Sanctuary runes ruin WvW — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Sanctuary runes ruin WvW

RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭
edited November 17, 2018 in WvW

run monk runes on healers, sanctuary runes on everyone else. instantly win every single fight as you roll through groups twice your size

this patch gave zergs 32% more sustain (+10% monks, +20% sanctuary, it's multiplicative for 32%), just from a rune swap. This means you can run full zerker builds for every dps, and still come out tankier than your group was before the change. in addition, your bombs will drop half a zerg on every push from the extra damage.

it needs removed because if you aren't running the runes, you lose. way to boost build diversity!

Edit:
Maybe nerfing necro again will help!

Comments

  • @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    instantly win every single fight as you roll through groups twice your size

    WvW players: "zergbusting with lower player count needs to be a thing because its about skill, WvW is ruined because guilds cant fight zergs!"

    Also WvW players: "now we can win against groups twice our size, WvW is ruined because zergbusting is a thing!"

    There is a difference between zergbusting with skill/tactics and just forcing your way through with a broken rune. It won't last long when everyone starts using it.

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 17, 2018

    Yea, that's not zerg busting, that's just slow adaption to the changes. Once everyone adapted to the changes, you will realize zerg busting is still a dream.

    Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
    Henge of Denravi Server
    www.gw2time.com

    --

    Explanations of WvW Structures & Populations Issues

  • aspirine.6852aspirine.6852 Member ✭✭✭

    They just make balanced guild groups ever better, nice logic there Anet.

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    the barrier uptime is crazy as well.

  • @Boredom.3867 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    instantly win every single fight as you roll through groups twice your size

    WvW players: "zergbusting with lower player count needs to be a thing because its about skill, WvW is ruined because guilds cant fight zergs!"

    Also WvW players: "now we can win against groups twice our size, WvW is ruined because zergbusting is a thing!"

    There is a difference between zergbusting with skill/tactics and just forcing your way through with a broken rune. It won't last long when everyone starts using it.

    Plus the bigger group can use it too.

  • @ArchonWing.9480 said:

    @Boredom.3867 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    instantly win every single fight as you roll through groups twice your size

    WvW players: "zergbusting with lower player count needs to be a thing because its about skill, WvW is ruined because guilds cant fight zergs!"

    Also WvW players: "now we can win against groups twice our size, WvW is ruined because zergbusting is a thing!"

    There is a difference between zergbusting with skill/tactics and just forcing your way through with a broken rune. It won't last long when everyone starts using it.

    Plus the bigger group can use it too.

    When two 50m groups collide, you're either at full health with 10k barrier or you drop instantly and are then instantly rested by MI. It's awful

  • aspirine.6852aspirine.6852 Member ✭✭✭

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:

    @Boredom.3867 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    instantly win every single fight as you roll through groups twice your size

    WvW players: "zergbusting with lower player count needs to be a thing because its about skill, WvW is ruined because guilds cant fight zergs!"

    Also WvW players: "now we can win against groups twice our size, WvW is ruined because zergbusting is a thing!"

    There is a difference between zergbusting with skill/tactics and just forcing your way through with a broken rune. It won't last long when everyone starts using it.

    Plus the bigger group can use it too.

    No they wont, it's usually guilds that run cheese sustain builds because they can.

  • @aspirine.6852 said:

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:

    @Boredom.3867 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    instantly win every single fight as you roll through groups twice your size

    WvW players: "zergbusting with lower player count needs to be a thing because its about skill, WvW is ruined because guilds cant fight zergs!"

    Also WvW players: "now we can win against groups twice our size, WvW is ruined because zergbusting is a thing!"

    There is a difference between zergbusting with skill/tactics and just forcing your way through with a broken rune. It won't last long when everyone starts using it.

    Plus the bigger group can use it too.

    No they wont, it's usually guilds that run cheese sustain builds because they can.

    Yea, how dare they not run a 20 man group with full zerk, bunch of kitten

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 17, 2018

    @aspirine.6852 said:

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:

    @Boredom.3867 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    instantly win every single fight as you roll through groups twice your size

    WvW players: "zergbusting with lower player count needs to be a thing because its about skill, WvW is ruined because guilds cant fight zergs!"

    Also WvW players: "now we can win against groups twice our size, WvW is ruined because zergbusting is a thing!"

    There is a difference between zergbusting with skill/tactics and just forcing your way through with a broken rune. It won't last long when everyone starts using it.

    Plus the bigger group can use it too.

    No they wont, it's usually guilds that run cheese sustain builds because they can.

    But they already run "cheese" because they can, wouldn't they also run as a blob because they can?

    Whether or not people actually choose to run fat with the runes is not the point. It's the same reason why the argument defending defending siege turtling because it favors the smaller group is nonsense-- there's no reason why a bigger group can't do that.

  • @ArchonWing.9480 said:

    @aspirine.6852 said:

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:

    @Boredom.3867 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    instantly win every single fight as you roll through groups twice your size

    WvW players: "zergbusting with lower player count needs to be a thing because its about skill, WvW is ruined because guilds cant fight zergs!"

    Also WvW players: "now we can win against groups twice our size, WvW is ruined because zergbusting is a thing!"

    There is a difference between zergbusting with skill/tactics and just forcing your way through with a broken rune. It won't last long when everyone starts using it.

    Plus the bigger group can use it too.

    No they wont, it's usually guilds that run cheese sustain builds because they can.

    But they already run "cheese" because they can, wouldn't they also run as a blob because they can?

    Whether or not people actually choose to run fat with the runes is not the point. It's the same reason why the argument defending defending siege turtling because it favors the smaller group is nonsense-- there's no reason why a bigger group can't do that.

    They will do just that, after last night I know we're swapping over. No point in playing if you aren't running the same, regardless of group size

  • Regardless what you might think, more sustain is better for a late stage game. I thinks people don't understand how at the top for fights guilds a single bomb can end a fight. Literally 1 bomb will decide an entire fight and it turns this game into a W key game mode. No one wants to play that. As far as im concerned, decimate AOE targeting skills by 40% buff single target skills by 40% and keep the sustain buffs going. Gonna tell me a return to a kitten mode is gonna drive off new blood and old blood as well? Maybe so, ded game mode anyway. Might as well make it kitten for new blood.

    1. Would PUGs/randoms bother running such a build knowing they will tag less with less damage?
    2. Would this rune be more attractive to organized guilds or "PUG blobs" that never leave EB?

    _We must secure the existence of our Quaggans and a future for Quaggan children. _

  • @LegoBrave.6147 said:
    Regardless what you might think, more sustain is better for a late stage game. I thinks people don't understand how at the top for fights guilds a single bomb can end a fight. Literally 1 bomb will decide an entire fight and it turns this game into a W key game mode. No one wants to play that. As far as im concerned, decimate AOE targeting skills by 40% buff single target skills by 40% and keep the sustain buffs going. Gonna tell me a return to a kitten mode is gonna drive off new blood and old blood as well? Maybe so, ded game mode anyway. Might as well make it kitten for new blood.

    This rune isn't being used to give 32% more sustain. You change your stats towards pure pve raid builds, and only run sanctuary as your defense. This in effect is just a giant increase in outgoing damage at the cost of no group sustain.

    It isn't making fights longer, it's making whoever runs them do more damage, ending fights faster than before. They completely shut down every other rune option and become a win condition for zerging.

    @sostronk.8167 said:
    1. Would PUGs/randoms bother running such a build knowing they will tag less with less damage?
    2. Would this rune be more attractive to organized guilds or "PUG blobs" that never leave EB?

    1. You alter your build to do more damage, and let the sanctuary runes give you all the sustain you need. Damage dealt only matters outside of a squad, if you're in a squad you get loot just from tagging.

    2. Organized guilds. To be most effective, they require healers running monk runes.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 18, 2018

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    run monk runes on healers, sanctuary runes on everyone else. instantly win every single fight as you roll through groups twice your size

    this patch gave zergs 32% more sustain (+10% monks, +20% sanctuary, it's multiplicative for 32%), just from a rune swap. This means you can run full zerker builds for every dps, and still come out tankier than your group was before the change. in addition, your bombs will drop half a zerg on every push from the extra damage.

    it needs removed because if you aren't running the runes, you lose. way to boost build diversity!

    Edit:
    Maybe nerfing necro again will help!

    Zergs in this game isnt about skill, its about gimmicks and aoe spam capabilities :;) its a game for bad players and casuals at best.
    Expect on next expantion something more stronger with passive aoe than scourge lol.... to make scrubs want to be carried with next gimmick.

    Scourge was a bad desingned class, working as intended, bad players need a alot of these to look good.

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 18, 2018

    I am sure zerg is about skill, just not team skill, more about individual skill. Yea sure, spamming sounds easy but not for newbies.
    Team skill is limited to very few tactic.

    Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
    Henge of Denravi Server
    www.gw2time.com

    --

    Explanations of WvW Structures & Populations Issues

  • Ansau.7326Ansau.7326 Member ✭✭✭

    DPS classes in zergs already run as much offensive as comfortably people can, either marauder, marauder/zerker or full zerker. In reality there is little damage to gain for most people. Also, running Sanctuary runes means losing Strength/Scholar. The damage gained by running full zerker is countered by the loss of damage coming from the runes.
    But more importantly, barriers gained by Sanctuary conflict and are nullified by barriers granted by scourges. As long as you have good Scourges, Sanctuary runes are mostly useless. And in case you have bad Scourges, Sanctuary runes are the least of your worries.

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 18, 2018

    While we're at it, someone tell me about the new monk runes. It's such a pain to get them that I want to know how they were buffed.

    I have enough Koda tokens for some reason, so Sanc runes aren't a problem but just want to check them out cuz if Anet hits the nerf bat, it'll suck. And i really don't want to put effort into gearing anymore, at this point.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ansau.7326 said:
    DPS classes in zergs already run as much offensive as comfortably people can, either marauder, marauder/zerker or full zerker. In reality there is little damage to gain for most people. Also, running Sanctuary runes means losing Strength/Scholar. The damage gained by running full zerker is countered by the loss of damage coming from the runes.
    But more importantly, barriers gained by Sanctuary conflict and are nullified by barriers granted by scourges. As long as you have good Scourges, Sanctuary runes are mostly useless. And in case you have bad Scourges, Sanctuary runes are the least of your worries.

    Finally someone gets it. Difference between full zerk and full marauder is barely visible. You essentially lose 10% damage because you're not using offensive runes. You just get extra sustain because of barriers. Saying that you get 32% damage bonus is just wrong.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @steki.1478 said:
    Saying that you get 32% damage bonus is just wrong.

    if your opponents have 32% more sustain, killing them leads to 32% higher numbers in your damagemeters.

    read this, become a better player now.

  • borgs.6103borgs.6103 Member ✭✭✭

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:
    While we're at it, someone tell me about the new monk runes. It's such a pain to get them that I want to know how they were buffed.

    I have enough Koda tokens for some reason, so Sanc runes aren't a problem but just want to check them out cuz if Anet hits the nerf bat, it'll suck. And i really don't want to put effort into gearing anymore, at this point.

    Used them with my support FB. Basically during clashes, it's permanent +10% outgoing healing.

    Hi.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @steki.1478 said:
    Saying that you get 32% damage bonus is just wrong.

    if your opponents have 32% more sustain, killing them leads to 32% higher numbers in your damagemeters.

    That doesnt mean that people using sanc runes have 32% more damage. 32% isnt even realistic gain in sustain.

  • @steki.1478 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @steki.1478 said:
    Saying that you get 32% damage bonus is just wrong.

    if your opponents have 32% more sustain, killing them leads to 32% higher numbers in your damagemeters.

    That doesnt mean that people using sanc runes have 32% more damage. 32% isnt even realistic gain in sustain.

    Full zerker is a sizeable increase over marauder, and few people run full offensive stats in a zerg anyways. Most guild groups tend to run at least 2.5k armor. Now they don't need to.

    There is not a single reason to run anything other than sanctuary runes for everyone not on a healer and monk runes on healers, the runes are that much stronger than any other options.

    Added bonus, if you're only missing 100 hp and get a 4k heal, you still get a 1k barrier. It's based off of healing incoming, not how much hp is being restored. This makes it a very efficient healing modifier, it can't overheal and won't ever hit the barrier cap on its own.

  • So I guess no patch today to reduce the effectiveness down to 10%, or stop barrier from being stacked even on targets at full hp.

    Gg

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @steki.1478 said:
    Saying that you get 32% damage bonus is just wrong.

    if your opponents have 32% more sustain, killing them leads to 32% higher numbers in your damagemeters.

    That doesnt mean that people using sanc runes have 32% more damage. 32% isnt even realistic gain in sustain.

    Full zerker is a sizeable increase over marauder, and few people run full offensive stats in a zerg anyways. Most guild groups tend to run at least 2.5k armor. Now they don't need to.

    Might want to amend something there. Full zerk is a sizable increase over full marauder. Full zerk gives at least 210 more Power than full marauder, whereas there is only about a 33 power difference between mara/zerk and full zerk.

    Semantics I know, but there are people that will go nuts over that statement.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 20, 2018

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @steki.1478 said:
    Saying that you get 32% damage bonus is just wrong.

    if your opponents have 32% more sustain, killing them leads to 32% higher numbers in your damagemeters.

    That doesnt mean that people using sanc runes have 32% more damage. 32% isnt even realistic gain in sustain.

    Full zerker is a sizeable increase over marauder, and few people run full offensive stats in a zerg anyways. Most guild groups tend to run at least 2.5k armor. Now they don't need to.

    Might want to amend something there. Full zerk is a sizable increase over full marauder. Full zerk gives at least 210 more Power than full marauder, whereas there is only about a 33 power difference between mara/zerk and full zerk.

    Semantics I know, but there are people that will go nuts over that statement.

    Nobody uses full marauder though. Rev is pretty much full zerk anyway. Ele uses mix, preferably just armor, which doesn't make it much of a difference. I guess it's a big deal for warrs and thieves, but warrs don't even do much damage in blobs and thieves arent that common. Scourge just loses a lot of stats to get some damage output, but it still cant compare to dd/weaver/herald dps.

    Basically you're just getting extra sustain. Damage gain is compensated with loss from not using offensive runes. On most builds you even lose damage since you already use a lot of zerk pieces.

  • @steki.1478 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @steki.1478 said:
    Saying that you get 32% damage bonus is just wrong.

    if your opponents have 32% more sustain, killing them leads to 32% higher numbers in your damagemeters.

    That doesnt mean that people using sanc runes have 32% more damage. 32% isnt even realistic gain in sustain.

    Full zerker is a sizeable increase over marauder, and few people run full offensive stats in a zerg anyways. Most guild groups tend to run at least 2.5k armor. Now they don't need to.

    Might want to amend something there. Full zerk is a sizable increase over full marauder. Full zerk gives at least 210 more Power than full marauder, whereas there is only about a 33 power difference between mara/zerk and full zerk.

    Semantics I know, but there are people that will go nuts over that statement.

    Nobody uses full marauder though. Rev is pretty much full zerk anyway. Ele uses mix, preferably just armor, which doesn't make it much of a difference. I guess it's a big deal for warrs and thieves, but warrs don't even do much damage in blobs and thieves arent that common. Scourge just loses a lot of stats to get some damage output, but it still cant compare to dd/weaver/herald dps.

    Basically you're just getting extra sustain. Damage gain is compensated with loss from not using offensive runes. On most builds you even lose damage since you already use a lot of zerk pieces.

    You lose a bit of damage, but sustain goes through the roof. I'm in full berserker on my scourge and I barely even need to dodge so long as I'm near tag. I'm either at full hp+barrier or down

    And if I go down, MI gets me up almost instantly. 10% would be viable, 20% is too strong

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    You lose a bit of damage, but sustain goes through the roof. I'm in full berserker on my scourge and I barely even need to dodge so long as I'm near tag. I'm either at full hp+barrier or down

    And if I go down, MI gets me up almost instantly. 10% would be viable, 20% is too strong

    But to be fair, that accurately describes a lot of DPS specs in WvW. As a Hammer Rev running Zerk + Mara back & trinkets, I'm at 20,000 health running Scholar. While I do have to dodge through bombs, I'm either at 100% behind tag or I'm CC'd and insta-melted. I don't honestly recall too many occasions where I escaped with a few hundred health or so.

    I do know though that I need to spike DPS down before they can dodge roll backwards, so I'm hesitant to consider dropping Scholar for anything else.

  • geist.4126geist.4126 Member ✭✭✭

    I guess the needed nerf would be: nerf Superior Rune of the Defender first.

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 21, 2018

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    instantly win every single fight as you roll through groups twice your size

    WvW players: "zergbusting with lower player count needs to be a thing because its about skill, WvW is ruined because guilds cant fight zergs!"

    Also WvW players: "now we can win against groups twice our size, WvW is ruined because zergbusting is a thing!"

    I think you'll find those comment are from 2 different groups of players...

    Massive zergs of players ruined anything skillful about WvW - Fight guilds and players alike.
    Zerg busters are destroying our groups now - Zerglings.

    As long as one is happy, the other won't be.

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
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  • samo.1054samo.1054 Member ✭✭✭

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    run monk runes on healers, sanctuary runes on everyone else. instantly win every single fight as you roll through groups twice your size

    I'm trying very hard to understand how that is possibly bad, but I can't come up with anything. If large groups are incapable of organizing well enough to beat a group twice smaller, then the smaller, well organized group should be rewarded for their organization and skill.

    People will always find a reason to QQ instead of adapting, improving, overcoming.

  • @samo.1054 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    run monk runes on healers, sanctuary runes on everyone else. instantly win every single fight as you roll through groups twice your size

    I'm trying very hard to understand how that is possibly bad, but I can't come up with anything. If large groups are incapable of organizing well enough to beat a group twice smaller, then the smaller, well organized group should be rewarded for their organization and skill.

    People will always find a reason to QQ instead of adapting, improving, overcoming.

    if the larger group is also running monk/sanctuary, they don't lose fights either. that's the problem, the runes are so good that they make any other option unfeasible

  • Man, you guys would kitten about anything huh.

    Char: Acium
    Guild: Mist Raiders [MR]
    Server: Darkhaven

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Counter sanctuary with vampirism. GG EZ

  • @steki.1478 said:
    Counter sanctuary with vampirism. GG EZ

    Lmao counter a top tier rune that always works with a bad and wacky winmore rune. Vampirism runes have basically existed as long as healing guardians, Sigil of Stamina does pretty much the same thing for a healing guardian, yet sees pretty little use and is certainly not meta-warping by any means, a worse version of this that takes up 6 rune slots instead of 1 sigil slot seems more like a joke than anything.

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • @lodjur.1284 said:

    @steki.1478 said:
    Counter sanctuary with vampirism. GG EZ

    Lmao counter a top tier rune that always works with a bad and wacky winmore rune. Vampirism runes have basically existed as long as healing guardians, Sigil of Stamina does pretty much the same thing for a healing guardian, yet sees pretty little use and is certainly not meta-warping by any means, a worse version of this that takes up 6 rune slots instead of 1 sigil slot seems more like a joke than anything.

    The reason they suggested vamp runes is because they are broken. They still restore hp even when you're defeated. If your group kills a total of 10 people, everyone who's dead comes back fully restored.

    It's a bug anet hasn't fixed yet for some reason, though they sure were quick to nerf scourge

  • Well they did something...

    Superior Rune of Sanctuary: The barrier gained from this rune is now granted by the healer.

    Anyone figure out what that means yet? Are immortal zergs no longer a thing?

  • @Dravis.7681 said:
    Well they did something...

    Superior Rune of Sanctuary: The barrier gained from this rune is now granted by the healer.

    Anyone figure out what that means yet? Are immortal zergs no longer a thing?

    Far as I can tell that changed nothing, maybe there's a patch today that'll explain what's going on?

  • Dediggefedde.4961Dediggefedde.4961 Member ✭✭
    edited November 28, 2018

    The origin of the barrier can be important.
    Scrapper have a trat that barrier granted by them is 15% stronger. So, if you run a healscrapper, the barrier on a healed player with sanctuary runes should be 15% higher as well...
    Barriers scrapper receive are 15% stronger. Bad memory. ^^

    Since there are no other traits or runes that I am aware of that buff outgoing barrier, there shouldn't be another change.

    In principle barrier is granted depending on your healing power, so if the barrier of the rune would scale, I would understand this change. Then it wouldn't be your own healing power, but the healer's healing power that scales the rune. However, since the barrier is a directly percentage of the incoming heal, the barriers origin is only relevant if there is some barrier buff on the healer's side.

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