DPS shaming - Page 3 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

DPS shaming

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  • do not shame your famiry

    pew~

  • I love how the argument for DPS meters in this game went from:
    A: "We don't need them and shouldn't have them. You're going to use this as a weapon against other players."
    B: "No, no, DPS meters are cool. We just need them to improve our own performance."

    To:
    A: "Okay, seriously, you're using this as a weapon against other players."
    B: "This is totally fine. Those filthy casual leechers should never have joined in the first place."

    Stay classy, folks.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @cthaeh.2168 said:
    I love how the argument for DPS meters in this game went from:
    A: "We don't need them and shouldn't have them. You're going to use this as a weapon against other players."
    B: "No, no, DPS meters are cool. We just need them to improve our own performance."

    To:
    A: "Okay, seriously, you're using this as a weapon against other players."
    B: "This is totally fine. Those filthy casual leechers should never have joined in the first place."

    Stay classy, folks.

    Some of us knew this is what would happen and are sitting around just watching the house burn down because we called it. Its sad to say but this community and its playerbase has gotten arguably worse since they where allowed.(time to get jumped by everyone).

    Ember Wandertooth(SB), Lucina Fallenflame(Weaver), Kianda Redpaw(Guardian), Kingslayer, Light in the Dark.
    Why Guild Wars is called Guild Wars

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2018

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @cthaeh.2168 said:
    I love how the argument for DPS meters in this game went from:
    A: "We don't need them and shouldn't have them. You're going to use this as a weapon against other players."
    B: "No, no, DPS meters are cool. We just need them to improve our own performance."

    To:
    A: "Okay, seriously, you're using this as a weapon against other players."
    B: "This is totally fine. Those filthy casual leechers should never have joined in the first place."

    Stay classy, folks.

    Some of us knew this is what would happen and are sitting around just watching the house burn down because we called it. Its sad to say but this community and its playerbase has gotten arguably worse since they where allowed.(time to get jumped by everyone).

    What tangible action and routes for improvement would you propose to groups who are consistently wiping on bosses in a world without combat logs and parsers?

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2018

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @cthaeh.2168 said:
    I love how the argument for DPS meters in this game went from:
    A: "We don't need them and shouldn't have them. You're going to use this as a weapon against other players."
    B: "No, no, DPS meters are cool. We just need them to improve our own performance."

    To:
    A: "Okay, seriously, you're using this as a weapon against other players."
    B: "This is totally fine. Those filthy casual leechers should never have joined in the first place."

    Stay classy, folks.

    Some of us knew this is what would happen and are sitting around just watching the house burn down because we called it. Its sad to say but this community and its playerbase has gotten arguably worse since they where allowed.(time to get jumped by everyone).

    What tangible action and routes for improvement would you propose to groups who are consistently wiping on bosses in a world without combat logs and parsers?

    Before we even get into this discussion, it should be said that this discussion has been on going before raids where ever implemented and it has gone down exactly as @cthaeh.2168 has said it did, and it should be noted that i love raids as well.

    Its called trial and error. Long ago we had these things called dungeons, and they had mechanics that could cause groups to fail if not done properly, and guess what, players learned them without DPS meters being in game. Fractals where the same way.

    Players survived, and learned, and got better without them before, they can do so now as well.

    The ONLY good thing that has come out of dps meters is people can see that classes arent useless(necro and ranger, which would get kicked on sight), which with the addition of the DPS golem in the training area would still have happened.

    Everything else theyve done, hasnt been healthy to the games community imo.

    Ember Wandertooth(SB), Lucina Fallenflame(Weaver), Kianda Redpaw(Guardian), Kingslayer, Light in the Dark.
    Why Guild Wars is called Guild Wars

  • @Dante.1763 said:
    Its called trial and error. Long ago we had these things called dungeons, and they had mechanics that could cause groups to fail if not done properly, and guess what, players learned them without DPS meters being in game.

    And as soon as they figured them out and put them on farm we had a meta where people got insta-kicked for the wrong class just like we do now.

    The ONLY good thing that has come out of dps meters is people can see that classes arent useless(necro and ranger, which would get kicked on sight), which with the addition of the DPS golem in the training area would still have happened.

    But still we hear the same tired speeches by necro-mains booty-bothered about not getting raid spots and rangers who get insta kicked in WvW to this day.
    I may not use or support the use of DPS meters personally, but I am not going pretend ARC created the drama, made it any better or worsened the community in any way.

    The only thing different different is raw numbers power the toxicity.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:
    Its called trial and error. Long ago we had these things called dungeons, and they had mechanics that could cause groups to fail if not done properly, and guess what, players learned them without DPS meters being in game.

    And as soon as they figured them out and put them on farm we had a meta where people got insta-kicked for the wrong class just like we do now.

    Ive yet to get kicked for any of the classes i play in raids, granted i dont pug, so i cant speak to that.

    The ONLY good thing that has come out of dps meters is people can see that classes arent useless(necro and ranger, which would get kicked on sight), which with the addition of the DPS golem in the training area would still have happened.

    But still we hear the same tired speeches by necro-mains booty-bothered about not getting raid spots and rangers who get insta kicked in WvW to this day.
    I may not use or support the use of DPS meters personally, but I am not going pretend ARC created the drama, made it any better or worsened the community in any way.

    The only thing different different is raw numbers power the toxicity.

    Necros i can understand in raids, every other class(well, thieves are a more recent addition) but them is welcome by the general raiding public. Rangers in WvW is just a case of players wanting their class to be good at something that its not meant to be good at.

    Im not pretending it did, the drama started literal years before the first DPS meter was created, shortly after launch. The difference was anet flat out refused to allow them, and using them was a bannable offense. Anet caved to a vocal group(not going to say minority here, cause i never did count the number of unique people posting like i used to with other topics), and they got allowed, now we get to deal with both sides of DPS meters being toxic to each other, which is something i said way back then. Should they have been allowed? I dont know, imo, i think an ingame personal(ONLY) should have been added that way players could see their DPS/mechanics etc constantly, but only their own.

    Ember Wandertooth(SB), Lucina Fallenflame(Weaver), Kianda Redpaw(Guardian), Kingslayer, Light in the Dark.
    Why Guild Wars is called Guild Wars

  • Are players allowed to shame others...

    No need to read anything else. No, you are not allowed to shame others in a game like this, not for any reason. What this have to do with fractal, raids or anything else? Its about being and acting like a human being.

  • Laila Lightness.8742Laila Lightness.8742 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2018

    @Condutas.3580 said:
    Are players allowed to shame others...

    No need to read anything else. No, you are not allowed to shame others in a game like this, not for any reason. What this have to do with fractal, raids or anything else? Its about being and acting like a human being.

    Problem here he or she or hen feel shamed for he wasnt allowed to leech and thinks its unfair to kick someone who under perform

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2018

    Depends on the context and how people word their statements. There is a difference between shaming someone and simply speaking the truth even if some people really can't tell the difference. They sometimes act as if someone just called them "a fat cow" when the actual words were along the lines of "you are a little overweight". If you can't handle having someone point out your damage is low, when it actually is low, then you are the one at fault.
    I am against someone acting like an obnoxious jerk of course and I am not saying those don't exist but every story has two sides. And it is rather trendy to act the victim in some spectacular cases nowadays.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • Dami.5046Dami.5046 Member ✭✭✭

    DPS meters in my opinion shouldn't be allowed in any game. If there was any a source of grieving that is it.

  • Susy.7529Susy.7529 Member ✭✭✭

    And this is why the use of arc should be perma banned from Anet.

  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Susy.7529 said:
    And this is why the use of arc should be perma banned from Anet.

    This being? I'll grant you that, ban DPS meters from the game.
    But then, we go back to the old days where the only metrics will be KP, AP and class. So if you think you're getting "harassed" now, then when you start seeing yourself unable to play anything but the top meta elite specs and builds, then you'll be crying for a DPS meter back.

  • Zaraki.5784Zaraki.5784 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2018

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @Susy.7529 said:
    And this is why the use of arc should be perma banned from Anet.

    This being? I'll grant you that, ban DPS meters from the game.
    But then, we go back to the old days where the only metrics will be KP, AP and class. So if you think you're getting "harassed" now, then when you start seeing yourself unable to play anything but the top meta elite specs and builds, then you'll be crying for a DPS meter back.

    Those methods (KPs and classes) still exists and are the most used everywhere, it's just that now exists arc, in addition to those.

    "Sticks and stones may break your bones but words will never be able to injure you!"
    The Grim Adventures of Billy & Mandy

  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zaraki.5784 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @Susy.7529 said:
    And this is why the use of arc should be perma banned from Anet.

    This being? I'll grant you that, ban DPS meters from the game.
    But then, we go back to the old days where the only metrics will be KP, AP and class. So if you think you're getting "harassed" now, then when you start seeing yourself unable to play anything but the top meta elite specs and builds, then you'll be crying for a DPS meter back.

    Those methods (KPs and classes) still exists and are the most used everywhere, it's just that now exists arc, in addition to those.

    And which one do you think is the fairest? KP is a proof that you know the mechanics of the encounter (theoretically - there's a lot of people that bought runs and still doesn't know what they're doing although they own legendary armour), and is usually only used for CM and Raids where mechanics are demanding. For other content (Fractals) you don't get asked for KP, but you can still be hindering other players if playing incompetently.
    People that use Arc won't discriminate by classes, for the most part, some are incompetent, like there's people using "meta" builds and classes and still don't know what they're doing. Imitating something and going through the motions doesn't mean that they know what they're doing. But those that do, and that's the majority have a better tool than what class you play.

    Also, the fact that there's some methods already used doesn't mean they are less random and prejudiced. DPS meters are unbiased, they show your performance in a number which is easily comparable with a standard or an average, without those all that's left for players to sort out their companions (and people will want to do that, time is limited and most people don't want to spend theirs babysitting) is arbitrary standards, which everyone should want to avoid, especially those that want to play "non-meta" builds, since those will be excluded automatically without a DPS read to back them off.

    And while you might say the game has a "DPS meter" in the golem training area... Well i'd like to see the logistics of having to go there every time you join a group, and there's the fact that i don't think it shares other people's results does it?

  • Zaraki.5784Zaraki.5784 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2018

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @Zaraki.5784 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @Susy.7529 said:
    And this is why the use of arc should be perma banned from Anet.

    This being? I'll grant you that, ban DPS meters from the game.
    But then, we go back to the old days where the only metrics will be KP, AP and class. So if you think you're getting "harassed" now, then when you start seeing yourself unable to play anything but the top meta elite specs and builds, then you'll be crying for a DPS meter back.

    Those methods (KPs and classes) still exists and are the most used everywhere, it's just that now exists arc, in addition to those.

    And which one do you think is the fairest? KP is a proof that you know the mechanics of the encounter (theoretically - there's a lot of people that bought runs and still doesn't know what they're doing although they own legendary armour), and is usually only used for CM and Raids where mechanics are demanding. For other content (Fractals) you don't get asked for KP, but you can still be hindering other players if playing incompetently.
    People that use Arc won't discriminate by classes, for the most part, some are incompetent, like there's people using "meta" builds and classes and still don't know what they're doing. Imitating something and going through the motions doesn't mean that they know what they're doing. But those that do, and that's the majority have a better tool than what class you play.

    Also, the fact that there's some methods already used doesn't mean they are less random and prejudiced. DPS meters are unbiased, they show your performance in a number which is easily comparable with a standard or an average, without those all that's left for players to sort out their companions (and people will want to do that, time is limited and most people don't want to spend theirs babysitting) is arbitrary standards, which everyone should want to avoid, especially those that want to play "non-meta" builds, since those will be excluded automatically without a DPS read to back them off.

    And while you might say the game has a "DPS meter" in the golem training area... Well i'd like to see the logistics of having to go there every time you join a group, and there's the fact that i don't think it shares other people's results does it?

    It's not a matter of the fairest meter, I meant that things has become more complex instead of more simple, from a 1 layer to 2 layers security check.
    Before you had to ping/show your stuff. Stop.
    Now you have to FIRST ping/show your stuff, THEN do enough dps to satisfy the standard or whatever the commander of your group think the standard is.
    But if you want to talk about fair meters then imho both those 2 layers must be eliminated in order to have a healthier game becouse noone must have the ability to check others in any way.
    People should merge in parties/squads with people with different levels, ranging from pros to newbies. It would take much time for pros and it would take less time for newbs than it usually takes to complete fract/raid, instead of splitting the community in training and KPs groups and creating salty topics like this one, where 2 opposite views clash with no chances of agreements.
    Alas most so called "pros" are permanently in a hurry state, wanting to complete everything as fast as possible and a big part of newbs would't want or wouldn' be able to learn preferring to be carried instead, thus such a solution would cause a verbal war so things will stay as they are, with 2 opposite groups in the community.

    "Sticks and stones may break your bones but words will never be able to injure you!"
    The Grim Adventures of Billy & Mandy

  • Blaeys.3102Blaeys.3102 Member ✭✭✭

    The other big problem with DPS meters is that they encourage selfish individualized gameplay that often runs counter to the needs of the group. Dodge that damage? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter? Rez that healer? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter. Move poison out of the squad? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter. Share that boon? Better not - (you get the idea).

    Some people look at meters as this great tool, but the truth is they usually hurt far more than they help, even in top level competitive groups.

  • @Blaeys.3102 said:
    The other big problem with DPS meters is that they encourage selfish individualized gameplay that often runs counter to the needs of the group. Dodge that damage? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter? Rez that healer? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter. Move poison out of the squad? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter. Share that boon? Better not - (you get the idea).

    Some people look at meters as this great tool, but the truth is they usually hurt far more than they help, even in top level competitive groups.

    Ironic healer is might provider dead healer means lower dps

  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zaraki.5784 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @Zaraki.5784 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @Susy.7529 said:
    And this is why the use of arc should be perma banned from Anet.

    This being? I'll grant you that, ban DPS meters from the game.
    But then, we go back to the old days where the only metrics will be KP, AP and class. So if you think you're getting "harassed" now, then when you start seeing yourself unable to play anything but the top meta elite specs and builds, then you'll be crying for a DPS meter back.

    Those methods (KPs and classes) still exists and are the most used everywhere, it's just that now exists arc, in addition to those.

    And which one do you think is the fairest? KP is a proof that you know the mechanics of the encounter (theoretically - there's a lot of people that bought runs and still doesn't know what they're doing although they own legendary armour), and is usually only used for CM and Raids where mechanics are demanding. For other content (Fractals) you don't get asked for KP, but you can still be hindering other players if playing incompetently.
    People that use Arc won't discriminate by classes, for the most part, some are incompetent, like there's people using "meta" builds and classes and still don't know what they're doing. Imitating something and going through the motions doesn't mean that they know what they're doing. But those that do, and that's the majority have a better tool than what class you play.

    Also, the fact that there's some methods already used doesn't mean they are less random and prejudiced. DPS meters are unbiased, they show your performance in a number which is easily comparable with a standard or an average, without those all that's left for players to sort out their companions (and people will want to do that, time is limited and most people don't want to spend theirs babysitting) is arbitrary standards, which everyone should want to avoid, especially those that want to play "non-meta" builds, since those will be excluded automatically without a DPS read to back them off.

    And while you might say the game has a "DPS meter" in the golem training area... Well i'd like to see the logistics of having to go there every time you join a group, and there's the fact that i don't think it shares other people's results does it?

    It's not a matter of the fairest meter, I meant that things has become more complex instead of more simple, from a 1 layer to 2 layers security check.
    Before you had to ping/show your stuff. Stop.

    You never had that...

    Now you have to FIRST ping/show your stuff, THEN do enough dps to satisfy the standard or whatever the commander of your group think the standard is.
    But if you want to talk about fair meters then imho both those 2 layers must be eliminated in order to have a healthier game becouse noone must have the ability to check others in any way.

    Why? Because people want to save time by wasting others? GW2 has coddled this behaviour for too long, and if anything good has come out of raids was that it upped the ante so that that behaviour had to be controlled, which left devs with no other choice but allow DPS meters.
    Every other game has gear score and/or equipment inspections, because they know that worse than a frustrated player that doesn't invest time in the game, it's a frustrated player that does, because who do you think will be more prone to spending money on the game? The layabout, or the active "perfectionist"?

    People should merge in parties/squads with people with different levels, ranging from pros to newbies. It would take much time for pros and it would take less time for newbs than it usually takes to complete fract/raid, instead of splitting the community in training and KPs groups and creating salty topics like this one, where 2 opposite views clash with no chances of agreements.

    Why? Explain, what do you think is the result of this mix? Except perpetuating the state of people not bothering to learn the game and getting used to be carried. Because for the most part, this is what happened for the first 2-3 years of the game, when dungeons were the primary content and Fractals less so, people would just get carried by the 1-2 competent players in the team, and be ok with that. You still see this in World bosses and other open world stuff, just join a raid, pop open a DPS meter and out of 10-30 people ore more, you'll see 2-5 doing 80% or more of the DPS.
    Then when those that were coddled and carried hit a proper obstacle, like "high-tier" Fractals and Raids, they get frustrated because they're deemed incompetent for that level of content, and some will learn and improve, others will whine in the forums.

    Alas most so called "pros" are permanently in a hurry state, wanting to complete everything as fast as possible and a big part of newbs would't want or wouldn' be able to learn preferring to be carried instead, thus such a solution would cause a verbal war so things will stay as they are, with 2 opposite groups in the community.

    It's not opposite. I've probably spent more hours doing Fractals to teach others how to do Fractals than most people complaining about DPS meters have done Fractals.
    In fact, back when you had to do levels in sequence to unlock them, i was held back at 20 for ages because i'd be constantly going back to doing 1-10 to get my guild mates up to speed.
    But when i want to get my dailies done, or have a goal in mind other than teaching and helping others, i don't want to be stuck doing that all over again. There's a time and a place, and when i'm doing a random LFG, i expect others to show the same respect i show them, by not expecting them to carry me, so i don't expect to be asked to carry them.
    It's basic human decency and social behaviour.

  • Walhalla.5473Walhalla.5473 Member ✭✭✭

    One question to the people who want DPS-Meters to be banned. What do you think will happen after such a ban?

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zaraki.5784 said:
    It's not a matter of the fairest meter, I meant that things has become more complex instead of more simple, from a 1 layer to 2 layers security check.
    Before you had to ping/show your stuff. Stop.
    Now you have to FIRST ping/show your stuff, THEN do enough dps to satisfy the standard or whatever the commander of your group think the standard is.
    But if you want to talk about fair meters then imho both those 2 layers must be eliminated in order to have a healthier game becouse noone must have the ability to check others in any way.

    First of all it's not a double layer elimination situation. It's only the one layer with KP/LI. If you meet those (and not faking) you most likely won't be kicked at all because you are able to pull your weight. The DPS meter function as a control tool for the commander/raid in troubleshooting. I haven't seen many kicks due to failing a certain dps threshold when I pugged lately.
    Secondly, it was already stated: If you delete arcdps and KPs/LIs from the equation people will go back to other requirement sources, most likely certain classes on certain bosses. And you would be kicked when failing mechanics once or 2 downstates in one try for example although you could have been top dps and your healer is mediocre/bad. We would definitely see people asking for AP again and I couldn't join with my twink account because not having 5k APs but all bosses down, precursor armor and enough LIs.

    People should merge in parties/squads with people with different levels, ranging from pros to newbies. It would take much time for pros and it would take less time for newbs than it usually takes to complete fract/raid, instead of splitting the community in training and KPs groups and creating salty topics like this one, where 2 opposite views clash with no chances of agreements.
    Alas most so called "pros" are permanently in a hurry state, wanting to complete everything as fast as possible and a big part of newbs would't want or wouldn' be able to learn preferring to be carried instead, thus such a solution would cause a verbal war so things will stay as they are, with 2 opposite groups in the community.

    No thank you. It wouldn't just take more time. People would also be very frustrated and yelling at each other especially when a new player fails a mechanic for the 999th time. The thing is GW2 in it's core content is a very easy game and you can have fun in almost every area without having a decent amount of skill. That's not true for raids, fractal CMs (and maybe Mai & Ooze Thaumanova, lol), PvP in the higher leagues and organized WvW.
    You just can't step into raids with random beginners and think that you'll beat a boss in one evening. It's not going to happen because the average GW2 player has no clue about mechanics themselves, their own class with useful traits & skills and how to properly play within a team. Not having the right gear can be a problem you sometimes cannot solve within an hour with inexperienced players.
    And sure, you can teach them but you need at least one player with knowledge. This is what we then call a "training raid" and they exist, are organized in discords, reddit and sometimes in the lfg. But don't expect me, a veteran player who works every day, to be forced to play with random strangers and enjoying to wipe not knowing if I'll beat the boss or not although I have mastered the fight myself. It would be so frustrating making me leave the game and not spending any more € to a thing I play since almost 6 years now!

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    The other big problem with DPS meters is that they encourage selfish individualized gameplay that often runs counter to the needs of the group. Dodge that damage? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter? Rez that healer? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter. Move poison out of the squad? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter. Share that boon? Better not - (you get the idea).

    Some people look at meters as this great tool, but the truth is they usually hurt far more than they help, even in top level competitive groups.

    No. That's why you consult the combat parser and look at his mechanics failed and times he stopped to res. The tool provides all of this information but people don't think to look at this. This is not an issue with the tool but peoples ability to do proper analysis.

  • @Vinceman.4572 said: >
    But don't expect me, a veteran player who works every day, to be forced to play with random strangers and enjoying to wipe not knowing if I'll beat the boss or not although I have mastered the fight myself.

    Don't worry, I'll force you to enjoy wiping with your guildies instead. Now let me just pull this Seeker over here...

  • Blaeys.3102Blaeys.3102 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2018

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    The other big problem with DPS meters is that they encourage selfish individualized gameplay that often runs counter to the needs of the group. Dodge that damage? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter? Rez that healer? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter. Move poison out of the squad? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter. Share that boon? Better not - (you get the idea).

    Some people look at meters as this great tool, but the truth is they usually hurt far more than they help, even in top level competitive groups.

    No. That's why you consult the combat parser and look at his mechanics failed and times he stopped to res. The tool provides all of this information but people don't think to look at this. This is not an issue with the tool but peoples ability to do proper analysis.

    The problem is a lot of raiders don't think about that part mid-fight. They only care about whether or not their name is above everyone else's on the meter - which leads to meters making the overall group's dps lower for the ego of a single player.

    If meters were limited to the individual - you can only see your personal dps/statistics, it would solve the problem of toxicity, give people a way to improve and eliminate the need to constantly measure your worth to the group based on how you measure up to everyone else there.

  • Easiest solution would be to ban the use of all dps meters. If people can't learn to play nicely based on them, then remove them.

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2018

    @Blaeys.3102 said:

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    The other big problem with DPS meters is that they encourage selfish individualized gameplay that often runs counter to the needs of the group. Dodge that damage? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter? Rez that healer? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter. Move poison out of the squad? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter. Share that boon? Better not - (you get the idea).

    Some people look at meters as this great tool, but the truth is they usually hurt far more than they help, even in top level competitive groups.

    No. That's why you consult the combat parser and look at his mechanics failed and times he stopped to res. The tool provides all of this information but people don't think to look at this. This is not an issue with the tool but peoples ability to do proper analysis.

    The problem is a lot of raiders don't think about that part mid-fight. They only care about whether or not their name is above everyone else's on the meter - which leads to meters making the overall group's dps lower for the ego of a single player.

    If meters were limited to the individual - you can only see your personal dps/statistics, it would solve the problem of toxicity, give people a way to improve and eliminate the need to constantly measure your worth to the group based on how you measure up to everyone else there.

    And completely eliminate the ability to triage root causes of wipes. Also in the hundreds of pug runs I've had I can literally count on 1 hand how many people made comments about being at the top of meter standings. Instead the most common comment is when a dps is lower than the bs by a significant margin at which point it's no longer about greeding.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Easier solution would be to add an easy mode, similar to what we have with the lair of the snowmen. Been doing it consistently with Pugs since release.

  • Before DPS meters the only DPS that was allowed into Raids was Ele because they could get higher Golem Numbers, when it turns out in Practise, in an actual raid setting, the DPS of classes were a lot closer then the Golem made it out to be but people only realised this when DPS metres were allowed.

    On a bad day a Daredevil would do more DPS then an Ele cause the Daredevil rotation was much simpler and a lot of the damage came from the Auto Chain but because Ele pulled higher Golem numbers no one cared. These number were pulled from qT, the 0.5%. Not the average pug that wouldn't even pull 80% of a benchmark in actual setting.

    Yet people were still toxic are were the exact same they just had to get creative. The more observant commanders would be able to tell from rotations which ones were slacking, Meteor Shower is a pretty big give away same as Ice Bow. So I know of a few CMDR's who would try and keep an eye on how many times you used Meteor or Ice Bow during an encounter. Others based it on how many times you went down, 1 or 2 times and you were kicked no questions even if it was a mechanical mistake (such as dodging) rather then failing due to lack of DPS. Or the more common option was to just leave the group and try again.

    Removing DPS Meters won't change people's attitudes. That was there before and if they were remove will be there long after. The only thing that changes is why people will kick from at least being performance based to "what ever I feel like".

  • @Blaeys.3102 said:
    The other big problem with DPS meters is that they encourage selfish individualized gameplay that often runs counter to the needs of the group. Dodge that damage? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter? Rez that healer? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter. Move poison out of the squad? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter. Share that boon? Better not - (you get the idea).

    Some people look at meters as this great tool, but the truth is they usually hurt far more than they help, even in top level competitive groups.

    I usually see the opposite tbh. Everyone mass rushing to ress a downed person. Sometimes this causes snowball effect where more people go downed trying to res.

    Ofc you do get the odd dps player like you mentioned, but they are definitely in the minority.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:
    Its called trial and error. Long ago we had these things called dungeons, and they had mechanics that could cause groups to fail if not done properly, and guess what, players learned them without DPS meters being in game.

    And as soon as they figured them out and put them on farm we had a meta where people got insta-kicked for the wrong class just like we do now.

    Ive yet to get kicked for any of the classes i play in raids, granted i dont pug, so i cant speak to that.

    The ONLY good thing that has come out of dps meters is people can see that classes arent useless(necro and ranger, which would get kicked on sight), which with the addition of the DPS golem in the training area would still have happened.

    But still we hear the same tired speeches by necro-mains booty-bothered about not getting raid spots and rangers who get insta kicked in WvW to this day.
    I may not use or support the use of DPS meters personally, but I am not going pretend ARC created the drama, made it any better or worsened the community in any way.

    The only thing different different is raw numbers power the toxicity.

    Necros i can understand in raids, every other class(well, thieves are a more recent addition) but them is welcome by the general raiding public. Rangers in WvW is just a case of players wanting their class to be good at something that its not meant to be good at.

    Im not pretending it did, the drama started literal years before the first DPS meter was created, shortly after launch. The difference was anet flat out refused to allow them, and using them was a bannable offense. Anet caved to a vocal group(not going to say minority here, cause i never did count the number of unique people posting like i used to with other topics), and they got allowed, now we get to deal with both sides of DPS meters being toxic to each other, which is something i said way back then. Should they have been allowed? I dont know, imo, i think an ingame personal(ONLY) should have been added that way players could see their DPS/mechanics etc constantly, but only their own.

    I much prefer the data informed reality we have today over having to rely on a pugmander's gut feeling who likely doesnt have a deep understanding of all 9 classes' builds and rotations, while simaltaneously watching all 10 peoples ability usage to figure out why a mechanic failed. The trial and error process would start with kicking necros and rangers or some other uninformed degenerate behavior without factual backing.

    Yes, and i addressed that. Its the ONLY good thing that came out of allowing DPS meters IMO. Im not against each player having their own personal DPS meter(provided it could and should display all the information that ARC does), but im a firm believer in allowing players the option to opt in or out of letting others see their stats.

    Ember Wandertooth(SB), Lucina Fallenflame(Weaver), Kianda Redpaw(Guardian), Kingslayer, Light in the Dark.
    Why Guild Wars is called Guild Wars

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:
    Yes, and i addressed that. Its the ONLY good thing that came out of allowing DPS meters IMO. Im not against each player having their own personal DPS meter(provided it could and should display all the information that ARC does), but im a firm believer in allowing players the option to opt in or out of letting others see their stats.

    Not seeing the stats of others makes the meter rather pointless. And besides, if there was an opt in/out option all groups would simply ask you to opt in in order to join. Why would anyone, other than training or casual/all welcome groups, take someone opting-out from showing their stats anyway? What do they want to hide so badly? It only makes said player look suspicious of lying about their skill and/or experience, nothing more. An opt in/out feature would only make LFG listings slightly longer and serve no real purpose.

    Yes, it would be required for most groups, but it would be way easier to sort players that way than those who join a group saying they are experienced(either by lying about KP, etc) and then failing on the first encounter. If they refuse to opt in, then they get kicked before even entering the raid. LFG would take no longer than it already does.

    And no, it wouldnt make the meter useless, as the meters currently are, they are completely useless to me as i refuse to run third party programs, if GW2 had one built in i would run it actively just to see what i could do on an average basis.

    Ember Wandertooth(SB), Lucina Fallenflame(Weaver), Kianda Redpaw(Guardian), Kingslayer, Light in the Dark.
    Why Guild Wars is called Guild Wars

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1763 said:
    Yes, it would be required for most groups, but it would be way easier to sort players that way than those who join a group saying they are experienced(either by lying about KP, etc) and then failing on the first encounter. If they refuse to opt in, then they get kicked before even entering the raid. LFG would take no longer than it already does.

    Easier to sort players how? Only difference it would make is making LFG listings slightly longer. You also add an extra question and reason for consideration when inviting players, the only way that an opt in/out feature would be useful is if the moment you clicked opt-out it would disallow you from viewing the raid tab (and maybe fractal T4 tab), otherwise it's only an extra needless hassle.

    And no, it wouldnt make the meter useless, as the meters currently are, they are completely useless to me as i refuse to run third party programs, if GW2 had one built in i would run it actively just to see what i could do on an average basis.

    Making meters personal would make it useless, not the opt in/out option, they are different parts of the post.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @rabenpriester.7129 said:

    @DeadlySynz.3471 said:
    Easiest solution would be to ban the use of all dps meters. If people can't learn to play nicely based on them, then remove them.

    Just... stop. Just stop it. Please.

    Next thing would be to ban the chat.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • sigur.9453sigur.9453 Member ✭✭✭

    @Henry.5713 said:

    @rabenpriester.7129 said:

    @DeadlySynz.3471 said:
    Easiest solution would be to ban the use of all dps meters. If people can't learn to play nicely based on them, then remove them.

    Just... stop. Just stop it. Please.

    Next thing would be to ban the chat.

    does not go far enough. some emotes could totaly be used for harassment.

  • Walhalla.5473Walhalla.5473 Member ✭✭✭

    @Henry.5713 said:

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    The other big problem with DPS meters is that they encourage selfish individualized gameplay that often runs counter to the needs of the group. Dodge that damage? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter? Rez that healer? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter. Move poison out of the squad? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter. Share that boon? Better not - (you get the idea).

    Some people look at meters as this great tool, but the truth is they usually hurt far more than they help, even in top level competitive groups.

    I sometimes wonder if those complaining ever even used the current DPS meters, let alone if they ever bothered to look at an uploaded report.
    If you actually had then you would never make such silly claims as damage meters hurting play at the top level.
    Anyone who isn't blinded by their prejudice should have been able to notice the often quite dramatic improvement that happened across most squads ever since they were provided with these logs. More than anything, they make the selfish behaviour you criticized far more obvious to everyone, they show boon uptimes and failed mechanics and anything else people always claim is neglected while all raiders jerk off to their personal DPS.

    I think most people who want the DPS-Meter gone don't have an idea on what would happen if Anet would ban them. It seems like there is no thought put into it at all. I even asked what would happen after such a ban, but so far, there wasn't even an one-word-answer to that question.

  • sigur.9453sigur.9453 Member ✭✭✭

    @Walhalla.5473 said:

    @Henry.5713 said:

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    The other big problem with DPS meters is that they encourage selfish individualized gameplay that often runs counter to the needs of the group. Dodge that damage? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter? Rez that healer? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter. Move poison out of the squad? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter. Share that boon? Better not - (you get the idea).

    Some people look at meters as this great tool, but the truth is they usually hurt far more than they help, even in top level competitive groups.

    I sometimes wonder if those complaining ever even used the current DPS meters, let alone if they ever bothered to look at an uploaded report.
    If you actually had then you would never make such silly claims as damage meters hurting play at the top level.
    Anyone who isn't blinded by their prejudice should have been able to notice the often quite dramatic improvement that happened across most squads ever since they were provided with these logs. More than anything, they make the selfish behaviour you criticized far more obvious to everyone, they show boon uptimes and failed mechanics and anything else people always claim is neglected while all raiders jerk off to their personal DPS.

    I think most people who want the DPS-Meter gone don't have an idea on what would happen if Anet would ban them. It seems like there is no thought put into it at all. I even asked what would happen after such a ban, but so far, there wasn't even an one-word-answer to that question.

    peronally, this would make endgame less interesting for me.
    in fact, i think i would actually quit this game for good. i know i am in a super minority spot here, but i do not raid for LI + Loot, my "enjoyment" comes from high % raidar logs.
    in general, we would fall back into the "meta dps class or gtfo" era. which wasn´t that flawless if i remember correctly.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sigur.9453 Funny, thought I was the only one feeling that way. Most fun I have had recently was while talking over logs with my static, to try and further tweak things whenever we go for something new which usually leads to some rather pleasing results.

    Probably why I find it this amusing how people still continue to demonize meters as if it wasn't the actual players misbehaving. To quote myself... let's remove the chat next because it allows some players to act mean and toxic.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 21, 2018

    If you think that by removing dps meters, you will make raid-fractal or whatever community less toxic, you couldnt be more wrong. On the contrary, it is an objective meter. Remove it, you go back to "4 FA sword eles 22k ap+, 50 kp, 1350 LI, virgin's blood" or downright instakicking for joining with a class that does at most 28k-30k dps (instead of the top class' 34k dps). A tool becomes toxic or not according to those who use it. Blame the person.

    EDIT: No, I never ran dps meters.

  • santso.9201santso.9201 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 21, 2018

    Yeah logs are great way to pinpoint what went wrong with run, player positioning, mechanics and boons.

    And yeah dps meters allow Power reapers, soulbeasts and scourges get into groups because ppl dont do just spreadsheet dps anymore like it used to Be.

  • @rabenpriester.7129 said:

    @Condutas.3580 said:
    Are players allowed to shame others...

    I mean, if you (all hypothetical "you"s) feel shamed by me telling you that you are not good enough at this game for my groups, that's really on you. Idk why so many people seem to take it as a personal attack on their very being. Then again, I don't care about that, so... neither should you?

    Stop acting as if this is an attack on you as a human being. Stop being so entitled to getting to play with better players. You aren't, and no amount of complaining about dps meters, kps or anything will change that. Doesn't matter if you complain here or ingame, either. These "tools" just show that you are not on the same level, but believe me, people like me would see that anyways - and people not as good as me would not and would kick the wrong guys sometimes. :)

    Look at the ammount of information you just assumed to be true.

    My post simple stated that if you are shaming others, you are already on the wrong . And yes, its stated on the rules you cannot shame other players. I didnt talked about getting offended, I didnt talk about caring or not, I didnt even talked about anything related to raids AT ALL.

    Please, there is no need to be agressive...

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