DPS shaming - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

DPS shaming

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  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 18, 2018

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @Deimos.4263 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    Basically, you're asking whether ANet should punish people for being rude; they don't and they won't.

    They can and they should, at least according to their own ToS. You can inform a player their DPS is sub-par without being rude about it. It is possible.

    And yet, as polite as you are there's always people that will take any criticism as constructive as you make it, as harassment.

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    I mean, there's a difference of a person doing 3k DPS (which I don't even buy, that's just plain impossible unless you're playing a magi druid or minstrel chrono)

    Get a DPS meter... You'll be surprised. I've outdpsed "DPS" Necromancers, thieves and Elementalists on full Minstrel Chrono. There's a lot of people out there that don't know what they're doing.
    There's people that just copy the builds from the page, don't even read why the build works, or how. And then go do content and just don't do anything, because they don't know how their rotation works, don't know how to avoid taking damage, and don't know how to fight, so they die a lot (especially thieves and Eles) and don't do squat. Or simply are playing too defensive builds that have little to no synergy, and don't work.
    I've carried so many of these people on the backs of decent groups that i really lost count. People complaining about the "elitists" should shut up and be thankful that they have someone to carry them through content. Because if you're doing 1k DPS on a DPS class with a decent support component, you're not going to be doing any better outsie.

    These are usually the same people who think they can jump bug flux bombs on Shattered Observatory and end up dropping them on top of Arkk occassionally or on Siax or puking over everybody or spawning a nightmare in 99CM because god forbid they move off the boss to do a mechanic and their precious meter drops. Same with anomalies on Arkk, you could just kill the kitten anomaly which takes less than 5 seconds to be safe instead of being a greedy kitten and trying to skip every phase and remove every challenge possible from an encounter by trying to brute force it with burst DPS. Then things go wrong when they find out not every group can burst efficiently and they throw a tantrum when said group can still pull off mechanics cleanly for a kill with no wipes.

    And yet, if there's a more efficient way of doing things by "brute forcing" through mechanics, why wouldn't you?

    Because it's

    a) A pug, which means less coordination than usual.
    b) Class comp dependent.
    c)Totally irrelevant as to whether the content can be completed cleanly within a reasonable amount of time by your average PUG group.

    And that's really the problem. I remember when mirage was busted and people thought 13-14k DPS was ridiculously high, now they've overbuffed a bunch of power specs and now people are absurdly stupid about not bringing certain classes that would have passed muster back then because other classes now have more power creep. Back when revenant at 30-31k was considered really high in a world of 27-29k benchmarks, and now 29-30k is "trash" and gets you a torrent of whining and petty remarks by the kitten PUG who now deems any class that does not have a 33k+ benchmark as "terrible" and not wanted in a group.

    It's these increasinly ramping requirements that are totally extraneous but somehow get treated as if they were vital or it's the end of the world.

    Sitting in a LFG waiting for 10 minutes or more for a BS warrior when taking another DPS in the amount of time you spent waiting for the BS warrior would have yielded the same clear time.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Since we are talking about it. Here is bullet number one from the Rules of Conduct for GW2.

    “While playing Guild Wars 2, you must respect the rights of others and their rights to play and enjoy the Game. To this end, you may not defraud, harass, threaten, embarrass or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other players. This includes posting insulting, offensive, or abusive comments about players, repeatedly sending unwanted messages, reporting players maliciously, attacking a player based on race, sexual orientation, religion, heritage, etc. Hate speech is not tolerated.”

  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 19, 2018

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @Deimos.4263 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    Basically, you're asking whether ANet should punish people for being rude; they don't and they won't.

    They can and they should, at least according to their own ToS. You can inform a player their DPS is sub-par without being rude about it. It is possible.

    And yet, as polite as you are there's always people that will take any criticism as constructive as you make it, as harassment.

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    I mean, there's a difference of a person doing 3k DPS (which I don't even buy, that's just plain impossible unless you're playing a magi druid or minstrel chrono)

    Get a DPS meter... You'll be surprised. I've outdpsed "DPS" Necromancers, thieves and Elementalists on full Minstrel Chrono. There's a lot of people out there that don't know what they're doing.
    There's people that just copy the builds from the page, don't even read why the build works, or how. And then go do content and just don't do anything, because they don't know how their rotation works, don't know how to avoid taking damage, and don't know how to fight, so they die a lot (especially thieves and Eles) and don't do squat. Or simply are playing too defensive builds that have little to no synergy, and don't work.
    I've carried so many of these people on the backs of decent groups that i really lost count. People complaining about the "elitists" should shut up and be thankful that they have someone to carry them through content. Because if you're doing 1k DPS on a DPS class with a decent support component, you're not going to be doing any better outsie.

    These are usually the same people who think they can jump bug flux bombs on Shattered Observatory and end up dropping them on top of Arkk occassionally or on Siax or puking over everybody or spawning a nightmare in 99CM because god forbid they move off the boss to do a mechanic and their precious meter drops. Same with anomalies on Arkk, you could just kill the kitten anomaly which takes less than 5 seconds to be safe instead of being a greedy kitten and trying to skip every phase and remove every challenge possible from an encounter by trying to brute force it with burst DPS. Then things go wrong when they find out not every group can burst efficiently and they throw a tantrum when said group can still pull off mechanics cleanly for a kill with no wipes.

    And yet, if there's a more efficient way of doing things by "brute forcing" through mechanics, why wouldn't you?

    Because it's

    a) A pug, which means less coordination than usual.

    One more reason to overcompensate and want better prepared players?

    b) Class comp dependent.

    To a point, there's 2, maybe 3 slots that need to be more or less fixed (the chrono, and then Druid and Banner warrior, which are both somewhat replaceable), the other slots are totally interchangeable. And even then you can replace those with other comps, but those are more risk prone, so less used. And actually need more fixed classes to compensate for the lack of the chrono.

    c)Totally irrelevant as to whether the content can be completed cleanly within a reasonable amount of time by your average PUG group.

    Is it? I don't find it irrelevant or unreasonable to expect that i don't need more than 1h to complete all fractals. And yet if i don't take a group with somewhat decent DPS and compositions, i'll very likely pass that mark, especially if i hit some of the longer fractals like SO.

    And that's really the problem. I remember when mirage was busted and people thought 13-14k DPS was ridiculously high, now they've overbuffed a bunch of power specs and now people are absurdly stupid about not bringing certain classes that would have passed muster back then because other classes now have more power creep.

    13-14k FPS busted? At PoF launch? LOL We were long past that mark.

    Back when revenant at 30-31k was considered really high in a world of 27-29k benchmarks, and now 29-30k is "trash" and gets you a torrent of whining and petty remarks by the kitten PUG who now deems any class that does not have a 33k+ benchmark as "terrible" and not wanted in a group.

    Well, you're right that there's some people that will be like that. For fractals i'll take anyone, really, and if it's going well, i'll happily carry those 1kdps guys. But if it isn't i'll start asking people below 10k DPS on ArcDPS if they can't do better. And depending on their response, a vote kick might follow.
    That's basically my benchmark for fractals, 10k DPS. Can't speak much for raids since i'm not a big expert on those since most of my guild mates left before those were a thing, and i think that's not the kind of content that's fun without a proper group. I've done several with pugs, and an allied guild, but then started having less time to play, and kinda stopped.

    It's these increasinly ramping requirements that are totally extraneous but somehow get treated as if they were vital or it's the end of the world.

    That's because the game itself lends itself to that power creep. For one, they keep adding the power creep because instead of making Elites interesting they choose to make them OP. Then it's a hard struggle to get the game to a decent balance, which previously was only starting to form when they released the new set of elites.
    Add to that the fact that Raids have Enrage Timers, which by themselves function as a pure DPS check, and you get the reason why this is such an issue.

    Well, that and because for half of this game's existence this was a basically everything goes, just play berserker gear and you'll be top notch. Now it started requiring a bit more effort and offering a bit more variety, and some people chafe.

    Sitting in a LFG waiting for 10 minutes or more for a BS warrior when taking another DPS in the amount of time you spent waiting for the BS warrior would have yielded the same clear time.

    Honestly... This sentence of yours is just demonstrative of my previous point. I've spent hours in a few other games waiting for a healer or a tank to be on so often, and now here we are complaining about a severely hyperbolic 10 minutes wait.
    I literally never had this happen to me in Fractals, and rarely in Raids. In fractals, i can do well without the banner guy, and usually play with one or two other friends who help cover the "required" slots, which helps. But even when solo, and outside CM (where i'm more careful, and also there's less people willing to go), i get a group going in usually under 5 minutes.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Since we are talking about it. Here is bullet number one from the Rules of Conduct for GW2.

    “While playing Guild Wars 2, you must respect the rights of others and their rights to play and enjoy the Game. To this end, you may not defraud, harass, threaten, embarrass or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other players. This includes posting insulting, offensive, or abusive comments about players, repeatedly sending unwanted messages, reporting players maliciously, attacking a player based on race, sexual orientation, religion, heritage, etc. Hate speech is not tolerated.”

    I believe you forgot your point?

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @Deimos.4263 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    Basically, you're asking whether ANet should punish people for being rude; they don't and they won't.

    They can and they should, at least according to their own ToS. You can inform a player their DPS is sub-par without being rude about it. It is possible.

    And yet, as polite as you are there's always people that will take any criticism as constructive as you make it, as harassment.

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    I mean, there's a difference of a person doing 3k DPS (which I don't even buy, that's just plain impossible unless you're playing a magi druid or minstrel chrono)

    Get a DPS meter... You'll be surprised. I've outdpsed "DPS" Necromancers, thieves and Elementalists on full Minstrel Chrono. There's a lot of people out there that don't know what they're doing.
    There's people that just copy the builds from the page, don't even read why the build works, or how. And then go do content and just don't do anything, because they don't know how their rotation works, don't know how to avoid taking damage, and don't know how to fight, so they die a lot (especially thieves and Eles) and don't do squat. Or simply are playing too defensive builds that have little to no synergy, and don't work.
    I've carried so many of these people on the backs of decent groups that i really lost count. People complaining about the "elitists" should shut up and be thankful that they have someone to carry them through content. Because if you're doing 1k DPS on a DPS class with a decent support component, you're not going to be doing any better outsie.

    These are usually the same people who think they can jump bug flux bombs on Shattered Observatory and end up dropping them on top of Arkk occassionally or on Siax or puking over everybody or spawning a nightmare in 99CM because god forbid they move off the boss to do a mechanic and their precious meter drops. Same with anomalies on Arkk, you could just kill the kitten anomaly which takes less than 5 seconds to be safe instead of being a greedy kitten and trying to skip every phase and remove every challenge possible from an encounter by trying to brute force it with burst DPS. Then things go wrong when they find out not every group can burst efficiently and they throw a tantrum when said group can still pull off mechanics cleanly for a kill with no wipes.

    And yet, if there's a more efficient way of doing things by "brute forcing" through mechanics, why wouldn't you?

    Because it's

    a) A pug, which means less coordination than usual.

    One more reason to overcompensate and want better prepared players?

    b) Class comp dependent.

    To a point, there's 2, maybe 3 slots that need to be more or less fixed (the chrono, and then Druid and Banner warrior, which are both somewhat replaceable), the other slots are totally interchangeable. And even then you can replace those with other comps, but those are more risk prone, so less used. And actually need more fixed classes to compensate for the lack of the chrono.

    c)Totally irrelevant as to whether the content can be completed cleanly within a reasonable amount of time by your average PUG group.

    Is it? I don't find it irrelevant or unreasonable to expect that i don't need more than 1h to complete all fractals. And yet if i don't take a group with somewhat decent DPS and compositions, i'll very likely pass that mark, especially if i hit some of the longer fractals like SO.

    And that's really the problem. I remember when mirage was busted and people thought 13-14k DPS was ridiculously high, now they've overbuffed a bunch of power specs and now people are absurdly stupid about not bringing certain classes that would have passed muster back then because other classes now have more power creep.

    13-14k FPS busted? At PoF launch? LOL We were long past that mark.

    Back when revenant at 30-31k was considered really high in a world of 27-29k benchmarks, and now 29-30k is "trash" and gets you a torrent of whining and petty remarks by the kitten PUG who now deems any class that does not have a 33k+ benchmark as "terrible" and not wanted in a group.

    Well, you're right that there's some people that will be like that. For fractals i'll take anyone, really, and if it's going well, i'll happily carry those 1kdps guys. But if it isn't i'll start asking people below 10k DPS on ArcDPS if they can't do better. And depending on their response, a vote kick might follow.
    That's basically my benchmark for fractals, 10k DPS. Can't speak much for raids since i'm not a big expert on those since most of my guild mates left before those were a thing, and i think that's not the kind of content that's fun without a proper group. I've done several with pugs, and an allied guild, but then started having less time to play, and kinda stopped.

    It's these increasinly ramping requirements that are totally extraneous but somehow get treated as if they were vital or it's the end of the world.

    That's because the game itself lends itself to that power creep. For one, they keep adding the power creep because instead of making Elites interesting they choose to make them OP. Then it's a hard struggle to get the game to a decent balance, which previously was only starting to form when they released the new set of elites.
    Add to that the fact that Raids have Enrage Timers, which by themselves function as a pure DPS check, and you get the reason why this is such an issue.

    Well, that and because for half of this game's existence this was a basically everything goes, just play berserker gear and you'll be top notch. Now it started requiring a bit more effort and offering a bit more variety, and some people chafe.

    Sitting in a LFG waiting for 10 minutes or more for a BS warrior when taking another DPS in the amount of time you spent waiting for the BS warrior would have yielded the same clear time.

    Honestly... This sentence of yours is just demonstrative of my previous point. I've spent hours in a few other games waiting for a healer or a tank to be on so often, and now here we are complaining about a severely hyperbolic 10 minutes wait.
    I literally never had this happen to me in Fractals, and rarely in Raids. In fractals, i can do well without the banner guy, and usually play with one or two other friends who help cover the "required" slots, which helps. But even when solo, and outside CM (where i'm more careful, and also there's less people willing to go), i get a group going in usually under 5 minutes.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Since we are talking about it. Here is bullet number one from the Rules of Conduct for GW2.

    “While playing Guild Wars 2, you must respect the rights of others and their rights to play and enjoy the Game. To this end, you may not defraud, harass, threaten, embarrass or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other players. This includes posting insulting, offensive, or abusive comments about players, repeatedly sending unwanted messages, reporting players maliciously, attacking a player based on race, sexual orientation, religion, heritage, etc. Hate speech is not tolerated.”

    I believe you forgot your point?

    No, just a point of reference of expectations of conduct for playing Gw2.

    Incidents like this happen in PvP and players get a few days banned from the game, much like in the forums.

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @Deimos.4263 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    Basically, you're asking whether ANet should punish people for being rude; they don't and they won't.

    They can and they should, at least according to their own ToS. You can inform a player their DPS is sub-par without being rude about it. It is possible.

    And yet, as polite as you are there's always people that will take any criticism as constructive as you make it, as harassment.

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    I mean, there's a difference of a person doing 3k DPS (which I don't even buy, that's just plain impossible unless you're playing a magi druid or minstrel chrono)

    Get a DPS meter... You'll be surprised. I've outdpsed "DPS" Necromancers, thieves and Elementalists on full Minstrel Chrono. There's a lot of people out there that don't know what they're doing.
    There's people that just copy the builds from the page, don't even read why the build works, or how. And then go do content and just don't do anything, because they don't know how their rotation works, don't know how to avoid taking damage, and don't know how to fight, so they die a lot (especially thieves and Eles) and don't do squat. Or simply are playing too defensive builds that have little to no synergy, and don't work.
    I've carried so many of these people on the backs of decent groups that i really lost count. People complaining about the "elitists" should shut up and be thankful that they have someone to carry them through content. Because if you're doing 1k DPS on a DPS class with a decent support component, you're not going to be doing any better outsie.

    These are usually the same people who think they can jump bug flux bombs on Shattered Observatory and end up dropping them on top of Arkk occassionally or on Siax or puking over everybody or spawning a nightmare in 99CM because god forbid they move off the boss to do a mechanic and their precious meter drops. Same with anomalies on Arkk, you could just kill the kitten anomaly which takes less than 5 seconds to be safe instead of being a greedy kitten and trying to skip every phase and remove every challenge possible from an encounter by trying to brute force it with burst DPS. Then things go wrong when they find out not every group can burst efficiently and they throw a tantrum when said group can still pull off mechanics cleanly for a kill with no wipes.

    And yet, if there's a more efficient way of doing things by "brute forcing" through mechanics, why wouldn't you?

    Because it's

    a) A pug, which means less coordination than usual.

    One more reason to overcompensate and want better prepared players?

    b) Class comp dependent.

    To a point, there's 2, maybe 3 slots that need to be more or less fixed (the chrono, and then Druid and Banner warrior, which are both somewhat replaceable), the other slots are totally interchangeable. And even then you can replace those with other comps, but those are more risk prone, so less used. And actually need more fixed classes to compensate for the lack of the chrono.

    c)Totally irrelevant as to whether the content can be completed cleanly within a reasonable amount of time by your average PUG group.

    Is it? I don't find it irrelevant or unreasonable to expect that i don't need more than 1h to complete all fractals. And yet if i don't take a group with somewhat decent DPS and compositions, i'll very likely pass that mark, especially if i hit some of the longer fractals like SO.

    And that's really the problem. I remember when mirage was busted and people thought 13-14k DPS was ridiculously high, now they've overbuffed a bunch of power specs and now people are absurdly stupid about not bringing certain classes that would have passed muster back then because other classes now have more power creep.

    13-14k FPS busted? At PoF launch? LOL We were long past that mark.

    Back when revenant at 30-31k was considered really high in a world of 27-29k benchmarks, and now 29-30k is "trash" and gets you a torrent of whining and petty remarks by the kitten PUG who now deems any class that does not have a 33k+ benchmark as "terrible" and not wanted in a group.

    Well, you're right that there's some people that will be like that. For fractals i'll take anyone, really, and if it's going well, i'll happily carry those 1kdps guys. But if it isn't i'll start asking people below 10k DPS on ArcDPS if they can't do better. And depending on their response, a vote kick might follow.
    That's basically my benchmark for fractals, 10k DPS. Can't speak much for raids since i'm not a big expert on those since most of my guild mates left before those were a thing, and i think that's not the kind of content that's fun without a proper group. I've done several with pugs, and an allied guild, but then started having less time to play, and kinda stopped.

    It's these increasinly ramping requirements that are totally extraneous but somehow get treated as if they were vital or it's the end of the world.

    That's because the game itself lends itself to that power creep. For one, they keep adding the power creep because instead of making Elites interesting they choose to make them OP. Then it's a hard struggle to get the game to a decent balance, which previously was only starting to form when they released the new set of elites.
    Add to that the fact that Raids have Enrage Timers, which by themselves function as a pure DPS check, and you get the reason why this is such an issue.

    Well, that and because for half of this game's existence this was a basically everything goes, just play berserker gear and you'll be top notch. Now it started requiring a bit more effort and offering a bit more variety, and some people chafe.

    Sitting in a LFG waiting for 10 minutes or more for a BS warrior when taking another DPS in the amount of time you spent waiting for the BS warrior would have yielded the same clear time.

    Honestly... This sentence of yours is just demonstrative of my previous point. I've spent hours in a few other games waiting for a healer or a tank to be on so often, and now here we are complaining about a severely hyperbolic 10 minutes wait.
    I literally never had this happen to me in Fractals, and rarely in Raids. In fractals, i can do well without the banner guy, and usually play with one or two other friends who help cover the "required" slots, which helps. But even when solo, and outside CM (where i'm more careful, and also there's less people willing to go), i get a group going in usually under 5 minutes.

    1- Overcompensation for lack of coordination is already done through presumably the kill proof requirements. Class kitten as SC/qT themselves coined the term are an entirely different matter. The degree of overcompensation is also what's being discussed.

    2- I have run plenty of 3 DPS no BS/non-weaver stacking comps that clear fractals in less than 45 minutes.

    In fact, often the greatest waste of time is when you form a group, get a scourge or revenant, and then unless your group already had a druid or chrono, the waiting times for that group to fill shoot up astronomically even with lax requirements. It's an infection that has seeped into PUG mentality just as much as when people would scoff at thieves, rangers, and necromancers in explorable dungeons.

    3- Class comp dependency for bursting still exists. Case in point, you might have trouble skipping phases with a condi renegade or power dps chrono or condi engineer, but at the same time have pretty reasonable clearing and clean runs for each of those bosses that don't translate to more than maybe 1-2 minutes kill time difference for the CM's. It virtually hurts no one in these circumstances to just opt to do the mechanics, which is how the encounter was designed to begin with; instead of berating people because they did 12-14k DPS instead of bursting 20k+.

    4- Mirage on your average PoF release CM were doing little more than 14k-15k DPS tops for most CM runs before people started whining about their easy damage, and for optimal runs of course weavers were already king. Point is, nobody whined about 13-14k DPS on CM's because outside weavers few people objected to 10-12k DPS by then.

    5- On the bare minimum, we agree. I tend to prefer a 12k DPS standard of performance for non-phase heavy fights (skorvald tends to depress the DPS of classes without snap burst a lot, and whoever gets to cream the adds first usually looks a ton better than the rest). Virtually every class spec can pull off 12k DPS. If they fail that test and land more in the 8-9k range, I whisper them the SC website at the end of the run. If they did considerably less, I usually just avoid them in future groups. I never go out of my way to humiliate people, however. Even when you carry a person, toxic aggressiveness is simply not admissible.

    6- Raid enrage timers are stupidly lax. They're almost nonexistent unless you have seriously screwed up mechanics and you have people in knights gear sneaked in. In all these years of raiding, and I have PuG'd a ton, I have NEVER wiped due to an enrage timer. The closest I've ever gotten was Gorseval.

    Hell, the hardest raid boss to do training runs in imo, Matthias, is still an extremely forgiving timer.

    People have obsessed over clear times long before DPS enrage timers existed. I suspect it's because the content is so relatively easier compared to FFXIV savage mode or WoW mythic's level of encounter complexity that since people clear the content so quickly, and there's little in terms of progression, they occupy their time instead with optimizing clear times so they can go make gold somewhere else since raiding is not particularly lucrative to begin with and even fractal CM's are hardly more lucrative than RIBA farms or spending similar amounts of time playing the AH.

    7- You may not have experienced it, but I have. Literally today as well after reset, where we filled a group at :45 and ended up running at :57 because the druid and chrono came in and saw no warrior, were told we would run without BS, and it became a game of dancing chairs as people came in, left, came in, left, came in, until finally we got a bunch that didn't care that a BS warrior would not join.

    I have even carried out experiments where I swap the DPS comps in LFG to include any class that is not a weaver/guard/holo, and if a necro or revenant is in the group, wait times to fill go up substantially. Want to play power DPS chrono or even soulbeast? The moment people see two of the same class in LFG and it's not weavers or guardian, wait times also shoot up. Even in the case of having a thief in the group yields longer wait times than a full group of weaver/holo/guardian by far.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 19, 2018

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Since we are talking about it. Here is bullet number one from the Rules of Conduct for GW2.

    “While playing Guild Wars 2, you must respect the rights of others and their rights to play and enjoy the Game. To this end, you may not defraud, harass, threaten, embarrass or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other players. This includes posting insulting, offensive, or abusive comments about players, repeatedly sending unwanted messages, reporting players maliciously, attacking a player based on race, sexual orientation, religion, heritage, etc. Hate speech is not tolerated.”

    Yes exactly why players joining groups they shouldn't, is breaking the rules. Give a ban to those lying or pinging LI and dps shaming will also go away, plus it will make the requirements for instanced content more lax, as you won't have to deal with this kind of abuse and harassment anymore.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 19, 2018

    Are people allowed to shame someone for the missing boons and heals? If so then we should probably remove boons on the party UI and look for some fix to replace health bars with something else because you know there is going to be that one person who is going to be a jerk about it. The thing is, there are obviously going to be jerks out there. ArcDPS or any other meters did not cause this.
    DPS meters make personal DPS and thus personal performances more obvious. They actually put some personal responsibility on all of those who always prefered to blame their healers and supports and the damage of everyone else but their own. They may have brought the worst out in some but they also made many players improve greatly or, well, stopped some players from leeching the way they used to.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:
    Just upload a text on metabattle, call it Terms of Efficiency - T0E. Write in all the things you feel are common standard for a good, efficient group-experience. And put T0E inside your LFG descriptions. Everyone who joins your parties either agrees to the T0E, or will ask what it is about. You can either explain it, or link to it and then people can decide before the run if they really want to go through that.

    Or simply add the word "experienced" in your LFG description and expect actually experienced people to join. "Experience" is common sense and a person doing 3k is not exactly experienced, more like a freeloader.

    Always used "experienced" as a requirement myself but it has always been hit and miss. All the way back to when people considered themselves experienced if they had completed a dungeon once. Not to mention those who simply refuse to listen or those thinking along the lines of "I am entitled to be able to join no matter what they say" or "Who cares, they won't notice anyways". Pretty much where half of the complaining about DPS meters even comes from.

    Nothing is particularly hard if you divide it into small jobs. Henry Ford

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Since we are talking about it. Here is bullet number one from the Rules of Conduct for GW2.

    “While playing Guild Wars 2, you must respect the rights of others and their rights to play and enjoy the Game. To this end, you may not defraud, harass, threaten, embarrass or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other players. This includes posting insulting, offensive, or abusive comments about players, repeatedly sending unwanted messages, reporting players maliciously, attacking a player based on race, sexual orientation, religion, heritage, etc. Hate speech is not tolerated.”

    Yes exactly why players joining groups they shouldn't, is breaking the rules. Give a ban to those lying or pinging LI and dps shaming will also go away, plus it will make the requirements for instanced content more lax, as you won't have to deal with this kind of abuse and harassment anymore.

    Not sure if it’s necessarily going to go away entirely. Your still going to have the idiots that still shame people that do moderately decent dps and still give people kitten even when you win the fight without problems. The thing is the chat is all logged. If people start going crazy report em and leave the party.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Henry.5713 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:
    Just upload a text on metabattle, call it Terms of Efficiency - T0E. Write in all the things you feel are common standard for a good, efficient group-experience. And put T0E inside your LFG descriptions. Everyone who joins your parties either agrees to the T0E, or will ask what it is about. You can either explain it, or link to it and then people can decide before the run if they really want to go through that.

    Or simply add the word "experienced" in your LFG description and expect actually experienced people to join. "Experience" is common sense and a person doing 3k is not exactly experienced, more like a freeloader.

    Always used "experienced" as a requirement myself but it has always been hit and miss. All the way back to when people considered themselves experienced if they had completed a dungeon once. Not to mention those who simply refuse to listen or those thinking along the lines of "I am entitled to be able to join no matter what they say" or "Who cares, they won't notice anyways". Pretty much where half of the complaining about DPS meters even comes from.

    I noticed that too when my groups want to fill last spots with randoms. You add "Experienced" or "Know the fight" or anything like it, and you still get first timers that think are are entitled to your time. I was responding to that comment about making a Terms of Efficiency, upload it, and have everyone read it when joining the group, that's too much trouble and not really needed, just adding "experienced only" should be enough, at least it gives you more than enough justification to point them out and then kick them.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    These are usually the same people who think they can jump bug flux bombs on Shattered Observatory and end up dropping them on top of Arkk occassionally or on Siax or puking over everybody or spawning a nightmare in 99CM because god forbid they move off the boss to do a mechanic and their precious meter drops. Same with anomalies on Arkk, you could just kill the kitten anomaly which takes less than 5 seconds to be safe instead of being a greedy kitten and trying to skip every phase and remove every challenge possible from an encounter by trying to brute force it with burst DPS. Then things go wrong when they find out not every group can burst efficiently and they throw a tantrum when said group can still pull off mechanics cleanly for a kill with no wipes.

    And yet, if there's a more efficient way of doing things by "brute forcing" through mechanics, why wouldn't you?

    cus sometimes you wanna stop and smell the roses and cus most of the time those brutforcers juts to showoff their dps ignore anything and waste my time by wiping

    I dream of elves in GW2.

  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @phs.6089 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    These are usually the same people who think they can jump bug flux bombs on Shattered Observatory and end up dropping them on top of Arkk occassionally or on Siax or puking over everybody or spawning a nightmare in 99CM because god forbid they move off the boss to do a mechanic and their precious meter drops. Same with anomalies on Arkk, you could just kill the kitten anomaly which takes less than 5 seconds to be safe instead of being a greedy kitten and trying to skip every phase and remove every challenge possible from an encounter by trying to brute force it with burst DPS. Then things go wrong when they find out not every group can burst efficiently and they throw a tantrum when said group can still pull off mechanics cleanly for a kill with no wipes.

    And yet, if there's a more efficient way of doing things by "brute forcing" through mechanics, why wouldn't you?

    cus sometimes you wanna stop and smell the roses and cus most of the time those brutforcers juts to showoff their dps ignore anything and waste my time by wiping

    I smelled the roses the first 3-10 times through... Now i want to hold my breath and plow through the content in as little time as i can. If i choose to do so, and the majority of the community does so. I don't think that people that don't "feel like" pulling their own weight have no business telling me how to play.
    What you forget is that 90% of the people have completed the content more than once, and are just going through the motions, because the game requires you to farm. If you're late to the bus, it's ok, there's a lot of people willing to teach you how to. Heck i'm willing to bet anything that most of the "elitists" i know probably spent more hours trudging through content to teach new players how to do it than anyone that complains about elitists in the forums.
    How can i say this? Easy, if you're here complaining about people that do content efficiently, odds are you don't know how to do it yourself.

    @Belorn.2659 said:
    DPS, boon sharing, CC, heals, toughness checks, blocks, pushes, special action key, condition damage, boon strip, blue circles, red orbs, eggs, bombs, mushrooms, poison, reflects, portals, stacking, buttons, pulls, hands, black, dead, green circles, light, big orbs, shackles, soul split, enforces, 10%, swords, shields, lamp...

    Each and every one of those are critical to perform correctly in raiding. They are all mechanics, and DPS is just one among many. Failure will result in player death, lost time and frustration if continued for too long. Calling out players on any of those in voice or squad chat is not harassment in of itself. Playing a game means working within the constraints of the game mechanics, and raid is designed to have more mechanics than any other game mode.

    Harassment is not about which mechanic someone is failing at, but rather how people are calling out someone. Harassing someone about reflects in mathias, getting egged in gor, missing a green at dhuum, getting picked up by during CM, or low DPS is all the same from a game rule perspective. Harassment is not allowed, but calling out people for failing mechanics is. The distinction is in how it is done.

    Exactly! The issue is, lots of people will take any criticism of their infallible selves as harassment. I mean, if someone talked to me like OP's example... I'd probably take notice of my DPS and see what's failing or just tell him to stuff it cause i'm a support chrono ^_^ But i wouldn't think of it as harassment. Yet op clearly does. I think it's also a cultural and generational problem. Some people have incredibly thin skins, so thin i'm baffled how they manage to survive in the internet.

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @Deimos.4263 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    Basically, you're asking whether ANet should punish people for being rude; they don't and they won't.

    They can and they should, at least according to their own ToS. You can inform a player their DPS is sub-par without being rude about it. It is possible.

    And yet, as polite as you are there's always people that will take any criticism as constructive as you make it, as harassment.

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    I mean, there's a difference of a person doing 3k DPS (which I don't even buy, that's just plain impossible unless you're playing a magi druid or minstrel chrono)

    Get a DPS meter... You'll be surprised. I've outdpsed "DPS" Necromancers, thieves and Elementalists on full Minstrel Chrono. There's a lot of people out there that don't know what they're doing.
    There's people that just copy the builds from the page, don't even read why the build works, or how. And then go do content and just don't do anything, because they don't know how their rotation works, don't know how to avoid taking damage, and don't know how to fight, so they die a lot (especially thieves and Eles) and don't do squat. Or simply are playing too defensive builds that have little to no synergy, and don't work.
    I've carried so many of these people on the backs of decent groups that i really lost count. People complaining about the "elitists" should shut up and be thankful that they have someone to carry them through content. Because if you're doing 1k DPS on a DPS class with a decent support component, you're not going to be doing any better outsie.

    These are usually the same people who think they can jump bug flux bombs on Shattered Observatory and end up dropping them on top of Arkk occassionally or on Siax or puking over everybody or spawning a nightmare in 99CM because god forbid they move off the boss to do a mechanic and their precious meter drops. Same with anomalies on Arkk, you could just kill the kitten anomaly which takes less than 5 seconds to be safe instead of being a greedy kitten and trying to skip every phase and remove every challenge possible from an encounter by trying to brute force it with burst DPS. Then things go wrong when they find out not every group can burst efficiently and they throw a tantrum when said group can still pull off mechanics cleanly for a kill with no wipes.

    And yet, if there's a more efficient way of doing things by "brute forcing" through mechanics, why wouldn't you?

    Because it's

    a) A pug, which means less coordination than usual.

    One more reason to overcompensate and want better prepared players?

    b) Class comp dependent.

    To a point, there's 2, maybe 3 slots that need to be more or less fixed (the chrono, and then Druid and Banner warrior, which are both somewhat replaceable), the other slots are totally interchangeable. And even then you can replace those with other comps, but those are more risk prone, so less used. And actually need more fixed classes to compensate for the lack of the chrono.

    c)Totally irrelevant as to whether the content can be completed cleanly within a reasonable amount of time by your average PUG group.

    Is it? I don't find it irrelevant or unreasonable to expect that i don't need more than 1h to complete all fractals. And yet if i don't take a group with somewhat decent DPS and compositions, i'll very likely pass that mark, especially if i hit some of the longer fractals like SO.

    And that's really the problem. I remember when mirage was busted and people thought 13-14k DPS was ridiculously high, now they've overbuffed a bunch of power specs and now people are absurdly stupid about not bringing certain classes that would have passed muster back then because other classes now have more power creep.

    13-14k FPS busted? At PoF launch? LOL We were long past that mark.

    Back when revenant at 30-31k was considered really high in a world of 27-29k benchmarks, and now 29-30k is "trash" and gets you a torrent of whining and petty remarks by the kitten PUG who now deems any class that does not have a 33k+ benchmark as "terrible" and not wanted in a group.

    Well, you're right that there's some people that will be like that. For fractals i'll take anyone, really, and if it's going well, i'll happily carry those 1kdps guys. But if it isn't i'll start asking people below 10k DPS on ArcDPS if they can't do better. And depending on their response, a vote kick might follow.
    That's basically my benchmark for fractals, 10k DPS. Can't speak much for raids since i'm not a big expert on those since most of my guild mates left before those were a thing, and i think that's not the kind of content that's fun without a proper group. I've done several with pugs, and an allied guild, but then started having less time to play, and kinda stopped.

    It's these increasinly ramping requirements that are totally extraneous but somehow get treated as if they were vital or it's the end of the world.

    That's because the game itself lends itself to that power creep. For one, they keep adding the power creep because instead of making Elites interesting they choose to make them OP. Then it's a hard struggle to get the game to a decent balance, which previously was only starting to form when they released the new set of elites.
    Add to that the fact that Raids have Enrage Timers, which by themselves function as a pure DPS check, and you get the reason why this is such an issue.

    Well, that and because for half of this game's existence this was a basically everything goes, just play berserker gear and you'll be top notch. Now it started requiring a bit more effort and offering a bit more variety, and some people chafe.

    Sitting in a LFG waiting for 10 minutes or more for a BS warrior when taking another DPS in the amount of time you spent waiting for the BS warrior would have yielded the same clear time.

    Honestly... This sentence of yours is just demonstrative of my previous point. I've spent hours in a few other games waiting for a healer or a tank to be on so often, and now here we are complaining about a severely hyperbolic 10 minutes wait.
    I literally never had this happen to me in Fractals, and rarely in Raids. In fractals, i can do well without the banner guy, and usually play with one or two other friends who help cover the "required" slots, which helps. But even when solo, and outside CM (where i'm more careful, and also there's less people willing to go), i get a group going in usually under 5 minutes.

    1- Overcompensation for lack of coordination is already done through presumably the kill proof requirements. Class kitten as SC/qT themselves coined the term are an entirely different matter. The degree of overcompensation is also what's being discussed.

    Overcompensation for that lack of coordination is what i deem necessary. Not you. If i think that to compensate for coordination everyone must have a full Knights Reaper, that's what i'll ask of my group. It's not up to you to decide.
    Me, personally, i never, ever ask for KP. I prefer asking for people that know how to play, and have some common sense/experience, and if they fail to prove that through their performance then i act. I also prefer to take safer group comps as well. My way doesn't limit any player from joining, as long as they are willing to play required classes (which again, is usually just generic DPS, since, especially for harder content like CM and Raids i prefer to have those slots covered through me and my friends).
    Basically your way (KPs) is way more prejudiced than mine.

    2- I have run plenty of 3 DPS no BS/non-weaver stacking comps that clear fractals in less than 45 minutes.

    So have i. Depending on the fractals. Heck i've done full T4 runs with recomendeds in less than 30 minutes while carrying a friend of mine that had like 40 AP. But other times, i'll rather take a proper comp, especially in certain fractals, like uncategorized, SO, etc that are cleared MUCH faster by brute-forcing mechanics with healers and supports.

    In fact, often the greatest waste of time is when you form a group, get a scourge or revenant, and then unless your group already had a druid or chrono, the waiting times for that group to fill shoot up astronomically even with lax requirements. It's an infection that has seeped into PUG mentality just as much as when people would scoff at thieves, rangers, and necromancers in explorable dungeons.

    Again. I never took longer than 5 minutes to fill my group. I've never scoffed at any class in explorable dungeons. Again, i don't ask for meta builds, i ask for good performances. And now, thanks to DPS meters being allowed i can actually monitor mine and other people's performance based on actual numbers and not "feelings".

    3- Class comp dependency for bursting still exists. Case in point, you might have trouble skipping phases with a condi renegade or power dps chrono or condi engineer, but at the same time have pretty reasonable clearing and clean runs for each of those bosses that don't translate to more than maybe 1-2 minutes kill time difference for the CM's. It virtually hurts no one in these circumstances to just opt to do the mechanics, which is how the encounter was designed to begin with; instead of berating people because they did 12-14k DPS instead of bursting 20k+.

    Agreed. I usually prefer to do the mechanics, or at least partially do them, than brute-force. It might shave a few minutes to just do so, but i find it safer to do it "proper". BUT, i'm not going to rush to the forums to berate anyone for choosing to do so. And if my group wants to skip mechanics, i'll do that, because i know what my character can do. And when i don't, i ask.

    4- Mirage on your average PoF release CM were doing little more than 14k-15k DPS tops for most CM runs before people started whining about their easy damage, and for optimal runs of course weavers were already king. Point is, nobody whined about 13-14k DPS on CM's because outside weavers few people objected to 10-12k DPS by then.

    Sure... Yeah.. Your memory is fuzzy there mate, cause i easily recall a lot of 50k broken numbers from a few classes when PoF launched. And the average DPS benchmarks was already well into the 30K's back then.
    I still don't see anyone berating people for less than 30k dps in actual gameplay. Benchmarks are benchmarks. They're not supposed to be expected from everyone everywhere.
    I'll grant you, i haven't done a Fractal (or basically anything else) in like 2-3 months. But i don't think there would be such a drastic shift. But if that is happening everywhere, well that's nice, if people can do 30kdps solid, then the game surely progressed further into the holy broken game status.

    5- On the bare minimum, we agree. I tend to prefer a 12k DPS standard of performance for non-phase heavy fights (skorvald tends to depress the DPS of classes without snap burst a lot, and whoever gets to cream the adds first usually looks a ton better than the rest). Virtually every class spec can pull off 12k DPS. If they fail that test and land more in the 8-9k range, I whisper them the SC website at the end of the run. If they did considerably less, I usually just avoid them in future groups. I never go out of my way to humiliate people, however. Even when you carry a person, toxic aggressiveness is simply not admissible.

    Well, asking a person what build they're running, and mentioning they could probably improve is humiliating only to those without humility.

    6- Raid enrage timers are stupidly lax. They're almost nonexistent unless you have seriously screwed up mechanics and you have people in knights gear sneaked in. In all these years of raiding, and I have PuG'd a ton, I have NEVER wiped due to an enrage timer. The closest I've ever gotten was Gorseval.

    Of course you never wiped... Because when you hit that mark, people just GG.

    Hell, the hardest raid boss to do training runs in imo, Matthias, is still an extremely forgiving timer.

    People have obsessed over clear times long before DPS enrage timers existed. I suspect it's because the content is so relatively easier compared to FFXIV savage mode or WoW mythic's level of encounter complexity that since people clear the content so quickly, and there's little in terms of progression, they occupy their time instead with optimizing clear times so they can go make gold somewhere else since raiding is not particularly lucrative to begin with and even fractal CM's are hardly more lucrative than RIBA farms or spending similar amounts of time playing the AH.

    Yeah, there's a thing called speed runs, and people actually kind of compete with that. But that isn't usually what you do with PUGs. The thing about wanting to do content fast in pugs, is that, you've done that content 100's of times already, you just want to go ahead and be done with it. No one wants to do the same thing over and over again (well, some people do, but each one has their kinks).

    7- You may not have experienced it, but I have. Literally today as well after reset, where we filled a group at :45 and ended up running at :57 because the druid and chrono came in and saw no warrior, were told we would run without BS, and it became a game of dancing chairs as people came in, left, came in, left, came in, until finally we got a bunch that didn't care that a BS warrior would not join.

    Are you playing in NA? Because i've litterally NEVER have had anyone leaving because no warrior in Fractals.

    I have even carried out experiments where I swap the DPS comps in LFG to include any class that is not a weaver/guard/holo, and if a necro or revenant is in the group, wait times to fill go up substantially. Want to play power DPS chrono or even soulbeast? The moment people see two of the same class in LFG and it's not weavers or guardian, wait times also shoot up. Even in the case of having a thief in the group yields longer wait times than a full group of weaver/holo/guardian by far.

    Heck, i try to stay away from Elementalists and thieves in my fractals. Again, to each their own. I've failed more fractals from elementalists dying constantly and taking DPS away because people have to ress them than from Necromancers doing 1000DPS.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Well if this is shaming then instead of saying anything i will kick those players now.

    Kick with a whisper as to why at least. Honestly i think that satisfies everything including the TOS by not addressing it in front of people.

    Ember Wandertooth(SB), Lucina Fallenflame(Weaver), Kianda Redpaw(Guardian), Kingslayer, Light in the Dark.
    Why Guild Wars is called Guild Wars

  • There has been a huge problem with the community with the so called 'dps elitists'. I run Arah dungeon on a semi-frequent basis and a lot of Arah is knowing the mechanics and working as a team to efficiently go through the dungeon on a good quick run. Often in LFG we will have what I like to call "COD players". Essentially, these people will come into a group and all they care about is killing. They ignore players and their team, run with DPS meters and will spill lots of derogatory comments and attack all other players even if they are the reason the team got killed. I ran into a Warrior who was going on about how much damage you dealt to the Giganticus Lupicus and started attacking the Druid in our team saying he wasn't matching his DPS and how he should 'kill' himself. I of course screenshotted the screen justifying the kick and got a replacement who actually worked as a team. A game is supposed to be fun which requires knowledge of mechanics especially for dungeons and raids, but destroying and attacking others is not a way to help others grow so that they may help you or others in the future.

  • @Dante.1763 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Well if this is shaming then instead of saying anything i will kick those players now.

    Kick with a whisper as to why at least. Honestly i think that satisfies everything including the TOS by not addressing it in front of people.

    And then you get a thread like this, the cycle will just repeat itself

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mini Crinny.6190 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Well if this is shaming then instead of saying anything i will kick those players now.

    Kick with a whisper as to why at least. Honestly i think that satisfies everything including the TOS by not addressing it in front of people.

    And then you get a thread like this, the cycle will just repeat itself

    Perhaps you might, Im just saying, id rather have somebody whisper me why they kicked me, than post numbers that even i dont get to see in a group setting.

    Ember Wandertooth(SB), Lucina Fallenflame(Weaver), Kianda Redpaw(Guardian), Kingslayer, Light in the Dark.
    Why Guild Wars is called Guild Wars

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Well if this is shaming then instead of saying anything i will kick those players now.

    Kick with a whisper as to why at least. Honestly i think that satisfies everything including the TOS by not addressing it in front of people.

    Whispering is inefficient because you also need to inform the rest of your team why someone was kicked, unless the rest of the team is on voice chat.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Well if this is shaming then instead of saying anything i will kick those players now.

    Kick with a whisper as to why at least. Honestly i think that satisfies everything including the TOS by not addressing it in front of people.

    Whispering is inefficient because you also need to inform the rest of your team why someone was kicked, unless the rest of the team is on voice chat.

    I was almost certain that voice chat was mandatory for raids, i know all the groups ive been a part of do, even if its just to listen for calls, so i didnt account for that. I suppose thats the case?

    Ember Wandertooth(SB), Lucina Fallenflame(Weaver), Kianda Redpaw(Guardian), Kingslayer, Light in the Dark.
    Why Guild Wars is called Guild Wars

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 19, 2018

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    These are usually the same people who think they can jump bug flux bombs on Shattered Observatory and end up dropping them on top of Arkk occassionally or on Siax or puking over everybody or spawning a nightmare in 99CM because god forbid they move off the boss to do a mechanic and their precious meter drops. Same with anomalies on Arkk, you could just kill the kitten anomaly which takes less than 5 seconds to be safe instead of being a greedy kitten and trying to skip every phase and remove every challenge possible from an encounter by trying to brute force it with burst DPS. Then things go wrong when they find out not every group can burst efficiently and they throw a tantrum when said group can still pull off mechanics cleanly for a kill with no wipes.

    And yet, if there's a more efficient way of doing things by "brute forcing" through mechanics, why wouldn't you?

    cus sometimes you wanna stop and smell the roses and cus most of the time those brutforcers juts to showoff their dps ignore anything and waste my time by wiping

    I smelled the roses the first 3-10 times through... Now i want to hold my breath and plow through the content in as little time as i can. If i choose to do so, and the majority of the community does so. I don't think that people that don't "feel like" pulling their own weight have no business telling me how to play.
    What you forget is that 90% of the people have completed the content more than once, and are just going through the motions, because the game requires you to farm. If you're late to the bus, it's ok, there's a lot of people willing to teach you how to. Heck i'm willing to bet anything that most of the "elitists" i know probably spent more hours trudging through content to teach new players how to do it than anyone that complains about elitists in the forums.
    How can i say this? Easy, if you're here complaining about people that do content efficiently, odds are you don't know how to do it yourself.

    @Belorn.2659 said:
    DPS, boon sharing, CC, heals, toughness checks, blocks, pushes, special action key, condition damage, boon strip, blue circles, red orbs, eggs, bombs, mushrooms, poison, reflects, portals, stacking, buttons, pulls, hands, black, dead, green circles, light, big orbs, shackles, soul split, enforces, 10%, swords, shields, lamp...

    Each and every one of those are critical to perform correctly in raiding. They are all mechanics, and DPS is just one among many. Failure will result in player death, lost time and frustration if continued for too long. Calling out players on any of those in voice or squad chat is not harassment in of itself. Playing a game means working within the constraints of the game mechanics, and raid is designed to have more mechanics than any other game mode.

    Harassment is not about which mechanic someone is failing at, but rather how people are calling out someone. Harassing someone about reflects in mathias, getting egged in gor, missing a green at dhuum, getting picked up by during CM, or low DPS is all the same from a game rule perspective. Harassment is not allowed, but calling out people for failing mechanics is. The distinction is in how it is done.

    Exactly! The issue is, lots of people will take any criticism of their infallible selves as harassment. I mean, if someone talked to me like OP's example... I'd probably take notice of my DPS and see what's failing or just tell him to stuff it cause i'm a support chrono ^_^ But i wouldn't think of it as harassment. Yet op clearly does. I think it's also a cultural and generational problem. Some people have incredibly thin skins, so thin i'm baffled how they manage to survive in the internet.

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @Deimos.4263 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    Basically, you're asking whether ANet should punish people for being rude; they don't and they won't.

    They can and they should, at least according to their own ToS. You can inform a player their DPS is sub-par without being rude about it. It is possible.

    And yet, as polite as you are there's always people that will take any criticism as constructive as you make it, as harassment.

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    I mean, there's a difference of a person doing 3k DPS (which I don't even buy, that's just plain impossible unless you're playing a magi druid or minstrel chrono)

    Get a DPS meter... You'll be surprised. I've outdpsed "DPS" Necromancers, thieves and Elementalists on full Minstrel Chrono. There's a lot of people out there that don't know what they're doing.
    There's people that just copy the builds from the page, don't even read why the build works, or how. And then go do content and just don't do anything, because they don't know how their rotation works, don't know how to avoid taking damage, and don't know how to fight, so they die a lot (especially thieves and Eles) and don't do squat. Or simply are playing too defensive builds that have little to no synergy, and don't work.
    I've carried so many of these people on the backs of decent groups that i really lost count. People complaining about the "elitists" should shut up and be thankful that they have someone to carry them through content. Because if you're doing 1k DPS on a DPS class with a decent support component, you're not going to be doing any better outsie.

    These are usually the same people who think they can jump bug flux bombs on Shattered Observatory and end up dropping them on top of Arkk occassionally or on Siax or puking over everybody or spawning a nightmare in 99CM because god forbid they move off the boss to do a mechanic and their precious meter drops. Same with anomalies on Arkk, you could just kill the kitten anomaly which takes less than 5 seconds to be safe instead of being a greedy kitten and trying to skip every phase and remove every challenge possible from an encounter by trying to brute force it with burst DPS. Then things go wrong when they find out not every group can burst efficiently and they throw a tantrum when said group can still pull off mechanics cleanly for a kill with no wipes.

    And yet, if there's a more efficient way of doing things by "brute forcing" through mechanics, why wouldn't you?

    Because it's

    a) A pug, which means less coordination than usual.

    One more reason to overcompensate and want better prepared players?

    b) Class comp dependent.

    To a point, there's 2, maybe 3 slots that need to be more or less fixed (the chrono, and then Druid and Banner warrior, which are both somewhat replaceable), the other slots are totally interchangeable. And even then you can replace those with other comps, but those are more risk prone, so less used. And actually need more fixed classes to compensate for the lack of the chrono.

    c)Totally irrelevant as to whether the content can be completed cleanly within a reasonable amount of time by your average PUG group.

    Is it? I don't find it irrelevant or unreasonable to expect that i don't need more than 1h to complete all fractals. And yet if i don't take a group with somewhat decent DPS and compositions, i'll very likely pass that mark, especially if i hit some of the longer fractals like SO.

    And that's really the problem. I remember when mirage was busted and people thought 13-14k DPS was ridiculously high, now they've overbuffed a bunch of power specs and now people are absurdly stupid about not bringing certain classes that would have passed muster back then because other classes now have more power creep.

    13-14k FPS busted? At PoF launch? LOL We were long past that mark.

    Back when revenant at 30-31k was considered really high in a world of 27-29k benchmarks, and now 29-30k is "trash" and gets you a torrent of whining and petty remarks by the kitten PUG who now deems any class that does not have a 33k+ benchmark as "terrible" and not wanted in a group.

    Well, you're right that there's some people that will be like that. For fractals i'll take anyone, really, and if it's going well, i'll happily carry those 1kdps guys. But if it isn't i'll start asking people below 10k DPS on ArcDPS if they can't do better. And depending on their response, a vote kick might follow.
    That's basically my benchmark for fractals, 10k DPS. Can't speak much for raids since i'm not a big expert on those since most of my guild mates left before those were a thing, and i think that's not the kind of content that's fun without a proper group. I've done several with pugs, and an allied guild, but then started having less time to play, and kinda stopped.

    It's these increasinly ramping requirements that are totally extraneous but somehow get treated as if they were vital or it's the end of the world.

    That's because the game itself lends itself to that power creep. For one, they keep adding the power creep because instead of making Elites interesting they choose to make them OP. Then it's a hard struggle to get the game to a decent balance, which previously was only starting to form when they released the new set of elites.
    Add to that the fact that Raids have Enrage Timers, which by themselves function as a pure DPS check, and you get the reason why this is such an issue.

    Well, that and because for half of this game's existence this was a basically everything goes, just play berserker gear and you'll be top notch. Now it started requiring a bit more effort and offering a bit more variety, and some people chafe.

    Sitting in a LFG waiting for 10 minutes or more for a BS warrior when taking another DPS in the amount of time you spent waiting for the BS warrior would have yielded the same clear time.

    Honestly... This sentence of yours is just demonstrative of my previous point. I've spent hours in a few other games waiting for a healer or a tank to be on so often, and now here we are complaining about a severely hyperbolic 10 minutes wait.
    I literally never had this happen to me in Fractals, and rarely in Raids. In fractals, i can do well without the banner guy, and usually play with one or two other friends who help cover the "required" slots, which helps. But even when solo, and outside CM (where i'm more careful, and also there's less people willing to go), i get a group going in usually under 5 minutes.

    1- Overcompensation for lack of coordination is already done through presumably the kill proof requirements. Class kitten as SC/qT themselves coined the term are an entirely different matter. The degree of overcompensation is also what's being discussed.

    Overcompensation for that lack of coordination is what i deem necessary. Not you. If i think that to compensate for coordination everyone must have a full Knights Reaper, that's what i'll ask of my group. It's not up to you to decide.
    Me, personally, i never, ever ask for KP. I prefer asking for people that know how to play, and have some common sense/experience, and if they fail to prove that through their performance then i act. I also prefer to take safer group comps as well. My way doesn't limit any player from joining, as long as they are willing to play required classes (which again, is usually just generic DPS, since, especially for harder content like CM and Raids i prefer to have those slots covered through me and my friends).
    Basically your way (KPs) is way more prejudiced than mine.

    2- I have run plenty of 3 DPS no BS/non-weaver stacking comps that clear fractals in less than 45 minutes.

    So have i. Depending on the fractals. Heck i've done full T4 runs with recomendeds in less than 30 minutes while carrying a friend of mine that had like 40 AP. But other times, i'll rather take a proper comp, especially in certain fractals, like uncategorized, SO, etc that are cleared MUCH faster by brute-forcing mechanics with healers and supports.

    In fact, often the greatest waste of time is when you form a group, get a scourge or revenant, and then unless your group already had a druid or chrono, the waiting times for that group to fill shoot up astronomically even with lax requirements. It's an infection that has seeped into PUG mentality just as much as when people would scoff at thieves, rangers, and necromancers in explorable dungeons.

    Again. I never took longer than 5 minutes to fill my group. I've never scoffed at any class in explorable dungeons. Again, i don't ask for meta builds, i ask for good performances. And now, thanks to DPS meters being allowed i can actually monitor mine and other people's performance based on actual numbers and not "feelings".

    3- Class comp dependency for bursting still exists. Case in point, you might have trouble skipping phases with a condi renegade or power dps chrono or condi engineer, but at the same time have pretty reasonable clearing and clean runs for each of those bosses that don't translate to more than maybe 1-2 minutes kill time difference for the CM's. It virtually hurts no one in these circumstances to just opt to do the mechanics, which is how the encounter was designed to begin with; instead of berating people because they did 12-14k DPS instead of bursting 20k+.

    Agreed. I usually prefer to do the mechanics, or at least partially do them, than brute-force. It might shave a few minutes to just do so, but i find it safer to do it "proper". BUT, i'm not going to rush to the forums to berate anyone for choosing to do so. And if my group wants to skip mechanics, i'll do that, because i know what my character can do. And when i don't, i ask.

    4- Mirage on your average PoF release CM were doing little more than 14k-15k DPS tops for most CM runs before people started whining about their easy damage, and for optimal runs of course weavers were already king. Point is, nobody whined about 13-14k DPS on CM's because outside weavers few people objected to 10-12k DPS by then.

    Sure... Yeah.. Your memory is fuzzy there mate, cause i easily recall a lot of 50k broken numbers from a few classes when PoF launched. And the average DPS benchmarks was already well into the 30K's back then.
    I still don't see anyone berating people for less than 30k dps in actual gameplay. Benchmarks are benchmarks. They're not supposed to be expected from everyone everywhere.
    I'll grant you, i haven't done a Fractal (or basically anything else) in like 2-3 months. But i don't think there would be such a drastic shift. But if that is happening everywhere, well that's nice, if people can do 30kdps solid, then the game surely progressed further into the holy broken game status.

    5- On the bare minimum, we agree. I tend to prefer a 12k DPS standard of performance for non-phase heavy fights (skorvald tends to depress the DPS of classes without snap burst a lot, and whoever gets to cream the adds first usually looks a ton better than the rest). Virtually every class spec can pull off 12k DPS. If they fail that test and land more in the 8-9k range, I whisper them the SC website at the end of the run. If they did considerably less, I usually just avoid them in future groups. I never go out of my way to humiliate people, however. Even when you carry a person, toxic aggressiveness is simply not admissible.

    Well, asking a person what build they're running, and mentioning they could probably improve is humiliating only to those without humility.

    6- Raid enrage timers are stupidly lax. They're almost nonexistent unless you have seriously screwed up mechanics and you have people in knights gear sneaked in. In all these years of raiding, and I have PuG'd a ton, I have NEVER wiped due to an enrage timer. The closest I've ever gotten was Gorseval.

    Of course you never wiped... Because when you hit that mark, people just GG.

    Hell, the hardest raid boss to do training runs in imo, Matthias, is still an extremely forgiving timer.

    People have obsessed over clear times long before DPS enrage timers existed. I suspect it's because the content is so relatively easier compared to FFXIV savage mode or WoW mythic's level of encounter complexity that since people clear the content so quickly, and there's little in terms of progression, they occupy their time instead with optimizing clear times so they can go make gold somewhere else since raiding is not particularly lucrative to begin with and even fractal CM's are hardly more lucrative than RIBA farms or spending similar amounts of time playing the AH.

    Yeah, there's a thing called speed runs, and people actually kind of compete with that. But that isn't usually what you do with PUGs. The thing about wanting to do content fast in pugs, is that, you've done that content 100's of times already, you just want to go ahead and be done with it. No one wants to do the same thing over and over again (well, some people do, but each one has their kinks).

    7- You may not have experienced it, but I have. Literally today as well after reset, where we filled a group at :45 and ended up running at :57 because the druid and chrono came in and saw no warrior, were told we would run without BS, and it became a game of dancing chairs as people came in, left, came in, left, came in, until finally we got a bunch that didn't care that a BS warrior would not join.

    Are you playing in NA? Because i've litterally NEVER have had anyone leaving because no warrior in Fractals.

    I have even carried out experiments where I swap the DPS comps in LFG to include any class that is not a weaver/guard/holo, and if a necro or revenant is in the group, wait times to fill go up substantially. Want to play power DPS chrono or even soulbeast? The moment people see two of the same class in LFG and it's not weavers or guardian, wait times also shoot up. Even in the case of having a thief in the group yields longer wait times than a full group of weaver/holo/guardian by far.

    Heck, i try to stay away from Elementalists and thieves in my fractals. Again, to each their own. I've failed more fractals from elementalists dying constantly and taking DPS away because people have to ress them than from Necromancers doing 1000DPS.

    Yes, NA. Yes, game of dancing chairs.

    No, I don't dictate to other groups what they should require. Which why, if you bothered to read my initial post, I mentioned that despite making my own groups or joining lax low essence runs, I've had some people still come in with entitlement and their preconceived notions of how groups should be run even when they themselves had the option to join a 250+ essence "BS/DRUID/CHRONO/WEAVERX3 ONLY" instead of bringing their kitten to other groups.

    It's PUG mentality, people behave like sheeple and often want to shame others for not following their preconceived notions of what a group should have.

    The whole point of LFG is to have freedom to make your own groups, but when people come in and despite clear descriptions in the LFG they feel empowered to raise a stink, and the outcome is to heavily delay your run by having to kick them and wait for a guy who doesn't mind on missing out on one of the CM boss kills, that's a kitten problem. And it should be reportable behavior that gets actioned just as much as people who use cheat links to fake KP, etc.

    If we have to replace someone in the middle of artsariv because he's being passive aggressive and trash talking people and then understandably other people don't want to join a 100CM where they miss out on one of the boss's rewards, then there should be consequences for that kind of behavior.

    It's one thing to offer suggestions for improvement ("hey, stop using focus 4 to pull the adds to Siax during last laugh affix; it screws the group over and makes CC harder"); it's another to place a target marker on a member of the group and say "the carry was heavy". Games should absolutely not tolerate adults behaving like petty brats, ever.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 19, 2018

    Imo if you're running DPS groups you need to make it clear in the LFG.
    I've joined these groups before and been criticized despite the LFG not specifying DPS.. or even experienced.
    Experienced can mean a lot of things to different people, some may think experienced means max DPS etc but to others it can mean as little as knowing the content or having beaten it a few times.

    If you want DPS then specific it as a DPS run.

    That said if it's so important to people to have the optimial DPS for the content they want to play then form a private group..
    Using the LFG is always going to put you at the whim of pugs and you can't force them to change their build and gear because it's not in your opinion good enough.
    Not everyone plays the same way and most people don't care about maxing their DPS.. because they never need to and they really don't care if a battle takes them 30 seconds longer to finish.

    Shaming them and criticizing them for it is only going to result in you getting reported for abuse or in my case I'll simply block those players and never play with them again regardless of how good the group was, I've no tolerance for that kind of elitism.. specially in content I can solo if need be.

    End of the day nobody can dictate how others play nor do they have any right to.
    There's more than enough ways to get the kind of group you want without being mean to other players.. specially when those players did nothing wrong and probably made an honest mistake when they joined your LFG.. or maybe they didn't and it was you that made the mistake and overlooked the description.
    It happens.. I know from experience.

  • Nokaru.7831Nokaru.7831 Member ✭✭
    edited November 19, 2018

    @HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:
    Are players allowed to shame others for their DPS in /say, /party, /squad, /team, /map, /whisper ... etc. with the use of the data they receive from a dps-meter?

    In a public space (/say, /team, /map) where you have less control over who you interact with I'd hope that reporting toxic and rude players would get them punished. Someone can just as easily be lying about accusations like that. In a private space (party, guild, squad) it's a bit different since you chose to play with those people thus the rules aren't as strict. It's recommended you just leave parties like that. If someone is being rude and harassing you in /whisper, it should absolutely be reported if you feel harassed by it.

    For everyone scratching their head about what DPS meters has to do with it, it probably is because it's a policy that FFXIV has. They allow memory-reading DPS meters but they have an absolute no-tolerance policy towards shaming people with that information in chat. If you said, "lul ur dps sux, gtfo trash" and kicked them, you would very likely be banned for it.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:
    Are players allowed to shame others for their DPS in /say, /party, /squad, /team, /map, /whisper ... etc. with the use of the data they receive from a dps-meter?

    With reference to Guild Wars 2 Rules of Conduct:

    1. While playing Guild Wars 2, you must respect the rights of others and their rights to play and enjoy the Game. To this end, you may not defraud, harass, threaten, embarrass or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other players. This includes posting insulting, offensive, or abusive comments about players, repeatedly sending unwanted messages, reporting players maliciously, attacking a player based on race, sexual orientation, religion, heritage, etc. Hate speech is not tolerated.

    Do the Rules of Conduct apply to this special situation, or is there a rule that allows this behavior?

    Example:
    "Player X what are you doing? Your DPS is ridiculously low? Seriously 3k? Are you playing on support? The thief over there does 13k!"

    Allowed or not?

    No difference than saying they're stupid for using 1h Sword on Spellbreaker in PvE or similar. That the data is obtained through a dps meter has nothing to do with it. Things should always be kept civil but kicking while calmly and in a friendly tone explaining to them that it's because they're an anchor isn't really harassing.

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • @PolarTitan.8519 said:
    There has been a huge problem with the community with the so called 'dps elitists'. I run Arah dungeon on a semi-frequent basis and a lot of Arah is knowing the mechanics and working as a team to efficiently go through the dungeon on a good quick run. Often in LFG we will have what I like to call "COD players". Essentially, these people will come into a group and all they care about is killing. They ignore players and their team, run with DPS meters and will spill lots of derogatory comments and attack all other players even if they are the reason the team got killed. I ran into a Warrior who was going on about how much damage you dealt to the Giganticus Lupicus and started attacking the Druid in our team saying he wasn't matching his DPS and how he should 'kill' himself. I of course screenshotted the screen justifying the kick and got a replacement who actually worked as a team. A game is supposed to be fun which requires knowledge of mechanics especially for dungeons and raids, but destroying and attacking others is not a way to help others grow so that they may help you or others in the future.

    Hold up! You get people actually using the chat in Arah?
    Man, everytime i pug it there are 1 or 2 people failing to skip and every single time i say that i portal them they ignore me, wipe for 3 or 4 more times during the skip and leave without using the chat once since they joined.
    Pugging Arah is so frustrating...

  • Noha.3749Noha.3749 Member ✭✭✭

    If someone calls outin partychat or whispers that you are doing terrible dps and need to up it to stick around that should be fine.

    If someone starts telling you you suck buttcheeks at dpsing and should go dig a grave or eat a cookie or something, now that, that wouldn´t be fine.

  • Zunki.3916Zunki.3916 Member ✭✭✭

    I didn't read all but it's very easy to me:
    Enrage timers are boss mechanics. If you don't do your part to beat the enrage timer you fundamentally don't understand the mechanic of the encounter, therefore telling you this should be fine. It's the same as writign "you forgot to throw that bomb" or "we stack on the boss". It's talking about how you do the encounter.

    This applies only if you are a dps of course.

    Viable != Optimal

    Not viable = You only get carried, 10 players with a build as "viable as yours" can't properly do it.

  • Talindra.4958Talindra.4958 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Wait a second...... So you are saying someone want to play dps has no idea he is doing only 3k dps ... this guy needs to join a training guild to learn about what he wants to play and how. If he wants to do DPs role and does only 3k DPs, that's quite rude to everyone in the group... Try other role instead like support if DPs isn't his thing. I'm not a DPs person so I don't really play that.

    Death is Energy [DIE] in EU
    Envoy's Herald, CoZ, VitV, DD, SS, The Eternal, LNHB, Champion Magus, Champion Phantom, Wondrous Achiever etc.

  • if you arent performing why shouldnt that be pointed out? sounds like someone just wants to get carried.

  • borgs.6103borgs.6103 Member ✭✭✭

    You probably deserved the shaming and can't handle the truth so you have to seek affirmation from enablers.

    Hi.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dabrixmgp.4758 said:
    if you arent performing why shouldnt that be pointed out? sounds like someone just wants to get carried.

    @borgs.6103 said:
    You probably deserved the shaming and can't handle the truth so you have to seek affirmation from enablers.

    Their is a difference between saying somebody is under performing an calling somebody names.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2018

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Dabrixmgp.4758 said:
    if you arent performing why shouldnt that be pointed out? sounds like someone just wants to get carried.

    @borgs.6103 said:
    You probably deserved the shaming and can't handle the truth so you have to seek affirmation from enablers.

    Their is a difference between saying somebody is under performing an calling somebody names.

    This, let's keep things in perspective please. While I am a strong advocate of "pull your weight", personal attacks, harassment or over the top elitism resulting in such attacks have no place in this game or any where. That's plain kitten behavior.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:
    Pointing out that your underpreforiming is shaming now, were have the world gone.
    Start your own squad/parties with no dps meters in lfg and play with like minded people mate.

    It always depends, how you are saying it.

    If you are saying: hey you piece of .... Do freaking DPS. And don't play like an idiot.

    I'd say this would be against the rules.

    But if you are like: hey, your DPS is pretty low. The profession you are playing has bigger potential and we need the extra damage for the boss. Please try to do the rotation better.

    Then I'd say this is totally fine.

  • Turin.6921Turin.6921 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2018

    @HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:
    Example:
    "Player X what are you doing? Your DPS is ridiculously low? Seriously 3k? Are you playing on support? The thief over there does 13k!"

    Allowed or not?

    The example you have given is just mildly rude about a situation that is actually real. It does not clearly creates anything that may count as a violation of the "you may not defraud, harass, threaten, embarrass or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other players" rules.

    If the message was sth like "If you do not do better i will kill you" or sth like "look at this clown doing less dps than the support". Then yes that is a violation. What you posted is not.

  • Its matters how the victim feel is harrasment some are more sensetive

  • Turin.6921Turin.6921 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2018

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    Its matters how the victim feel is harrasment some are more sensetive

    This is not how things work. Anet support is making the end decision of what is harassment and what is not. No matter how you personally feel you have to make a case to them and convince them why the act that made you feel that way objectively justifies them to take action (unless of course it is self-evident from their side). Anet is setting the standards of what is good or bad behavior (usually factoring their ideas, community feeling , common sense etc). Not your personal feelings.

    If i feel harassed by some saying hello to me, even if my feeling is genuine, Anet support will never act upon it.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭

    Asking the support to act based on the feelings of the most sensitive is like asking the balance team to change things according to the wishes of the one-handed or even those without arms. There obviously needs to be a line and it is up to ArenaNet to decide on where to put that line.

    Nothing is particularly hard if you divide it into small jobs. Henry Ford

  • @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    Its matters how the victim feel is harrasment some are more sensetive

    No, sorry to say it doesn't matter. Catering to extreme outliers is not good policy. You set rules and boundaries based on how a reasonable person would react/feel. There's a reason that courts use a "reasonable person" rule in criminal and civil cases rather than "most extreme example" rule.

  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    These are usually the same people who think they can jump bug flux bombs on Shattered Observatory and end up dropping them on top of Arkk occassionally or on Siax or puking over everybody or spawning a nightmare in 99CM because god forbid they move off the boss to do a mechanic and their precious meter drops. Same with anomalies on Arkk, you could just kill the kitten anomaly which takes less than 5 seconds to be safe instead of being a greedy kitten and trying to skip every phase and remove every challenge possible from an encounter by trying to brute force it with burst DPS. Then things go wrong when they find out not every group can burst efficiently and they throw a tantrum when said group can still pull off mechanics cleanly for a kill with no wipes.

    And yet, if there's a more efficient way of doing things by "brute forcing" through mechanics, why wouldn't you?

    cus sometimes you wanna stop and smell the roses and cus most of the time those brutforcers juts to showoff their dps ignore anything and waste my time by wiping

    I smelled the roses the first 3-10 times through... Now i want to hold my breath and plow through the content in as little time as i can. If i choose to do so, and the majority of the community does so. I don't think that people that don't "feel like" pulling their own weight have no business telling me how to play.
    What you forget is that 90% of the people have completed the content more than once, and are just going through the motions, because the game requires you to farm. If you're late to the bus, it's ok, there's a lot of people willing to teach you how to. Heck i'm willing to bet anything that most of the "elitists" i know probably spent more hours trudging through content to teach new players how to do it than anyone that complains about elitists in the forums.
    How can i say this? Easy, if you're here complaining about people that do content efficiently, odds are you don't know how to do it yourself.

    @Belorn.2659 said:
    DPS, boon sharing, CC, heals, toughness checks, blocks, pushes, special action key, condition damage, boon strip, blue circles, red orbs, eggs, bombs, mushrooms, poison, reflects, portals, stacking, buttons, pulls, hands, black, dead, green circles, light, big orbs, shackles, soul split, enforces, 10%, swords, shields, lamp...

    Each and every one of those are critical to perform correctly in raiding. They are all mechanics, and DPS is just one among many. Failure will result in player death, lost time and frustration if continued for too long. Calling out players on any of those in voice or squad chat is not harassment in of itself. Playing a game means working within the constraints of the game mechanics, and raid is designed to have more mechanics than any other game mode.

    Harassment is not about which mechanic someone is failing at, but rather how people are calling out someone. Harassing someone about reflects in mathias, getting egged in gor, missing a green at dhuum, getting picked up by during CM, or low DPS is all the same from a game rule perspective. Harassment is not allowed, but calling out people for failing mechanics is. The distinction is in how it is done.

    Exactly! The issue is, lots of people will take any criticism of their infallible selves as harassment. I mean, if someone talked to me like OP's example... I'd probably take notice of my DPS and see what's failing or just tell him to stuff it cause i'm a support chrono ^_^ But i wouldn't think of it as harassment. Yet op clearly does. I think it's also a cultural and generational problem. Some people have incredibly thin skins, so thin i'm baffled how they manage to survive in the internet.

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @Deimos.4263 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    Basically, you're asking whether ANet should punish people for being rude; they don't and they won't.

    They can and they should, at least according to their own ToS. You can inform a player their DPS is sub-par without being rude about it. It is possible.

    And yet, as polite as you are there's always people that will take any criticism as constructive as you make it, as harassment.

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    I mean, there's a difference of a person doing 3k DPS (which I don't even buy, that's just plain impossible unless you're playing a magi druid or minstrel chrono)

    Get a DPS meter... You'll be surprised. I've outdpsed "DPS" Necromancers, thieves and Elementalists on full Minstrel Chrono. There's a lot of people out there that don't know what they're doing.
    There's people that just copy the builds from the page, don't even read why the build works, or how. And then go do content and just don't do anything, because they don't know how their rotation works, don't know how to avoid taking damage, and don't know how to fight, so they die a lot (especially thieves and Eles) and don't do squat. Or simply are playing too defensive builds that have little to no synergy, and don't work.
    I've carried so many of these people on the backs of decent groups that i really lost count. People complaining about the "elitists" should shut up and be thankful that they have someone to carry them through content. Because if you're doing 1k DPS on a DPS class with a decent support component, you're not going to be doing any better outsie.

    These are usually the same people who think they can jump bug flux bombs on Shattered Observatory and end up dropping them on top of Arkk occassionally or on Siax or puking over everybody or spawning a nightmare in 99CM because god forbid they move off the boss to do a mechanic and their precious meter drops. Same with anomalies on Arkk, you could just kill the kitten anomaly which takes less than 5 seconds to be safe instead of being a greedy kitten and trying to skip every phase and remove every challenge possible from an encounter by trying to brute force it with burst DPS. Then things go wrong when they find out not every group can burst efficiently and they throw a tantrum when said group can still pull off mechanics cleanly for a kill with no wipes.

    And yet, if there's a more efficient way of doing things by "brute forcing" through mechanics, why wouldn't you?

    Because it's

    a) A pug, which means less coordination than usual.

    One more reason to overcompensate and want better prepared players?

    b) Class comp dependent.

    To a point, there's 2, maybe 3 slots that need to be more or less fixed (the chrono, and then Druid and Banner warrior, which are both somewhat replaceable), the other slots are totally interchangeable. And even then you can replace those with other comps, but those are more risk prone, so less used. And actually need more fixed classes to compensate for the lack of the chrono.

    c)Totally irrelevant as to whether the content can be completed cleanly within a reasonable amount of time by your average PUG group.

    Is it? I don't find it irrelevant or unreasonable to expect that i don't need more than 1h to complete all fractals. And yet if i don't take a group with somewhat decent DPS and compositions, i'll very likely pass that mark, especially if i hit some of the longer fractals like SO.

    And that's really the problem. I remember when mirage was busted and people thought 13-14k DPS was ridiculously high, now they've overbuffed a bunch of power specs and now people are absurdly stupid about not bringing certain classes that would have passed muster back then because other classes now have more power creep.

    13-14k FPS busted? At PoF launch? LOL We were long past that mark.

    Back when revenant at 30-31k was considered really high in a world of 27-29k benchmarks, and now 29-30k is "trash" and gets you a torrent of whining and petty remarks by the kitten PUG who now deems any class that does not have a 33k+ benchmark as "terrible" and not wanted in a group.

    Well, you're right that there's some people that will be like that. For fractals i'll take anyone, really, and if it's going well, i'll happily carry those 1kdps guys. But if it isn't i'll start asking people below 10k DPS on ArcDPS if they can't do better. And depending on their response, a vote kick might follow.
    That's basically my benchmark for fractals, 10k DPS. Can't speak much for raids since i'm not a big expert on those since most of my guild mates left before those were a thing, and i think that's not the kind of content that's fun without a proper group. I've done several with pugs, and an allied guild, but then started having less time to play, and kinda stopped.

    It's these increasinly ramping requirements that are totally extraneous but somehow get treated as if they were vital or it's the end of the world.

    That's because the game itself lends itself to that power creep. For one, they keep adding the power creep because instead of making Elites interesting they choose to make them OP. Then it's a hard struggle to get the game to a decent balance, which previously was only starting to form when they released the new set of elites.
    Add to that the fact that Raids have Enrage Timers, which by themselves function as a pure DPS check, and you get the reason why this is such an issue.

    Well, that and because for half of this game's existence this was a basically everything goes, just play berserker gear and you'll be top notch. Now it started requiring a bit more effort and offering a bit more variety, and some people chafe.

    Sitting in a LFG waiting for 10 minutes or more for a BS warrior when taking another DPS in the amount of time you spent waiting for the BS warrior would have yielded the same clear time.

    Honestly... This sentence of yours is just demonstrative of my previous point. I've spent hours in a few other games waiting for a healer or a tank to be on so often, and now here we are complaining about a severely hyperbolic 10 minutes wait.
    I literally never had this happen to me in Fractals, and rarely in Raids. In fractals, i can do well without the banner guy, and usually play with one or two other friends who help cover the "required" slots, which helps. But even when solo, and outside CM (where i'm more careful, and also there's less people willing to go), i get a group going in usually under 5 minutes.

    1- Overcompensation for lack of coordination is already done through presumably the kill proof requirements. Class kitten as SC/qT themselves coined the term are an entirely different matter. The degree of overcompensation is also what's being discussed.

    Overcompensation for that lack of coordination is what i deem necessary. Not you. If i think that to compensate for coordination everyone must have a full Knights Reaper, that's what i'll ask of my group. It's not up to you to decide.
    Me, personally, i never, ever ask for KP. I prefer asking for people that know how to play, and have some common sense/experience, and if they fail to prove that through their performance then i act. I also prefer to take safer group comps as well. My way doesn't limit any player from joining, as long as they are willing to play required classes (which again, is usually just generic DPS, since, especially for harder content like CM and Raids i prefer to have those slots covered through me and my friends).
    Basically your way (KPs) is way more prejudiced than mine.

    2- I have run plenty of 3 DPS no BS/non-weaver stacking comps that clear fractals in less than 45 minutes.

    So have i. Depending on the fractals. Heck i've done full T4 runs with recomendeds in less than 30 minutes while carrying a friend of mine that had like 40 AP. But other times, i'll rather take a proper comp, especially in certain fractals, like uncategorized, SO, etc that are cleared MUCH faster by brute-forcing mechanics with healers and supports.

    In fact, often the greatest waste of time is when you form a group, get a scourge or revenant, and then unless your group already had a druid or chrono, the waiting times for that group to fill shoot up astronomically even with lax requirements. It's an infection that has seeped into PUG mentality just as much as when people would scoff at thieves, rangers, and necromancers in explorable dungeons.

    Again. I never took longer than 5 minutes to fill my group. I've never scoffed at any class in explorable dungeons. Again, i don't ask for meta builds, i ask for good performances. And now, thanks to DPS meters being allowed i can actually monitor mine and other people's performance based on actual numbers and not "feelings".

    3- Class comp dependency for bursting still exists. Case in point, you might have trouble skipping phases with a condi renegade or power dps chrono or condi engineer, but at the same time have pretty reasonable clearing and clean runs for each of those bosses that don't translate to more than maybe 1-2 minutes kill time difference for the CM's. It virtually hurts no one in these circumstances to just opt to do the mechanics, which is how the encounter was designed to begin with; instead of berating people because they did 12-14k DPS instead of bursting 20k+.

    Agreed. I usually prefer to do the mechanics, or at least partially do them, than brute-force. It might shave a few minutes to just do so, but i find it safer to do it "proper". BUT, i'm not going to rush to the forums to berate anyone for choosing to do so. And if my group wants to skip mechanics, i'll do that, because i know what my character can do. And when i don't, i ask.

    4- Mirage on your average PoF release CM were doing little more than 14k-15k DPS tops for most CM runs before people started whining about their easy damage, and for optimal runs of course weavers were already king. Point is, nobody whined about 13-14k DPS on CM's because outside weavers few people objected to 10-12k DPS by then.

    Sure... Yeah.. Your memory is fuzzy there mate, cause i easily recall a lot of 50k broken numbers from a few classes when PoF launched. And the average DPS benchmarks was already well into the 30K's back then.
    I still don't see anyone berating people for less than 30k dps in actual gameplay. Benchmarks are benchmarks. They're not supposed to be expected from everyone everywhere.
    I'll grant you, i haven't done a Fractal (or basically anything else) in like 2-3 months. But i don't think there would be such a drastic shift. But if that is happening everywhere, well that's nice, if people can do 30kdps solid, then the game surely progressed further into the holy broken game status.

    5- On the bare minimum, we agree. I tend to prefer a 12k DPS standard of performance for non-phase heavy fights (skorvald tends to depress the DPS of classes without snap burst a lot, and whoever gets to cream the adds first usually looks a ton better than the rest). Virtually every class spec can pull off 12k DPS. If they fail that test and land more in the 8-9k range, I whisper them the SC website at the end of the run. If they did considerably less, I usually just avoid them in future groups. I never go out of my way to humiliate people, however. Even when you carry a person, toxic aggressiveness is simply not admissible.

    Well, asking a person what build they're running, and mentioning they could probably improve is humiliating only to those without humility.

    6- Raid enrage timers are stupidly lax. They're almost nonexistent unless you have seriously screwed up mechanics and you have people in knights gear sneaked in. In all these years of raiding, and I have PuG'd a ton, I have NEVER wiped due to an enrage timer. The closest I've ever gotten was Gorseval.

    Of course you never wiped... Because when you hit that mark, people just GG.

    Hell, the hardest raid boss to do training runs in imo, Matthias, is still an extremely forgiving timer.

    People have obsessed over clear times long before DPS enrage timers existed. I suspect it's because the content is so relatively easier compared to FFXIV savage mode or WoW mythic's level of encounter complexity that since people clear the content so quickly, and there's little in terms of progression, they occupy their time instead with optimizing clear times so they can go make gold somewhere else since raiding is not particularly lucrative to begin with and even fractal CM's are hardly more lucrative than RIBA farms or spending similar amounts of time playing the AH.

    Yeah, there's a thing called speed runs, and people actually kind of compete with that. But that isn't usually what you do with PUGs. The thing about wanting to do content fast in pugs, is that, you've done that content 100's of times already, you just want to go ahead and be done with it. No one wants to do the same thing over and over again (well, some people do, but each one has their kinks).

    7- You may not have experienced it, but I have. Literally today as well after reset, where we filled a group at :45 and ended up running at :57 because the druid and chrono came in and saw no warrior, were told we would run without BS, and it became a game of dancing chairs as people came in, left, came in, left, came in, until finally we got a bunch that didn't care that a BS warrior would not join.

    Are you playing in NA? Because i've litterally NEVER have had anyone leaving because no warrior in Fractals.

    I have even carried out experiments where I swap the DPS comps in LFG to include any class that is not a weaver/guard/holo, and if a necro or revenant is in the group, wait times to fill go up substantially. Want to play power DPS chrono or even soulbeast? The moment people see two of the same class in LFG and it's not weavers or guardian, wait times also shoot up. Even in the case of having a thief in the group yields longer wait times than a full group of weaver/holo/guardian by far.

    Heck, i try to stay away from Elementalists and thieves in my fractals. Again, to each their own. I've failed more fractals from elementalists dying constantly and taking DPS away because people have to ress them than from Necromancers doing 1000DPS.

    Yes, NA. Yes, game of dancing chairs.

    That explains your problem... In the EU, apparently people are more civilized, and since the pop is larger there's less wait times.

    No, I don't dictate to other groups what they should require. Which why, if you bothered to read my initial post, I mentioned that despite making my own groups or joining lax low essence runs, I've had some people still come in with entitlement and their preconceived notions of how groups should be run even when they themselves had the option to join a 250+ essence "BS/DRUID/CHRONO/WEAVERX3 ONLY" instead of bringing their kitten to other groups.

    It's PUG mentality, people behave like sheeple and often want to shame others for not following their preconceived notions of what a group should have.

    It's more common sense. Being "unique" and "thinking outside the box" more often than not simply boils down to being wrong. Just look at all the "unique" people in the conspiracy theory groups.
    The game has matured enough for people to have recognized a pattern of performance. That dictates a lot, if you look at someone's DPS and it's below 10k, that person is surely not pulling their weight (exceptions made for support builds).
    Most of the time, in my experience, except for the support slots, which whether you like it or not, will speed up runs, people are very lax about the DPS slots. With the unspoken agreement that you're expected to have at least a decent DPS.
    It's like when you meet someone for the first time, there's nothing pre-arranged, there's no sign above his head saying "shake my hand, don't punch my face", and yet you shake that person's hand, and won't punch his face.
    Same thing in the PUG, the majority of people recognize that to do their part, they either have to do a decent support build, and provide boons/healing to the group, or have enough DPS to be a proper contribution.
    Of course there's the "special" and "unique" players that rather not contribute to the group, and make a statement about how "unique" they are. Of course, they underperform and get kicked. Because, matey, you can have the most absurd build in the world, but if it does 15k DPS consistently no one will annoy you about it, if anything they'll want to know how it works.

    The thing is, GuildWars 2 for all it's variety, if you're actually trying to maximize the efficiency of your build, and you're half decent at theory crafting, you'll always land on a build that's at least very similar to a "meta" build. Because there's only so many combinations of traits, stats and skills that can put out that much DPS. Sure you might have a different trait or two, or even a different trait line, you might run a slightly different stat set, different runes, sigils, etc. But if you're a serious theory crafter and you're aiming to maximize DPS, you'll usually have the same major points on your build as the "meta" ones. It's not meta because one guy decided "this is meta now", you know?

    The whole point of LFG is to have freedom to make your own groups, but when people come in and despite clear descriptions in the LFG they feel empowered to raise a stink, and the outcome is to heavily delay your run by having to kick them and wait for a guy who doesn't mind on missing out on one of the CM boss kills, that's a kitten problem. And it should be reportable behavior that gets actioned just as much as people who use cheat links to fake KP, etc.

    Again, there's a point where you stop being "casual" and "relaxed" and you start being a leecher, just progressing from other people's efforts. And, no matter what it says in the group's description (unless it's "i want to leech of of you") people have the right to complain about someone underperforming.
    A few words in a LFG title don't give you power over someone's time or actions.

    If we have to replace someone in the middle of artsariv because he's being passive aggressive and trash talking people and then understandably other people don't want to join a 100CM where they miss out on one of the boss's rewards, then there should be consequences for that kind of behavior.

    Yeah, you kicked him out of the group, now he's going to have to repeat the same stuff again.

    It's one thing to offer suggestions for improvement ("hey, stop using focus 4 to pull the adds to Siax during last laugh affix; it screws the group over and makes CC harder"); it's another to place a target marker on a member of the group and say "the carry was heavy". Games should absolutely not tolerate adults behaving like petty brats, ever.

    Why not? If i'm carrying you, why can't i point that out?
    Again some people don't realize they are not doing well, because, thanks to people behaving like you seen in this thread, blaming DPS meters for all the evils in the world, they don't use them. That means that if you don't point it out, they won't ever realize they're just leeching of groups.
    Are there politer ways to do that? Sure.
    But then again, there's also a polite way to not go into a group and hope they carry you through CM content. That is by practising, and maybe get ArcDPS, or test your rotations in the raid golem. So you can tell if you're doing well.
    Assigning yourself a "PASS" because it "feels" that you're performing well, doesn't mean you're actually doing so.

    @Teratus.2859 Most people don't run "DPS" groups. Like i said before, there's more or less a consensus on what is a good performance. Usually people will use a number between 8-15k DPS, i look for 10kDPS in DPS classes, but won't say anything if you're doing 8-9k, especially in Banner Warriors, who usually lose some damage boosts from having to slot in banners. If you're running under that, unless you're on a support build, or simply not contributing to the group, regardless of the scope.

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Dabrixmgp.4758 said:
    if you arent performing why shouldnt that be pointed out? sounds like someone just wants to get carried.

    @borgs.6103 said:
    You probably deserved the shaming and can't handle the truth so you have to seek affirmation from enablers.

    Their is a difference between saying somebody is under performing an calling somebody names.

    That difference is heavily lost for most people, actually.
    Here's an example from another game, since i haven't been playing GW2 seriously lately:
    A couple days ago, i was running a specific content in Warframe, where you just have to endure waves of minions for a set time, it's somewhat high-end content, but i have a nice little build that allows me to wipe away the map in a second or so.
    I was plying with two other guys, doing 80% of the group's damage, one of the other guys was actually trying to do something, the other was standing somewhat near me with a frame that is basically unkillable, but doing nothing else.
    The guy that was trying went down (there's a down mechanic similar to GW2, except you can't rally by yourself, you need to be ressed), and the other guy didn't move, so i had to stop carrying them to go and ress the other guy.
    When the down guy thanked me, i said "NP, that other guy could have helped though".
    Well, it was like i had insulted his mother man... If you read that chat.

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    Its matters how the victim feel is harrasment some are more sensetive

    Then they should grow thicker skin and mature a bit, because this applies not only to the game, but to life in general. If you're doing a bad job at your work, someone will point it out to you, and depending on your job, it can get down to downright rude. If you're unable to cope, you might try to sue for harassment, but you'll most likely lose.

    It's not how the "victim feels" it's how much the person did or did not breach the rules of civility that are pretty much universal. Even if a person's rude as hell, there's still a large step from being rude to harassment. And people need to understand that difference otherwise, well... It usually never ends well.
    Like the example that the OP gave, while it might be considered mildly rude, it's nowhere near harassment. Insults, and foul language, if persistent might consist of harassment, threats and demeaning language, especially if made in a context that's definitely not playful, that is harassment and/or causing distress.

    Saying that someone's DPS is "ridiculously low", can be simply a statement of fact. I mean if someone's going under 1k DPS not being a support class (seen it happen), that's ridiculously low, that's the most adequate qualifier of how low the DPS is. It's so low its unreasonable and laughable.

    PS: When i write "you" i'm not mentioning yourself specific, more like "they", it's a language quirk from my native language that i'm often unable to curb.

  • Hi/Hello/Bonjour/Guten Tag/Buenos dias,
    Thank you and sorry,
    I don't want to bother you nor offend you, I was just looking at general DPS and I noted you did less than half the recommended DPS. Sorry to bother you but can you look at your equipment and your rotation to improve your DPS ?
    Please don't take that like an offense.
    Thank you and sorry.

  • Nepster.4275Nepster.4275 Member ✭✭✭

    As of now with this balance i dont see any reason to do very small DPS, the most meta class as pDPS is thief with a very easy rota.Almost all classes are performing on good level, and low dps is subjective. I hate to point this out in PUGs for example but doing low DPS and failing mechanics is like coming to school without your homework done.
    If you want to learn stuff read up and go with training runs, they dont complain about stuff, and even if you get blamed in a training run that your DPS is low then the problem is you.I dont agree with being a jerk as far as low DPS goes, but on the other side dont be sore if people point out that you dont have your stuff right. End game content made for people who know everything about their class atleast and want to enjoy some hard stuff. Doing low DPS means you either dont have enough time on the class or you just want to leech stuff. Raids are nowhere to hard, especially in this game where chronos upkeep protection on you and druids can smash on the keyboard and keep everyone alive, both reqs some IQ but nothing that coudnt be done with 30-40 mins of practice.

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