in fact, except it's stronger, and you have also TP/shadowstep/stealth/detargeting etc)
    Okai there is weakness, endurance regen, etc; but with food, vigor, sigil, this argument is inconsequent. I won't say they are "OP" in wvw, to not offend pro-cheesy condi mirage but they don't have that much counters, and for the rest they just can flee away easily. Delete sigil and food, and look at half the mirages changing class for another cheesy build.

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    Nerf sigil of Energy, delete endurance food. Problem solved.
    The food (and endurance in general) shoud not be the lifeblood of a build, it should help a bit beginners, not sustain completly broken builds.

    What helps the Mirage so much is not just the faster dodge availability, in fact if they run Elusive Mind they don't benefit as much from the Endurance food, however what makes their dodges so frequent is that they have so many, and can make their clones evade as well whenever they gain Mirage Cloak which can be frequent and near on demand which almost completely nullifies one of the main ways to counter Mesmers in fights (i.e killing clones to keep them from shattering). I've said it before and I will say it again, Mesmers did not need that rework they got at all in regards to their clones. It was an entirely unnecessary change that needs to get rolled back, even the very good Mesmers you might watch on youtube say that Mirage just vomits out clones nonstop.

    Its no secret that Rangers have excessive boon uptime, and the Protection on Dodge certainly doesn't help that and paired with Druid and boonbeast builds it gets crazy. Rangers probably have the best boon uptime next to maybe Guardians and Chronos just in general, excluding Revs and their near permanent 25 Might stacks. However thats just how the class works and I'm fine with that but I do think they need to tone down on the amount of healing a Druid can do to themselves because they can run mara/zerk, have near perma prot and regen and then stealth and heal to full with minimal effort, or they can kite about a mile away from melee, heal and then rapid fire a LONGBOW. Soulbeast can get tricky there but that is almost entirely due to Rangers innate ability to kite for very long distances which can make securing a kill on a Soulbeast that is even mildly competent at kiting a bit difficult.


    Just on Longbow as a note, I very much dislike that a weapon that is designed for long range accuracy has a skill that makes it fire like an automatic weapon. With the range Longbow has on top of the damage it can do, while it can be countered no doubt, is just one other excessive thing that this class has that looks and behaves silly in my eyes. Do I want them to remove damage from Longbow? No, no, I just want it to be appropriate to the theme of the weapon. Give it a snipe skill in place of it, bring back Precision Shot from GW1 since Anet seems to be fans of giving long range , high damage skills an Unblockable effect (looks at Deadeye's Death's Judgment). Or Keen Arrow which deals even more damage if it lands as a critical hit. GW1 at least had the courtesy of making Rapid Fire a Preparation skill which essentially functioned like Quickness does, increased attack speed for a duration and even that had a 12 second cooldown, Rapid Fire in GW2 is on a 10 second cooldown, 8 second cooldown when traited and benefits from Quickness.

    Most Holosmiths don't even take Adrenal Implant because Kinetic Battery is so good with the spec, they'd be sacrificing a significantly helpful utility that allows their photon Forge 5 skill to be much harder to avoid. In fact vigor uptime isn't even the "broken" thing about Holosmith, its more related to the amount of damage they can put out on top of the kind of sustain they have while having one of the best invuln passives in the game that can be double popped (invulnerable to damage and condis).

    Warrior got MMR nerfed a while ago and while yes it is still very viable and helps with endurance regeneration we're still talking about a class whose sustain is almost entirely regulated by actually landing a burst skill, assuming Defense line is used which it usually is with the exception of the tetherbreaker build thats gotten popular recently. Even then that is mostly viable in sPvP and tends to be very, very squishy in WvW with slightly less effectiveness because people aren't forced to stand on a pinprick size capture point when fighting Spellbreakers in WvW. Also if you're using the dodges to heal yourself or to deal out damage then you're wasting dodges which leaves you open for getting exploded. In most cases, Warrior sustain is built behind landing highly telegraphed skills that actual good players know to dodge and Mending being a somewhat viable option doesn't necessarily change that nor does it make Warrior OP. People still prefer Healing Signet over Mending unless in specific circumstances of needing a more on demand heal depending on who they are fighting (not what) or in need of slightly more condi cleanse. Warrior is honestly probably the most balanced class right now despite how people might view it. Why? Because most people waste dodges for no reason in PvP and its funny af to watch it happen because I know I now have an opportunity to hit with my burst skills.

    Daredevil can be annoying with their amount of dodges, I won't dispute you on that, however even despite that they aren't that OP and if they are spending all of their time dodging you can very easily predict where their bounding dodge will land and avoid their damage. Or CC them at the very end of their dodge to lock them down and kill them. More often than not if you're fighting a DD that is spending the majority of their time kiting and dodging it means they aren't putting any pressure on you and if the fight just goes on like that forever just walk away, maybe they'll get cocky and chase and give you an opening for CC to then blow them up. I've done that before, it was hilarious. Though I will admit...the whole Pistol Whip spam stuff still being a thing that can be abused is uh...well yeah they need to fix that.

    Deadeye needs to get fixed beyond needing to remove endurance regeneration from them. The problem with their stealth on dodge is that it has no ICD. It needs an ICD and it would fix the problem easily, and I can't stress this enough. Silent Scope needs an ICD. Also Malicious Backstab needs a longer cast time. Malicious backstab NEEDS a longer cast time, the amount of damage that skill can do instantly out of stealth forces that to be a required change because otherwise the DE will be perma stealthed and simply appear, instantly hit you for 18k+ and they can do that whenever they want. It needs the same windup time as Death's Judgment.

    People need to stop trying to treat the symptoms of these issues, they need to actually address the disease itself. Which...well...to be honest the "disease" is technically just the fact that ArenaNet tests balance changes and such internally which is a horrible idea. They need a test server, or a test environment so they can unleash this stuff to the community beforehand and address problems that are found by players that are, and no disrespect meant to the devs, just better than them at this game. Internally testing it themselves and then having the community test things in the live servers has just not been going well, because we get these changes and then end up sitting here for months waiting for the larger issues, not the immediate ones like Rune of Sanctuary, to get addressed if they even get addressed at all.

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