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  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2020

    @Gop.8713 said:

    And? That doesn't mean they'd finish them so it's besides the point.

    The lost access is the entire point, actually :p

    In short, you are complaining about a theoretical problem that has next to no practical impact on the game. And to fix that problem, you want to introduce a "solution" that has a significant negative practical impact.

    You might want to rethink your priorities.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Etria.3642Etria.3642 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So I skipped about half of the thread since it was giving me a headache, seeing folks offer reasonable suggestions then having them replied to sentence by sentence, removing all logic and coherency.

    I desperately need a tldr. Here is what I'm taking from this:
    Gop states that the armor skin rewards should be removed from the ap reward track because not all ap's in the past are possible to still receive, and almost everyone else is pointing out that eventually the rewards will be achievable?

    The only way in which I can see his/her point being at all valid is under these conditions: the game ceases to award ap, AND he/she currently has every single achievement completed AND he/she was unable to get the points that were in the past.

    If any of these are false(and I'm assuming at least the first one is) then the only problem is the one felt(legitimate) by those who have missed any ap's or other reward. I missed the tournament pvp title last week, because I didn't know about it. I missed all the season 1 things because I didn't yet play the game. I missed several festivals for the same reason. I don't have the special celebration hat. I didn't pay for the deluxe edition and have those neat shinies. Yep, I am missing a lot, and if I dwelt overly long on them I probably would feel glum and miffed and that this is a problem that should be fixed. I am entitled to have a chance at getting all these things I missed!

    But life is life, and there are a lot of other things I've missed out on that I would rather not have. My only granddaughter was born while my daughter was in the Air Force and I didn't have the money to fly out to see them. I didn't get to see them until the little one was 8 months old. I missed her first words, first smile. The visit was only a week, I missed her first steps. I regret these things; they are a problem to me, and it will never be "fixed". I think I can deal with waiting a year to get some missing achievement points.

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    When 2025 and 2030 are the present, we will know, just as we know the present answer now, in 2020 . . .

    I expect a number since you said you can calculate it. If you need to wait until 2025 or 2030 then it means you don't know the limit of achievement points. As they don't really have one. How do you call that which has no limit?

    You can also calculate it. Given other posts of yours I've read I suspect you've already done so. Given your refusal to accept facts, I choose not to calculate it for you as I can only conclude from your refusal that you are simply seeking another fact to ignore, and I am not interested in giving you one. If it is important to you, you are perfectly capable of providing the information you are asking me for . . .

    Without removing the unique rewards, the gap will never be covered

    The gap won't be covered, but the unique rewards will be acquired. No need to actually close that gap if you only want the rewards.

    This is only true once future rewards are removed. That is, once there are no rewards offered to players that have exceeded the max number of ap minus the lost ap . . .

    Now they could add different ways, like the one proposed to increase the daily cap equal to the missing AP, to cover that gap, if that number is important.

    I don' t like this idea precisely bc it makes it all about the number of ap, which I do not see as desirable. But if more ppl like this solution then great, it would also solve the problem . . .

    I don't.

    You do because it's a future problem and not one that exists today. So stop dodging/trolling and give your proof already.

    Stop ignoring the problem and respond to it. If the problem didn't exist, the solution you just posed wouldn't address it lol . . .

    No, it's the access. A player who has access can finish at their leisure, a player without access can never finish . . .

    That's still assuming they'd finish it in the first place if they had access, which, as a fact, is not really true. Access is rather irrelevant here.

    As access is the core of the issue, your inability to see its relevance might be why you are struggling to understand the problem . . .

    I have.

    You haven't so far given a valid reason.

    Have so :p

    @Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:
    As soon as the rewards are removed from the track and enough ap is created to cover the gap, yes. But that is likely years away, if ever. I prefer a more active solution . . .

    I thought 'removing the rewards' was the solution offered. What is this 'more active solution'?

    Our confused fellow player is asserting that as long as ap continues to be introduced, all rewards will eventually be attainable by all players in time. What you quoted above is my response that his point is true, so long as unique rewards are eventually removed and players missing ap are able to catch up to the rewards obtained by players who are not missing ap, which could eventually happen, we don't know. The more active solution would be removing them earlier than at some indefinite time in the future. Like now, for example . . .

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    And? That doesn't mean they'd finish them so it's besides the point.

    The lost access is the entire point, actually :p

    In short, you are complaining about a theoretical problem that has next to no practical impact on the game. And to fix that problem, you want to introduce a "solution" that has a significant negative practical impact.

    You might want to rethink your priorities.

    I gave you the specific and detailed example you requested, and that's the best you can do by way of reply? It's almost like one of us isn't trying . . .

    @Etria.3642 said:
    I desperately need a tldr.

    • Content was lost, that loss is regrettable, and the loss cannot be remedied. I think this is all that can be said that is agreed upon by everyone . . .
    • The problem being complained of here is that the missing ap is preventing most players from advancing as far along the track as they could if that ap was available . . .
    • I pointed out that since we can't repair the loss we could try addressing the consequences of the loss instead, specifically the rewards that are available to those who have the lost ap but not to those that don't . . .
    • I pointed out that the best way to do this is to remove the unique rewards from the track, as the gap can never be closed by the introduction of more ap, it only changes which specific rewards are covered by the gap created by the missing ap. I also pointed out this wasn't a great solution and hoped someone could do better . . .
    • Several posters began to insist that this doesn't really exist, which requires a willful ignorance of the point previous to this one. This willful ignorance is something I have not been able to understand and has created the majority of the less desirable parts of the thread . . .

    I think I can deal with waiting a year to get some missing achievement points.

    You never will though. They will be just as unobtainable in a year as they are today. It's also worth noting that thinking about a problem like this from your personal perspective -- or from the perspective of any individual player -- is never going to be terribly helpful. It's better to consider it in the abstract. Content was lost, it resulted in some ap being lost, which has created this gap we can't close or cover. How do we best address this? Work the problem not the ppl . . .

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:
    You can also calculate it. Given other posts of yours I've read I suspect you've already done so. Given your refusal to accept facts, I choose not to calculate it for you as I can only conclude from your refusal that you are simply seeking another fact to ignore, and I am not interested in giving you one. If it is important to you, you are perfectly capable of providing the information you are asking me for . . .

    So we got another word you don't know the meaning of. Fact doesn't mean what you come up with, it's slightly different. Your inability to answer the question speaks wonders, resorting to recycling, probably just want a thread bump.

    This is only true once future rewards are removed. That is, once there are no rewards offered to players that have exceeded the max number of ap minus the lost ap . . .

    Recycling again. I will answer with what you quoted since it remains the answer:

    The gap won't be covered, but the unique rewards will be acquired. No need to actually close that gap if you only want the rewards.

    I can already see yours. We are in a cycle now, or rather have been for a while.

    I don' t like this idea precisely bc it makes it all about the number of ap

    Removing unique rewards is also all about the number of AP, since the rewards are available (see above)

    As access is the core of the issue, your inability to see its relevance might be why you are struggling to understand the problem . . .

    Everyone has access to a Ferrari, but not many have enough money to actually buy one, but it's there, waiting to be bought by those that do have the money. Access means nothing if it's a proven fact that those without it, wouldn't use it anyway.

    I have.

    You haven't so far given a valid reason.

    Have so :p

    Where? You mean those that were already proven false and never entered a never ending cycle?

  • So, it is believed that ArenaNet will not be aware beforehand when the game will be going into maintenance mode or shutting down? That they won't address the issue at that time? Of course, it would only need be address if it was maintenance mode, of course.

    It's too bad the Devs have never, ever spoken about any missing APs issues. I'm guessing they don't really find it concerning...at this point in time, as no player, missing APs or not, could attain all known rewards.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2020

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:
    As soon as the rewards are removed from the track and enough ap is created to cover the gap, yes. But that is likely years away, if ever. I prefer a more active solution . . .

    I thought 'removing the rewards' was the solution offered. What is this 'more active solution'?

    Our confused fellow player is asserting that as long as ap continues to be introduced, all rewards will eventually be attainable by all players in time. What you quoted above is my response that his point is true, so long as unique rewards are eventually removed and players missing ap are able to catch up to the rewards obtained by players who are not missing ap, which could eventually happen, we don't know. The more active solution would be removing them earlier than at some indefinite time in the future. Like now, for example . . .

    The more active solution now (instead of just stopping creating new uniques when Anet finally decides they will be switching into maintenance mode, which would be the sane choice) would cause everyone close to the top in AP to no longer have any need to pursue APs, because they would never be able to obtain any new unique rewards.
    Notice, that it would not be balanced with creating positive incentives in anyone else (including the theoretical players that have all Aps except for the LS1 ones), because people with lower AP values would still be in the exact situation they already are. After all, it's not like they would be able to gain anything by the change you proposed. They would still not be able to get those unique rewards - not now, not in the future.

    At this moment it seems to me that you are campaigning not to fit some perceived inequality, but against the very idea of APs and AP reward track. If so, you might want to use arguments towards that, not hide it behind "fixing" (but not really) some imaginary problems.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    And? That doesn't mean they'd finish them so it's besides the point.

    The lost access is the entire point, actually :p

    In short, you are complaining about a theoretical problem that has next to no practical impact on the game. And to fix that problem, you want to introduce a "solution" that has a significant negative practical impact.

    You might want to rethink your priorities.

    I gave you the specific and detailed example you requested, and that's the best you can do by way of reply? It's almost like one of us isn't trying . . .

    I do remember asking you to show me a specific player and a specific reward, not a theoretical construction. You only imagine there's a problem, but can't even find a single player this problem applies to. That's because it mainly exists within your own mind - it has next to zero practical impact on reality.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    You can also calculate it. Given other posts of yours I've read I suspect you've already done so. Given your refusal to accept facts, I choose not to calculate it for you as I can only conclude from your refusal that you are simply seeking another fact to ignore, and I am not interested in giving you one. If it is important to you, you are perfectly capable of providing the information you are asking me for . . .

    So we got another word you don't know the meaning of. Fact doesn't mean what you come up with, it's slightly different. Your inability to answer the question speaks wonders, resorting to recycling, probably just want a thread bump.

    What then does your refusal to provide the same information tell us, to your mind . . ?

    This is only true once future rewards are removed. That is, once there are no rewards offered to players that have exceeded the max number of ap minus the lost ap . . .

    Recycling again. I will answer with what you quoted since it remains the answer:

    That's bc the facts haven't changed. I'll keep pointing them out to you for as long as you choose to pretend they aren't there. Again, it costs me nothing . . .

    The gap won't be covered, but the unique rewards will be acquired. No need to actually close that gap if you only want the rewards.

    I can already see yours. We are in a cycle now, or rather have been for a while.

    Yes. I present reality, you deny it, and so on. But it's okay. I have faith that you'll come around. And if I'm wrong, it costs me nothing . . .

    I don' t like this idea precisely bc it makes it all about the number of ap

    Removing unique rewards is also all about the number of AP, since the rewards are available (see above)

    Removing the unique rewards doesn't affect anyone's ap . . .

    As access is the core of the issue, your inability to see its relevance might be why you are struggling to understand the problem . . .

    Everyone has access to a Ferrari, but not many have enough money to actually buy one, but it's there, waiting to be bought by those that do have the money. Access means nothing if it's a proven fact that those without it, wouldn't use it anyway.

    This is a bizarre analogy. There is no evidence that players would avoid the ap if it was available, as ap costs nothing. A more appropriate representation of your position would be that if someone suffocates, it must be bc they didn't want to breathe, as plenty of air is available . . .

    I have.

    You haven't so far given a valid reason.

    Have so :p

    Where? You mean those that were already proven false and never entered a never ending cycle?

    Yes, I have repeatedly pointed out the current costs of the missing ap. You yourself forgot that you were trying to pretend they didn't exist and alluded to them in presenting an alternative solution. Which I certainly applaud you for, the first useful post in the thread in some time . . .

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:
    As soon as the rewards are removed from the track and enough ap is created to cover the gap, yes. But that is likely years away, if ever. I prefer a more active solution . . .

    I thought 'removing the rewards' was the solution offered. What is this 'more active solution'?

    Our confused fellow player is asserting that as long as ap continues to be introduced, all rewards will eventually be attainable by all players in time. What you quoted above is my response that his point is true, so long as unique rewards are eventually removed and players missing ap are able to catch up to the rewards obtained by players who are not missing ap, which could eventually happen, we don't know. The more active solution would be removing them earlier than at some indefinite time in the future. Like now, for example . . .

    The more active solution now (instead of just stopping creating new uniques when Anet finally decides they will be switching into maintenance mode, which would be the sane choice) would cause everyone close to the top in AP to no longer have any need to pursue APs, because they would never be able to obtain any new unique rewards.

    If you agree this solves the problem, I don't see the advantage in delay. I would also be disappointed to learn that players only play to pursue rewards :/

    Notice, that it would not be balanced with creating positive incentives in anyone else (including the theoretical players that have all Aps except for the LS1 ones), because people with lower AP values would still be in the exact situation they already are. After all, it's not like they would be able to gain anything by the change you proposed. They would still not be able to get those unique rewards - not now, not in the future.

    This is just a misunderstanding of the proposed solution. I'm not suggesting that they should pull the rewards that already exist, that would be unnecessarily destructive. I've repeatedly spoken to mitigating the damage of the change, which would ofc include continuing to provide existing rewards and transferring removed rewards to some other avenue, as already discussed . . .

    At this moment it seems to me that you are campaigning not to fit some perceived inequality, but against the very idea of APs and AP reward track. If so, you might want to use arguments towards that, not hide it behind "fixing" (but not really) some imaginary problems.

    No, I like ap, as I've mentioned. I find it a useful guide in exploring new content . . .

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    And? That doesn't mean they'd finish them so it's besides the point.

    The lost access is the entire point, actually :p

    In short, you are complaining about a theoretical problem that has next to no practical impact on the game. And to fix that problem, you want to introduce a "solution" that has a significant negative practical impact.

    You might want to rethink your priorities.

    I gave you the specific and detailed example you requested, and that's the best you can do by way of reply? It's almost like one of us isn't trying . . .

    I do remember asking you to show me a specific player and a specific reward, not a theoretical construction. You only imagine there's a problem, but can't even find a single player this problem applies to. That's because it mainly exists within your own mind - it has next to zero practical impact on reality.

    Oh, I thought you asked bc you wanted to understand the problem, not find another reason to ignore it. You may assume the example is a specific rl player if it is important to you to do so. It may very well be, for all you know . . .

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:
    What then does your refusal to provide the same information tell us, to your mind . . ?

    I already provided the information required, that a limit of achievement points doesn't exist, therefore achievement points are limitless until proven otherwise.

    finite
    /ˈfʌɪnʌɪt/
    adjective
    1.
    limited in size or extent.
    "every computer has a finite amount of memory"

    Since the achievement point total cannot be measured, it has no limit, no size and no extent, therefore it's infinite. For all intends and purposes the game might go on forever, unless of course you can provide solid evidence to the contrary.

    This is a bizarre analogy. There is no evidence that players would avoid the ap if it was available, as ap costs nothing. A more appropriate representation of your position would be that if someone suffocates, it must be bc they didn't want to breathe, as plenty of air is available . . .

    There is lots of evidence to support that players do avoid AP not sure how you cannot see them. Take a look at the achievement point calculations, I'll remind you that 90% of the game's accounts have less than 2870 AP, also the top 1000 accounts on the leaderboards begin at 36437 AP, meaning they are barely affected by the missing AP as they have a few AP to get first, since the current maximum (excluding the ~6k missing AP) is at ~37k. but that's assuming they don't have any of those missing AP in the first place, otherwise they have more AP to get first before being affected.

    You are still assuming that AP that is there will be acquired by players, and the only reason players don't have the missing AP is because it's missing, but it's a fact that's false. Even if that missing AP existed, players wouldn't have them, that's already proven. That ap cost nothing is irrelevant.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2020

    @Gop.8713 said:
    This is a bizarre analogy. There is no evidence that players would avoid the ap if it was available, as ap costs nothing.

    Quite the opposite. there's ton of evidence that many players would not take an effort to pick up a free AP if it was laying in front of them, and a majority would not go too far out of their way in order to get it. Remember, that most players didn't even obtain all of the most easily available Aps - and that a lot of LS1 APs definitely weren't in the "easily obtainable" category.

    The more active solution now (instead of just stopping creating new uniques when Anet finally decides they will be switching into maintenance mode, which would be the sane choice) would cause everyone close to the top in AP to no longer have any need to pursue APs, because they would never be able to obtain any new unique rewards.

    If you agree this solves the problem, I don't see the advantage in delay. I would also be disappointed to learn that players only play to pursue rewards :/

    Well, the delay would let you get away without having to dismantle the whole AP rewards system. Don;t you think that's an advantage enough?

    Notice, that it would not be balanced with creating positive incentives in anyone else (including the theoretical players that have all APs except for the LS1 ones), because people with lower AP values would still be in the exact situation they already are. After all, it's not like they would be able to gain anything by the change you proposed. They would still not be able to get those unique rewards - not now, not in the future.

    This is just a misunderstanding of the proposed solution. I'm not suggesting that they should pull the rewards that already exist, that would be unnecessarily destructive. I've repeatedly spoken to mitigating the damage of the change, which would ofc include continuing to provide existing rewards and transferring removed rewards to some other avenue, as already discussed . . .

    First, you want to remove all the rewards that the players without missing APs cannot currently reach. That, by necessity, would include rewards the players with those APs can reach. Rewards, that some players have already obtained.
    Second, the rewards you want to remove currently are an incentive for many players to pursue APs. If you remove those rewards from AP track, that incentive will be lost. Notice, that this does include both the players with and without the missing historical APs.
    Third, you do not replace that lost incentive with anything else.

    Currently, if you want a hellfire/radiant armor set, or hellfire/radiant backpack, you can work on our APs, and you know that obtaining those are just amatter of time. Even if you don't have the missing historical APs, those rewards are not completely beyond your reach - they will simply require some time to obtain.
    After your "fix", there would be no way to obtain those rewards through AP track. None whatsoever. You want hellfire/radiant backpacks? You won't get it. You want both radiant and hellfire armor sets? Sorry, you can obtain only one.
    (by the way, i am curious, because i have noticed you never actually said anything about it - which rewards specifically you want to remove from AP reward track?)

    Reintroducing those rewards through "some other avenues" is not going to help. After all, someone that was perfectly fine with obtaining them through slowly grinding APs might not be fine with them being obtainable through, for example, SPvP tournament. Well, unless, of course, you intend to take something that was there to reward you for dedication to the game, and requires years of heavy work and just make it easily available for everyone. Yeah, that would definitely work fine [/sarcasm]

    At this moment it seems to me that you are campaigning not to fit some perceived inequality, but against the very idea of APs and AP reward track. If so, you might want to use arguments towards that, not hide it behind "fixing" (but not really) some imaginary problems.

    No, I like ap, as I've mentioned. I find it a useful guide in exploring new content . . .

    APs on their own, maybe. You don;t seem to be very fond of the AP rewards track however. In fact, you seem to go out of your way to destroy the core of that system.

    Oh, I thought you asked bc you wanted to understand the problem, not find another reason to ignore it. You may assume the example is a specific rl player if it is important to you to do so. It may very well be, for all you know . . .

    No, i asked because i wanted to point out to you, that, for something that you claim is a common problem that affects everyone, it's surprisingly hard to find any actual person that truly is affected by it. I mean, you had to create fictional people in order to justify it being a problem.

    It is a problem that exists mainly within your imagination, and only there. there are next to no real players that are truly affected by it.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • I'm going to make a wild guess. And that is the Devs aren't going to 'remove unique rewards' now or any time in the foreseeable future.

    Thus, this 'debate' really means nothing.

    Good luck.

  • Cuks.8241Cuks.8241 Member ✭✭✭

    At this point I would say don't feed the troll. Good job though.

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    What then does your refusal to provide the same information tell us, to your mind . . ?

    I already provided the information required, that a limit of achievement points doesn't exist, therefore achievement points are limitless until proven otherwise.

    finite
    /ˈfʌɪnʌɪt/
    adjective
    1.
    limited in size or extent.
    "every computer has a finite amount of memory"

    Since the achievement point total cannot be measured, it has no limit, no size and no extent, therefore it's infinite. For all intends and purposes the game might go on forever, unless of course you can provide solid evidence to the contrary.

    If this were true, all rewards would be available, and we have established they are not. You recognized this problem when you addressed selectively adding ap back into the game for players who were missing the lost ap, it is incongruous that you refuse to recognize it in any other context . . .

    This is a bizarre analogy. There is no evidence that players would avoid the ap if it was available, as ap costs nothing. A more appropriate representation of your position would be that if someone suffocates, it must be bc they didn't want to breathe, as plenty of air is available . . .

    There is lots of evidence to support that players do avoid AP not sure how you cannot see them. Take a look at the achievement point calculations, I'll remind you that 90% of the game's accounts have less than 2870 AP, also the top 1000 accounts on the leaderboards begin at 36437 AP, meaning they are barely affected by the missing AP as they have a few AP to get first, since the current maximum (excluding the ~6k missing AP) is at ~37k. but that's assuming they don't have any of those missing AP in the first place, otherwise they have more AP to get first before being affected.

    You are still assuming that AP that is there will be acquired by players, and the only reason players don't have the missing AP is because it's missing, but it's a fact that's false. Even if that missing AP existed, players wouldn't have them, that's already proven. That ap cost nothing is irrelevant.

    You're assuming players would not pursue the lost ap, if available, unless they had already acquired all other ap. There is no reason to make that assumption . . .

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    This is a bizarre analogy. There is no evidence that players would avoid the ap if it was available, as ap costs nothing.

    Quite the opposite. there's ton of evidence that many players would not take an effort to pick up a free AP if it was laying in front of them, and a majority would not go too far out of their way in order to get it. Remember, that most players didn't even obtain all of the most easily available Aps - and that a lot of LS1 APs definitely weren't in the "easily obtainable" category.

    And yet somehow, everyone seems to have ap. I just can't figure it . . .

    The more active solution now (instead of just stopping creating new uniques when Anet finally decides they will be switching into maintenance mode, which would be the sane choice) would cause everyone close to the top in AP to no longer have any need to pursue APs, because they would never be able to obtain any new unique rewards.

    If you agree this solves the problem, I don't see the advantage in delay. I would also be disappointed to learn that players only play to pursue rewards :/

    Well, the delay would let you get away without having to dismantle the whole AP rewards system. Don;t you think that's an advantage enough?

    Fortunate then that I choose to mitigate the effects of the minor change to the system that I proposed. It is odd to me that on the one hand you insist that players care so little about ap that they wouldn't 'pick it up if it was laying in front of them' while on the other describe the removal of unique rewards as catastrophic. It's almost as if you have a conclusion you would like to reach, and are searching for reasons to believe it is true . . .

    Notice, that it would not be balanced with creating positive incentives in anyone else (including the theoretical players that have all APs except for the LS1 ones), because people with lower AP values would still be in the exact situation they already are. After all, it's not like they would be able to gain anything by the change you proposed. They would still not be able to get those unique rewards - not now, not in the future.

    This is just a misunderstanding of the proposed solution. I'm not suggesting that they should pull the rewards that already exist, that would be unnecessarily destructive. I've repeatedly spoken to mitigating the damage of the change, which would ofc include continuing to provide existing rewards and transferring removed rewards to some other avenue, as already discussed . . .

    First, you want to remove all the rewards that the players without missing APs cannot currently reach. That, by necessity, would include rewards the players with those APs can reach. Rewards, that some players have already obtained.

    No. Removing those rewards would not improve the the situation and I never suggested that. As already discussed, removing the rewards can happen at any point. Most posters seem to favor removing the rewards after all that have currently been announced/datamined have been unlocked, at the earliest. That seems arbitrary to me. I favor removing everything that hasn't been unlocked rn, which solves the problem sooner . . .

    Second, the rewards you want to remove currently are an incentive for many players to pursue APs. If you remove those rewards from AP track, that incentive will be lost. Notice, that this does include both the players with and without the missing historical APs.

    I would very much like for you to reconcile how players don't care about ap with how now 'many' players care about ap. I am also curious as to why you would dismiss concerns about players missing all the rewards from the lost ap yet defend the few players on the outer fringe of the issue at the top end of the current ap totals. It seems a very specific group of players you are trying to protect, at the expense of everyone else . . .

    Third, you do not replace that lost incentive with anything else.

    I do not, nor do I think it is important to do so. But if you do, feel free to make suggestions. More ideas are better than fewer . . .

    Currently, if you want a hellfire/radiant armor set, or hellfire/radiant backpack, you can work on our APs, and you know that obtaining those are just amatter of time. Even if you don't have the missing historical APs, those rewards are not completely beyond your reach - they will simply require some time to obtain.
    After your "fix", there would be no way to obtain those rewards through AP track. None whatsoever. You want hellfire/radiant backpacks? You won't get it. You want both radiant and hellfire armor sets? Sorry, you can obtain only one.

    This is not true. I have repeated spoken of transferring the rewards to equitably obtainable means. I am curious as to why you choose to ignore that . . .

    (by the way, i am curious, because i have noticed you never actually said anything about it - which rewards specifically you want to remove from AP reward track?)

    As mentioned previously, I think the best option would be to remove all rewards that have not yet been unlocked . . .

    Reintroducing those rewards through "some other avenues" is not going to help.

    So you did know I had suggested that. It makes your position all the more curious, that you would refute it yourself two sentences after you state it . . .

    After all, someone that was perfectly fine with obtaining them through slowly grinding APs might not be fine with them being obtainable through, for example, SPvP tournament. Well, unless, of course, you intend to take something that was there to reward you for dedication to the game, and requires years of heavy work and just make it easily available for everyone. Yeah, that would definitely work fine [/sarcasm]

    And players who are not fine knowing they will always be locked out of roughly a year's worth of rewards, on average, might prefer a more equitable avenue . . .

    At this moment it seems to me that you are campaigning not to fit some perceived inequality, but against the very idea of APs and AP reward track. If so, you might want to use arguments towards that, not hide it behind "fixing" (but not really) some imaginary problems.

    No, I like ap, as I've mentioned. I find it a useful guide in exploring new content . . .

    APs on their own, maybe. You don;t seem to be very fond of the AP rewards track however. In fact, you seem to go out of your way to destroy the core of that system.

    I think the track would be better if it started to repeat, given the inequitable availability of ap. I do not believe that would destroy it. And you selectively believe that no one cares about ap anyway, so what's it to you . . ?

    Oh, I thought you asked bc you wanted to understand the problem, not find another reason to ignore it. You may assume the example is a specific rl player if it is important to you to do so. It may very well be, for all you know . . .

    No, i asked because i wanted to point out to you, that, for something that you claim is a common problem that affects everyone, it's surprisingly hard to find any actual person that truly is affected by it. I mean, you had to create fictional people in order to justify it being a problem.

    It is a problem that exists mainly within your imagination, and only there. there are next to no real players that are truly affected by it.

    The vast majority of players are affected. You have established that you are affected. I know I am affected. I gave you a specific example of an affected player that you have chosen to fictionalize as it cannot fit your narrative, in much the same way that you selectively prioritize ap depending on which players you have decided matter. Your energy would be better spent trying to find a solution . . .

    @Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:
    Thus, this 'debate' really means nothing.

    On the contrary, we started with one solution, which was to do nothing. We now have four proposals, of which I still favor mine but at least options are available. I count that as significant progress . . .

    @Cuks.8241 said:
    At this point I would say don't feed the troll. Good job though.

    I really don't think they're trolling. They've made some reluctant breakthroughs here and there, they're just entrenched in their positions and struggle to adapt when their mistakes are proven . . .

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:
    If this were true, all rewards would be available, and we have established they are not.

    It's quite the opposite of what you are saying, IF we've reached the limit of achievement points then yes some rewards would be unavailable, based on how abruptly the game ends. If the game dies a sudden death, it's quite possible that some rewards will become unavailable, but currently there is no reward that is not available to players, given how the achievement flow hasn't stopped. At least to my knowledge, Episode 3 is bound to bring us more AP.

    You're assuming players would not pursue the lost ap, if available, unless they had already acquired all other ap. There is no reason to make that assumption . . .

    You missed the key word "affected". Let's take a player that has 4.5k AP, they are missing 500 AP to get the 5k reward. Are they affected by the "missing AP"? No, they have another 35k AP to go for. They can't "complain" they can't get the 5k reward because of the "missing AP" when there are so many AP still available to them to get. There is no assumption there and you can see how omitting one word can make such a difference.

    I make no assumptions, I provide evidence, you are the one making the assumptions that if the missing AP existed, players would go for them. When it's a proven fact that they wouldn't.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 20, 2020

    @Gop.8713 said:
    You're assuming players would not pursue the lost ap, if available, unless they had already acquired all other ap. There is no reason to make that assumption . . .

    No, he's assuming that most players would not pursue APs, period. And there's alot of reasons to make that assumptions - like you have been told many times over, most players do not pursue still available APs from other, but similar, sources (like other LS chapters, for example). There's absolutely no reason to assume they would treat LS1 any different if it was available.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Quite the opposite. there's ton of evidence that many players would not take an effort to pick up a free AP if it was laying in front of them, and a majority would not go too far out of their way in order to get it. Remember, that most players didn't even obtain all of the most easily available Aps - and that a lot of LS1 APs definitely weren't in the "easily obtainable" category.

    And yet somehow, everyone seems to have ap. I just can't figure it . . .

    That's the point - most players do not have much AP. Because they either aren't interested, or not willing to put any effort to pursue them. People that pursue AP are less than 10% of the entire playerbase. People that have a lot of APs are around 1% (or much less, depending on what you understand by "a lot") of entire playerbase. People that have a lot of APs, but do not have any APs from LS1? That's just a fraction of that 1%. People that have a lot of APs, are still active , do not have any APs from LS1, and think that is a problem? You can probably count them on both hands.

    If you agree this solves the problem, I don't see the advantage in delay. I would also be disappointed to learn that players only play to pursue rewards :/

    Well, the delay would let you get away without having to dismantle the whole AP rewards system. Don't you think that's an advantage enough?

    Fortunate then that I choose to mitigate the effects of the minor change to the system that I proposed.

    Unfortunate, though, that the "mitigation" you speak of does nothing for the people that care about the system, because it doesn't affect any single thing from your "fix" that would damage it.

    It is odd to me that on the one hand you insist that players care so little about ap that they wouldn't 'pick it up if it was laying in front of them' while on the other describe the removal of unique rewards as catastrophic.

    Different players. Notice, though, that your fix is catastrophic for those that care, but is completely irrelevant for those that do not care. In such a case, for whom that fix is for? For people that would not even notice anything has changed?
    Or do you simply want to make the unique rewards from reward track accessible by other means, because you think access to them is currently too restricted? If so, that is a completely separate discussion, and you should probably be more honest about it.

    It's almost as if you have a conclusion you would like to reach, and are searching for reasons to believe it is true . . .

    I could say the same about you.

    I would very much like for you to reconcile how players don't care about ap with how now 'many' players care about ap. I am also curious as to why you would dismiss concerns about players missing all the rewards from the lost ap yet defend the few players on the outer fringe of the issue at the top end of the current ap totals.

    Because the first group doesn't care about the APs, but the other group does.

    It seems a very specific group of players you are trying to protect, at the expense of everyone else . . .

    Yes, precisely. I am trying to protect players that actually use the system, at the "expense" of players that do not care about it (and so, won't even notice that "expense"). You want to do the exact opposite - help the players that would not care about it, at the expense of those that would care.

    Currently, if you want a hellfire/radiant armor set, or hellfire/radiant backpack, you can work on our APs, and you know that obtaining those are just amatter of time. Even if you don't have the missing historical APs, those rewards are not completely beyond your reach - they will simply require some time to obtain.
    After your "fix", there would be no way to obtain those rewards through AP track. None whatsoever. You want hellfire/radiant backpacks? You won't get it. You want both radiant and hellfire armor sets? Sorry, you can obtain only one.

    This is not true. I have repeated spoken of transferring the rewards to equitably obtainable means. I am curious as to why you choose to ignore that . . .

    First, i said "through AP track". So, if someone pursues APs in order to obtain hellfire armor, and that armor were to be removed from AP reward track, that person would lose that incentive to work on obtaining AP. Moreover, all the work that person has done so far in pursuit of that goal would be lost.

    Second, there are no "equitably obtainable means". "equity" would require for the new system to reward the players for the very same things it is rewarding them now (so, work spent on obtaining APs), and to a similar degree. No such system other than AP track exists. If the new system would offer the items as rewards for something else, the items could no longer be called "equitably obtainable" compared to the current system.

    These are items that are meant for specific group of players, and reward a specific playstyle. You want to take them away from those players, and offer them to some other group of players, rewarding completely different playstyle. That creates a situation where players that are close to obtaining said items now (say, lack only the next chapter's AP to get one) would suddenly find themselves in a situation where to pursue them they'd have to start completely afresh, with all their years of work put into it completely wasted. And with high possibility that the new system would put them at a disadvantage compared to some players that currently never even bothered to work on those rewards at all, but in the new system will find themselves in a preferred position to obtain them.

    Basically, you are just using big words like "equity" to mask the fact that you want to give those rewards to players that didn't work for them. And ignore the work of those that did put a lot of effort into it already. This does not sound to me like "fair" or "just" solution at all.

    (by the way, i am curious, because i have noticed you never actually said anything about it - which rewards specifically you want to remove from AP reward track?)

    As mentioned previously, I think the best option would be to remove all rewards that have not yet been unlocked . . .

    So, basically, you want for people on top of AP leaderboards to have no unique rewards to pursue anymore.

    Reintroducing those rewards through "some other avenues" is not going to help.

    So you did know I had suggested that. It makes your position all the more curious, that you would refute it yourself two sentences after you state it . . .

    Yes, i did. And, as i have explained above, this changes absolutely nothing about what i said before. Reintroducing those rewards through "some other avenues" is not going to minimize the damage removing them from AP track will cause to that system.

    After all, someone that was perfectly fine with obtaining them through slowly grinding APs might not be fine with them being obtainable through, for example, SPvP tournament. Well, unless, of course, you intend to take something that was there to reward you for dedication to the game, and requires years of heavy work and just make it easily available for everyone. Yeah, that would definitely work fine [/sarcasm]

    And players who are not fine knowing they will always be locked out of roughly a year's worth of rewards, on average, might prefer a more equitable avenue . . .

    You mean, they would want the rewards to be obtainable with less effort. Duly noted.

    By the way, why are you not raging about birthday present rewards? After all, someone that started playing 2 years late will get those rewards 2 years later than those that played from the beginning. They will never be able to catch up. So, the very exact situation you claim you want to fix. How is it any different?

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:
    You continue to ignore the present. Deal with the present, or don't, it's not my concern. Your failings are apparent . . .

    The present is irrelevant. The question was the achievement reward availability to all players. As long as the influx of Achievement Points continues then all rewards remain available. Your failings are apparent . . .

    Let's say they would run the story, if the story was available, as they run other stories. If it was available, as the other stories are, they would receive ap from that story.

    They don't run the other stories though. If they did run ALL the stories, they'd have a considerably higher AP total just by the story alone. So try again.
    Further: Season 1 story was very limited and didn't have instances like Season 2 and onward, so it didn't really have story achievements.

  • @hellsqueen.3045 said:

    Achievement Points are cool, they allow you to get a point of recognition for doing something beyond what the regular goal is. EG. Killing a boss without getting hit by certain abilities, etc.
    You are rewarded for doing more than the bare minimum.
    Which is why I cannot agree that it should somehow be linked to loyalty. That's what character birthday's are for.

    You're missing the point of AP. AP exist to keep people playing. Therefore, both longevity and redoing content to do "more than the bare minimum" fall within their design intent.

    Achievements are about rewarding you for going out of your way to do something extra.
    Which is why I cannot understand why doing dailies can reward you so many points per day. I get that it has a cap, but first off that cap is still fairly high and at the end of the day you are still getting 10AP for bare minimum really because you log in, you see some activities and there is a good chance that you were going to do most of those things anyway, maybe just on different maps or whatever.
    It doesn't take much extra out of you to do your dailies.

    Dailies started out as (paraphrasing ANet near launch), "A little extra reward for playing the game regularly." Thus, they fit with the longevity aspect of AP. The cap was put in after the fact. The AP reward track was also put in after the fact.

    ...

    And so what if the LWS1 AP is only a small amount missing, it is still missing when it never should have been and it is part of a bigger picture that LWS1 SHOULD NEVER HAVE MISSING.

    ANet has not reintroduced S1, probably because doing so would take more resources than ANet can commit to it. That means S1 AP are not going to reappear. It's a done deal. Not enough people care about either the story or the AP to make it worth risking the future of the game in a development climate where ANet is already struggling to produce enough content to quiet the gimme more crowd.

    It is a missing player experience and the fact that it is gone is truly disgraceful because now there is only a small amount of the current GW2 population who even know and fully understand the story up to date and have the full player experience. That isn't fair.

    At the time (but still after the fact), the player-base told ANet that S1 was a mistake. ANet was trying to produce a living world concept, which conflicted with the drop-in nature of the game they also promoted. It was an experiment that failed. There were enough players around who were excited over the concept of a living world that the attempt probably seemed worthwhile. Calling that attempt "disgraceful" is at best hyperbole, and at worst an indication that you are taking this way too seriously.

    Show me another game WITH A GENUINE STORY FOCUS that takes away a huge section of that story that the rest of the stories after it are still following that chain of events. Yet we expect players to be okay and content with a story focus game taking away the story.

    What is a "genuine story focus?" Does WoW qualify? If not, what is the difference between WoW and GW2 that means the former does not qualify and the latter does? For a considerable portion of its lifetime, WoW devs acknowledged that only about 5% of the game's players completed raids. And yet, participating in the full WoW story required players to raid.

    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- Santayana

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    You continue to ignore the present. Deal with the present, or don't, it's not my concern. Your failings are apparent . . .

    The present is irrelevant. The question was the achievement reward availability to all players. As long as the influx of Achievement Points continues then all rewards remain available. Your failings are apparent . . .

    The present is where the problem exists and will continue to exist so long as rewards continue to be introduced and the lost ap remains lost, as you acknowledged when you proposed solving it by introducing ap available only to those who were missing the lost ap . . .

    Let's say they would run the story, if the story was available, as they run other stories. If it was available, as the other stories are, they would receive ap from that story.

    They don't run the other stories though.

    The fifty-two (fifty-three today) thousand accounts is actually the smallest number of accounts that have run any of the stories. And these are efficiency numbers, real numbers would be higher, likely by a significant number . . .

    If they did run ALL the stories, they'd have a considerably higher AP total just by the story alone. So try again.
    Further: Season 1 story was very limited and didn't have instances like Season 2 and onward, so it didn't really have story achievements.

    You're assuming again that players will have all ap from all sources, when the reality is most players only gather their ap incidentally as they move along through the content . . .

    I would like to walk back one point though. Upon reflection, I'm not really sure It would be all that cool to have fifty-two thousand fingers . . .

  • Ashen.2907Ashen.2907 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:
    So, it is believed that ArenaNet will not be aware beforehand when the game will be going into maintenance mode or shutting down? That they won't address the issue at that time? Of course, it would only need be address if it was maintenance mode, of course.

    It's too bad the Devs have never, ever spoken about any missing APs issues. I'm guessing they don't really find it concerning...at this point in time, as no player, missing APs or not, could attain all known rewards.

    I think that this point is important. The game seems, to me at least, to be designed so that no player could attain all known rewards. It is not supposed to happen.

    Some players chose to not pursue the (now) missing AP. Depriving people of the results of their decisions is not a good thing IMO.

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:
    So, it is believed that ArenaNet will not be aware beforehand when the game will be going into maintenance mode or shutting down? That they won't address the issue at that time? Of course, it would only need be address if it was maintenance mode, of course.

    It's too bad the Devs have never, ever spoken about any missing APs issues. I'm guessing they don't really find it concerning...at this point in time, as no player, missing APs or not, could attain all known rewards.

    I think that this point is important. The game seems, to me at least, to be designed so that no player could attain all known rewards. It is not supposed to happen.

    Some players chose to not pursue the (now) missing AP. Depriving people of the results of their decisions is not a good thing IMO.

    I know it's a lot to read through at this point, but this has been addressed. The reason this problem is worth trying to solve is that the limited availability of the content is an acknowledged mistake. If it were possible to do so, the content would still be available, so addressing the consequences of that unavailability is appropriate . . .

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:
    The present is where the problem exists and will continue to exist so long as rewards continue to be introduced and the lost ap remains lost, as you acknowledged when you proposed solving it by introducing ap available only to those who were missing the lost ap . . .

    For anyone that thinks the problem exists in the present, they can go here: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Achievement_point_rewards and figure out that more AP is coming in the future.

    Do note that the proposal to increase the daily cap up to the number of missing AP is used to avoid freeloaders. Someone that has reached the daily cap, must have finished a lot of other AP too, therefore they are already completing achievements. The best solution would be to increase the daily cap for players that finished every other achievement first, but I can understand that would have many implementation problems, as this cap would have to be adjusted every time new AP is added to the game. Then remove access to the extra AP, and reinstate it when a player finishes all new AP. It might be way too complicated for such little gain. But increasing the daily cap is a good compromise and it avoids freeloaders. Any kind of solution that moves the rewards somewhere else is like asking for Raid achievements to be completed by killing a Moa in Queensdale. I don't care if you say "but the new way will be really hard too", that's beside the point and impossible to know.

    The fifty-two (fifty-three today) thousand accounts is actually the smallest number of accounts that have run any of the stories. And these are efficiency numbers, real numbers would be higher, likely by a significant number . . .

    Any of the stories and all the stories is completely different. You assume that a player that finished one of the stories would finish the story of S1, but since they haven't finished the -other- stories available to them already, there is little evidence to suggest otherwise. Do keep in mind that a player is in reality blocked from finishing story achievements, blocked by purchase of the respective episode, for all intends and purposes it's the same as missing the AP completely. Especially for the hypothetical player that you made up that does the math and checks how many AP they are missing in the PRESENT.

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    The present is where the problem exists and will continue to exist so long as rewards continue to be introduced and the lost ap remains lost, as you acknowledged when you proposed solving it by introducing ap available only to those who were missing the lost ap . . .

    For anyone that thinks the problem exists in the present, they can go here: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Achievement_point_rewards and figure out that more AP is coming in the future.

    They can also see that more rewards are coming in the future, which will tell them that the additional ap will do nothing to solve the problem, until the rewards stop . . .

    Do note that the proposal to increase the daily cap up to the number of missing AP is used to avoid freeloaders. Someone that has reached the daily cap, must have finished a lot of other AP too, therefore they are already completing achievements. The best solution would be to increase the daily cap for players that finished every other achievement first, but I can understand that would have many implementation problems, as this cap would have to be adjusted every time new AP is added to the game. Then remove access to the extra AP, and reinstate it when a player finishes all new AP. It might be way too complicated for such little gain. But increasing the daily cap is a good compromise and it avoids freeloaders. Any kind of solution that moves the rewards somewhere else is like asking for Raid achievements to be completed by killing a Moa in Queensdale. I don't care if you say "but the new way will be really hard too", that's beside the point and impossible to know.

    Raids suffer from lost content? What is the motivation to move raid rewards? Also, who are these freeloaders you've mentioned? They are new to the discussion . . .

    The fifty-two (fifty-three today) thousand accounts is actually the smallest number of accounts that have run any of the stories. And these are efficiency numbers, real numbers would be higher, likely by a significant number . . .

    Any of the stories and all the stories is completely different. You assume that a player that finished one of the stories would finish the story of S1,

    And you assume that a player with access to LS1 would only choose to do it after every other ap in the game has been acquired.

    but since they haven't finished the -other- stories available to them already, there is little evidence to suggest otherwise.

    You're arguing that none of those fifty-three thousand accounts overlap with the accounts that have finished the other stories? I know mine does, stories are usually the first thing I do. I do not believe I am unique in this regard . . .

    Do keep in mind that a player is in reality blocked from finishing story achievements, blocked by purchase of the respective episode, for all intends and purposes it's the same as missing the AP completely. Especially for the hypothetical player that you made up that does the math and checks how many AP they are missing in the PRESENT.

    You're actually pointing out how accessible those stories are. Up on the gem store rn in fact. In the same place LS1 would be, if anet hadn't made the mistake they did in that story's format . . .

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:
    They can also see that more rewards are coming in the future, which will tell them that the additional ap will do nothing to solve the problem, until the rewards stop . . .

    The additional AP will allow them to earn more rewards, same with all other players.

    Raids suffer from lost content? What is the motivation to move raid rewards? Also, who are these freeloaders you've mentioned? They are new to the discussion . . .

    The freeloaders are those wanting access to rewards without doing the required content to get them. Namely those that will benefit from the removal of the unique achievement rewards and their inclusion in some other type of content.

    And you assume that a player with access to LS1 would only choose to do it after every other ap in the game has been acquired.

    Never assumed that. That's something you came up with and for some reason keep saying.

    You're arguing that none of those fifty-three thousand accounts overlap with the accounts that have finished the other stories? I know mine does, stories are usually the first thing I do. I do not believe I am unique in this regard . . .

    More assumptions. You shouldn't project yourself in your arguments though. Maybe you are indeed unique.

    You're actually pointing out how accessible those stories are.

    Yet they don't finish that story... curious how you believe a player will finish a story that is NOT currently available to them, yet they do not finish a story that you say is accessible to them. Where is your evidence to support that Season 1 missing Story WILL be finished, when there is more than enough to support that more accessible story isn't been finished?

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    They can also see that more rewards are coming in the future, which will tell them that the additional ap will do nothing to solve the problem, until the rewards stop . . .

    The additional AP will allow them to earn more rewards, same with all other players.

    Yes, exactly . . .

    Raids suffer from lost content? What is the motivation to move raid rewards? Also, who are these freeloaders you've mentioned? They are new to the discussion . . .

    The freeloaders are those wanting access to rewards without doing the required content to get them. Namely those that will benefit from the removal of the unique achievement rewards and their inclusion in some other type of content.

    But no such proposal has been made . . .

    And you assume that a player with access to LS1 would only choose to do it after every other ap in the game has been acquired.

    Never assumed that. That's something you came up with and for some reason keep saying.

    I keep repeating that you have said it, yes. You insist that the fact that players have ap available that they have not acquired means the unavailability of the lost content does not affect them. If you are now accepting that the lost ap is affecting those players, great, one less thing . . .

    You're arguing that none of those fifty-three thousand accounts overlap with the accounts that have finished the other stories? I know mine does, stories are usually the first thing I do. I do not believe I am unique in this regard . . .

    More assumptions. You shouldn't project yourself in your arguments though. Maybe you are indeed unique.

    So you are not arguing that? You accept that many of the players who do not currently have access to the lost content would reap at least some of its rewards if it was available. Again, great, we're finally making some progress . . .

    You're actually pointing out how accessible those stories are.

    Yet they don't finish that story... curious how you believe a player will finish a story that is NOT currently available to them, yet they do not finish a story that you say is accessible to them. Where is your evidence to support that Season 1 missing Story WILL be finished, when there is more than enough to support that more accessible story isn't been finished?

    So now you're back to arguing that they would not do the story? Either they would or they wouldn't, pick a lane. If you're arguing they wouldn't, the data doesn't support you, as you noted. If you're arguing that they would, you must acknowledge that they would receive the rewards . . .

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:
    But no such proposal has been made . . .

    You proposed to remove the unique rewards and add them somewhere else?

    I keep repeating that you have said it, yes.

    Didn't say that.

    You insist that the fact that players have ap available that they have not acquired means the unavailability of the lost content does not affect them.

    And this is true. A player to be affected by the missing AP needs to get all the other AP first, or at least most of them.

    If you are now accepting that the lost ap is affecting those players, great, one less thing . . .

    But it doesn't affect them.
    A player might indeed go for Season 1 AP without first finishing all other AP, that doesn't mean they are affected by your so called "problem" of not getting rewards. If they want the rewards, they can go for all the other AP instead. So they aren't affected by your problem of missing rewards due to missing AP. You are for some reason combining the two, but they are completely separate.

    You accept that many of the players who do not currently have access to the lost content would reap at least some of its rewards if it was available.

    No. They would get some of the AP, nothing to do with the rewards. If they want the rewards, there is tons of AP available to them. If they want to see that number going slightly higher, then it's a different story.

    So now you're back to arguing that they would not do the story? Either they would or they wouldn't, pick a lane. If you're arguing they wouldn't, the data doesn't support you, as you noted. If you're arguing that they would, you must acknowledge that they would receive the rewards . . .

    They wouldn't and the data does support that they don't. But if they did, they wouldn't receive most of the rewards simply by finishing the 10 AP of the story. The story has nothing to do with AP rewards.

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    But no such proposal has been made . . .

    You proposed to remove the unique rewards and add them somewhere else?

    I proposed that we remove the unique rewards no one has acquired yet, so that players disadvantaged by erroneously lost content could catch up. I did not suggest anyone be 'given' anything for less than what anyone else had to do. I then pointed out that if those as-yet unlocked rewards were important to ppl, they could be reintroduced into some other, equitable, reward system that everyone would also have to do the same work to acquire . . .

    I keep repeating that you have said it, yes.

    Didn't say that.

    You say it again two sentences down . . .

    You insist that the fact that players have ap available that they have not acquired means the unavailability of the lost content does not affect them.

    And this is true. A player to be affected by the missing AP needs to get all the other AP first, or at least most of them.

    This is not true. Any missing cheeve affects all players who do not have it. Bc if it was available, they could get it. As it is not, they cannot. If your point is that not all of them would choose to participate in the lost content, that is true. But the evidence says the vast majority would . . .

    If you are now accepting that the lost ap is affecting those players, great, one less thing . . .

    But it doesn't affect them.
    A player might indeed go for Season 1 AP without first finishing all other AP, that doesn't mean they are affected by your so called "problem" of not getting rewards. If they want the rewards, they can go for all the other AP instead. So they aren't affected by your problem of missing rewards due to missing AP. You are for some reason combining the two, but they are completely separate.

    They are not. Anyone missing lost content is around half a dozen rewards behind where they would be if they had the ap from that content. If they would have done less than all of the content, they are fewer rewards behind, but if they had done any of the content, they are behind by that much . . .

    You accept that many of the players who do not currently have access to the lost content would reap at least some of its rewards if it was available.

    No. They would get some of the AP, nothing to do with the rewards. If they want the rewards, there is tons of AP available to them. If they want to see that number going slightly higher, then it's a different story.

    AP is how the rewards are unlocked. Missing ap affects how many rewards are unlocked . . .

    So now you're back to arguing that they would not do the story? Either they would or they wouldn't, pick a lane. If you're arguing they wouldn't, the data doesn't support you, as you noted. If you're arguing that they would, you must acknowledge that they would receive the rewards . . .

    They wouldn't and the data does support that they don't. But if they did, they wouldn't receive most of the rewards simply by finishing the 10 AP of the story. The story has nothing to do with AP rewards.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:
    I proposed that we remove the unique rewards no one has acquired yet

    So just four titles? That's your big problem here the 4 missing titles? And the key word is "yet", meaning they will become available sooner or later.

    They are not. Anyone missing lost content is around half a dozen rewards behind where they would be if they had the ap from that content.

    What are you on here? The current maximum is at ~42500 AP, removing the 5800 missing AP means a player that has ALL THE OTHER AP unlocked, will be at 36700, meaning the unique rewards they will be missing are the 39k and the 42k, the 2 backguards. And that assumes a player finished ALL THE OTHER AP. And also that no future AP will be added to allow them to get the 39k and 42k reward in the first place. You said it yourself above, the key word is "yet", which makes removing them pointless in the first place.

    Do you count pinnacle skins as "missing" because everyone has access to them at very low AP counts. It's their choice which one to pick.

    AP is how the rewards are unlocked. Missing ap affects how many rewards are unlocked . . .

    AP is how rewards are unlocked yes. Someone that has 35k AP to go, cannot complain that they are missing 5k AP, get the 35k first and then you can complain all you want.

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    I proposed that we remove the unique rewards no one has acquired yet

    So just four titles? That's your big problem here the 4 missing titles? And the key word is "yet", meaning they will become available sooner or later.

    There's the pinnacle skin choices as well. They are not obtainable through any other means. I take it by your reaction here that you did not have a good understanding of the proposed solution and now seem to consider the unique rewards a much smaller issue? And, as always, the 'yet' only matters if no more rewards are introduced . . .

    They are not. Anyone missing lost content is around half a dozen rewards behind where they would be if they had the ap from that content.

    What are you on here? The current maximum is at ~42500 AP,

    Ty, I've been asking for that number for some time. It helps tremendously . . .

    removing the 5800 missing AP means a player that has ALL THE OTHER AP unlocked, will be at 36700,

    This number is also helpful, ty again . . .

    meaning the unique rewards they will be missing are the 39k and the 42k, the 2 backguards. And that assumes a player finished ALL THE OTHER AP. And also that no future AP will be added to allow them to get the 39k and 42k reward in the first place. You said it yourself above, the key word is "yet", which makes removing them pointless in the first place.

    They would also be missing a title and four weapon skins. And if you change that 36,700 number to any lower number, you will find around six unique rewards covered by the missing ap. This is how it affects everyone that does not have access to the lost content. And, again, the yet only works if future unique rewards are not introduced. If you see that as a solution, introducing the solution now by removing the unique rewards should be desirable. Now that you have provided numbers that indicate both armor sets have been completed, I am even more inclined to believe this is a great time to make the change . . .

    Do you count pinnacle skins as "missing" because everyone has access to them at very low AP counts. It's their choice which one to pick.

    Yes, and you get more choices as you go along. Having six choices is four more than having two . . .

    AP is how the rewards are unlocked. Missing ap affects how many rewards are unlocked . . .

    AP is how rewards are unlocked yes. Someone that has 35k AP to go, cannot complain that they are missing 5k AP, get the 35k first and then you can complain all you want.

    Well, first off, there is no ap that has that requirement. Nowhere is anyone forced to do ap they don't want to do before they can do the ap they do want to do. Second, if you're acknowledging that players who do meet your criteria are affected, you are acknowledging the problem . . .

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:
    And if you change that 36,700 number to any lower number, you will find around six unique rewards covered by the missing ap.

    That assumes a player that has all that AP to acquire but doesn't, will acquire the missing ones. There is zero evidence to support that.

    Yes, and you get more choices as you go along.

    It's highly unlikely, and unreasonable, to have part of a reward acquired in one way, then mid way through change it.

    You will have your answer by the developers once one player reaches 43k. At that point the 45k reward will become viewable. If Arenanet wants to do something about the unique rewards they won't add anything there. I have a feeling that they will, although I'm not sure what. My personal preference would be a radiant/hellfire infusion, to upgrade the looks of the current skins which were created a very long time ago and are missing in quality.

    But I'll postpone responding here until that time comes, it should take 2 episodes at best, maybe 1 depending on how many AP they provide, and what other AP, outside episodes, they add. The Visions of the Past should provide new AP too, and the upcoming early game revamp will bring new AP as well. I can't wait to see that 45k reward!

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:
    I know it's a lot to read through at this point, but this has been addressed. The reason this problem is worth trying to solve is that the limited availability of the content is an acknowledged mistake.

    It's limited availability of story content that is an acknowledged mistake. Not the limited availability of APs from that content. In fact, seeing as Anet has made one achievement no longer obtainable as recently as last month (and didn't bother to address that issue in other content where they could have easily done that - like with reinstated Queen's Pavillon and Gauntlet achievements), we can be quite sure they do not consider that one to be a mistake at all.

    If it were possible to do so, the content would still be available, so addressing the consequences of that unavailability is appropriate . . .

    The only consequence of the admitted mistake is lost access to LS1 story.

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    For anyone that thinks the problem exists in the present, they can go here: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Achievement_point_rewards and figure out that more AP is coming in the future.

    They can also see that more rewards are coming in the future, which will tell them that the additional ap will do nothing to solve the problem, until the rewards stop . . .

    You mean the "problem" of having to work on that reward you want for some time still, instead of getting it "right now, gimme gimme"?

    Also, who are these freeloaders you've mentioned? They are new to the discussion . . .

    "freeloaders" as, every person that in your solution would obtain these rewards you want removed from AP track even though they did **not* work for them. Because that's what your "fix" is all about - taking away rewards from those that worked for them, and giving them to those that didn't.

    Any of the stories and all the stories is completely different. You assume that a player that finished one of the stories would finish the story of S1,

    And you assume that a player with access to LS1 would only choose to do it after every other ap in the game has been acquired.

    No, he assumes that a player would treat LS1 the same way he treats other, similar cases. If someone didn't do achievements for most of LS chapters, why would you think he'd do them for LS1?

    You're assuming again that players will have all ap from all sources, when the reality is most players only gather their ap incidentally as they move along through the content . . .

    Bingo. How many of those APs do you think players might have obtained from all those no longer available sources? Hint: it's nowhere close to the 5900 amount that is being thrown about. Most of those APs weren't directly part of the story, while also requiring a lot of effort and high investment in order to obtain them. So high, that, as far as i know, not even the top leaderboard player has all of them.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2020

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    You proposed to remove the unique rewards and add them somewhere else?

    I proposed that we remove the unique rewards no one has acquired yet, so that players disadvantaged by erroneously lost content could catch up. I did not suggest anyone be 'given' anything for less than what anyone else had to do. I then pointed out that if those as-yet unlocked rewards were important to ppl, they could be reintroduced into some other, equitable, reward system that everyone would also have to do the same work to acquire . . .

    Notice, how some of the players have already put a lot of work into obtaining said rewards, while others didn't put any. Yet you propose to treat them exactly the same. And you call that "equity".
    I mean, in your solution, someone that starts the game today and someone at the top of AP leaderboard would need to put the same amount of effort (starting now) to obtain the items. Which ignores the "small" and "inconsequential" fact, that the latter has already worked on it (and worked very, very hard) for 7 years. Apparently all that work in your eyes is not worth anything.

    This is not true. Any missing cheeve affects all players who do not have it. Bc if it was available, they could get it.

    No, it doesn't affect them if they could get it - only if they would get it. And most would not.

    As it is not, they cannot. If your point is that not all of them would choose to participate in the lost content, that is true. But the evidence says the vast majority would . . .

    On the contrary, the evidence shows that the vast majority wouldn't bother to obtain those lost APs at all. In fact, vast majority that could have obtained it then didn't (hint: the game had around 3-4 million of active players then. And yet, most of them didn't get those achieves).

    If you are now accepting that the lost ap is affecting those players, great, one less thing . . .

    But it doesn't affect them.
    A player might indeed go for Season 1 AP without first finishing all other AP, that doesn't mean they are affected by your so called "problem" of not getting rewards. If they want the rewards, they can go for all the other AP instead. So they aren't affected by your problem of missing rewards due to missing AP. You are for some reason combining the two, but they are completely separate.

    They are not. Anyone missing lost content is around half a dozen rewards behind where they would be if they had the ap from that content.

    No. Anyone missing lost content is as much APs behind as they would have obtained from that content if it would be available, nothing more. For a vast majority of players that would be probably around 100-200 AP behind total from all the no longer available achievements (and even that might be overstating it - most of the APs were not from the story - they were from other things that happened alongside the story, and required well above average investment of time and effort to obtain).
    Don't assume players would obtain all APs from it, or even a large part of it, because that simply isn't true.

    If they would have done less than all of the content, they are fewer rewards behind, but if they had done any of the content, they are behind by that much . . .

    Which would not be very much. Frankly, not even enough for one minor reward chest.

    Again, to reiterate the point you keep missing: At that point in history, the game had around 3-4 million of active players. Only a very small fraction of those bothered to get more than a handful of APs from the LS1 story and surrounding events - even with full knowledge of how those APs won't be available later. Many of the people you want to help come, in fact, from that very group of players that were active then, but still ignored the APs.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    And if you change that 36,700 number to any lower number, you will find around six unique rewards covered by the missing ap.

    That assumes a player that has all that AP to acquire but doesn't, will acquire the missing ones. There is zero evidence to support that.

    No, it just assumes they'll have access to it . . .

    Yes, and you get more choices as you go along.

    It's highly unlikely, and unreasonable, to have part of a reward acquired in one way, then mid way through change it.

    I don't think so . . .

    You will have your answer by the developers once one player reaches 43k. At that point the 45k reward will become viewable. If Arenanet wants to do something about the unique rewards they won't add anything there. I have a feeling that they will, although I'm not sure what. My personal preference would be a radiant/hellfire infusion, to upgrade the looks of the current skins which were created a very long time ago and are missing in quality.

    I would be very surprised if they actually did anything about this problem. I would be less surprised, but still very surprised, if they added a new reward at 45k. I would also be a little disappointed . . .

    But I'll postpone responding here until that time comes, it should take 2 episodes at best, maybe 1 depending on how many AP they provide, and what other AP, outside episodes, they add. The Visions of the Past should provide new AP too, and the upcoming early game revamp will bring new AP as well. I can't wait to see that 45k reward!

    That's 2500 ap away, according to the numbers you provided. I don't feel like we're getting 1,250 new ap per ep, are we? Even with the additional ap in between with festivals and whatnot, that seems ambitious . . .

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    I know it's a lot to read through at this point, but this has been addressed. The reason this problem is worth trying to solve is that the limited availability of the content is an acknowledged mistake.

    It's limited availability of story content that is an acknowledged mistake. Not the limited availability of APs from that content. In fact, seeing as Anet has made one achievement no longer obtainable as recently as last month (and didn't bother to address that issue in other content where they could have easily done that - like with reinstated Queen's Pavillon and Gauntlet achievements), we can be quite sure they do not consider that one to be a mistake at all.

    If it were possible to do so, the content would still be available, so addressing the consequences of that unavailability is appropriate . . .

    The only consequence of the admitted mistake is lost access to LS1 story.

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    For anyone that thinks the problem exists in the present, they can go here: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Achievement_point_rewards and figure out that more AP is coming in the future.

    They can also see that more rewards are coming in the future, which will tell them that the additional ap will do nothing to solve the problem, until the rewards stop . . .

    You mean the "problem" of having to work on that reward you want for some time still, instead of getting it "right now, gimme gimme"?

    The proposed solution does not accelerate the arrival of any rewards. Why would anyone pretend otherwise, absent some other motive . . ?

    Also, who are these freeloaders you've mentioned? They are new to the discussion . . .

    "freeloaders" as, every person that in your solution would obtain these rewards you want removed from AP track even though they did **not* work for them. Because that's what your "fix" is all about - taking away rewards from those that worked for them, and giving them to those that didn't.

    This is a tremendous leap from anything I've said. Pls quote where you obtained this impression so that I may disabuse you of it . . .

    Any of the stories and all the stories is completely different. You assume that a player that finished one of the stories would finish the story of S1,

    And you assume that a player with access to LS1 would only choose to do it after every other ap in the game has been acquired.

    No, he assumes that a player would treat LS1 the same way he treats other, similar cases. If someone didn't do achievements for most of LS chapters, why would you think he'd do them for LS1?

    And if they did, why wouldn't they . . ?

    You're assuming again that players will have all ap from all sources, when the reality is most players only gather their ap incidentally as they move along through the content . . .

    Bingo. How many of those APs do you think players might have obtained from all those no longer available sources?

    More than they have now . . .

    Hint: it's nowhere close to the 5900 amount that is being thrown about. Most of those APs weren't directly part of the story, while also requiring a lot of effort and high investment in order to obtain them. So high, that, as far as i know, not even the top leaderboard player has all of them.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    You proposed to remove the unique rewards and add them somewhere else?

    I proposed that we remove the unique rewards no one has acquired yet, so that players disadvantaged by erroneously lost content could catch up. I did not suggest anyone be 'given' anything for less than what anyone else had to do. I then pointed out that if those as-yet unlocked rewards were important to ppl, they could be reintroduced into some other, equitable, reward system that everyone would also have to do the same work to acquire . . .

    Notice, how some of the players have already put a lot of work into obtaining said rewards, while others didn't put any. Yet you propose to treat them exactly the same. And you call that "equity".

    Where did I say that . . ?

    I mean, in your solution, someone that starts the game today and someone at the top of AP leaderboard would need to put the same amount of effort (starting now) to obtain the items. Which ignores the "small" and "inconsequential" fact, that the latter has already worked on it (and worked very, very hard) for 7 years. Apparently all that work in your eyes is not worth anything.

    No, someone who starts today would go through the same process everyone else went through, without the disadvantage of the lost content . . .

    This is not true. Any missing cheeve affects all players who do not have it. Bc if it was available, they could get it.

    No, it doesn't affect them if they could get it - only if they would get it. And most would not.

    They are affected either way, but if you insist on caring only about those who would, that's fine too, still a larger population than those who had the opportunity . . .

    As it is not, they cannot. If your point is that not all of them would choose to participate in the lost content, that is true. But the evidence says the vast majority would . . .

    On the contrary, the evidence shows that the vast majority wouldn't bother to obtain those lost APs at all. In fact, vast majority that could have obtained it then didn't (hint: the game had around 3-4 million of active players then. And yet, most of them didn't get those achieves).

    But the vast majority got some of those cheeves. It's not an all or nothing proposition . . .

    If you are now accepting that the lost ap is affecting those players, great, one less thing . . .

    But it doesn't affect them.
    A player might indeed go for Season 1 AP without first finishing all other AP, that doesn't mean they are affected by your so called "problem" of not getting rewards. If they want the rewards, they can go for all the other AP instead. So they aren't affected by your problem of missing rewards due to missing AP. You are for some reason combining the two, but they are completely separate.

    They are not. Anyone missing lost content is around half a dozen rewards behind where they would be if they had the ap from that content.

    No. Anyone missing lost content is as much APs behind as they would have obtained from that content if it would be available, nothing more. For a vast majority of players that would be probably around 100-200 AP behind total from all the no longer available achievements (and even that might be overstating it - most of the APs were not from the story - they were from other things that happened alongside the story, and required well above average investment of time and effort to obtain).
    Don't assume players would obtain all APs from it, or even a large part of it, because that simply isn't true.

    Don't select numbers arbitrarily. If you acknowledge players without access to the lost content are disadvantaged, as you do here, that is sufficient cause for a remedy . . .

    If they would have done less than all of the content, they are fewer rewards behind, but if they had done any of the content, they are behind by that much . . .

    Which would not be very much. Frankly, not even enough for one minor reward chest.

    There is no way to know the severity of each player's injury. Best to just find a solution that addresses everyone equitably . . .

    Again, to reiterate the point you keep missing: At that point in history, the game had around 3-4 million of active players. Only a very small fraction of those bothered to get more than a handful of APs from the LS1 story and surrounding events - even with full knowledge of how those APs won't be available later. Many of the people you want to help come, in fact, from that very group of players that were active then, but still ignored the APs.

    So you acknowledge that players were damaged and need help. Great. Let's find a remedy . . .

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2020

    @Gop.8713 said:
    That's 2500 ap away, according to the numbers you provided. I don't feel like we're getting 1,250 new ap per ep, are we? Even with the additional ap in between with festivals and whatnot, that seems ambitious . . .

    A player that has above 42.5k AP will be able to see the 43k, 43.5k, 44k, 44.5k and 45k reward chests so I was a bit wrong, they don't need to reach 43k to see the 45k reward, 42.5k is enough. The top player at the moment has 41881, which means they'll need to acquire 619 more AP to see that reward. So based on how many they are missing, it's about 2 to 3 episodes but Visions of the Past should provide achievements and that's not an episode. The starting game revamp will provide some, there is Super Adventure Box coming back in April too so I think at about May (??? Start game revamp + Visions of the Past + Episode 3 + Super Adventure Box + Episode 4 ???) the top player will be able to hover their mouse over the 45k reward chest and see what's coming.

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    That's 2500 ap away, according to the numbers you provided. I don't feel like we're getting 1,250 new ap per ep, are we? Even with the additional ap in between with festivals and whatnot, that seems ambitious . . .

    A player that has above 42.5k AP will be able to see the 43k, 43.5k, 44k, 44.5k and 45k reward chests so I was a bit wrong, they don't need to reach 43k to see the 45k reward, 42.5k is enough. The top player at the moment has 41881, which means they'll need to acquire 619 more AP to see that reward. So based on how many they are missing, it's about 2 to 3 episodes but Visions of the Past should provide achievements and that's not an episode. The starting game revamp will provide some, there is Super Adventure Box coming back in April too so I think at about May (??? Start game revamp + Visions of the Past + Episode 3 + Super Adventure Box + Episode 4 ???) the top player will be able to hover their mouse over the 45k reward chest and see what's coming.

    So the second back is not yet attainable. Generally, ap rewards have been datamined long before they were viewable in the available portion of the ap track on the hero panel. If they choose to introduce some additional reward at 45k, I doubt we would have to wait for a player to be able to view it in game before we could see it . . .

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm sitting at just over 38k and my wife is a few hundred points higher than I am. I do agree that not having LS 1 story is a disadvantage. There are other retired achievements as well. > @Daddicus.6128 said:

    I was very sad when I learned that nobody has attained a full set (including back item) of radiant (or hellfire) armor. I thought I just didn't play enough (although, one would think averaging almost 5 hours a day for the life of the game SHOULD be enough).

    Apparently, ANet intended this game to live 10 years or more, because STILL nobody has made it to 39,000.

    I still play, but I've lost all hope of every getting my goal of full radiant armor. If the gods of the game can't do it, what hope have I?

    I'd definitely doable. My wife is approaching 39k right now and I've broken 38k, so it can happen, particularly if you have the Seaosn 1 stuff done. Since I don't do raid achievements, that's one other thing I don't have. I do however have some PvP and WvW achievements.

    It's a long term goal. It's always been a long term goal. I'll definitely get to the back piece at least, and I'm by no means a "god of the game". I guess the question is how much of your life do you really want to devote to getting achievements.

    I do think it sucks that Season 1 isn't available anymore for new players, though. Also 500 of my points come from doing content in Guild Wars 1 (which you can still get but it's a slog).

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    That's 2500 ap away, according to the numbers you provided. I don't feel like we're getting 1,250 new ap per ep, are we? Even with the additional ap in between with festivals and whatnot, that seems ambitious . . .

    A player that has above 42.5k AP will be able to see the 43k, 43.5k, 44k, 44.5k and 45k reward chests so I was a bit wrong, they don't need to reach 43k to see the 45k reward, 42.5k is enough. The top player at the moment has 41881, which means they'll need to acquire 619 more AP to see that reward. So based on how many they are missing, it's about 2 to 3 episodes but Visions of the Past should provide achievements and that's not an episode. The starting game revamp will provide some, there is Super Adventure Box coming back in April too so I think at about May (??? Start game revamp + Visions of the Past + Episode 3 + Super Adventure Box + Episode 4 ???) the top player will be able to hover their mouse over the 45k reward chest and see what's coming.

    So the second back is not yet attainable. Generally, ap rewards have been datamined long before they were viewable in the available portion of the ap track on the hero panel. If they choose to introduce some additional reward at 45k, I doubt we would have to wait for a player to be able to view it in game before we could see it . . .

    The first EU player to get to 39k and unlock the first backguard did so in January 10, 2019. The actual backguard skins were added to the game in November 10, 2015... so it took the top player 3 years and 2 months to unlock the first one. I think they learned their lesson and will reveal the next step when at least one player is close to seeing it.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    You mean the "problem" of having to work on that reward you want for some time still, instead of getting it "right now, gimme gimme"?

    The proposed solution does not accelerate the arrival of any rewards. Why would anyone pretend otherwise, absent some other motive . . ?

    It switches the mode of acquisition away from AP track to something else. What exactly that "something else" should be to not decrease the time most players would be able to obtain those rewards, seeing as most players are still like 7 years of hard work away from the backpacks?

    Also, who are these freeloaders you've mentioned? They are new to the discussion . . .

    "freeloaders" as, every person that in your solution would obtain these rewards you want removed from AP track even though they did **not* work for them. Because that's what your "fix" is all about - taking away rewards from those that worked for them, and giving them to those that didn't.

    This is a tremendous leap from anything I've said. Pls quote where you obtained this impression so that I may disabuse you of it . . .

    This is a direct consequence of your fix. Basically, you want to remove the rewards from AP track - this means, any work someone put into reward track would no longer count for obtaining them. That's obviously very bad for those that are already very close to getting them - their 7 years of hard work would go to waste. Consequently, that's also a very good news for many people that did not work on their APs for the last 7 years, because they would now be able to obtain those rewards without that effort.
    We have a group of people that worked hard for those rewards. We also have a group of people that didn't bother to put even the slightest effort into it so far. Your "fix" makes both groups equal.
    How else do you think i can interpret your suggestion as not the intention of taking away rewards from those that worked for them, and offering help in getting them to those that didn't?

    Any of the stories and all the stories is completely different. You assume that a player that finished one of the stories would finish the story of S1,

    And you assume that a player with access to LS1 would only choose to do it after every other ap in the game has been acquired.

    No, he assumes that a player would treat LS1 the same way he treats other, similar cases. If someone didn't do achievements for most of LS chapters, why would you think he'd do them for LS1?

    And if they did, why wouldn't they . . ?

    If they did, then yes, they probably would have done the same for LS1, but that's a tiny minority of all players. Very tiny minority.

    You're assuming again that players will have all ap from all sources, when the reality is most players only gather their ap incidentally as they move along through the content . . .

    Bingo. How many of those APs do you think players might have obtained from all those no longer available sources?

    More than they have now . . .

    Yes, but would those 50 Ap more matter?

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    You proposed to remove the unique rewards and add them somewhere else?

    I proposed that we remove the unique rewards no one has acquired yet, so that players disadvantaged by erroneously lost content could catch up. I did not suggest anyone be 'given' anything for less than what anyone else had to do. I then pointed out that if those as-yet unlocked rewards were important to ppl, they could be reintroduced into some other, equitable, reward system that everyone would also have to do the same work to acquire . . .

    Notice, how some of the players have already put a lot of work into obtaining said rewards, while others didn't put any. Yet you propose to treat them exactly the same. And you call that "equity".

    Where did I say that . . ?

    Where you said that these rewards "could be reintroduced into some other, equitable, reward system that everyone would also have to do the same work to acquire"
    Remember, that this new system would not count all the past work (because if it did it would have to count all the work put into LS1, and other now missing content, and then we'd be back to point zero).

    I mean, in your solution, someone that starts the game today and someone at the top of AP leaderboard would need to put the same amount of effort (starting now) to obtain the items. Which ignores the "small" and "inconsequential" fact, that the latter has already worked on it (and worked very, very hard) for 7 years. Apparently all that work in your eyes is not worth anything.

    No, someone who starts today would go through the same process everyone else went through, without the disadvantage of the lost content . . .

    But "everyone else" went through the process of obtaining achievements, some of whose came from that lost content. And you specifically want to disassociate these rewards from that system.
    So, how exactly are you going to achieve your goal without running into the problem i have pointed out? Without creating a completely new system, by the way, becaus you already said that your "fix" is supposed to be easy and cheap, and creating a new rewards system would be anything but that.
    So, what of the currently existing systems are you going to use for those removed rewards?

    This is not true. Any missing cheeve affects all players who do not have it. Bc if it was available, they could get it.

    No, it doesn't affect them if they could get it - only if they would get it. And most would not.

    They are affected either way, but if you insist on caring only about those who would, that's fine too, still a larger population than those who had the opportunity . . .

    The population of the game at that time was around 4 million players. That's how many players "had the opportunity". The amount of players that would go for anything above the easiest of the missing achieves (of whose there wasn't many) is far, far smaller. Seriously, the whole population of the game now likely is below 500k, and of those the number of people that do achieves to the point where it actually matter is a small fraction of that.
    So, no, you are factually wrong here.

    As it is not, they cannot. If your point is that not all of them would choose to participate in the lost content, that is true. But the evidence says the vast majority would . . .

    On the contrary, the evidence shows that the vast majority wouldn't bother to obtain those lost APs at all. In fact, vast majority that could have obtained it then didn't (hint: the game had around 3-4 million of active players then. And yet, most of them didn't get those achieves).

    But the vast majority got some of those cheeves. It's not an all or nothing proposition . . .

    The vast majority got maybe 100 AP or less out of those 5900. Why do you think that the situation would be different now? Especially seeing, as most of the people you're talking about are the very same people.

    Don't select numbers arbitrarily. If you acknowledge players without access to the lost content are disadvantaged, as you do here, that is sufficient cause for a remedy . . .

    What i don't acknowledge is that they are disadvantaged enough to even think about implementing your solution. Especially considering how bad that solution is.

    If they would have done less than all of the content, they are fewer rewards behind, but if they had done any of the content, they are behind by that much . . .

    Which would not be very much. Frankly, not even enough for one minor reward chest.

    There is no way to know the severity of each player's injury. Best to just find a solution that addresses everyone equitably . . .

    Your "solution" does not address everyone equitably. It doesn;t affect a huge majority of players, helps some a little bit, helps others more (but not in a way you think it does - specifically, it opens a way for some to get rewards even though they never bothered to put any effort into obtaining them), and hurts others.

    Again, to reiterate the point you keep missing: At that point in history, the game had around 3-4 million of active players. Only a very small fraction of those bothered to get more than a handful of APs from the LS1 story and surrounding events - even with full knowledge of how those APs won't be available later. Many of the people you want to help come, in fact, from that very group of players that were active then, but still ignored the APs.

    So you acknowledge that players were damaged and need help. Great. Let's find a remedy . . .

    No. I acknowledged that most players then didn't want to put an effort into obtaining those APs. How did you got from that to "they got damaged and need help" i have no idea.
    And as for the remedy... if you want to find one, go ahead, So far you haven't found any that might actually work and do not cause bigger problems on its own however. Well, unless you're like that one american general that once said that "there's no problem that cannot be solved by way of carpet bombing".

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    You mean the "problem" of having to work on that reward you want for some time still, instead of getting it "right now, gimme gimme"?

    The proposed solution does not accelerate the arrival of any rewards. Why would anyone pretend otherwise, absent some other motive . . ?

    It switches the mode of acquisition away from AP track to something else. What exactly that "something else" should be to not decrease the time most players would be able to obtain those rewards, seeing as most players are still like 7 years of hard work away from the backpacks?

    Nor would it . . .

    Also, who are these freeloaders you've mentioned? They are new to the discussion . . .

    "freeloaders" as, every person that in your solution would obtain these rewards you want removed from AP track even though they did **not* work for them. Because that's what your "fix" is all about - taking away rewards from those that worked for them, and giving them to those that didn't.

    This is a tremendous leap from anything I've said. Pls quote where you obtained this impression so that I may disabuse you of it . . .

    This is a direct consequence of your fix. Basically, you want to remove the rewards from AP track - this means, any work someone put into reward track would no longer count for obtaining them. That's obviously very bad for those that are already very close to getting them - their 7 years of hard work would go to waste. Consequently, that's also a very good news for many people that did not work on their APs for the last 7 years, because they would now be able to obtain those rewards without that effort.
    We have a group of people that worked hard for those rewards. We also have a group of people that didn't bother to put even the slightest effort into it so far. Your "fix" makes both groups equal.

    no . . .

    How else do you think i can interpret your suggestion as not the intention of taking away rewards from those that worked for them, and offering help in getting them to those that didn't?

    by taking it as it is stated, rather than how you have twisted it . . .

    Any of the stories and all the stories is completely different. You assume that a player that finished one of the stories would finish the story of S1,

    And you assume that a player with access to LS1 would only choose to do it after every other ap in the game has been acquired.

    No, he assumes that a player would treat LS1 the same way he treats other, similar cases. If someone didn't do achievements for most of LS chapters, why would you think he'd do them for LS1?

    And if they did, why wouldn't they . . ?

    If they did, then yes, they probably would have done the same for LS1, but that's a tiny minority of all players. Very tiny minority.

    You're assuming again that players will have all ap from all sources, when the reality is most players only gather their ap incidentally as they move along through the content . . .

    Bingo. How many of those APs do you think players might have obtained from all those no longer available sources?

    More than they have now . . .

    Yes, but would those 50 Ap more matter?

    Yes . . .

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    You proposed to remove the unique rewards and add them somewhere else?

    I proposed that we remove the unique rewards no one has acquired yet, so that players disadvantaged by erroneously lost content could catch up. I did not suggest anyone be 'given' anything for less than what anyone else had to do. I then pointed out that if those as-yet unlocked rewards were important to ppl, they could be reintroduced into some other, equitable, reward system that everyone would also have to do the same work to acquire . . .

    Notice, how some of the players have already put a lot of work into obtaining said rewards, while others didn't put any. Yet you propose to treat them exactly the same. And you call that "equity".

    Where did I say that . . ?

    Where you said that these rewards "could be reintroduced into some other, equitable, reward system that everyone would also have to do the same work to acquire"
    Remember, that this new system would not count all the past work (because if it did it would have to count all the work put into LS1, and other now missing content, and then we'd be back to point zero).

    Why do you believe this? We could easily devise a solution that accounts for the existing ap track while accounting for the lost content. Removed rewards could be barred until existing rewards are acquired, for example. I'm not really sure how it could work otherwise, as players would be unlocking rewards farther along the track than they'd already accomplished . . .

    I mean, in your solution, someone that starts the game today and someone at the top of AP leaderboard would need to put the same amount of effort (starting now) to obtain the items. Which ignores the "small" and "inconsequential" fact, that the latter has already worked on it (and worked very, very hard) for 7 years. Apparently all that work in your eyes is not worth anything.

    No, someone who starts today would go through the same process everyone else went through, without the disadvantage of the lost content . . .

    But "everyone else" went through the process of obtaining achievements, some of whose came from that lost content. And you specifically want to disassociate these rewards from that system.

    Yes, bc that lost content is lost. Unfairly disadvantaging the vast majority of players . . .

    So, how exactly are you going to achieve your goal without running into the problem i have pointed out? Without creating a completely new system, by the way, becaus you already said that your "fix" is supposed to be easy and cheap, and creating a new rewards system would be anything but that.
    So, what of the currently existing systems are you going to use for those removed rewards?

    I've already suggested birthday rewards, as loyalty rewards are something other posters expressed an interest in. Prior to that I would have preferred rewards directly tied to future releases, similar to meta rewards now . . .

    This is not true. Any missing cheeve affects all players who do not have it. Bc if it was available, they could get it.

    No, it doesn't affect them if they could get it - only if they would get it. And most would not.

    They are affected either way, but if you insist on caring only about those who would, that's fine too, still a larger population than those who had the opportunity . . .

    The population of the game at that time was around 4 million players. That's how many players "had the opportunity". The amount of players that would go for anything above the easiest of the missing achieves (of whose there wasn't many) is far, far smaller. Seriously, the whole population of the game now likely is below 500k, and of those the number of people that do achieves to the point where it actually matter is a small fraction of that.
    So, no, you are factually wrong here.

    So you acknowledge that players have been harmed, you just don't care about them bc there aren't more of them . . .

    As it is not, they cannot. If your point is that not all of them would choose to participate in the lost content, that is true. But the evidence says the vast majority would . . .

    On the contrary, the evidence shows that the vast majority wouldn't bother to obtain those lost APs at all. In fact, vast majority that could have obtained it then didn't (hint: the game had around 3-4 million of active players then. And yet, most of them didn't get those achieves).

    But the vast majority got some of those cheeves. It's not an all or nothing proposition . . .

    The vast majority got maybe 100 AP or less out of those 5900. Why do you think that the situation would be different now? Especially seeing, as most of the people you're talking about are the very same people.

    You just claimed the player population has been reduced threefold, but most of the players now playing were playing seven years ago? That would be an unfortunate reality, if it were true . . .

    Don't select numbers arbitrarily. If you acknowledge players without access to the lost content are disadvantaged, as you do here, that is sufficient cause for a remedy . . .

    What i don't acknowledge is that they are disadvantaged enough to even think about implementing your solution. Especially considering how bad that solution is.

    While I feel your apathy towards the affected players and your willful ignorance of the proposed solution is at fault . . .

    If they would have done less than all of the content, they are fewer rewards behind, but if they had done any of the content, they are behind by that much . . .

    Which would not be very much. Frankly, not even enough for one minor reward chest.

    There is no way to know the severity of each player's injury. Best to just find a solution that addresses everyone equitably . . .

    Your "solution" does not address everyone equitably. It doesn;t affect a huge majority of players, helps some a little bit, helps others more (but not in a way you think it does - specifically, it opens a way for some to get rewards even though they never bothered to put any effort into obtaining them), and hurts others.

    It really does. But if you feel it doesn't, do better . . .

    Again, to reiterate the point you keep missing: At that point in history, the game had around 3-4 million of active players. Only a very small fraction of those bothered to get more than a handful of APs from the LS1 story and surrounding events - even with full knowledge of how those APs won't be available later. Many of the people you want to help come, in fact, from that very group of players that were active then, but still ignored the APs.

    So you acknowledge that players were damaged and need help. Great. Let's find a remedy . . .

    No. I acknowledged that most players then didn't want to put an effort into obtaining those APs. How did you got from that to "they got damaged and need help" i have no idea.

    If 'most' players didn't, some did. That would remain true after the content was lost . . .

    And as for the remedy... if you want to find one, go ahead, So far you haven't found any that might actually work and do not cause bigger problems on its own however. Well, unless you're like that one american general that once said that "there's no problem that cannot be solved by way of carpet bombing".

    I've created a solution with very few negative effects that completely solves the existing problem. Very few players would even notice the transition. It's delightful in every respect . . .

  • xan.8936xan.8936 Member ✭✭

    @TheQuickFox.3826 said:
    We REALLY need a solution for all those players who missed Living World season 1 and its achievements.

    Also, I would still love to see ArenaNet's Long-term plans for achievement rewards. I keep wondering for instance what the path is to 60,000, if there ultimately will be more rewards for achievement ranks.

    I also wonder why the recent expansion and living world releases seem to be a bit lacking in AP rewards. Especailly when you compare it to the amount of AP in LW Season 1 and 2 as well as temporary festivals. Players who miss the festivals really will get a hard time to reach the upper levels, as well as players who missed Season 1.

    I agree with this and I have been playing since launch and have all the living story season 1 achievements completed. I had fun getting those achievements and would not mind at all if Arena Net retroactively gave players unattainable points some how

  • tl;dr Sorry if it's already been posted.

    If a person completed all AP quests to date (minus the Daily Achievements), what is the max number?

    Is the 60K there to allow for future Achievements?

    I do wish the skins (weapons or armor) would come with every 500 AP earned.

    Ask a child a question and you'll get a childish answer.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2020

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    It switches the mode of acquisition away from AP track to something else. What exactly that "something else" should be to not decrease the time most players would be able to obtain those rewards, seeing as most players are still like 7 years of hard work away from the backpacks?

    Nor would it . . .

    Please, do tell me how it would not do it. Specifics, please, not "it would not do it because it would not do it". Without that part your "fix" is glaringly incomplete and definitely not ready to be introduced as a serious suggestion.

    We have a group of people that worked hard for those rewards. We also have a group of people that didn't bother to put even the slightest effort into it so far. Your "fix" makes both groups equal.

    no . . .

    Again, how it doesn't do that?

    How else do you think i can interpret your suggestion as not the intention of taking away rewards from those that worked for them, and offering help in getting them to those that didn't?

    by taking it as it is stated, rather than how you have twisted it . . .

    You have stated nothing about that part of your suggestion beyond some handwaving and claiming that it will magically work somehow - but in a way you are unable to describe.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    You proposed to remove the unique rewards and add them somewhere else?

    I proposed that we remove the unique rewards no one has acquired yet, so that players disadvantaged by erroneously lost content could catch up. I did not suggest anyone be 'given' anything for less than what anyone else had to do. I then pointed out that if those as-yet unlocked rewards were important to ppl, they could be reintroduced into some other, equitable, reward system that everyone would also have to do the same work to acquire . . .

    Notice, how some of the players have already put a lot of work into obtaining said rewards, while others didn't put any. Yet you propose to treat them exactly the same. And you call that "equity".

    Where did I say that . . ?

    Where you said that these rewards "could be reintroduced into some other, equitable, reward system that everyone would also have to do the same work to acquire"
    Remember, that this new system would not count all the past work (because if it did it would have to count all the work put into LS1, and other now missing content, and then we'd be back to point zero).

    Why do you believe this? We could easily devise a solution that accounts for the existing ap track while accounting for the lost content. Removed rewards could be barred until existing rewards are acquired, for example. I'm not really sure how it could work otherwise, as players would be unlocking rewards farther along the track than they'd already accomplished . . .

    Then devise such a solution. Don't claim though that it definitely exists, while refusing to mention any specifics, because at the moment i just don't see how it could be done.

    I mean, in your solution, someone that starts the game today and someone at the top of AP leaderboard would need to put the same amount of effort (starting now) to obtain the items. Which ignores the "small" and "inconsequential" fact, that the latter has already worked on it (and worked very, very hard) for 7 years. Apparently all that work in your eyes is not worth anything.

    No, someone who starts today would go through the same process everyone else went through, without the disadvantage of the lost content . . .

    But "everyone else" went through the process of obtaining achievements, some of whose came from that lost content. And you specifically want to disassociate these rewards from that system.

    Yes, bc that lost content is lost. Unfairly disadvantaging the vast majority of players . . .

    So, basically, you want to deprive the players that put work into that content of the just rewards for that work. Don;t you think that's also extremely unfair?

    So, how exactly are you going to achieve your goal without running into the problem i have pointed out? Without creating a completely new system, by the way, becaus you already said that your "fix" is supposed to be easy and cheap, and creating a new rewards system would be anything but that.
    So, what of the currently existing systems are you going to use for those removed rewards?

    I've already suggested birthday rewards, as loyalty rewards are something other posters expressed an interest in. Prior to that I would have preferred rewards directly tied to future releases, similar to meta rewards now . . .

    None of those solutions differentiate between players that worked for those rewards for the last 7 years, and those that stopped playing on the first day, and just relogged yesterday, without bothering to put even one hour of work into it. Care to comment why you think that is fine?

    If they would have done less than all of the content, they are fewer rewards behind, but if they had done any of the content, they are behind by that much . . .

    Which would not be very much. Frankly, not even enough for one minor reward chest.

    There is no way to know the severity of each player's injury. Best to just find a solution that addresses everyone equitably . . .

    Your "solution" does not address everyone equitably. It doesn;t affect a huge majority of players, helps some a little bit, helps others more (but not in a way you think it does - specifically, it opens a way for some to get rewards even though they never bothered to put any effort into obtaining them), and hurts others.

    It really does. But if you feel it doesn't, do better . . .

    The only workable solution would be to reintroduce LS1 (and at least some of the missing achieves) in some form. I don't believe there exists any "simple" and "easy" solution that would not cause more problems it might solve, however. Your "fix" definitely doesn't meet those standarts.

    And as for the remedy... if you want to find one, go ahead, So far you haven't found any that might actually work and do not cause bigger problems on its own however. Well, unless you're like that one american general that once said that "there's no problem that cannot be solved by way of carpet bombing".

    I've created a solution with very few negative effects that completely solves the existing problem. Very few players would even notice the transition. It's delightful in every respect . . .

    It may seem like this to you because you keep handwaving all the negative effects and claim that they will be solved somehow (but without any clear vision about how that solution should like). The only reason why this solution might be "delightful" to you is because you, personally, simply do not care about the negative effects it will inflict on other players.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Ashen.2907Ashen.2907 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:
    So, it is believed that ArenaNet will not be aware beforehand when the game will be going into maintenance mode or shutting down? That they won't address the issue at that time? Of course, it would only need be address if it was maintenance mode, of course.

    It's too bad the Devs have never, ever spoken about any missing APs issues. I'm guessing they don't really find it concerning...at this point in time, as no player, missing APs or not, could attain all known rewards.

    I think that this point is important. The game seems, to me at least, to be designed so that no player could attain all known rewards. It is not supposed to happen.

    Some players chose to not pursue the (now) missing AP. Depriving people of the results of their decisions is not a good thing IMO.

    I know it's a lot to read through at this point, but this has been addressed. The reason this problem is worth trying to solve is that the limited availability of the content is an acknowledged mistake. If it were possible to do so, the content would still be available, so addressing the consequences of that unavailability is appropriate . . .

    Not particularly relevant to my point. Depriving others of the results of their decisions is a bad thing IMO.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2020

    @Game of Bones.8975 said:
    If a person completed all AP quests to date (minus the Daily Achievements), what is the max number?

    There are 27504 available achievements points registered on the API, so that's the max number. With the 15k daily ones we reach the total of 42504

    Is the 60K there to allow for future Achievements?

    The 60k reward was datamined a very long time ago and it's a title. When the game was released we had a very limited amount of achievement rewards, it went only up to ~20k. Then in November 2015 they added rewards up to 42k even though it took the top player up to January 2019 to unlock the first backguard (at 39k) so they ARE future rewards.

    I do wish the skins (weapons or armor) would come with every 500 AP earned.

    Well that would mean they'd have to add a LOT more rewards.

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    It switches the mode of acquisition away from AP track to something else. What exactly that "something else" should be to not decrease the time most players would be able to obtain those rewards, seeing as most players are still like 7 years of hard work away from the backpacks?

    Nor would it . . .

    Please, do tell me how it would not do it. Specifics, please, not "it would not do it because it would not do it". Without that part your "fix" is glaringly incomplete and definitely not ready to be introduced as a serious suggestion.

    I think you'd need to explain how it would. Nothing about my proposal changes the amount of time it would take anyone to get anything, other than closing the gap created by the missing content . . .

    We have a group of people that worked hard for those rewards. We also have a group of people that didn't bother to put even the slightest effort into it so far. Your "fix" makes both groups equal.

    no . . .

    Again, how it doesn't do that?

    Again, how does it? There's just nothing to support your claim . . .

    How else do you think i can interpret your suggestion as not the intention of taking away rewards from those that worked for them, and offering help in getting them to those that didn't?

    by taking it as it is stated, rather than how you have twisted it . . .

    You have stated nothing about that part of your suggestion beyond some handwaving and claiming that it will magically work somehow - but in a way you are unable to describe.

    Okay :)

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    You proposed to remove the unique rewards and add them somewhere else?

    I proposed that we remove the unique rewards no one has acquired yet, so that players disadvantaged by erroneously lost content could catch up. I did not suggest anyone be 'given' anything for less than what anyone else had to do. I then pointed out that if those as-yet unlocked rewards were important to ppl, they could be reintroduced into some other, equitable, reward system that everyone would also have to do the same work to acquire . . .

    Notice, how some of the players have already put a lot of work into obtaining said rewards, while others didn't put any. Yet you propose to treat them exactly the same. And you call that "equity".

    Where did I say that . . ?

    Where you said that these rewards "could be reintroduced into some other, equitable, reward system that everyone would also have to do the same work to acquire"
    Remember, that this new system would not count all the past work (because if it did it would have to count all the work put into LS1, and other now missing content, and then we'd be back to point zero).

    Why do you believe this? We could easily devise a solution that accounts for the existing ap track while accounting for the lost content. Removed rewards could be barred until existing rewards are acquired, for example. I'm not really sure how it could work otherwise, as players would be unlocking rewards farther along the track than they'd already accomplished . . .

    Then devise such a solution. Don't claim though that it definitely exists, while refusing to mention any specifics, because at the moment i just don't see how it could be done.

    I just did . . .

    I mean, in your solution, someone that starts the game today and someone at the top of AP leaderboard would need to put the same amount of effort (starting now) to obtain the items. Which ignores the "small" and "inconsequential" fact, that the latter has already worked on it (and worked very, very hard) for 7 years. Apparently all that work in your eyes is not worth anything.

    No, someone who starts today would go through the same process everyone else went through, without the disadvantage of the lost content . . .

    But "everyone else" went through the process of obtaining achievements, some of whose came from that lost content. And you specifically want to disassociate these rewards from that system.

    Yes, bc that lost content is lost. Unfairly disadvantaging the vast majority of players . . .

    So, basically, you want to deprive the players that put work into that content of the just rewards for that work. Don;t you think that's also extremely unfair?

    No, I do not believe repairing the consequences of the error is unfair . . .

    So, how exactly are you going to achieve your goal without running into the problem i have pointed out? Without creating a completely new system, by the way, becaus you already said that your "fix" is supposed to be easy and cheap, and creating a new rewards system would be anything but that.
    So, what of the currently existing systems are you going to use for those removed rewards?

    I've already suggested birthday rewards, as loyalty rewards are something other posters expressed an interest in. Prior to that I would have preferred rewards directly tied to future releases, similar to meta rewards now . . .

    None of those solutions differentiate between players that worked for those rewards for the last 7 years, and those that stopped playing on the first day, and just relogged yesterday, without bothering to put even one hour of work into it. Care to comment why you think that is fine?

    Primarily bc It just isn't true . . .

    If they would have done less than all of the content, they are fewer rewards behind, but if they had done any of the content, they are behind by that much . . .

    Which would not be very much. Frankly, not even enough for one minor reward chest.

    There is no way to know the severity of each player's injury. Best to just find a solution that addresses everyone equitably . . .

    Your "solution" does not address everyone equitably. It doesn;t affect a huge majority of players, helps some a little bit, helps others more (but not in a way you think it does - specifically, it opens a way for some to get rewards even though they never bothered to put any effort into obtaining them), and hurts others.

    It really does. But if you feel it doesn't, do better . . .

    The only workable solution would be to reintroduce LS1 (and at least some of the missing achieves) in some form. I don't believe there exists any "simple" and "easy" solution that would not cause more problems it might solve, however. Your "fix" definitely doesn't meet those standarts.

    Reintroducing LS1 would be vastly preferable, but it is not a workable solution, unfortunately . . .

    And as for the remedy... if you want to find one, go ahead, So far you haven't found any that might actually work and do not cause bigger problems on its own however. Well, unless you're like that one american general that once said that "there's no problem that cannot be solved by way of carpet bombing".

    I've created a solution with very few negative effects that completely solves the existing problem. Very few players would even notice the transition. It's delightful in every respect . . .

    It may seem like this to you because you keep handwaving all the negative effects and claim that they will be solved somehow (but without any clear vision about how that solution should like). The only reason why this solution might be "delightful" to you is because you, personally, simply do not care about the negative effects it will inflict on other players.

    If that were true I wouldn't have considered those consequences and included measures to mitigate them, in much the same way that you ignore the consequences of the existing situation . . .

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:
    So, it is believed that ArenaNet will not be aware beforehand when the game will be going into maintenance mode or shutting down? That they won't address the issue at that time? Of course, it would only need be address if it was maintenance mode, of course.

    It's too bad the Devs have never, ever spoken about any missing APs issues. I'm guessing they don't really find it concerning...at this point in time, as no player, missing APs or not, could attain all known rewards.

    I think that this point is important. The game seems, to me at least, to be designed so that no player could attain all known rewards. It is not supposed to happen.

    Some players chose to not pursue the (now) missing AP. Depriving people of the results of their decisions is not a good thing IMO.

    I know it's a lot to read through at this point, but this has been addressed. The reason this problem is worth trying to solve is that the limited availability of the content is an acknowledged mistake. If it were possible to do so, the content would still be available, so addressing the consequences of that unavailability is appropriate . . .

    Not particularly relevant to my point. Depriving others of the results of their decisions is a bad thing IMO.

    Well, if you're saying your point isn't relevant to the discussion, I guess there's really not much I can say about that, I admit :p

  • Etria.3642Etria.3642 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Kinda curious, reading the posts, and eating popcorn, but y'all skipped right on by Vayne's take on this. Along with another poster who is very high.

    Also, Gop, for those who have skipped the back and forth, what IS your exact, precise proposal to 'fix' the inequalities? I am also curious as to how missing festival points will be included in this solution? Or other removed achievements?

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2020

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    It switches the mode of acquisition away from AP track to something else. What exactly that "something else" should be to not decrease the time most players would be able to obtain those rewards, seeing as most players are still like 7 years of hard work away from the backpacks?

    Nor would it . . .

    Please, do tell me how it would not do it. Specifics, please, not "it would not do it because it would not do it". Without that part your "fix" is glaringly incomplete and definitely not ready to be introduced as a serious suggestion.

    I think you'd need to explain how it would. Nothing about my proposal changes the amount of time it would take anyone to get anything, other than closing the gap created by the missing content . . .

    I have already explained why i think that would be the case. If you think i am wrong, don;t keep saying that i am wrong - show us why. Meaning: you would need to present how exactly are the removed rewards going to be reintroduced, in such a way where our worries would be proven wrong. Don't just keep saying that "it's going to work out somehow" without ever sayinga nything more specific than that.
    And yes, your proposal does change the amount of time it would take anyone to get anything, because it specifically removes some rewards from the curent system. No matter what other system you would use for reintroducing them, the amount of work needed for those rewards would not be the same. Why? Because there's no other system in game that would mirror the effort of the AP track perfectly, while at the same time taking in consideration work already done (or not done) on those rewards. And remember, your proposal is supposed to be really easy and cheap to implement, which means no new systems should need to be created for it.

    We have a group of people that worked hard for those rewards. We also have a group of people that didn't bother to put even the slightest effort into it so far. Your "fix" makes both groups equal.

    no . . .

    Again, how it doesn't do that?

    Again, how does it? There's just nothing to support your claim . . .

    Again, please, specify, how your proposal would reintroduce those rewards while taking in consideration work already done (and not done) on them by different people. Do not jump around the issue, say it to us clearly. Unless, of course, you yourself have no idea how it would work.

    How else do you think i can interpret your suggestion as not the intention of taking away rewards from those that worked for them, and offering help in getting them to those that didn't?

    by taking it as it is stated, rather than how you have twisted it . . .

    You have stated nothing about that part of your suggestion beyond some handwaving and claiming that it will magically work somehow - but in a way you are unable to describe.

    Okay :)

    Glad that you agreee that your "fix" is missing a core part without which it cannot work well.

    Then devise such a solution. Don't claim though that it definitely exists, while refusing to mention any specifics, because at the moment i just don't see how it could be done.

    I just did . . .

    Then tell us what that solution you devised is. We're still missing like half of your explanation about how this system of yours is going to work. The critical part, by the way.

    So, basically, you want to deprive the players that put work into that content of the just rewards for that work. Don;t you think that's also extremely unfair?

    No, I do not believe repairing the consequences of the error is unfair . . .

    So, depriving players of the results of their hard work is fine by you. Check.

    So, how exactly are you going to achieve your goal without running into the problem i have pointed out? Without creating a completely new system, by the way, becaus you already said that your "fix" is supposed to be easy and cheap, and creating a new rewards system would be anything but that.
    So, what of the currently existing systems are you going to use for those removed rewards?

    I've already suggested birthday rewards, as loyalty rewards are something other posters expressed an interest in. Prior to that I would have preferred rewards directly tied to future releases, similar to meta rewards now . . .

    None of those solutions differentiate between players that worked for those rewards for the last 7 years, and those that stopped playing on the first day, and just relogged yesterday, without bothering to put even one hour of work into it. Care to comment why you think that is fine?

    Primarily bc It just isn't true . . .

    Okay, then, if it's not true, tell us how exactly the birthday rewards, or rewards tied to future releases, differentiate between "players that worked for those rewards for the last 7 years", and "those that stopped playing on the first day, and just relogged yesterday, without bothering to put even one hour of work into it"? Because i sure would like to know...

    If that were true I wouldn't have considered those consequences and included measures to mitigate them, in much the same way that you ignore the consequences of the existing situation . . .

    But you didn't really consider those consequences, and didn't include any measures to mitigate them. Or if you did, you never told us what exactly those measures are.

    TL/DR;
    If you want to make a suggestion, you need to present it fully and explain why you think is going to work. Don't try to omit the problem parts of it, and confound that issue by trying to make it as if we're the people that need to explain to you how the parts you didn't describe won't work as you claim they will. The burden of explaining how they will do what you say they will is on you, not on us.

    Because, at this moment, your "explanation" still has that big question mark at the step before before the "profit!"

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    It switches the mode of acquisition away from AP track to something else. What exactly that "something else" should be to not decrease the time most players would be able to obtain those rewards, seeing as most players are still like 7 years of hard work away from the backpacks?

    Nor would it . . .

    Please, do tell me how it would not do it. Specifics, please, not "it would not do it because it would not do it". Without that part your "fix" is glaringly incomplete and definitely not ready to be introduced as a serious suggestion.

    I think you'd need to explain how it would. Nothing about my proposal changes the amount of time it would take anyone to get anything, other than closing the gap created by the missing content . . .

    I have already explained why i think that would be the case. If you think i am wrong, don;t keep saying that i am wrong - show us why. Meaning: you would need to present how exactly are the removed rewards going to be reintroduced, in such a way where our worries would be proven wrong. Don't just keep saying that "it's going to work out somehow" without ever sayinga nything more specific than that.
    And yes, your proposal does change the amount of time it would take anyone to get anything, because it specifically removes some rewards from the curent system. No matter what other system you would use for reintroducing them, the amount of work needed for those rewards would not be the same. Why? Because there's no other system in game that would mirror the effort of the AP track perfectly, while at the same time taking in consideration work already done (or not done) on those rewards. And remember, your proposal is supposed to be really easy and cheap to implement, which means no new systems should need to be created for it.

    We have a group of people that worked hard for those rewards. We also have a group of people that didn't bother to put even the slightest effort into it so far. Your "fix" makes both groups equal.

    no . . .

    Again, how it doesn't do that?

    Again, how does it? There's just nothing to support your claim . . .

    Again, please, specify, how your proposal would reintroduce those rewards while taking in consideration work already done (and not done) on them by different people. Do not jump around the issue, say it to us clearly. Unless, of course, you yourself have no idea how it would work.

    How else do you think i can interpret your suggestion as not the intention of taking away rewards from those that worked for them, and offering help in getting them to those that didn't?

    by taking it as it is stated, rather than how you have twisted it . . .

    You have stated nothing about that part of your suggestion beyond some handwaving and claiming that it will magically work somehow - but in a way you are unable to describe.

    Okay :)

    Glad that you agreee that your "fix" is missing a core part without which it cannot work well.

    It's just frustrating to discover you've been raging against something all this time without bothering to understand it first . . .

    Then devise such a solution. Don't claim though that it definitely exists, while refusing to mention any specifics, because at the moment i just don't see how it could be done.

    I just did . . .

    Then tell us what that solution you devised is. We're still missing like half of your explanation about how this system of yours is going to work. The critical part, by the way.

    So, basically, you want to deprive the players that put work into that content of the just rewards for that work. Don;t you think that's also extremely unfair?

    No, I do not believe repairing the consequences of the error is unfair . . .

    So, depriving players of the results of their hard work is fine by you. Check.

    I'm not the one arguing in favor of locking players out of rewards . . .

    So, how exactly are you going to achieve your goal without running into the problem i have pointed out? Without creating a completely new system, by the way, becaus you already said that your "fix" is supposed to be easy and cheap, and creating a new rewards system would be anything but that.
    So, what of the currently existing systems are you going to use for those removed rewards?

    I've already suggested birthday rewards, as loyalty rewards are something other posters expressed an interest in. Prior to that I would have preferred rewards directly tied to future releases, similar to meta rewards now . . .

    None of those solutions differentiate between players that worked for those rewards for the last 7 years, and those that stopped playing on the first day, and just relogged yesterday, without bothering to put even one hour of work into it. Care to comment why you think that is fine?

    Primarily bc It just isn't true . . .

    Okay, then, if it's not true, tell us how exactly the birthday rewards, or rewards tied to future releases, differentiate between "players that worked for those rewards for the last 7 years", and "those that stopped playing on the first day, and just relogged yesterday, without bothering to put even one hour of work into it"? Because i sure would like to know...

    It's just impossible to understand this without knowing how you came to this conclusion, as it wasn't from anything I've said. All I've ever proposed is that everyone be required to do the same thing to get the same rewards. I'm not trying to maintain the distinction between players who had access to the lost content and those who did not . . .

    If that were true I wouldn't have considered those consequences and included measures to mitigate them, in much the same way that you ignore the consequences of the existing situation . . .

    But you didn't really consider those consequences, and didn't include any measures to mitigate them. Or if you did, you never told us what exactly those measures are.

    TL/DR;
    If you want to make a suggestion, you need to present it fully and explain why you think is going to work. Don't try to omit the problem parts of it, and confound that issue by trying to make it as if we're the people that need to explain to you how the parts you didn't describe won't work as you claim they will. The burden of explaining how they will do what you say they will is on you, not on us.

    Because, at this moment, your "explanation" still has that big question mark at the step before before the "profit!"

  • Etria.3642Etria.3642 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2020

    Going to request it again: what is your solution? I actually thought of something, but I'm not sure I like it: put the rewards all in one chunk at the highest ap currently obtainable. I have scrolled past the exact number, but add dailies, and every single(and I do mean every single) achievement currently available in game, and then award all the pieces of the sets currently available. That would, I think someone said, allow something like 86 folks to get them? EDIT: 86 folks would immediately get them, I mean. Everyone else would still have to work for more points).

    I would then add things to replace the missing ones at future steps. The question would be whether those would be things already available in game, kinda(infusion box, with a choice of infusions?) New infusion?

    That way those who have actually worked for the rewards would get them, and no one would be locked OUT of getting them.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Etria.3642 said:
    I would then add things to replace the missing ones at future steps.

    Currently there is only the backguards that will be "missing". If you allow players to get the backguards at a lower point and then add future rewards after them, wouldn't that lead you back to where you started?

    That way those who have actually worked for the rewards would get them, and no one would be locked OUT of getting them.

    As long as the game doesn't die and provides new AP, nobody is actually locked out of getting them. Remember the backguards were added in 2015 and were obtained in 2019 (the first) and the second one is obtainable given the available AP total, top player is almost there.

    As I said earlier, in a few releases the top player will see the 45k reward and we'll know of Anet's plan (if any)

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 24, 2020

    @Gop.8713 said:
    It's just impossible to understand this without knowing how you came to this conclusion, as it wasn't from anything I've said. All I've ever proposed is that everyone be required to do the same thing to get the same rewards. I'm not trying to maintain the distinction between players who had access to the lost content and those who did not . . .

    It's not about distinction between players that had access to the lost content, and those who did not. It's about not differentiating between those that already put some work into obtaining those rewards, and those that didn't. I'm not saying that you did that intentionally, mind you, but it's nevertheless a consequence of your solution.

    In your solution, someone that was at 35k AP when your fix went in will need to work exactly hard to obtain the removed rewards as someone that had 1 AP. All that past work put into obtaining those 35k AP would be ignored as far as those rewards are concerned. And unless the new method would require another 7 years of hard work on the level similar to obtaining those ~40k APs (or whatever AP cutoff value you would use for unique reward removal), the 1 AP player would be able to obtain it far easier than it's possible currently.

    And while the second result (low AP players obtaining another, possibly easier path to rewards) could potentially be argued for, the first result (veteran players having all their work invalidated) is definitely not fair and should never be allowed to happen.

    And please, don't try to tell me that "this wouldn't happen" unless you're ready to supply an actual proposal of how those rewards would be redistributed that takes this into consideration (notice, that neither the "birthday presents", nor the "future content rewards" one does that - both of those completely ignore any past work someone might have done for those rewards already).

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Etria.3642Etria.3642 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Etria.3642 said:
    I would then add things to replace the missing ones at future steps.

    Currently there is only the backguards that will be "missing". If you allow players to get the backguards at a lower point and then add future rewards after them, wouldn't that lead you back to where you started?

    That way those who have actually worked for the rewards would get them, and no one would be locked OUT of getting them.

    As long as the game doesn't die and provides new AP, nobody is actually locked out of getting them. Remember the backguards were added in 2015 and were obtained in 2019 (the first) and the second one is obtainable given the available AP total, top player is almost there.

    As I said earlier, in a few releases the top player will see the 45k reward and we'll know of Anet's plan (if any)

    That's why I said I wasn't sure I liked it; I was trying to find a compromise between Gop and Astral. The one says if they currently had all ap they ought to be able to get the same things someone who did season 1 did, the other says adding a new method altogether invalidates all the work current ap folks already put in. Putting the last backpieces together means that the player who missed season 1 STILL has to put in the work to get every single(raid, pvp, wvw, black lion chest etc) ap whereas someone who did season 1 can skip a few things. Both would have put in the work to get however many ap are currently available. (Using my suggestion.)

    I personally have no issue with the way it is currently. I don't even have 20k ap because I do pick and choose, and even if I had been around for season 1, it certainly wouldn't be complete. Back then I had much less free time and even now when I have a lot more I still don't do ~everything~. I even pick and choose days to do dailies on. I have only half of the ap from those. I also was mind-boggled at how few ap players have, in general. Our guild talked about this a little and we decided it is because most folks do not play every aspect of the game. They have their niche and stick to it. So while my wvw guild has players that have achieved literally every single wvw ap, they have not played the story past however long it takes to get the mounts. (They did the griffon together, beetle together, and skyscale together).