Rune and Sigil Changes - 13 November 2018 [Merged] - Page 8 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Rune and Sigil Changes - 13 November 2018 [Merged]

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  • Balancing a class around a rune

    Wow.

  • Vegeta.2563Vegeta.2563 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 15, 2018

    While this is related to the Sanctuary runes. The nerf to Abrasive Gift was uncalled for, and should be looked at a 2nd time. 5 seconds is a long time between condition clearing when it's one of scourges main sources for condition removal. Having a 5 second cooldown hurts scourge a lot. While the Sanctuary runes providing barrier that triggered the trait was the problem. I suggest adjusting the rune to only trigger on actual healing skills, and not trigger on life siphon. This is where the actual problem is. Then the cooldown on the trait can be lifted, as the might gain would only trigger from actual healing and not life siphon.

  • I really hate having all the work I did to unlock all those recipes is null and void now. A QoL update shouldn't undo practically all your progress in the thing it's trying to improve.

  • Ashen.2907Ashen.2907 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:
    Per the hotfix - Abrasive Grit: This trait now has a 5-second cooldown, and the might it grants has been increased from 2 stacks for 6 seconds to 3 stacks for 8 seconds.

    Revert this. There's no logical reason to nerf the trait when the problem was the Rune. Stop hitting the class when the problem is the item.

    The only class that abused it no longer abuses it. Nerf the extreme outlier, then nerf the rest if it still is too strong. Now we will be able to tell.> @Ashen.2907 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    @Lindaklingomat.1253 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Thats just a bad change. It should be all seperate in diff options "salvage gear" "salvage runes" "salvage sigils".

    Black lion kits keeping the rune and sigil make all of it look like a cashgrab.

    I agree 100% This feels like a big downgrade and a cashgrab, even a little "pay to win" to be honest

    You get free black lion salvage kits every month.. the daily log ins give them to you. They have 25 charges, most people are swimming in them. Personally I have deleted at least 100 of them already because they are useless to me...

    I must be missing something. How are you certain to get free multiple BLSKs every month?

    I am not personally as aware of the contents of, "most people's," inventory as you seem to be, but I do know that I am not swimming in them (I do have a partial kit right now thats been used sparingly for months).

    Not a month passes without getting one tbh, that's why I said you're guaranteed to get one. You get so many over time, they might as well be.

    If people salvage trash gear for the useless runes then that's their problem honestly

    Hmm, Ive received two this year. I mean they are one of several RNG options from that partiular log in reward. You may be an outlier if you are getting multiple every month. I dont think, and correct me if I am mistaken, that the drop rates from the log in reward support at least two per month. Ive been here since pre-launch and I have not received as many as you claim to have discarded.

  • Eloc Freidon.5692Eloc Freidon.5692 Member ✭✭✭✭

    After looking into these changes, getting any runes and sigils for your gear is now a steep grind. Before you got a chance of getting them from gear and can use them right away. The rate of getting the "motes" is so much significantly lower and you need multiples of the right one to start crafting one.

    I prefer the old method of getting runes and sigils. Just let us salvage those for lucent and motes when we want to craft the upgrades we want.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 15, 2018

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:
    Per the hotfix - Abrasive Grit: This trait now has a 5-second cooldown, and the might it grants has been increased from 2 stacks for 6 seconds to 3 stacks for 8 seconds.

    Revert this. There's no logical reason to nerf the trait when the problem was the Rune. Stop hitting the class when the problem is the item.

    The only class that abused it no longer abuses it. Nerf the extreme outlier, then nerf the rest if it still is too strong. Now we will be able to tell.> @Ashen.2907 said:

    I'm sorry no. That's the most absurd logical fallacy i've ever seen.

    The only class that exploited the extremely poor design of not having an ICD and having a synergy with the rune because they have more barriers is an issue only because the RUNE exist, not because the trait was strong.

    It was not an issue prior to the rework, the issue exist with the rework, rework it to not be in line with literally every other rune which has an ICD.

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:
    Per the hotfix - Abrasive Grit: This trait now has a 5-second cooldown, and the might it grants has been increased from 2 stacks for 6 seconds to 3 stacks for 8 seconds.

    Revert this. There's no logical reason to nerf the trait when the problem was the Rune. Stop hitting the class when the problem is the item.

    The only class that abused it no longer abuses it. Nerf the extreme outlier, then nerf the rest if it still is too strong. Now we will be able to tell.> @Ashen.2907 said:

    I'm sorry no. That's the most absurd logical fallacy i've ever seen.

    The only class that exploited the extremely poor design of not having an ICD and having a synergy with the rune because they have more barriers is an issue only because the RUNE exist, not because the trait was strong.

    It was not an issue prior to the rework, the issue exist with the rework, rework it to not be in line with literally every other rune which has an ICD.

    Look, when you introduce new changes you want these changes to be able to settle. You want more data from it being live etc.

    It's a simple game design standpoint and again, there is a single class abusing it to ABSURD levels, but the rest doesn't seem to be abusing it at all. Yes, you jump to the conclusion that the thing that has been there first is the last one to get changed, but that is silly.

    Again. This wasn't some small interaction. This was a literal godmode to conditions. That's not a minor thing, because of an interaction that isn't that easily fixed without rewriting larger parts of the code (making vampirism not a "heal" effect per se for example to fix this). It's an oversight and it was fixed immediately at least. A pretty large mistake, but they didn't leave it in the game for a full patch cycle. I can understand & relate to that. You have hundreds of traits and thousands of new interactions with them & the new effects. It's very easy to get lost in that, but I don't want to defend Anet on this. I'm just explaining how I see it.

    The rune itself isn't broken, might create some interesting gameplay with builds revolving around it partially at the very least. That's good design. But I will say it again and again, a single class did not only abuse it, but turn into a literal god because of it, while the others may just be okay with it. If you nerfed the rune itself, you now have the former god that might not even consider it anymore because it's bad and a whole bunch of classes that have 0 use for it because it went from meh to terrible once more. If they did that, they could have canned the entire thing because the point of that rework was to elevate runes and sigils from being awful to at least usable, not catapult them back there right away.

    I said it somewhere else too, but I don't think this is the last you'll see of this. They can easily change stuff later on, for now it doesn't kill the class.

    Bite me.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 15, 2018

    @Blocki.4931 said:
    It's a simple game design standpoint and again, there is a single class abusing it to ABSURD levels, but the rest doesn't seem to be abusing it at all. Yes, you jump to the conclusion that the thing that has been there first is the last one to get changed, but that is silly.

    You are putting the cart before the horse. It's not that there was one class that became broken in interaction with the rune. It's that there was one rune that became broken with interaction with the class. You don't balance classes around a single, yet untested rune. You balance new and yet untested runes around already balanced classes.

    Besides, the problem was not the abrasive grit itself. It was the interaction between life siphon mechanic and the rune.

    Again. This wasn't some small interaction. This was a literal godmode to conditions. That's not a minor thing, because of an interaction that isn't that easily fixed without rewriting larger parts of the code (making vampirism not a "heal" effect per se for example to fix this).

    Somehow they managed to do exactly that for regeneration, didn't they. They just have forgotten about life siphon. But now it's the necro that gets the blame.

    It's an oversight

    Yes, it is

    and it was fixed immediately at least.

    Nope, the oversight (life siphon interaction) wasn't fixed, it's stil there.

    They just didn't want to be bothered with fixing the actual problem, and instead hit the necro with a nerfbat, because nerfing necro for any reason is always a good idea.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • ProtoGunner.4953ProtoGunner.4953 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Again you made the mistake to make recipes according to the current market situation. I.e. Sigil of Nullification costs around 7-8g to craft, if it were introduced before the stupid collection which spiked this item 10000fold you would have made a recipe which costs a 10th of this.

    This is beyond any reason.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lanhelin.3480 said:
    I have more than two bank tabs filled with superior runes and sigils. So additionally ANet should either add the entry+functionality to salvage-kits to auto-salvage all exotics (which could lead to lots of exotic items unintentionally salvaged) or simply reduce the quality of runes and sigils by one Tier:

    Old
    Minor - Masterwork
    Major - Rare
    Superior - Exotic

    New
    Minor - Fine
    Major - Masterwork
    Superior - Rare

    They've added the "Salvage Stack" functionality to kits (when you right click), allowing you to choose a specific stack of any non legendary or ascended quality to salvage.

  • I haven't done too much crafting of runes/sigils, but it is my impression, that the droprate of charms is a little low compared to the cost of crafting runes/sigils. For old time players this probably won't be that big of a deal, but for new players it will be difficult and maybe expensive to obtain runes/sigils in the early stages.

    Some quick thougts go towards as mentioned elsewhere, leaving it optional if you wan't to salvage the gear and leave a chance to obtain a rune/sigil. Vice versa. Or salvage the whole deal.

    Another thought would be to have runes/sigils drop in the world. Could be from various bags and bosses.

  • Rpgtabbycat.5869Rpgtabbycat.5869 Member ✭✭
    edited November 15, 2018

    I salvaged 4 sigils and got 4 motes. Really? ANet are you trolling us? Serious question.

    I thought ESO's jewelcrafting had rediculous requirement until now. This makes ESO's jewelcrafting look like a cakewalk in comparison.

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:
    It's a simple game design standpoint and again, there is a single class abusing it to ABSURD levels, but the rest doesn't seem to be abusing it at all. Yes, you jump to the conclusion that the thing that has been there first is the last one to get changed, but that is silly.

    You are putting the cart before the horse. It's not that there was one class that became broken in interaction with the rune. It's that there was one rune that became broken with interaction with the class. You don't balance classes around a single, yet untested rune. You balance new and yet untested runes around already balanced classes.

    Besides, the problem was not the abrasive grit itself. It was the interaction between life siphon mechanic and the rune.

    Again. This wasn't some small interaction. This was a literal godmode to conditions. That's not a minor thing, because of an interaction that isn't that easily fixed without rewriting larger parts of the code (making vampirism not a "heal" effect per se for example to fix this).

    Somehow they managed to do exactly that for regeneration, didn't they. They just have forgotten about life siphon. But now it's the necro that gets the blame.

    It's an oversight

    Yes, it is

    and it was fixed immediately at least.

    Nope, the oversight (life siphon interaction) wasn't fixed, it's stil there.

    They just didn't want to be bothered with fixing the actual problem, and instead hit the necro with a nerfbat, because nerfing necro for any reason is always a good idea.

    There's a reason for this too. Regen is classified as regen/boon, vampirism is classified as a flat package of healing. They'd have to rewrite parts of the code to change that interaction, which can cause many more problems. That's not something you put out in a hotfix like that. Nerf the hyperabuser so that the 8 other classes can test it because they have a new rune that might be interesting and okay, instead of nerfing the rune into trash tier for everybody because a single class broke it.

    Bite me.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 15, 2018

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:
    It's a simple game design standpoint and again, there is a single class abusing it to ABSURD levels, but the rest doesn't seem to be abusing it at all. Yes, you jump to the conclusion that the thing that has been there first is the last one to get changed, but that is silly.

    You are putting the cart before the horse. It's not that there was one class that became broken in interaction with the rune. It's that there was one rune that became broken with interaction with the class. You don't balance classes around a single, yet untested rune. You balance new and yet untested runes around already balanced classes.

    Besides, the problem was not the abrasive grit itself. It was the interaction between life siphon mechanic and the rune.

    Again. This wasn't some small interaction. This was a literal godmode to conditions. That's not a minor thing, because of an interaction that isn't that easily fixed without rewriting larger parts of the code (making vampirism not a "heal" effect per se for example to fix this).

    Somehow they managed to do exactly that for regeneration, didn't they. They just have forgotten about life siphon. But now it's the necro that gets the blame.

    It's an oversight

    Yes, it is

    and it was fixed immediately at least.

    Nope, the oversight (life siphon interaction) wasn't fixed, it's stil there.

    They just didn't want to be bothered with fixing the actual problem, and instead hit the necro with a nerfbat, because nerfing necro for any reason is always a good idea.

    There's a reason for this too. Regen is classified as regen/boon, vampirism is classified as a flat package of healing. They'd have to rewrite parts of the code to change that interaction, which can cause many more problems. That's not something you put out in a hotfix like that. Nerf the hyperabuser so that the 8 other classes can test it because they have a new rune that might be interesting and okay, instead of nerfing the rune into trash tier for everybody because a single class broke it.

    Yeah, that's solid thinking here. Nerf the class instead of the rune. After all, that single rune is more important than Necro, isn't it.

    Let it sink in - that trait was perfectly fine up to now. It's only that rune interaction that caused a problem, and yet, the decision was to go after the class, not the rune that caused the problem.

    That's (again) putting the cart before the horse. You just don't balance the class around the rune, you balance the rune around the class.

    It's not the class that broke the rune. It's the rune that broke the class.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blocki.4931 said:
    There's a reason for this too. Regen is classified as regen/boon, vampirism is classified as a flat package of healing. They'd have to rewrite parts of the code to change that interaction, which can cause many more problems. That's not something you put out in a hotfix like that. Nerf the hyperabuser so that the 8 other classes can test it because they have a new rune that might be interesting and okay, instead of nerfing the rune into trash tier for everybody because a single class broke it.

    But they didn't just nerf the trait for the people that were abusing the interaction, they nerfed it for every other scourge as well.

    I'm sure an ICD is easier for them to implement quickly, but the right approach would have been to put a minimum barrier threshold on AG that would allow the barriers from shade and punishment skills to proc without alteration, but weed out the teeny barrier applications coming from 20% of a life steal hit.

  • aikatara.3462aikatara.3462 Member ✭✭
    edited November 15, 2018

    When I heard the news about the upcoming changes the first time I was exited. It sounded like interesting, and seemed to provide a nice solution for all those useless minor and major runes and sigils. But then the patch came and I saw the recipes (5 globs of Ectoplasm - another ectoplasm sink. Sigh. I am not exactly swimming in those), saw the drop rates and now I fear that outfitting new characters will get quite expensive. I am an altoholic. Creating new charas is my favorite end game. Well, sigh, let's see how it developes. I know one thing though: even though I spend money in the gem store regularly I certainly won't buy Black Lion Salvage Kits or other Upgrade removal devices with real money.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 15, 2018

    Bring back runes of Nightmare, omg what particular build you made it for? Why render perfectly fine rune, tested by years, into useless junk that it is now? Nerf mirage not the runes

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The on combat effect on runes was a massive nerf the % on getting hit was far more useful and reliable. That more then any thing needs to be fixed.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • I haven't read the 10 pages (it's a bit much for me), so I'm sorry if this has been answered previously.
    I'm confused about this statement from the official News Blog:
    You’ll still be able to obtain runes and sigils directly through new Mystic Forge recipes that make use of the salvaged materials.

    Are these other/different recipes than those by crafting disciplines?

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Why the addition of vigor duration to Surging Runes? It seems so random and mismatched with the set. Could be interesting to have something like increased outgoing damage while you have an aura active.

    Healing orbs are a mistake. Please delete them ANet.

  • The drop rate for the Lucent Motes is pretty abundant and does not need adjusting, but the drop rate for symbols and charms is ridiculously low, paired with the fact that the new recipes use extremely expensive mats at high quantities, its now more expensive to craft a Rune or Sigil than it is to simply buy one off the trading post, so whats the point? Crafting has always been cheaper than buying off the TP, that's the allure, it's what makes it worth all the time, gold, and effort one has to put into mastering and grandmastering each discipline. Furthermore, not only is it a cheaper alternative to acquiring personal gear we intend to use for ourselves, but it also allows players to make profit buy selling their crafted items on TP... as it is now, whether we are crafting for ourselves or to resell, we actually lose gold! Whats more, this is just the beginning, as more players buy the items off TP rather than craft them, TP prices will go up until they eventually surpass the ridiculous crafting prices. What the hell is with this inflation? This isn't a quality of life update at all, but rather a 'screw you' update. Either the automatic salvaging of runes needs to be changed to optional, or the drop rate of required materials needs to be increase, because this is just too much.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Crafting doesn't have to be cheaper tho, it's a way for people to work towards things on their own.

    That's atleast what a lot of people in the sigil of nullification thread where saying

  • expect this weekend to be intense !!!

  • The drop rates for rune/sigil components are ridiculously low. Honestly what were you thinking?

  • Tyger.1637Tyger.1637 Member ✭✭✭

    @binidj.5734 said:
    The drop rates for rune/sigil components are ridiculously low. Honestly what were you thinking?

    The motes are dropping fine but the elements are low. Like not even one so far from any equipment or rune. Maybe I'll have better luck with superior runes/sigils or with a Mystic/Master or BLSK.

  • @Tyger.1637 said:

    The motes are dropping fine but the elements are low. Like not even one so far from any equipment or rune. Maybe I'll have better luck with superior runes/sigils or with a Mystic/Master or BLSK.

    Not had a single element drop using Mystic kits. I use Mystic on rares, copper-fed on everything else; I may need to revise that given the abysmal drop rates on motes that I'm getting with the Salvage-o-Matic.

  • Durzlla.6295Durzlla.6295 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Of courses it’s cheaper to buy runes and Sicily’s atm than to make them, the crafting materials for runes and sigils came into existence 3 days ago, and all the old runes and sigils that has been salvaged and thrown on the TP haven’t sold yet. Give the market time to balance out.

    "But my children sing to me. Listen. They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family. As their mother, I have to grant them their wish."

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Pifil.5193 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    If you compare what we used to get (vendor trash, that required vendoring or TP-listing dozens of items) with what we get now (stuff that can be deposited into material storage and only 8 types of materials), we're far, far better off now.

    Looking at the data from 1000s of salvages, it's clear that we're currently pulling in more coin (if we sell) which can be used to purchase whatever upgrades we need.

    No, I don't think we're far, far better off. At least, the fact that it was vendor trash wasn't much of a problem for me. "Vendor trash" items are just money after all. It was a minor inconvenience at most.

    As for the materials, sure someone will make more money selling them than selling old Runes and Sigils directly but the obvious flip-side is that anyone who wants to actually use them ends up having to spend a lot more. Take Scholar Runes as an example, the new recipe costs 3g 73s to make.

    • 5 Pile of Lucent Crystal
    • 5 Glob of Ectoplasm
    • 5 Elaborate Totem
    • 2 Charm of Brilliance

    The old recipe cost about 1g 60s to make.

    • 1 Bolt of Gossamer
    • 1 Elaborate Totem
    • 1 Charged Lodestone

    An increase of over 12g per set (14g if you include your water breather). Not the end of the world but it's still additional cost when gearing up. The whole rework feels to me like an excuse to add another material sink to the game. That's not a bad thing in itself as the game could use some more sinks but to me adding the sinks feel like the primary purpose of the rework.

    Eventually, the supply will start to accumulate, as the initial demand surge drops off and we keep salvaging by the truckload. Prices will start to fall and soon, people will be complaining that stuff isn't worth anything. (Although that won't be true either.)

    The price will drop but with very few new Sigils and Runes entering the market from the "traditional" manner (i.e. salvaging gear) I wouldn't count on it dropping all that much any time soon. Again it's not necessarily a bad thing and we'll all adjust but it feels a little off when costs are doubled or tripled overnight.

    That part I take issue with. You have no idea how many runes and sigils are entering the market. Right now a lot of people are hoarding the new materials. What you leave out is: all that vendor trash sigils and runes are now being salvaged into crafting materials. That alone can be a huge increase in supply. I personally sold all my green and rare sigils to vendors pre patch consistently, currently I have not listed any crafting materials, and I had some 2 stacks of Superior Sigils stored up for salvaging.

    Also your math is based on inflated prices of the TP at the moment. Pair that with your wild assumption that supply is less and yes, from that point of view one might be concerned. Doesn't not make the point of view any more correct.

    Here is what it boils down to:
    if the crafting materials required to craft high demand runes are lower than pure rune supply in the past, the prices will increase.
    if the crafting materials required are higher, prices will be lower at the top end, meanwhile ALL runes of all values increase in value since they now all provide ressources to the system.

  • @OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:
    The drop rate for the Lucent Motes is pretty abundant and does not need adjusting, but the drop rate for symbols and charms is ridiculously low

    I can't agree that Lucent Motes don't need adjustments. It will be another worthless material which would be stupid if this is the most important material for all runes.
    It will make runes drop still useless. Agreed that symbols and charms should drop more often they should strike a balance between these two so Lucent motes aren't worthless(something like 1silver would be great like a normal material),

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Let's be real for a moment: Given the amount of trash sigils and runes that were spamming my inventory up until last patch, these droprates are perfectly fine. They are this way because you don't only get 1 or 2 chances for them a day. You get hundreds, if not thousands if you play a lot. Things will normalize soon enough.

    The only bad thing to come from this is that salvaging now feels laggy, with items being salvaged twice before disappearing essentially.

    Bite me.

  • The price of sigils and runes left on TP will go up as leftovers will be bought over time. There won't be income of new sigils and runes for a while (until it will be worth to salvage exotic items with Black Lion Salvage Kits). At this point, crafting cost is still low and not matching cost of Upgrade Extractors which is around 20g/one if you buy 25x (clearly ANET wants us to buy it, but it's not worth yet - market must adapt and stabilize around this price). Every slight change in meta will shake sigil/rune market hard. Every nerf/boost to professions may create huge impact in sigil/rune market as well, when people will TRY to adapt to new meta but then changing your build will cost a lot. Now imagine you have few alts and you want to upgrade their armor/weapon too.

    I know that most of you will disagree with term P2W here, but imo if you are without gold, either you spend $$ and have money now to change your build or you farm days thus you are far behind from those who paid real money. Don't get me wrong, farming isn't that bad (to some extent of course), but ask yourself, would you like to grind your kitten for few days every time meta builds change? No? Obviously it would be easier and time saving to buy gems, but wouldn't it be more fun to spend gems on what you want not what you need?

    It's pity that in near future we will have to spend hundred of gold to change build where not so long time ago literaly EVERYBODY, even new players could change their build at any time for affordable amount of gold. I absolutely dislike what is happening now. Of course I know I might be wrong here and my predictions my be wrong as well, but from business perspective, current sigil/rune model is just perfect for ANET, but not necessarily for players. It feels like slap in the face, really.

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Yes, the market should never have to adapt 3 days into a patch.

    No one is storing materials currently thus reducing supply to the market thus driving up prices.

    Let's all freak out AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

    That's not the case. The cost will drop as players stop hording the new symbols and charms, however the price drop will not be significant, as even the basic, previously cheap, runes now use expensive mats such as Globs of Exctoplasm, and other runes require multiple of the "cheaper" runes to craft. The price to craft will still cost more than they currently cost to buy on TP.

  • @OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:
    The price to craft will still cost more than they currently cost to buy on TP.

    You're writing as if there was a single price in the past.

    Before the announcement of the patch, there were three values of upgrades: vendor trash, low-priced upgrades, and overpriced ones. (NB: "upgrade" referring to just sigils & runes.) A lot of people recognized this as economically problematic. The most desired ones were sometimes 500 times more expensive than the least-useful. Further, some (even vendor trash) items only dropped randomly, without any direct source. Most notable among these: the Superior Sigil of Notification. You could get as many as you wanted (even after Requiem armor) on the TP, but you depended on everyone else to list theirs on the TP.

    In the new world order, every upgrade has a recipe. Every recipe depends on a common component and one of three shared components. Leaving aside some specific examples in which the ingredient choice undermines the changes (e.g. Super Hoelbrak runes, using the Azurite Orb which hasn't had a direct source in 4-5 years)... these recipes are similar enough that most upgrades are going to end up costing within 2-3x of each other, once the disequilibrium ends.

    So yes, most upgrades will cost more, because they won't be vendor trash any longer. And thus the most expensive won't be 500x more valuable. Instead of funding a single coveted rune with 100 or 200 or 500 of non-desired runes, we'll need only a handful.

    The whole point of overhauling the system is to bring up the bottom of the upgrade market and tone down the relative height of the market's peaks (and perhaps even lower it absolutely).

    That said, there's a lot to quibble over regarding specific recipes. I feel there's an over-reliance on just a few mats and I'm not sure about the ratio of required items (especially ecto & T6 fine mats).

    tl;dr yes, of course prices of some upgrades are going up; that's an intended goal of the overhaul because it's going to (in the long run) decrease the relative cost of the most expensive ones.

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • @yann.1946 said:
    Crafting doesn't have to be cheaper tho, it's a way for people to work towards things on their own.

    That's atleast what a lot of people in the sigil of nullification thread where saying

    Sure, let's see them all say that every couple of months or so when they have to spend 100s of gold to re-rune and re-sigil for the new meta build

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 16, 2018

    @OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    Crafting doesn't have to be cheaper tho, it's a way for people to work towards things on their own.

    That's atleast what a lot of people in the sigil of nullification thread where saying

    Sure, let's see them all say that every couple of months or so when they have to spend 100s of gold to re-rune and re-sigil for the new meta build

    I think you may be exaggerating slightly. I imagine what I'll do is look in mat storage for all the stuff that has accumulated over those couple of months or so . . .

  • @Biff.5312 said:
    I don't know how much things will 'balance out', given that it's expensive to either extract or craft runes now I don't see how the supply is going to increase. It will likely only go down, while the mats drop in price - who knows how long it will take before these are cheap enough to make crafting profitable? Even when it does, people will not craft to the point where it is no longer profitable, so we won't likely see cheap runes again.
    What I DO know is that since this change it's very expensive to get runes of any kind for my toons. I don't know where I'm supposed to be getting these 'thousands of salvages' spoken of above, but so far I've only seen about 4 motes, and I don't have a single recipe for anything I'd want that doesn't cost far more than it's worth.

    So I'm now in the preposterous position of having lvl 80 toons with no runes/sigils equipped while I wait for prices to drop - something I'm assured will happen but I don't see how/why it will

    The preposterous position of having no runes/sigils on your lvl 80 toons. So they had none b4? Keep those. You get these mats passively by playing the game and salvaging stuff. ab vb ds td pof wvw basically anything gives you salvagble stuff. ya its slow but even if its 30g per toon thats 1h each toon at istan if you outright buy the most expensive runes/sigils. you had a week to prep too. you couldve bought tons of runes/sigils to salvage like many did. 4 motes in 3 days. ya you play alot. sorry your 10 toons need instant runes/sigils when you got 4 motes in 3 days.

  • keenedge.9675keenedge.9675 Member ✭✭✭

    @Biff.5312 said:
    So I'm now in the preposterous position of having lvl 80 toons with no runes/sigils equipped while I wait for prices to drop - something I'm assured will happen but I don't see how/why it will.

    Why choose that? Standing naked in the cold, shunning a blanket?

    Use some crests and reasonable sigils until your 'ship comes in'. We've all done this IRL and in-game.

    Moral Statute Machine: John Spartan, you are fined five credits for repeated violations of the verbal morality statute.

  • Pifil.5193Pifil.5193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Pifil.5193 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    If you compare what we used to get (vendor trash, that required vendoring or TP-listing dozens of items) with what we get now (stuff that can be deposited into material storage and only 8 types of materials), we're far, far better off now.

    Looking at the data from 1000s of salvages, it's clear that we're currently pulling in more coin (if we sell) which can be used to purchase whatever upgrades we need.

    No, I don't think we're far, far better off. At least, the fact that it was vendor trash wasn't much of a problem for me. "Vendor trash" items are just money after all. It was a minor inconvenience at most.

    As for the materials, sure someone will make more money selling them than selling old Runes and Sigils directly but the obvious flip-side is that anyone who wants to actually use them ends up having to spend a lot more. Take Scholar Runes as an example, the new recipe costs 3g 73s to make.

    • 5 Pile of Lucent Crystal
    • 5 Glob of Ectoplasm
    • 5 Elaborate Totem
    • 2 Charm of Brilliance

    The old recipe cost about 1g 60s to make.

    • 1 Bolt of Gossamer
    • 1 Elaborate Totem
    • 1 Charged Lodestone

    An increase of over 12g per set (14g if you include your water breather). Not the end of the world but it's still additional cost when gearing up. The whole rework feels to me like an excuse to add another material sink to the game. That's not a bad thing in itself as the game could use some more sinks but to me adding the sinks feel like the primary purpose of the rework.

    Eventually, the supply will start to accumulate, as the initial demand surge drops off and we keep salvaging by the truckload. Prices will start to fall and soon, people will be complaining that stuff isn't worth anything. (Although that won't be true either.)

    The price will drop but with very few new Sigils and Runes entering the market from the "traditional" manner (i.e. salvaging gear) I wouldn't count on it dropping all that much any time soon. Again it's not necessarily a bad thing and we'll all adjust but it feels a little off when costs are doubled or tripled overnight.

    That part I take issue with. You have no idea how many runes and sigils are entering the market. Right now a lot of people are hoarding the new materials. What you leave out is: all that vendor trash sigils and runes are now being salvaged into crafting materials. That alone can be a huge increase in supply. I personally sold all my green and rare sigils to vendors pre patch consistently, currently I have not listed any crafting materials, and I had some 2 stacks of Superior Sigils stored up for salvaging.

    Also your math is based on inflated prices of the TP at the moment. Pair that with your wild assumption that supply is less and yes, from that point of view one might be concerned. Doesn't not make the point of view any more correct.

    My math is based on the actual prices now, you may think they're inflated but they're the real world prices right now.

    I explicitly stated that there would be few new runes and sigils entering the market from the traditional method (salvaging) and that's hardly a "wild assumption." It's basic logic, before now people got runes and sigils all the time from salvaging masterwork, rare and exotic equipment, a lot of those ended up on the TP, now they do not get them from salvaging unless they use a BL salvage kit or an upgrade extractor and I can't see many people using BLSK on Masterwork equipment, for example.

    Finally, I stated that I don't think prices will drop all that much any time soon. Meaning I do think they'll drop but I think it'll happen slowly so I don't know what you think my point of view is but you're probably wrong.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Pifil.5193 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Pifil.5193 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    If you compare what we used to get (vendor trash, that required vendoring or TP-listing dozens of items) with what we get now (stuff that can be deposited into material storage and only 8 types of materials), we're far, far better off now.

    Looking at the data from 1000s of salvages, it's clear that we're currently pulling in more coin (if we sell) which can be used to purchase whatever upgrades we need.

    No, I don't think we're far, far better off. At least, the fact that it was vendor trash wasn't much of a problem for me. "Vendor trash" items are just money after all. It was a minor inconvenience at most.

    As for the materials, sure someone will make more money selling them than selling old Runes and Sigils directly but the obvious flip-side is that anyone who wants to actually use them ends up having to spend a lot more. Take Scholar Runes as an example, the new recipe costs 3g 73s to make.

    • 5 Pile of Lucent Crystal
    • 5 Glob of Ectoplasm
    • 5 Elaborate Totem
    • 2 Charm of Brilliance

    The old recipe cost about 1g 60s to make.

    • 1 Bolt of Gossamer
    • 1 Elaborate Totem
    • 1 Charged Lodestone

    An increase of over 12g per set (14g if you include your water breather). Not the end of the world but it's still additional cost when gearing up. The whole rework feels to me like an excuse to add another material sink to the game. That's not a bad thing in itself as the game could use some more sinks but to me adding the sinks feel like the primary purpose of the rework.

    Eventually, the supply will start to accumulate, as the initial demand surge drops off and we keep salvaging by the truckload. Prices will start to fall and soon, people will be complaining that stuff isn't worth anything. (Although that won't be true either.)

    The price will drop but with very few new Sigils and Runes entering the market from the "traditional" manner (i.e. salvaging gear) I wouldn't count on it dropping all that much any time soon. Again it's not necessarily a bad thing and we'll all adjust but it feels a little off when costs are doubled or tripled overnight.

    That part I take issue with. You have no idea how many runes and sigils are entering the market. Right now a lot of people are hoarding the new materials. What you leave out is: all that vendor trash sigils and runes are now being salvaged into crafting materials. That alone can be a huge increase in supply. I personally sold all my green and rare sigils to vendors pre patch consistently, currently I have not listed any crafting materials, and I had some 2 stacks of Superior Sigils stored up for salvaging.

    Also your math is based on inflated prices of the TP at the moment. Pair that with your wild assumption that supply is less and yes, from that point of view one might be concerned. Doesn't not make the point of view any more correct.

    My math is based on the actual prices now, you may think they're inflated but they're the real world prices right now.

    So considering there is a market adjustment in progress, that math is worthless.

    @Pifil.5193 said:
    I explicitly stated that there would be few new runes and sigils entering the market from the traditional method (salvaging) and that's hardly a "wild assumption." It's basic logic, before now people got runes and sigils all the time from salvaging masterwork, rare and exotic equipment, a lot of those ended up on the TP, now they do not get them from salvaging unless they use a BL salvage kit or an upgrade extractor and I can't see many people using BLSK on Masterwork equipment, for example.

    That is a half truth, currently Black Lion Salvage Kits are bugged and do not provide the same amount of Sigil/Rune resources as they should. Once those are fixed they will provide you with the material equivalent or Rune/Sigil when salvaging. Simply put, you are geting way more materials for runes/sigils to craft while getting less actual runes/sigils.

    Based on that reasoning, your assumptions are wrong.

    @Pifil.5193 said:

    Finally, I stated that I don't think prices will drop all that much any time soon. Meaning I do think they'll drop but I think it'll happen slowly so I don't know what you think my point of view is but you're probably wrong.

    So if prices adjust eventually, all is fine and the title of this thread and opening topic is false, right?

  • Pifil.5193Pifil.5193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Pifil.5193 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Pifil.5193 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    If you compare what we used to get (vendor trash, that required vendoring or TP-listing dozens of items) with what we get now (stuff that can be deposited into material storage and only 8 types of materials), we're far, far better off now.

    Looking at the data from 1000s of salvages, it's clear that we're currently pulling in more coin (if we sell) which can be used to purchase whatever upgrades we need.

    No, I don't think we're far, far better off. At least, the fact that it was vendor trash wasn't much of a problem for me. "Vendor trash" items are just money after all. It was a minor inconvenience at most.

    As for the materials, sure someone will make more money selling them than selling old Runes and Sigils directly but the obvious flip-side is that anyone who wants to actually use them ends up having to spend a lot more. Take Scholar Runes as an example, the new recipe costs 3g 73s to make.

    • 5 Pile of Lucent Crystal
    • 5 Glob of Ectoplasm
    • 5 Elaborate Totem
    • 2 Charm of Brilliance

    The old recipe cost about 1g 60s to make.

    • 1 Bolt of Gossamer
    • 1 Elaborate Totem
    • 1 Charged Lodestone

    An increase of over 12g per set (14g if you include your water breather). Not the end of the world but it's still additional cost when gearing up. The whole rework feels to me like an excuse to add another material sink to the game. That's not a bad thing in itself as the game could use some more sinks but to me adding the sinks feel like the primary purpose of the rework.

    Eventually, the supply will start to accumulate, as the initial demand surge drops off and we keep salvaging by the truckload. Prices will start to fall and soon, people will be complaining that stuff isn't worth anything. (Although that won't be true either.)

    The price will drop but with very few new Sigils and Runes entering the market from the "traditional" manner (i.e. salvaging gear) I wouldn't count on it dropping all that much any time soon. Again it's not necessarily a bad thing and we'll all adjust but it feels a little off when costs are doubled or tripled overnight.

    That part I take issue with. You have no idea how many runes and sigils are entering the market. Right now a lot of people are hoarding the new materials. What you leave out is: all that vendor trash sigils and runes are now being salvaged into crafting materials. That alone can be a huge increase in supply. I personally sold all my green and rare sigils to vendors pre patch consistently, currently I have not listed any crafting materials, and I had some 2 stacks of Superior Sigils stored up for salvaging.

    Also your math is based on inflated prices of the TP at the moment. Pair that with your wild assumption that supply is less and yes, from that point of view one might be concerned. Doesn't not make the point of view any more correct.

    My math is based on the actual prices now, you may think they're inflated but they're the real world prices right now.

    So considering there is a market adjustment in progress, that math is worthless.

    There are always market adjustments happening my math is entirely valid for those of us who actually live in the here and now.

    @Pifil.5193 said:
    I explicitly stated that there would be few new runes and sigils entering the market from the traditional method (salvaging) and that's hardly a "wild assumption." It's basic logic, before now people got runes and sigils all the time from salvaging masterwork, rare and exotic equipment, a lot of those ended up on the TP, now they do not get them from salvaging unless they use a BL salvage kit or an upgrade extractor and I can't see many people using BLSK on Masterwork equipment, for example.

    That is a half truth, currently Black Lion Salvage Kits are bugged and do not provide the same amount of Sigil/Rune resources as they should. Once those are fixed they will provide you with the material equivalent or Rune/Sigil when salvaging. Simply put, you are geting way more materials for runes/sigils to craft while getting less actual runes/sigils.

    No they will provide you with the runes and sigils as before, that's their intended functionality.

    Based on that reasoning, your assumptions are wrong.

    You're trying to expand what I actually said beyond my actual statement in order to create a universe where you're right, that won't work, read my actual statement: materials are not runes or sigils obtained from salvaging my statement is 100% correct.

    @Pifil.5193 said:

    Finally, I stated that I don't think prices will drop all that much any time soon. Meaning I do think they'll drop but I think it'll happen slowly so I don't know what you think my point of view is but you're probably wrong.

    So if prices adjust eventually, all is fine and the title of this thread and opening topic is false, right?

    You're funny. I'd say it will be fine if and when they adjust but it's not fine now.

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    In the new world order, every upgrade has a recipe. Every recipe depends on a common component and one of three shared components. Leaving aside some specific examples in which the ingredient choice undermines the changes (e.g. Super Hoelbrak runes, using the Azurite Orb which hasn't had a direct source in 4-5 years)... these recipes are similar enough that most upgrades are going to end up costing within 2-3x of each other, once the disequilibrium ends.

    I'm not sure how you get there.

    Let's say rune A and rune B have equivalent drop rates, that rune A is basically useless in any build, and rune B is very desired. Both salvage to and are crafted with Charms of Exemplification. Let's also assume that the recipes are similar, such that crafting either takes 3 charms, along with 3g of other materials. The equilibrium price for rune B is around 12g, due to being meta. The charms are worth around 3g each, since rune B is the main driver of their value.

    Now, if rune A has about a 2% chance to salvage into a charm, using a Mystic salvage kit, then it's actual expected value is around 2% of 3g, or 6s. Not that many people would bother extracting the rune or crafting it, most likely, so it's just a slight bonus to the value of whatever exotic has it (but much less than the value of mats, ectos, insignias, and dark matter). You won't see much of rune A on the TP at all once the initial stock dries up. But the effective price differential is 6s to 1200s, or about 200 times, not 2 or 3 times.

    Of course, if the actual salvage rate is better than 2 charms per hundred runes, then rune A is worth more. And if it's less, the discrepancy is even larger.

    Now, if both runes have some decent utility, then sure, the prices may be more similar. But that's more a question of gameplay balancing, not crafting recipes.

    TLDR; vendor trash runes are still vendor trash runes, except that you would lose money trying to actually vendor them. So, salvage trash.

  • @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:
    The price to craft will still cost more than they currently cost to buy on TP.

    You're writing as if there was a single price in the past.

    Before the announcement of the patch, there were three values of upgrades: vendor trash, low-priced upgrades, and overpriced ones. (NB: "upgrade" referring to just sigils & runes.) A lot of people recognized this as economically problematic. The most desired ones were sometimes 500 times more expensive than the least-useful. Further, some (even vendor trash) items only dropped randomly, without any direct source. Most notable among these: the Superior Sigil of Notification. You could get as many as you wanted (even after Requiem armor) on the TP, but you depended on everyone else to list theirs on the TP.

    In the new world order, every upgrade has a recipe. Every recipe depends on a common component and one of three shared components. Leaving aside some specific examples in which the ingredient choice undermines the changes (e.g. Super Hoelbrak runes, using the Azurite Orb which hasn't had a direct source in 4-5 years)... these recipes are similar enough that most upgrades are going to end up costing within 2-3x of each other, once the disequilibrium ends.

    So yes, most upgrades will cost more, because they won't be vendor trash any longer. And thus the most expensive won't be 500x more valuable. Instead of funding a single coveted rune with 100 or 200 or 500 of non-desired runes, we'll need only a handful.

    The whole point of overhauling the system is to bring up the bottom of the upgrade market and tone down the relative height of the market's peaks (and perhaps even lower it absolutely).

    That said, there's a lot to quibble over regarding specific recipes. I feel there's an over-reliance on just a few mats and I'm not sure about the ratio of required items (especially ecto & T6 fine mats).

    tl;dr yes, of course prices of some upgrades are going up; that's an intended goal of the overhaul because it's going to (in the long run) decrease the relative cost of the most expensive ones.

    Superior rune of Hoelbrook cost 6g... supperior rune of flock, which uses 3 superior runes of Hoelbrook cost 12g. Thus, since the previously more expensive ones require multiples of the previously cheaper ones to craft, then raising the prices of the preciously cheaper ones absolute raises the prices of the previously more expensive. This doesnt just 'bring up the bottom' as you suggested, it also inflates the top.

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @perilisk.1874 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    In the new world order, every upgrade has a recipe. Every recipe depends on a common component and one of three shared components. Leaving aside some specific examples in which the ingredient choice undermines the changes (e.g. Super Hoelbrak runes, using the Azurite Orb which hasn't had a direct source in 4-5 years)... these recipes are similar enough that most upgrades are going to end up costing within 2-3x of each other, once the disequilibrium ends.

    I'm not sure how you get there.

    Let's say rune A and rune B have equivalent drop rates, that rune A is basically useless in any build, and rune B is very desired. Both salvage to and are crafted with Charms of Exemplification. Let's also assume that the recipes are similar, such that crafting either takes 3 charms, along with 3g of other materials. The equilibrium price for rune B is around 12g, due to being meta. The charms are worth around 3g each, since rune B is the main driver of their value.

    Now, if rune A has about a 2% chance to salvage into a charm, using a Mystic salvage kit, then it's actual expected value is around 2% of 3g, or 6s. Not that many people would bother extracting the rune or crafting it, most likely, so it's just a slight bonus to the value of whatever exotic has it (but much less than the value of mats, ectos, insignias, and dark matter). You won't see much of rune A on the TP at all once the initial stock dries up. But the effective price differential is 6s to 1200s, or about 200 times, not 2 or 3 times.

    Of course, if the actual salvage rate is better than 2 charms per hundred runes, then rune A is worth more. And if it's less, the discrepancy is even larger.

    Now, if both runes have some decent utility, then sure, the prices may be more similar. But that's more a question of gameplay balancing, not crafting recipes.

    TLDR; vendor trash runes are still vendor trash runes, except that you would lose money trying to actually vendor them. So, salvage trash.

    Actually, it's a little bit worse than I was thinking before. As you said, under the old system where runes were randomly gained from salvage, you basically had three tiers of superior upgrades

    • Tier A: BiS, expensive upgrade
    • Tier B: Poor man's tier A. Not quite as good, but also much less expensive.
    • Tier C: Vendor trash.

    We already established that vendor trash is vendor trash (well, salvage trash), but let's say that rune A was actually the poor man's version of rune B under the old system. They occupy a similar niche, but rune B is just better.

    In this system, you are not randomly getting runes, such that there will be similar numbers of A and B entering the economy just because. You are making a deliberate choice to craft rune A or rune B and bring it into the economy. They cost the same, going by the previous example, but rune B is better, so obviously you will craft rune B.

    Therefore, the only value of rune A is to provide the charms needed to get rune B. That is, 6s. Well, there is one exception -- if someone is looking for exotic armor with a certain set of stats, in a certain weight, with runes that fit a certain niche, then rune A that drops on that armor might still be valued as the poor man's B -- but only in that situation.

    Under the new system, there are only two tiers of runes/sigils: expensive upgrades that are BiS for their particular niche (which, yes, will probably have similar prices unless the mats other than motes/charms/symbols are very differently priced), and salvage trash.

  • People are under the assumption that given sufficient time, more symbols and charms will appear on the trading post, thus making the runes much cheaper... this would be true if the sigils and runes relied on symbols and charms alone to craft them. But that is not the case. Other materials are required as well, and for whatever reason, ANet chose the more expensive ones to use. The prices of these other materials wont change after a few weeks of filling the market with symbols and charms, they arnt new materials that just need some time to stockpile at the TP. And thus the drop in the cost of symbols and charms alone wont significantly lower the cost of crafting runes and sigils.

  • Airdive.2613Airdive.2613 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 16, 2018

    @perilisk.1874 said:

    I'm not sure how you get there.

    Let's say rune A and rune B have equivalent drop rates, that rune A is basically useless in any build, and rune B is very desired. Both salvage to and are crafted with Charms of Exemplification. Let's also assume that the recipes are similar, such that crafting either takes 3 charms, along with 3g of other materials. The equilibrium price for rune B is around 12g, due to being meta. The charms are worth around 3g each, since rune B is the main driver of their value.

    Now, if rune A has about a 2% chance to salvage into a charm, using a Mystic salvage kit, then it's actual expected value is around 2% of 3g, or 6s. Not that many people would bother extracting the rune or crafting it, most likely, so it's just a slight bonus to the value of whatever exotic has it (but much less than the value of mats, ectos, insignias, and dark matter). You won't see much of rune A on the TP at all once the initial stock dries up. But the effective price differential is 6s to 1200s, or about 200 times, not 2 or 3 times.

    Excuse me.
    So the stock of rune A dries up right until it's no longer beneficial to buy it for salvage-crafting rune B. In your case, its expected value is going to be 2% of the rune B's value. This is the equilibrium: you don't buy off the TP for 12 gold what you can craft for 3 gold. So, the difference is about 50 times, not 200.

    Edit: Oh, I see, it takes 3 charms to craft one rune. Right, the number is closer to 200 then (though can be calculated more precisely when I'm bored, lol).

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