[Sigil & Rune Discussion]: Revenant

So since the rune and sigil rework, which ones have you all taken interest in? Do any seem particularly effective? Any interesting observations?

Some observations:-Antitoxin runes do not seem to proc from condi absorption (Pain Absorption/Facet of Mallyx - Nature). Big bummer for me because I was looking forward to playing with this in Mallyx. Did not test with condi transfer. Could work nicely with quite a lot of builds at the sacrifice of damage. This along with the cleansing sigil change really seems to trivialize condi application way too severely. Wouldn't be surprised to see this get a chunky nerf.-Altruism runes do not seem to have an ICD. Spamming Embrace the Darkness with these runes is a cheap way of absorbing condis from allies (with a generous radius), but feels awkward. Unfortunately does not seem to absorb condis every pulse, so I believe you have to manually turn it on and off each time, unlike Diabolic Inferno.-Ice runes could potentially be nice for condi rev and could have decent synergy with Diabolic Inferno (despite the difference in ICD).-Monk runes got a nice buff. Didn't really need it, not sure why they buffed the outgoing healing. Synergizes very well with Herald. Makes Dwayna runes seem really pointless.-Speed runes are nice for any build with access to swiftness. Would be nice if the runes themselves granted swiftness.-Tormenting runes are great for condi rev and synergize deliciously with Rampant Vex and Abyssal Chill, but are probably going to get a nerf since they seem to be overperforming.

Right now I'm just waiting for somebody to do the numbers so I can figure out which rune to take on condi renegade. That change to nightmare was a punch in the gut.

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:So since the rune and sigil rework, which ones have you all taken interest in? Do any seem particularly effective? Any interesting observations?

Some observations:-Antitoxin runes do not seem to proc from condi absorption (Pain Absorption/Facet of Mallyx - Nature). Big bummer for me because I was looking forward to playing with this in Mallyx. Did not test with condi transfer. Could work nicely with quite a lot of builds at the sacrifice of damage. This along with the cleansing sigil change really seems to trivialize condi application way too severely. Wouldn't be surprised to see this get a chunky nerf.-Altruism runes do not seem to have an ICD. Spamming Embrace the Darkness with these runes is a cheap way of absorbing condis from allies (with a generous radius), but feels awkward. Unfortunately does not seem to absorb condis every pulse, so I believe you have to manually turn it on and off each time, unlike Diabolic Inferno.-Ice runes could potentially be nice for condi rev and could have decent synergy with Diabolic Inferno (despite the difference in ICD).-Monk runes got a nice buff. Didn't really need it, not sure why they buffed the outgoing healing. Synergizes very well with Herald. Makes Dwayna runes seem really pointless.-Speed runes are nice for any build with access to swiftness. Would be nice if the runes themselves granted swiftness.-Tormenting runes are great for condi rev and synergize deliciously with Rampant Vex and Abyssal Chill, but are probably going to get a nerf since they seem to be overperforming.

Well the change to Rune of the Defender gutted my power Ventari Renegade roaming build. :cry: Back to core condi rev i guess.

• Antitoxin rune seems a bit overkill when you can simply take cleansing sigil on its own.
• Altruism rune looks good on paper but likely gets overlooked in favor of Monk.
• Ice rune was weird even before the patch. I used Grenth runes in my core condi rev build before patch and will likely still use those now with tasty +50% chill duration. But the stats on Ice are still mediocre. The (6) bonus synergy does look nice with Diabolic Inferno. But since they fixed Pulsating Pestilence to transfer conditions instead of copying i don't see much reason to take DI anymore, even though i love that trait with Ventari.
• Speed rune looked nice at first but after seeing footage and weighing it against runes that offer more useful stat bonuses i'm not convinced it will be used heavily.
• Tormenting is already being shown everywhere as OP due to some bug with it proccing on every condition application rather than only on torment, so i guess that will get nerfed. It will likely be a great, if not the best, option for condi herald even post nerf.

Other than those Sanctuary looked interesting to me, but not sure how effective it is on Ventari. Probably not that amazing. Rune of the Mirage is another one, might have some use due to solid stats and decent (6) bonus. Though with "on evade" it's more useful to something like condi Daredevil with d/d or s/p & lotus dodge.

In general most "trash" runes were brought up to par, but a lot of the more interesting effects were removed in favor of flat stat bonuses. Though i get that most of the "On Struck" effects are too passive for most people. On the upside, all hail the new and improved sigil of doom.

I tried the Ice runes briefly. I don't think the elite effect is worthwhile with the stats provided. It's basically the same thing as sigil of hydromancy but with more effort required.

Shortbow with sigil of celerity and rage feels amazing by the way if anyone was thinking of trying it.

@WraithOfStealth.1624 said:

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:So since the rune and sigil rework, which ones have you all taken interest in? Do any seem particularly effective? Any interesting observations?

Some observations:-

Antitoxin

runes do not seem to proc from condi absorption (Pain Absorption/Facet of Mallyx - Nature).

Big

bummer for me because I was looking forward to playing with this in Mallyx. Did not test with condi transfer. Could work nicely with quite a lot of builds at the sacrifice of damage. This along with the cleansing sigil change really seems to trivialize condi application way too severely. Wouldn't be surprised to see this get a chunky nerf.-

Altruism

runes do not seem to have an ICD. Spamming Embrace the Darkness with these runes is a cheap way of absorbing condis from allies (with a generous radius), but feels awkward. Unfortunately does not seem to absorb condis every pulse, so I believe you have to manually turn it on and off each time, unlike Diabolic Inferno.-

Ice

runes could

potentially

be nice for condi rev and could have decent synergy with Diabolic Inferno (despite the difference in ICD).-

Monk

runes got a nice buff. Didn't really need it, not sure why they buffed the outgoing healing. Synergizes very well with Herald. Makes Dwayna runes seem really pointless.-

Speed

runes are nice for any build with access to swiftness. Would be nice if the runes themselves granted swiftness.-

Tormenting

runes are great for condi rev and synergize deliciously with Rampant Vex and Abyssal Chill, but are probably going to get a nerf since they seem to be overperforming.

• Antitoxin rune seems a bit overkill when you can simply take cleansing sigil on its own.
• Altruism rune looks good on paper but likely gets overlooked in favor of Monk.
• Ice rune was weird even before the patch. I used Grenth runes in my core condi rev build before patch and will likely still use those now with tasty +50% chill duration. But the stats on Ice are still mediocre. The (6) bonus synergy does look nice with Diabolic Inferno. But since they fixed Pulsating Pestilence to transfer conditions instead of copying i don't see much reason to take DI anymore, even though i love that trait with Ventari.
• Speed rune looked nice at first but after seeing footage and weighing it against runes that offer more useful stat bonuses i'm not convinced it will be used heavily.
• Tormenting is already being shown everywhere as OP due to some bug with it proccing on every condition application rather than only on torment, so i guess that will get nerfed. It will likely be a great, if not the best, option for condi herald even post nerf.

Antitoxin runes trigger for allies as well, so classes with frequent condi cleanse access (pulsing particularly) benefit immensely from the set. Like absurd levels. Conversion holo and scrapper come to mind. IMO this is a very unhealthy change.

I agree that Altruism will probably still be outshined by Monk as the usage is too niche and pulsing EtD means less energy for PA, which would still be important to use for the resistance uptime. I would probably use them if it automatically triggered every second from EtD and if EtD was instant-cast, but that may make them stronger than intended.

Yeah I see your point about Ice runes. Grenth actually does sound very nice. 50% chill duration is pretty juicy. I am in the process of trying to make a core cele build similar to your condi Ventari roamer build, so I may give this a try once I get geared up. Shame Altruism got changed because that had great synergy with fury and might uptime for Invocation. On that note, do you feel the swiftness from Rapid Flow is too important to sacrifice for IR?

sanctuary looks good since heal rev has such high healing numbers - a 10k tablet heal will give 2k barrier.I was excited to test out dwayna but then monk got a very unnecessary buff.rune of air looks nice for roaming.rune of vampirism looks good for zerging.

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" Ah yes, i see what you mean. I mistakenly thought Antitoxin (6) was only applied to the player, that's pretty strong then.

On Rapid Flow vs Incensed Response, before the patch i ran IR over RF on my power Renegade. Basically having only Shiro upkeep as extra movement speed, i felt sword 5 and Phase Traversal provided enough mobility paired with the occasional Impossible Odds burst. For core condi rev however i don't see a reason not to take RF. While we do have axe 4 (OH sword 5 too i guess.) and UA on Mallyx for some slight mobility, the extra swiftness is really helpful to keep up with/kite enemies. I guess it depends on which legends you will use, if you include Shiro you can probably get away with not using RF.

Good luck with the build though, sounds interesting! I never had the guts to try celestial Revenant, too obsessed with perfect stat spreads. :smile:

@WraithOfStealth.1624 said:@"Pterikdactyl.7630" Ah yes, i see what you mean. I mistakenly thought Antitoxin (6) was only applied to the player, that's pretty strong then.

On Rapid Flow vs Incensed Response, before the patch i ran IR over RF on my power Renegade. Basically having only Shiro upkeep as extra movement speed, i felt sword 5 and Phase Traversal provided enough mobility paired with the occasional Impossible Odds burst. For core condi rev however i don't see a reason not to take RF. While we do have axe 4 (OH sword 5 too i guess.) and UA on Mallyx for some slight mobility, the extra swiftness is really helpful to keep up with/kite enemies. I guess it depends on which legends you will use, if you include Shiro you can probably get away with not using RF.

Good luck with the build though, sounds interesting! I never had the guts to try celestial Revenant, too obsessed with perfect stat spreads. :smile:

Yeah my thought process behind cele is that IR and Rolling Mists would help maximize the stat spread (since IR still grants 5 might in WvW iirc), bringing it to about 80% crit chance with fury. Without herald, that would require Fierce Infusion, offhand sword, and my plan was Altruism to maintain perma fury. Now, I'll have to play around. It was the perfect runeset for it and now, Rage runes granting 8s of fury once per fight is just sad. My condi rev has full Apothecarys and I've played around with core Ventari/Mallyx but I didn't feel I could put out enough pressure. So many "glass" meta builds have crazy sustain at no sacrifice to stats, and I didn't feel I could stand a chance unless my damage was higher. May just not know how to play it well though.

Does anyone know if 'Rising Momentum' (Gain increased movement speed of 5% for each point of upkeep currently in use)stacks with Superior Rune of Speed?

Right now I'm just waiting for somebody to do the numbers so I can figure out which rune to take on condi renegade. That change to nightmare was a punch in the gut.

Compared to the old Nightmare/Trapper, if you go full Nightmare, you only lose 5%, which leaves you open to hit 98% duration with a Sigil of Malice, which you can then cap off with expertise infusions. This compared to the old setup gives you 100 more condi damage (minus any infusions you swapped) and 5% more burn/bleed/torment duration--but unfortunately comes at the cost of your Geo/Earth sigils. Whether that turns out to be a gain or a loss, I dunno... It's probably closer to a wash.

All that aside... From what I hear, Snowcrows is saying that Baelfire Runes are going to be the new condiren meta anyways. That expertise bonus is juicy, plus no more smoldering sigils to stink up your weapon slots.

Rune of Speed is a bad replacement for superspeed and rising momentum.Sigil of Cleansing is really good now for me. I dropped cleansing channel for rising tide.

Probably going to swap from Rune of Strength to Scholar going forward.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:sanctuary looks good since heal rev has such high healing numbers - a 10k tablet heal will give 2k barrier.I was excited to test out dwayna but then monk got a very unnecessary buff.rune of air looks nice for roaming.rune of vampirism looks good for zerging.

sanctuary gives barrier to the caster - so you dont have 10k healing to self only to othersdwayna is useless compare to monk unless your build dont have boons proc (but most support class have boons to share)

for Kalla/ Malyx condi long range: I think ICE and Torment is good, Sigil Celerity is optonal for Hard CC trigger, unlucky it has long cool downfor old style DPS Glint / Shiro or Glint / Jalis : leadership is ok . Durability for hybridSigil vision can replace Rolling Mist quite well in swap so you can play more dps in tanky, or use old fashion Sigil strength to boost 25 might within 1-5 sec.

WvW Herald perspective:

Sigils:

Sigil of cleansing change is absolutely massive and has already gone a long way into allowing me to go deeper without risking getting aids-bombed, or worse, immobilized in the wrong direction. A+ change for herald, and probably A+ change for the WvW metagame.

Other sigils remain strong. Air, hydro, energy, leeching, whatever your flavor, it didn't get nerfed. Only one is concentration, so if you had that slotted in to increase your prot duration or something upon swapping sets, it's useless now. Extract and sell to the chronos who panic sold theirs before patch B)

Absorption sigil can be paired with draining on a meme shortbow renegade build, it's not good but it's hilarious to watch your health fill instantly and obtain half the boons in the game when scorchrazoring or tossing Darkrazor into the enemy group.

Runes:

As for runes I still prefer to look at runes that grant some amount of boon duration since Herald has only 8% now.

Leadership got nerfed by 5% but gained an extra condi cleanse, which is good. 5% boon duration isn't big at all and I think we're lucky to still have 25% on it. Still my go-to. Could have been much worse.

Lyssa is objectively a worse version of Leadership.

Durability also got boon duration nerfed by 5% but an increase to the vitality bonus, and the 6th bonus didn't get nerfed at all. I wish this rune would just die to be honest, but it's still going to be popular.

Herald rune still sucks because it only applies the prot... once you use your active glint heal, instead of just the facet itself. Smart design choice to make the herald rune decrease the healing you receive from your biggest healing skill, right?

Surging got a negligible buff of 20% vigor duration, and the duration of the shocking aura lowered by 1s to match what it was in PvP before its deletion. Still a solid choice and still the only good Power/Boon Duration rune for rev, considering...

Pack's bonus 1) only works once and 2) is redundant with herald facets. Hard pass. Also it got deleted in PvP.

The only other boon duration rune worth mentioning is Sanctuary which could allow a rev to stack more zerker gear instead of marauder. The barrier is always going to be nice, even if for a solo roamer it's a bit lacking. This rune isn't going anywhere and I'm sure there will be many cancer comps featuring multiple supports and everyone running this rune. The stats are good. 15% boon duration is the same as durability and surging.

Other potential runes:

Air sounds good on paper, but sadly, it works like Herald rune and only applies the shocking aura once you use your Glint heal. Why would you want to stun someone hitting you when you want to heal? This rune would be good in a vacuum if you time it perfectly with your shiro daggers but that ain't ever happening in a real fight.

On a tangent: It would be a HUGE quality of life change if things were normalized to be like Leadership rune, where you gain the bonus of an elite skill usage by tapping Facet of Chaos (cough EXPOSE DEFENSES IS STILL TRASH) and you gain the bonus of an "on heal" skill by tapping Facet of Light.

Anything that gives a single boon duration increase has to be a useful boon, like might or protection mainly. So stuff like Rune of Strength will still be a good option, but Grove and Earth are subpar for what rev would get out of them.

That said, Rune of Speed could be a meme if you want to roleplay as Sonic the Hedgehog in combat.

I am playing Rune of Hoelbrak atm in Spvp.power rune set-10% condi duration-10% condi damage+10% might duration+10% boon duration

@Justine.6351 said:I am playing Rune of Hoelbrak atm in Spvp.power rune set-10% condi duration-10% condi damage+10% might duration+10% boon duration

Solid choice... Leadership's also in a really good spot since the CR changes made it insanely more useable under pressure.

If you're already running with Rune of Renegade for a Kalla/Mallyx condi build is it worthwhile to switch to Torment?

Best SPvP Rune for Revenant at the moment : Resistance.

Even tho the patch notes are wrong ! @Gaile Gray.6029

(1): +25 Toughness(2): -5% Incoming Condition Duration(3): +50 Toughness(4): -10% Incoming Condition Duration(5): +100 Toughness(6): -10% incoming condition duration; when you activate a signet skill you gain aegis for 8 seconds. (Cooldown: 30s) an Elite Skill you gain 4 Seconds Resistance (Cooldown: 20s)

Combined with Force Facet of Nature you are at 6 Seconds Resistance.Combined with Seeker Amulet (+ Concentraion) + Force of Nature you even gain 8 Seconds Resistance every 20 Seconds !

The greatest Revenant Buff in history !

@wwDefuser.2056 said:Best SPvP Rune for Revenant at the moment : Resistance.

Even tho the patch notes are wrong ! @Gaile Gray.6029

(1): +25 Toughness(2): -5% Incoming Condition Duration(3): +50 Toughness(4): -10% Incoming Condition Duration(5): +100 Toughness(6): -10% incoming condition duration; when you activate a signet skill you gain aegis for 8 seconds. (Cooldown: 30s) an Elite Skill you gain 4 Seconds Resistance (Cooldown: 20s)

Combined with Force of Nature you are at 6 Seconds Resistance.Combined with Seeker Amulet (+ Concentraion) + Force of Nature you even gain 8 Seconds Resistance every 20 Seconds !

The greatest Revenant Buff in history !

Force of Nature?Do you mean Facet of Nature? (dragon)

@wwDefuser.2056 said:Best SPvP Rune for Revenant at the moment : Resistance.

Even tho the patch notes are wrong ! @Gaile Gray.6029

(1): +25 Toughness(2): -5% Incoming Condition Duration(3): +50 Toughness(4): -10% Incoming Condition Duration(5): +100 Toughness(6): -10% incoming condition duration; when you activate a signet skill you gain aegis for 8 seconds. (Cooldown: 30s) an Elite Skill you gain 4 Seconds Resistance (Cooldown: 20s)

Combined with Force of Nature you are at 6 Seconds Resistance.Combined with Seeker Amulet (+ Concentraion) + Force of Nature you even gain 8 Seconds Resistance every 20 Seconds !

The greatest Revenant Buff in history !

No not at all the best. Leadership is still the best rune in pvp, especially now that it clears 3 conditions.

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:Antitoxin runes trigger for allies as well, so classes with frequent condi cleanse access (pulsing particularly) benefit immensely from the set. Like absurd levels. Conversion holo and scrapper come to mind. IMO this is a very unhealthy change.

On a conversion holo it basically doubles the outgoing cleanse, since there are no skills that remove more than 1 condition per pulse. which means hardlight-arena 13►26 group-cleanses, fumigate 25►50 group-cleanses and cleansing field 20►40 group-cleanses. While it's really overpowered in a zerg fight, there are two drawbacks: Previously, offensive (pack) or defensive (durability) runes were often used. The condition damage might be interesting running a grieving dual-damage build, but since you lack the firearms traitline (purity of purpose and anticorrosion plating is needed) there is no real condi damage. So, you loose a lot of sustain or damage in turn for the cleanses. The second drawback is that the only interesting application of this level of cleanses is a zerg fight. The cleanse of a healscrapper is already enough for 10 people. Now you have conversion-holo, that would be enough for 15-20, but with double cleansing.So, the Rune is much less OP as it first sound like...

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:I agree that Altruism will probably still be outshined by Monk as the usage is too niche and pulsing EtD means less energy for PA, which would still be important to use for the resistance uptime. I would probably use them if it automatically triggered every second from EtD and if EtD was instant-cast, but that may make them stronger than intended.Engis have an elite kit "mortar" that can be used and stowed every second. This also triggers the rune. And since it's a core-skill all elites can use it, too. I used it on my healscrapper for some time... one group cleanse every second at the cost of getting their conditions. It also triggers purity of purpose, converting their conditions to boons. So, sound pretty OP... But using it 4 times in a mortar-field got me 45 stacks of burning, so it's not without risks. ^^

@EnderzShadow.2506 said:

Force of Nature?Do you mean Facet of Nature? (dragon)

Yes thx^^ .... *fixed it.

@"phokus.8934" said:

No not at all the best. Leadership is still the best rune in pvp, especially now that it clears 3 conditions.

3 Conditions are of course better than before, but what is really better ? .... negating every condi bomb within 20 Seconds or only remove 3 conditions every 45 seconds ? ( you may convert soft condis aswell and the dmg ones still stay) .... you can effort the Elite-Bonus of Resistance twice the time too.

I tested Resistance runes in quiet a few matches ... the dmg loss vs. "+ all stats" of leadership runes is not worth mentioning, but you have quiet a good matchup vs condi-classes aslong you dont get corrupted. And even if you get corrupted there is still a "-25% Incoming Condition Duration".

@wwDefuser.2056 said:

@EnderzShadow.2506 said:

Force of Nature?Do you mean Facet of Nature? (dragon)

@"phokus.8934" said:

No not at all the best. Leadership is still the best rune in pvp, especially now that it clears 3 conditions.

The dmg loss of the all stats coming from Leadership might be negligible but what about the vitality lost from using both Seeker and Resistance?

The hitpoints with Seeker/Resistance = 17514Hitpoints with Marauder/Leadership= 24070A difference of 6,556 hitpoints. That's good against anyone, power or condi.At least thats how it is in pvp.Maybe you are talking about WvW.

Maybe a compromise of marauder/Resistance would work almost as well.

@wwDefuser.2056 said:

@EnderzShadow.2506 said:

Force of Nature?Do you mean Facet of Nature? (dragon)

@"phokus.8934" said:

No not at all the best. Leadership is still the best rune in pvp, especially now that it clears 3 conditions.

resistance is the NEW Leadership for me