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Endurance, Mirages and Deadeyes


spectrito.8513

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Mirage and Deadeye unique dodge mechanic benefits too much from endurance boosts like food and Energy sigil

Mirage ability to Stunbreak,remove conditions and gain superspeed and invulnerability on top of insane damage while performing actions is too overpower.Deadeyes permastealth offers little to no counterplay, since they can remove reveal.

Do you think Mirages and Deadeyes are on pair with other classes ?If not, how Anet should fix this ?

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General nerfs?1.) nerf bowl of orrian truffle and meat stew to "20% Endurance reg increase".2.) nerf sigil of Energy to 25 % Energy gain (pvp Version)3.) nerf rune of adventurer to 25 % Energy gain.

Problem of DE are NOT the evade Frames, its the invis uptime. there are only Daredevils on perma dodge builds.

to daredevils:

increase initiative Costs of vault to 8 -> a skill that hits for 10k+ dmg while dodging should not be on a ~ 4-5 sec cd with normal initiative reg of thief.nerf "hard to catch"-trait (an automatic defense proc) to 60 seconds cooldown.

to Mirage:

nerf Mirage cloak to not usable while cc'd.

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i dunno holo and warrior deal decent damage on dodge, ranger gains protection wich also will heal the ranger. guardian gets large aoe heal.id say just 3 professions have rather weak on dodge skills: ele, rev, necro.maybe with the next expansion they will get better options to utilize the endurance resource.but either way its a resource spent, giving incentive to spent it for something else than avoiding incoming hits is a good thing.

altho in DEs case (my main) i wouldnt mind to have an F3 to use that endurance -> stealth conversation. because giving that for example a 1/4s casttime would make it interruptable but it also would be faster for the deadeye to enter stealth and leave it again, he also wouldnt need to leave his position wich is an issue when you want to shoot from a 'sniping spot'. so then deadeye would need to choose to use endurance for a dodge or for stealth.

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@"Zero.3871" said:General nerfs?1.) nerf bowl of orrian truffle and meat stew to "20% Endurance reg increase".2.) nerf sigil of Energy to 25 % Energy gain (pvp Version)3.) nerf rune of adventurer to 25 % Energy gain.

Problem of DE are NOT the evade Frames, its the invis uptime. there are only Daredevils on perma dodge builds.

to daredevils:

increase initiative Costs of vault to 8 -> a skill that hits for 10k+ dmg while dodging should not be on a ~ 4-5 sec cd with normal initiative reg of thief.nerf "hard to catch"-trait (an automatic defense proc) to 60 seconds cooldown.

to Mirage:

nerf Mirage cloak to not usable while cc'd.

dood. why would you nerf them indirectly when you can nerf them directly? the food, sigil, and rune nerf is what im talking about.

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Deadeye - > Change stealth on dodgeMirage - > Rework of GM Trait (?)Sigil is imo fine, change the food with enudrance regeneration, nerf it or rework.Speaking of Staff DD, few lads started abusing it lately, ANet might consider changing vault stats, but I'm not convinced about that.

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What is even more ridiculous is that on Mirage you can dodge (without interrupting any action) that also lasts 1 second vs 0.75 for everyone else, cleanse a condi, remove a CC (OMG you lose endurance regen for 6 seconds, give me a break), become invulnerable, as you can't be pulled either while in mirage cloak like every other class can be, you can use your #1 ambush skill AND stomp at the same time all off of a minor trait......W.......T.......F.

And no, nerfing the food and other items across the board punishes everyone for an over performing class, and those classes will still have a higher advantage from those given items over others, that will not change unless the adjustment is specific to those builds.

As for DE, yes, lots of evades, but nothing as bad as acro condi builds or DD, what DE has is stealth and counters to reveal. I knew it was bad but the other day I had a good laugh about it, as I was in SEC with a DE from my server, after we capped he ran all the way to SWC and I followed him....He remained stealthed the WHOLE WAY to SWC. We get there and a ranger is capping sentry, ranger is looking at me coming in, no idea a DE exists and he one shot BS the ranger. Fun game play there for sure.

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Holosmith is another offender to OP's gripe. WvW Endurance gains allow Holo to stay in PF for far too long.

@Safandula.8723 said:Just nerf the Dodge food. Atm i use it on all chars becouse of how much it gives

A change to Energy Sigil would be much more effective, such as instead of flat endurance replenishment, it gives something like vigor for 5s. Here's hoping!

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@Zero.3871 said:to Mirage:

nerf Mirage cloak to not usable while cc'd.This is what ANet should have done right in their first balance patch after PoF release. It sums up all the mirage brokeness.

That exhausted nerf was bullshit. Yeah great you can force him to reset a few seconds faster because he has one less dodge but you still can't kill him. ANet still does not understand that the absence of a reward (because your opponent just resets over and over again) for a good performance will frustrate players and create a toxic community. On top of that the nerf misses the point as mirage cloack makes stunbreak obsolete. You just don't need one when you can dodge while being stunned.

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Nerfing the food buff and the sigils aren't going to remedy the problem, it isn't even really specifically their dodges that are the root of the problem, at least not for DE. It is that they have so much else on top of them. You're going to literally hurt many, many, other classes if you nerf down that food. You need to keep that in mind.

DE can clear revealed with its Elite skill which effectively eliminates one of the few ways to even keep them from permastealthing, it is an unneeded effect on an elite skill with 2 charges combined with the rest of the stealth they get from other skills. Nerfing their endurance regen won't rectify this issue by "making them dodge less" it in fact won't do anything to change it. They need to remove the Revealed cleanse on the DE elite skill because its entirely unnecessary and trim down the stealth durations that their abilities give so that they have a harder time in actually maintaining stealth. They also need to make Death's Judgment blockable again because it being Unblockable was completely and utterly unnecessary. As for fixing the problems with Malicious Backstab, I think they need to give it a similar cast time to Death's Judgment because as it functions right now with it just being instant, right out of stealth with nothing to do to prepare for it makes it far, far too much with how much stealth DE has.

Mirage can essentially just chain evasions and kite constantly, they have some of the best mobility in the game which makes all of their evades all the more troublesome seeing as how they can just basically teleport out of a fight, reset and come back. Blurred Frenzy 10 second CD, Illusionary Riposte 15 second CD, False Oasis creates a Mirror that you can shatter for Mirage Cloak 25 second CD, Sand Through Glass evade and stun break while also creating a Mirror for Mirage Cloak 25 second CD. Mirage Cloak tbh should have an internal cooldown I think...its just silly strong right now with how much of it a Mirage can get access to on top of several other evades and their mobility. I get it, Mesmer can be squishy but as it stands right now the amount of evades this spec has are ridiculous. Beatable? Sure. Annoying? 100%. Makes the class much less fun to fight? Absolutely.

DE falls into the same category. Every time I see either a Mirage (hell just Mesmer in general right now) or a DE I just think to myself "Oh great, either this fight will last forever or they will just run away. sigh" Honestly the same goes for Druid right now but that is a different discussion for a different topic. This stuff is just not fun in PvP and it is almost assuredly because Anet chooses to test these balance changes they do, these reworks, within their own development team instead of testing it within the actual community for this game. Which means every time we get a balance patch we have to sit for MONTHS with something that gets broken completely only to wait until the next one which just makes something else broken, and some things they just made worse like DE and Mirage with their reworks that just significantly lowered the skill entry for Mesmer and made DE even worse than it already was.

Point being, the solution isn't to nerf some outlying factor here, the solution is for Anet to either revert the reworks they did to DE and Mirage or nerf more meaningful things in these Elite specs because the bandaids they apply elsewhere do not help ever. Scourge is still relatively silly, FB still making groups immortal, DE continued to permastealth and melt people, Mirage got worse with the phantasms and illusions rework, Soulbeast can still set up one shots, Spellbreaker is still a crutch for less mechanically adept Warrior players in group fights, Holosmith still has too much sustain for how much damage it puts out, Weaver can still never die in 1v1 situations though admittedly its more complicated to play than some other things even if it just has more buttons that need to be pressed to pull it off, and Renegade has always been and is still crap. Then there are things they way overtuned, like the unkillable Druids in 1v1 right now, Heralds and sword/sword being really silly that even some of the known Rev players have attested to, I'd say Reaper but...honestly...that spec needed the boost it got and I really can't hate on it because it finally isn't crap and I'm happy about that. I didn't like nearly any Reaper ever essentially being a free kill, a fight actually happens now and thats fun. Fun. Key word. Fun. Not a chore like Mirage, DE and Druid right now.

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Ok just to clarify.Not a Single mirage i know plays EM.Why Would anyone? anyone who Plays EM still or anyone who Thinks we play EM is delusional.

Anyone who Talks about the Insane ammount of Mirrors is delusional.

Everyone who Thinks mirage has more endurance regen then any other class is delusional.

Warrior/thief/Hunter etc ...

What Game do u play guys?

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@FaboBabo.3581 said:Ok just to clarify.Not a Single mirage i know plays EM.Why Would anyone? anyone who Plays EM still or anyone who Thinks we play EM is delusional.

Anyone who Talks about the Insane ammount of Mirrors is delusional.

Everyone who Thinks mirage has more endurance regen then any other class is delusional.

Warrior/thief/Hunter etc ...

What Game do u play guys?Mirage has a 33% higher dodge uptime than any other class.

Dodge Roll: 0,75s - no skill activation, except instant casts available (which are ironically the most frequent to find on mesmer)Mirage Cloak: 1s - full fight capability

Multiply that with: Endurance Food, Endurance Sigil, Endurance Rune and you get an absurd amount of evasion uptime compared to other specs while being able to burst, kite, reset, heal, stomp.

As usually mirage players don't know their own spec... that happens when you play broken stuff for too long - you begin to think it's your skill level that lets you win matchups.

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@KrHome.1920 said:

@FaboBabo.3581 said:Ok just to clarify.Not a Single mirage i know plays EM.Why Would anyone? anyone who Plays EM still or anyone who Thinks we play EM is delusional.

Anyone who Talks about the Insane ammount of Mirrors is delusional.

Everyone who Thinks mirage has more endurance regen then any other class is delusional.

Warrior/thief/Hunter etc ...

What Game do u play guys?Mirage has a 33% higher dodge uptime than any other class.

Dodge Roll: 0,75s - no skill activation, except instant casts available (which are ironically the most frequent to find on mesmer)Mirage Cloak: 1s - full fight capability

Multiply that with: Endurance Food, Endurance Sigil, Endurance Rune and you get an absurd amount of evasion uptime compared to other specs while being able to burst, kite, reset, heal, stomp.

As usually mirage players don't know their own spec... that happens when you play broken stuff for too long - you begin to think it's your skill level that lets you win matchups.

Oh sorry didnt knew that endurance food , sigil and adventure runes are forbidden on other classes, which have REALLY perma vigor, or endurance gain on might, or increased vigor effectiveness.

The extended dodge time on MC itself is the mechanic of the whole e-spec.

Am I mad becaue Ele has 10 weapon skills more then any other class?Am i mad because Necros have a second Lifebar?Am i mad because Rev's have double the Utilitys that other classes have?

Every class has its own features.

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@KrHome.1920 said:

to Mirage:

nerf Mirage cloak to not usable while cc'd.This is what ANet should have done right in their first balance patch after PoF release. It sums up all the mirage brokeness.

You sure? Because first it was confusion who should only tick in skill activation. - Confusion got nerfed.Then it was vigor who made evade spam possible - Vigor was nerfed.Then it was EM - EM got smiter's booned.Now it is mirage cloak. Next will be IH.

@KrHome.1920 said:

@FaboBabo.3581 said:Ok just to clarify.Not a Single mirage i know plays EM.Why Would anyone? anyone who Plays EM still or anyone who Thinks we play EM is delusional.

Anyone who Talks about the Insane ammount of Mirrors is delusional.

Everyone who Thinks mirage has more endurance regen then any other class is delusional.

Warrior/thief/Hunter etc ...

What Game do u play guys?Mirage has a 33% higher dodge uptime than any other class.

Dodge Roll: 0,75s - no skill activation, except instant casts available (which are ironically the most frequent to find on mesmer)Mirage Cloak: 1s - full fight capability

Multiply that with: Endurance Food, Endurance Sigil, Endurance Rune and you get an absurd amount of evasion uptime compared to other specs while being able to burst, kite, reset, heal, stomp.

As usually mirage players don't know their own spec... that happens when you play broken stuff for too long - you begin to think it's your skill level that lets you win matchups.

As usual non-mirage players talk without knowing what's up. Mirage used to have 0.75 dodge too, it was so awful than a normal dodge was better.With the vigor nerf other professions have more evade uptime then mirage.

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@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:As usual non-mirage players talk without knowing what's up. Mirage used to have 0.75 dodge too, it was so awful than a normal dodge was better.With the vigor nerf other professions have more evade uptime then mirage.Please L2P.

I roam with mirage players that are untouchable in WvW. And so are the few good ones we run into.

This spec knows only two limitations when fully buffed by all endurance granting stuff: overextending and lack of skill.

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Meanwhile holo has perma vigor and adrenal implant giving them 1 dodge every 6s or so, ranger likewise has perma vigor and a similar trait. Did I mention magebane warriors with might makes right? Rev regains 1/2 dodge from Riposting Shadows.

There's only necro, and mesmer that have no bonus endurance regen outside of runes, sigils, food and vigor. Necro doesn't even get vigor. Guard and ele have some....lacking traits for it so I'd not count them. What's worse is that the holo, ranger, war and rev all have plenty of low cool down active defences ontop of being able to heavily cheese dodges if they want with some pretty sick regen too.

@MUDse.7623 ele has always had a decent on dodge trait with evasive arcana

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@KrHome.1920 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:As usual non-mirage players talk without knowing what's up. Mirage used to have 0.75 dodge too, it was so awful than a normal dodge was better.With the vigor nerf other professions have more evade uptime then mirage.Please L2P.

I roam with mirage players that are untouchable in WvW. And so are the few good ones we run into.

This spec knows only two limitations when fully buffed by all endurance granting stuff: overextending and lack of skill.

In WvW I'm inclined to agree. especially Condi mirage, it's absolute Ebola in the roaming scene/ very small scale. Access to Dire/Trailblaizer stats + energy sigils (50 Endurance), Endurance Regen food + Vigor, adventure runes. Playing it for a couple hours last night trying to get a better idea how to fight them, I learned nothing aside from i can face roll everything that isn't another decently played condi mirage and a Condi DD that can skip out when it gets too hot. You really have to go out of your way to die on it.

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@KrHome.1920 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:As usual non-mirage players talk without knowing what's up. Mirage used to have 0.75 dodge too, it was so awful than a normal dodge was better.With the vigor nerf other professions have more evade uptime then mirage.Please L2P.

I roam with mirage players that are untouchable in WvW. And so are the few good ones we run into.

This spec knows only two limitations when fully buffed by all endurance granting stuff: overextending and lack of skill.

L2p - good argument there.

I roam too but not with mirage friends, playing mirage myself and guess what, most of the times the opponents one finds in wvw are potatos or people who have no clue how to play without a zerg behind them.If you go by that, even ele needs a nerf.

Runes, sigils and food, the thing everyone has access too, already said above: meh, you can nerf em all you want. Food isn't needed at all, there are better runes out there and no sigil of endurance means a damage sigil instead of it, more burst more qq.

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