[Suggestions] Axe 2 - direct endurance refund, or faster animation

Edit - decided to use this topic for other suggestions instead of creating separate threads.

Axe 2 is currently a vulnerable melee range long cast animation, pretty much designed to function with the mirage class mechanic by requiring decision making of where to spend dodges, where sometimes you have to spend a dodge to cover it or eat a lot of damage, especially in melee range. Vigour nerfs etc are slowly squeezing dodge access unless pigeonholing into very specific traits/skills (don't mistake longer evade duration for frequency of dodge access), which means less dodges to waste on protecting axe 2.

Two separate suggestions (not to be looked at together):

1. Refund endurance per hit of Axe 2 (eg 5 endurance per successful hit)Directly targets a specific skill on the elite spec weapon preventing exploitation on other weapon sets and traits.Rewards player for successfully hitting a target by refunding part of any dodge spent to protect, which when in such close range often necessitates a dodge.

2. Faster AnimationThey did it with blurred frenzy for a different reason. The animation could be sped up, say by 30%? Obviously not too fast to look stupid - aesthetics are everything and especially for mesmer combat animations otherwise what's the point in playing. So it needs to be a "reasonable" speed, ie not a figure skater on caffeine. This could reduce the vulnerable window during the animation, reducing the need to waste dodges.

I prefer option 1 because I don't like to mess with aesthetics of a skill too much, and mirage is supposed to be elegant, not frantic.

I think it was much more fluid back at PoF launch, before they changed the aftercast.

Something needs to happen with our access to dodge's. Literally every other class in the game save necro has higher vigor uptime as well as a ton of other boons.

The thing with mesmer is, that it gets boons from traits that trigger on % of health or when you are hit(chaos armor for example), so with mesmer you dont really have any access to boons while slb or holo for example can generate boons out of combat with elixir or stances or anything. This isnt a bad thing tho, that you can use other utility instead of taking boon utility, but still, even with the chaos traitline the boons from shaters doesnt worth to use because those are mostly stun and evade and they dont really give any kind of big boons.But as a trade of mesmer has still more surviability options than holo for example, with this i mean that if you go against a champion or something you have a chance with slb or holo but the lot of boons will never be as good as the tankyness that you get from clones or that basically you can range with staff if you are condi, or even if you go full glass with power chrono and kill most of the stuff without being even touched because you get aegis from well and you have a lot of blocks and F4 too.So IMO there is nothing wrong mesmers not having that much boon access as other classes as long as they can kill stuff more quickly as others,This was pure Open World PvE view.

I don't agree, while I'm no fan of the skill I do think it's a skill that stacks a lot of torment on multiple people and should be vulnerable. Skills in general do too much already and power creep does not fix power creep.

I mean just look at how much it already does!

Damage (3x): 441 (1.2)?Cripple x3 (1s): -50% Movement SpeedTorment x3 (4s): 264 Damage, 382 Damage if MovingNumber of Targets: 3Maximum Count: 2Count Recharge: 8sCombo Finisher: WhirlRange: 130

Counts as 4 whirl finishers.

@apharma.3741 said:I don't agree, while I'm no fan of the skill I do think it's a skill that stacks a lot of torment on multiple people and should be vulnerable. Skills in general do too much already and power creep does not fix power creep.

I mean just look at how much it already does!

Damage (3x): 441 (1.2)?Cripple x3 (1s): -50% Movement SpeedTorment x3 (4s): 264 Damage, 382 Damage if MovingNumber of Targets: 3Maximum Count: 2Count Recharge: 8sCombo Finisher: WhirlRange: 130

Counts as 4 whirl finishers.

I would agree with you if for example nomad's endurance was put at 2s and critical infusion unnerfed, as well as elusive mind being redesigned to completely remove exhaustion from the spec, which would be the better way to go.

But otherwise I can't think of any other skill that frequently encourages spending endurance with it in melee range - which in itself is ok and good/interesting design given the mirage mechanic. Let's be honest I like axe 2's design and aesthetic (easily one of my favorite skill animations in game so don't want to mess with it) and how it involves decision making with the dodge - as long as balance isn't done comparing our dodge mechanic with other classes dodge, which I'm sure/hope Anet keep in mind, though most forum complaints about mirage dodge don't. There is a worry of what future balance will bring depending on the mindset used to approach it.

On a related note they have powercrept a number of runes/sigils this patch so I don't quite know what they're going for, with one hand excessively nerfing things and then with the other excessively buffing different things.

@apharma.3741 said:I don't agree, while I'm no fan of the skill I do think it's a skill that stacks a lot of torment on multiple people and should be vulnerable. Skills in general do too much already and power creep does not fix power creep.

So the problem is that you're conflating 'does a lot' with 'does anything well'. Those 2 concepts do not always line up, and it's important to keep them separate.

Let's break down what the skill actually does.

The skill essentially does 6 things: power damage, condition damage, control, movement, whirl finisher, and clone generation. Looking at each one will give us a better idea of how effective the skill is.

Power damage: 1.2 over 3 hits, .4 per hit. This is obviously really low. The power damage this skill does is negligible.

Condition damage: 3 stacks of torment applied over 3 hits. This is also obviously really low. In fact, it's comparable to the autoattack on axe, which is something else to note.

Total damage output: Garbage. In fact, this skill does less damage than simply autoattacking for the time it takes to execute. Using this skill is a dps loss.

Control: 3 seconds of cripple, applied across 3 hits. Minimal control at best. Negligible effect.

Movement: This skill moves you forward slightly faster than walking, but with a precast and aftercast, resulting in no net movement benefit. Additionally, this skill is an animation lock that cannot be steered, and thus the movement of this skill is actually a notable downside.

Whirl finisher: Whirl finishers are reliably unusable. This has a negligible effect.

Clone generation: This skill will conditionally generate a clone after a delay. The clone cannot be manually targeted and only spawns if a target is within a certain range. This is notably less functional than most other clone generation mechanics.

Ok, so let's add it up. This skill does less damage than the autoattack, has a useless finisher, negligible control, poor clone generation, and the enormous downside of putting you into an un-steerable animation locked movement. Yeah, the skill does a lot of things, but they're all bad. The skill is trash through and through.

@Pyroatheist.9031 said:

@apharma.3741 said:I don't agree, while I'm no fan of the skill I do think it's a skill that stacks a lot of torment on multiple people and should be vulnerable. Skills in general do too much already and power creep does not fix power creep.

That doesn't mean it needs more stuff adding onto it which is what the topic is about and what my point is. It already does tons of stuff, whether you think it does it well, poorly or is balanced is inconsequential, it doesn't need yet more adding to it.

@apharma.3741 said:

@Pyroatheist.9031 said:

@apharma.3741 said:I don't agree, while I'm no fan of the skill I do think it's a skill that stacks a lot of torment on multiple people and should be vulnerable. Skills in general do too much already and power creep does not fix power creep.

Doing "tons of stuff" is not a realistic balance concern. A realistic balance concern is how powerful the skill is, how appropriately it interacts with other class mechanics, what sort of counterplay it has, that kind of thing.

This skill is very obviously imbalanced. It's extremely weak, despite the fact that it does indeed do a number of things. One way to fix that would be to add more things, making the skill more valuable to use. Another way would be numerical buffs, making the skill more powerful to use. A last way would be mechanical changes, making the skill more usable through a broader overhaul. Anet has shown willingness to make all 3 of these changes on occasion, and the amount of things the skill already does has no bearing on which of those approaches is necessarily best.

My biggest and only real gripe with Axe 2 is that it sends me flying off the ledges on Cliffside fractal if my target gets taken out. I shouldn't have a skill I am too afraid to use like the staff 2 backwards suicide teleport, the ranger sword backwards suicide leap, or the ranger shortbow backwards suicide leap. Edge awareness would be AMAZING.

Axe 3 is also really good at teleporting me under the bridge at the start of Underground Facility because an enemy is downed a microsecond before I pressed the key or shunting me into a bush in Auric Basin because it decides it wants to kill that mosquito there and not the mordrem. It's a silly and amusing liability in any group content.

Axe 2 does reliable damage, usually pumps out a clone if you do it at point blank range, is great in crowds (which almost guarantees a clone). Two more deception skills (an aoe and a jaunt) and you've got three clones primed to ambush in about two seconds as well as a decent amount of damage ticking away.

I love playing mirage, but axe 2 and axe 3 have both gotten me to parts of the map that I didn't want to be in, either under a bridge or having to walk down a building so I can fall off and respawn. I've ended up inside scenery or under the map twice this week.

All my problems could be solved by me being better at the game and paying attention more, but I choose not to learn from my mistakes and to teleport spam, blindly whirling through the air, wherever that may take me,

@Gulbasaur.1865 said:Axe 2 does reliable damage,

Axe 2 is literally worse than autoattacking.

Hits 3 targets per hit with torment and cripple and usually drops a clone, if it doesn't, go back in for round two. Clones turn into more damage and have a defensive role.

Crippled enemies take longer to get places, which means torment hits harder.

If you want to just autoattack, go for it. It could maybe do with a little buff, but its a clone generation skill so it's never going to be overpowered because of the added utility.

Number 2- 100% faster animation for sure. Been proven that fast attacks wins all the time. Mirage needs this. Espacially after all the nerfs it got for the last year.

@"Gulbasaur.1865" said:Hits 3 targets per hit with torment and cripple and usually drops a clone, if it doesn't, go back in for round two. Clones turn into more damage and have a defensive role.

The fact that you have to say "usually drops a clone" is indicative that the skill is poorly designed. How many other clone skills only sometimes work?

Crippled enemies take longer to get places, which means torment hits harder.

That's not how that works at all.

If you want to just autoattack, go for it. It could maybe do with a little buff, but its a clone generation skill so it's never going to be overpowered because of the added utility.

Firstly, you already have a number of other good ways to get clones; you don't need to rely on this skill for it. Secondly, it's inconsistent even at that. The skill is awful.

Crippled enemies take longer to get places, which means torment hits harder.

That is literally exactly how it works. Torment does more damage on movement. Crippled enemies move slower. Therefore an enemy who takes longer to get to a location takes more damage.

Look, it's not perfect but it's not the worst skill in the universe.

@Gulbasaur.1865 said:

Crippled enemies take longer to get places, which means torment hits harder.

That’s not entirely true. You’re not taking into account duration of cripple and torment. And there are also many more varying factors such as resistance, cleanses, teleports, buffs/hots, etc.

I'm moving from point A to point B. If crippled that takes longer. So the duration of "moving while tormented" will be longer if crippled. Seems to make sense to me.

@"SteepledHat.1345" said:I'm moving from point A to point B. If crippled that takes longer. So the duration of "moving while tormented" will be longer if crippled. Seems to make sense to me.

This isn’t a rails game so there isn't a defined A to B.

And you cannot discount or simply ignore the other game variables.

@phokus.8934 said:

@"SteepledHat.1345" said:I'm moving from point A to point B. If crippled that takes longer. So the duration of "moving while tormented" will be longer if crippled. Seems to make sense to me.

Like what? It's literally the slower you move the more time you're moving the more damage you take. Sure you could not move all the way to B, but if you're going to move a distance D and torment does more damage the longer you're moving if you move to D slower you take more damage. This isn't hard.

I would say the skill was fine when it was released, before the 0.25 recharge.So a revert would do it for me.

@SteepledHat.1345 said:

@phokus.8934 said:

@SteepledHat.1345 said:I'm moving from point A to point B. If crippled that takes longer. So the duration of "moving while tormented" will be longer if crippled. Seems to make sense to me.

Again you’re not even taking into consideration cleanses, resistance, teleports, heals... and also let’s not forget cripple and torment durations.

You’re looking at this in a vacuum and not real world practicality.

You’re thinking that torment is constantly on you and getting crippled. So no it’s not that simple as the slower you go the more damage you take.

consideration cleansesThat's true of all condition damage.resistanceThat's true of all condition damage. No enemies are immune to torment or confusion (or bleeding).teleportsOkay, yes, but you, as a mesmer, have seven teleports at a time (weapon skill, blink, illusory ambush, mirage advance, jaunt x2 or x3) if you want to. Saying that others can do it too is not really an issue. Mesmers, if they want to, can get halfway across the map in sPvP in a few seconds, without the planning ahead that portals involve.healsThat's true of all damage.You’re looking at this in a vacuum and not real world practicality.I'm talking from my experience.let’s not forget cripple and torment durations.Yeah, the cripple duration isn't great, but the torment duration is respectable. Also, it (usually - "usually" is a bit of a negative) drops a clone, and clones that can use ambushes via infinite horizons do more torment and open stronger shatters.

You’re thinking that torment is constantly on you and getting crippled. So no it’s not that simple as the slower you go the more damage you take.No sausage, I'm playing the game. To turn your words back to you, "you cannot discount or simply ignore the other game variables", which you are doing by looking only at the numbers and not at the practical applications. It's a clone generation skill and none of them are superpowered. The autoattack chain for mirage is fairly strong (it stacks torment for a long time), and that's not a bad thing. Yes, it could be stronger (which is, I assume, why it has two charges) but I have never considered it a problem.

@phokus.8934 said:

@SteepledHat.1345 said:

@phokus.8934 said:

@SteepledHat.1345 said:I'm moving from point A to point B. If crippled that takes longer. So the duration of "moving while tormented" will be longer if crippled. Seems to make sense to me.

You're not even arguing the same thing as I am. The more time you spend walking the more damage you take. Sure, you could, in various ways, not walk it. But if you walk more, crippled makes you slower which indirectly buffs torment damage. This is simple stuff.

Ok look, we're talking PvE here based on context. If you want to do damage with axe, you're in melee range. If you're in melee range, the mobs aren't pathing and torment damage won't be getting amped, it doesn't matter how crippled they are.

Capische?

Axe 2 should go directly in the direction your character is facing, not charge towards your target. I have almost no control over it now it's frequently a big issue. Often i simply can't use it because i know i will just kill myself falling from some ledge as result.

It's clunky now, unprecise and while not random feels chaotic. Charge in direction you are facing(maybe even facing camera) would be great and allow me precision and control.

Also, for example, in bigger groups i know exactly where i charge into them which i don't always now where i just tap and waste time hoping i get a good target and certainly not wasting time hand clicking on targets. Other times i have to spend far too long running and positioning myself to use it.