Make clones a viable dps option

I've played mirage exclusively since Friday and I'm pretty happy with the spec. I think it can be improved on and I have some ideas in how to do that.

Mirage is an immensely fun spec to use and it's disheartening that it doesn't have a place in PvE content as a power build. So my ideas are focused on making power builds more viable and changing the mirror mechanic.

Currently, if you want to run a mirage power build, you have to give up the Domination Traitline. The domination trait line is used in high end PvE content for 15% damage boost to phantasms, 12.5% damage boost to targets with 25 stacks of vulnerability, and survivability through signets that give distortion on cast. In addition, Power builds have two options for weapons, Sword and Greatsword. The problem with sword is that anytime you dodge, you will ambush and create a weak clone that will replace a high damage phantasm. The problem with greatsword is that mirror blade is a strong skill to use on CD because of the bounce, but isn't because it too creates a low damage clone that will replace a high damage phantasm. The same is true for sword's illusionary leap and offhand sword's block, scepter's block, Staff #2, axe#2, etc. All skills that create a clone are essentially useless in high end pve content.

My ideas are to change 3 traits:

1. Infinite Horizon - currently it gives mirage cloak to all clones when you get it and allows them to ambush.

   • Redesign it so that one clones, at most, will mimic the caster's weapon attacks and damage. Only one clone will be affected by this trait at a time. Other clones thatare active will behave normally. Phantasms won't be affected by this trait.

   • The idea is to be able to do max damage by having two phantasms and one clone out at all times, as opposed to base mesmer and chronomancer that needs tohave 3 phantasms. The clones will retain it's low HP pool and robotic movements, but it won't be limited to having to stand still to attack. If the caster isspamming auto attack, the clone will do that also at the same speed and for the same damage, while moving if it has to. Skills that root the caster in place, such asblurred frenzy, will root the clone in place. The caster will essentially be in control of two characters, but that clone's movement is controlled by AI.

                                *  Clones are very easily created, through traits and weapon skills, and it sucks they are more or less useless a lot of the times.  This will give them an important use and                                create a more unique experience for the mirage.  The weaknesses of this trait is that the mirage cloak and ambush will only be available on a single clone only. No                                more ambushes with 3 clones.  The low health pool is a weakness, And dummy movement AI.  But I believe this is all fair considering the dps potential of this clone.                                 Mirage will truly be a clone spec, have viable power dps option, and will make the caster a little easier to hide in his clones as stated was the original concept idea.

2. Nomad's Endurance- Shatter skills give vigor, which grants Condition damage.

   • This should be changed to give +150 condition damage OR power, depending on which stat is highest for the player. As a minor it should be a viable option for bothcondition users and power builds.

3. Desert Distortion- Illusions shattered by Distortion become Mirage Mirrors. Ambush skills become available for a short time whenever you grant distortion to yourself.

   • Most people do not want to run around collecting power ups on the ground in an MMO, especiallly when they are out of the way. As stated many times by thecommunity already, mirrors aren't fun and are not very useful. This is a cool trait, but it's a cool trait for a terrible mechanic.

   • This trait seems to be about survivability by giving the caster more evasion. I propose it redesigned to give survivability through clone death. When clones die, theywill create small areas of quicksand that persist for 2 second and causing 1 second of slow for enemies that stand in it. It could be changed to cripple and/orweakness. The effect should be that of soft CC condition. It falls in line with the desert theme.

With these change, I see mirage build users as whole will be able to use all of their skills in all game modes. Skills that never get used in raids because they are a dps loss will get use. A simple example would be just being able to use sword block or scepter block, to block a big attack, to save yourself without it being a big dps loss cause of the clone spawned. And in pvp or wvw, being able to mix onself in with a clone that is casting weapon skills while moving toward their target. These changes will create a more unique experience for mirage, and overcome some of the limitations of base mesmer.

Thank you.

*****TLDR: Mirages will maximize dps using phantasms and one clone. the one clone will copy the mirage's weapon skills and damage. So using clone summoning skills won't be a dps loss and will make playing mirage more fun.

Things I wanted to add:

1. This will also reduce ramp up time. Right now we can easily get 2 preferred phantasms out, but i have to wait on the cd to get a third out. Now getting the two phantasms out and the third out will be very fast mesmer will be able to max damage right away into a fight.

2. Changing targets will be more bearable since clones are more easily spawned.

3. In pvp, the instant deaths of phantasms will be less of a loss to damage because it will be easy to always have at least one clone up to keep up sustained damage when not bursting.

4. Easier to blend in with clones if one other is attacking while moving just as they expect you to do.

They already are have tested with an unoptimized rotation (mostly spamming skills off cooldown.) https://imgur.com/a/nW11t

clone would have to a lot of more condi dmg to compete with iduelist (which has power dmg and bleed )also since IH is not baseline . clone dmg has to compete with 20% condi duration . that's 300 + stats not to mention additional bleed from that gm trait .

so in order to make a clone build viable , ambush skill has to be buffed to do at least 300% condi dmg . this is not gonna happen .or they can make IH baseline , buff all ambush skill to do 150% more condi dmg .or they could add more ways to gain mirror and ambush , and make it work with shatter , also buff ambush attack a bit ,then we could have a fun clone dps build while you need to shatter for max dmg .

my suggestion :IH base lineeverytime you shatter phant or your phant got replaced by clones(maybe change de function with mirage ) , you generate mirror around where the phant shatters with a minor trait (replace superspeed , superspeed should be baseline)F5 to consume mirror to gain endurance.add clone to scepter ambush skill .buff condi duration from axe ,scepter and staff ambush, lower ambush skills cast time .new GM trait : when you use f5 , instead of consuming mirrors, you shatter them as mind crack for power build .replace trait Riddle of Sand with new one : whenever you gain mirage cloak , you gain a count for 3s ,10s icd , with the this , you shatter your self twice . second shatter will be a bit delayed .half the second shatter dmg in pvp .

@musu.9205 said:clone would have to a lot of more condi dmg to compete with iduelist (which has power dmg and bleed )also since IH is not baseline . clone dmg has to compete with 20% condi duration . that's 300 + stats not to mention additional bleed from that gm trait .

so in order to make a clone build viable , ambush skill has to be buffed to do at least 300% condi dmg . this is not gonna happen .or they can make IH baseline , buff all ambush skill to do 150% more condi dmg .or they could add more ways to gain mirror and ambush , and make it work with shatter , also buff ambush attack a bit ,then we could have a fun clone dps build while you need to shatter for max dmg .

my suggestion :IH base lineeverytime you shatter phant or your phant got replaced by clones(maybe change de function with mirage ) , you generate mirror around where the phant shatters with a minor trait (replace superspeed , superspeed should be baseline)F5 to consume mirror to gain endurance.add clone to scepter ambush skill .buff condi duration from axe ,scepter and staff ambush, lower ambush skills cast time .new GM trait : when you use f5 , instead of consuming mirrors, you shatter them as mind crack for power build .replace trait Riddle of Sand with new one : whenever you gain mirage cloak , you gain a count for 3s ,10s icd , with the this , you shatter your self twice . second shatter will be a bit delayed .half the second shatter dmg in pvp .

@musu.9205 said:clone would have to a lot of more condi dmg to compete with iduelist (which has power dmg and bleed )also since IH is not baseline . clone dmg has to compete with 20% condi duration . that's 300 + stats not to mention additional bleed from that gm trait .

so in order to make a clone build viable , ambush skill has to be buffed to do at least 300% condi dmg . this is not gonna happen .or they can make IH baseline , buff all ambush skill to do 150% more condi dmg .or they could add more ways to gain mirror and ambush , and make it work with shatter , also buff ambush attack a bit ,then we could have a fun clone dps build while you need to shatter for max dmg .

my suggestion :IH base lineeverytime you shatter phant or your phant got replaced by clones(maybe change de function with mirage ) , you generate mirror around where the phant shatters with a minor trait (replace superspeed , superspeed should be baseline)F5 to consume mirror to gain endurance.add clone to scepter ambush skill .buff condi duration from axe ,scepter and staff ambush, lower ambush skills cast time .new GM trait : when you use f5 , instead of consuming mirrors, you shatter them as mind crack for power build .replace trait Riddle of Sand with new one : whenever you gain mirage cloak , you gain a count for 3s ,10s icd , with the this , you shatter your self twice . second shatter will be a bit delayed .half the second shatter dmg in pvp .

This is intended mostly as a buff for power builds to make power builds viable in high end pve content. I don't expect condi users to take this trait over Dune Cloak for raids. I want to see a viable power mirage for raids. I think the damage increase form having a clone replicate the same attacks and damage as the mirage, full zerker gear, will make up for only keeping 2 phantasms up, instead of 3. It should cover the loss of damage from the domination tree also.

@"Refia Montes.3205" said:They already are have tested with an unoptimized rotation (mostly spamming skills off cooldown.) https://imgur.com/a/nW11t

The clone build in this manner isn't what i'm talking about. I'm proposing a redesign.

Let me give you an example of how it would work.Currently in raids, condi mirages are using 3 duelists to maximize damage. Some of tried using 3 clones or just 2 phantasms and one clone, and it doesn't do as much damage. That's because it's only counting the condition damage from the clone, and the clone is applying those condition stacks very slowly cause the auto attack is slowly. What i'm proposing is for one clone at most, to perform at the same level as the mirage. When the mirage auto attacks, the clone will do the same, and replicate the frequency of the attacks as well as the damage.

So with my proposed redesign of Infinite Horizon, a single clone will match the same damage as the mirage. Condi users are using all viper gear. Viper gear has a lot of power, which is all wasted on clones. Because clones, no matter how much power you have, will do very little direct damage. Their conditions will stack, but also much slower because they attack much slower. So this change will make the clone and the mesmer perform at the same level. Meaning, it will be optimal to have 2 duelists out and one clone out to maximize damage. Also, skill that were useless to use because they summoned a clone that replaced a phantasms, will be viable to use.

It is also much faster to summon 2 duelist and a clone, than it is to summon 3 duelists. So the ramp up time for damage will be much faster than current.

@Hot Boy.7138 said:

@"Refia Montes.3205" said:They already are have tested with an unoptimized rotation (mostly spamming skills off cooldown.)

https://imgur.com/a/nW11t

the buff i list will be be useful for both power and condi build . if you can shatter more often with 5 times of shatter each time , it will become very strong while clone still stays what they are but they will improve your personal dps a lot .i prefer more active play over others .

"> It is also much faster to summon 2 duelist and a clone, than it is to summon 3 duelists. So the ramp up time for damage will be much faster than current."as long as phant or clone does more dps we will endup summon 3 clones or 3 phants there wont be any mid ground .what we need is making shatter matter in pve .

@musu.9205 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:

@"Refia Montes.3205" said:They already are have tested with an unoptimized rotation (mostly spamming skills off cooldown.)

https://imgur.com/a/nW11t

The middle ground is in the trait itself. I specified that only ONE clone is affected by the trait at a time. So it would be a big dps loss to have more than one clone up. Will need to have 2 Phantasms and 1 clone for max dps.

I really like this change. Having one clone to replicate what we do 1:1 would be awsome. It could be used in pvp as well by "nerfing" it to a 50% or 75 % of the total damage dealt by the player, if 100% becomes op. That single trait change would open up so many new different possibilities. Thump up :+1:

Clones already are a viable DPS option though, and your proposed change would remove a lot of the fun of infinite horizon.

EDIT: Whoops, double post.

I figure this is a good place to share this as well, but here's my idea for how clones and phantasms could be changed from a DPS perspective (copied from my redesigning phantasms thread):

• Reduce the damage phantasms deal. Increase the damage clones can deal and increase Mesmer weapon skill damage. The goal here is to reduce our reliance on keeping three phantasms up to deal good damage, and reduce the ramp-up time that Mesmers have, which also reduces the punishment for shattering during a PvE fight. I'm imagining clones and phantasms dealing close to the same amount of damage, which is less than phantasms do now but more than clones do. Meanwhile, Mesmer weapon skills deal increased damage to pick up the slack. The idea here isn't to massively increase our DPS (although I wouldn't complain :wink:) but rather to place more of it on things we can more easily control, like our own weapon skills, or easily build back up, like clones. This would be a big win for condition Mesmers, too, because it removes the double ramp-up that condition Mesmers have (the normal condition stacking ramp-up time, as well as the time spent summoning three phantasms).
• Ensure every phantasm has a unique and desirable effect in addition to damage. This is what would make phantasms separate from, and better than, clones: they have other effects that make you want to use them. They'd still be more durable, too. The idea here is that if phantasms aren't separated from clones by doing more damage, they need something else to make sure they're still special. And some phantasms are already there. Phantasmal Berserker has a useful AoE cripple. Phantasmal Avenger applies alacrity. Both of these would be useful even if they did less damage just for their other effects. So let's give similar things to every phantasm. Every phantasm becomes a situational, utility, or support illusion that is useful to summon but not always mandatory to keep out.

So what's the end effect here?

• Phantasms are not core DPS tools, but instead utility tools. If both types of illusion do similar damage, and the Mesmer themselves can do more damage directly, we don't rely on keeping our phantasms alive to do sustained DPS.
• Replacing a phantasm with a clone, or shattering phantasms, becomes less punishing. Sure, there are times when you'll want to keep your phantasms alive as long as possible, like a Chronomancer providing alacrity. But in general, because phantasms would no longer be a huge DPS gain over clones, it's not as punishing if you use a skill that generates a clone and replaces one of your phantasms, or if you shatter.
• Phantasms retain their core identity. Unlike my original suggestion, I'm not redefining what a phantasm even is here. I'm suggesting that phantasms could use the same system they currently do and simply fill a different role.

What do you all think of this concept?

@atlashugged.7642 said:Clones already are a viable DPS option though, and your proposed change would remove a lot of the fun of infinite horizon.

not for power builds. There is no power mirage build anyone can make high end pve content without a loss.

@trooper.2650 said:I really like this change. Having one clone to replicate what we do 1:1 would be awsome. It could be used in pvp as well by "nerfing" it to a 50% or 75 % of the total damage dealt by the player, if 100% becomes op. That single trait change would open up so many new different possibilities. Thump up :+1:

Yeah, that's what I have in mind. Thanks for the support.

@Hot Boy.7138 said:

@atlashugged.7642 said:Clones already are a viable DPS option though, and your proposed change would remove a lot of the fun of infinite horizon.

True... but judging from GS Ambush and Sword ambush it looks like they only want Power Mirage to exist in PvP and never in PvE. For me I'd rather go and add damage traits to Chrono (mostly looking at the slow traits chrono has which are never picked) or just play base Power Mesmer than try to come up with a convuluted solution to a fundamentally flawed problem at the base level.

What I would love is a PvE-viable shatter spec. I'd love a DPS rotation--whether it's power or condition damage--where shattering frequently, instead of just keeping phantasms around as long as possible, is the way to go. Any options ArenaNet could add, or skills and traits to change, to enable that would make me really happy.

@Refia Montes.3205 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:

@atlashugged.7642 said:Clones already are a viable DPS option though, and your proposed change would remove a lot of the fun of infinite horizon.

I don't know that I'd say it's fundamentally flawed. Some number increases on those ambush attacks would help, as would increasing the physical damage on things like Mirage Mirrors breaking and Crystal Sands.

But I'd also agree that that's not what ArenaNet's going for with Mirage. It doesn't have a clear, coherent PvE vision, but what's there is amplifying Mesmer's condition damage. In PvP, the utilities and elite really get to shine--all that extra mobility is really fun and useful--but those aren't all that useful in group PvE, so Mirage is all about the traits and the axe skills there.

Even looking at the Chronomancer damage traits, I doubt it'd be superior to just taking a third core Mesmer trait line. Core power Mesmer is pretty solid, though, like you mention.

@Refia Montes.3205 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:

@atlashugged.7642 said:Clones already are a viable DPS option though, and your proposed change would remove a lot of the fun of infinite horizon.

This redesign idea of mine is complex, but i think it is a more fun solution and creates a more unique feel to mirage. A big complaint I saw was that mirage didn't feel original enough in the same manner that chronomancer did. It's my idea so of course I think it's worth implementing. But i think it will be worth it to anet to consider it. And it's not so much just about numbers. It's also about flavor. I could easily play power base mes if I want a power dps build, but I love the flavor of mirage. I'd like to be able to do it with mirage.

Also I think it would be so much more fun in all game modes to have one clone, that looks exactly like the player, replicating attacks and damage. It would be amazing to see and to play. It would be disposable because it is a clone, but easily generated again because it is still a clone.

This feels more like a mesmer problem, it's true that their class skill is to destroy their own illusions but it would be nice if the illusions had more value then they do right now. Having so many of the mesmers utility abilities being underpowered doesn't help.

I mostly just want a mesmer specialization which has a much higher illusion cap and replaces the Shatter skills with illusion commands.

Would of rather that then Chronomancer, it's a great specialization but in terms of having its own unique design style it's pretty mundane; especially the time wells. Mirage is basically the "confuse your opponent completely while constantly flying around" playstyle which is super fun and in line with the entire point of a mesmer. Chronomancer is just the generic vanilla mesmer but with more abilities and encouragement to repetitiously spam shatters.

I wanted to emphasize the fact that clone generating skills really don't get used in high end PvE content. And those skills are, imo, the most interesting weapon skills we have. For example, sword leap and sword block. Both are amazing for quickly switching to an add and blocking a big attack and counter attacking. But they aren't used. Mirror Blade on greatsword has so much flavor and the visual effect is beautiful, throwing a giant greatsword like that, but it too doesn't get used. Staff 2 teleport could be used to quickly get out of aoe without losing dps, but that too doesn't get used. These are just some example.

In addition, clone generating skills on our weapons are usually our leap and whirl finishers. Combo finishers are a big part of gw2's combat but it's essentially not something mesmers can efficiently participate in with finishers because they're on clone generating skills. With this idea to redesign Infinite Horizon so one clone is always used for max dps, it would all us to actually use all of our weapon skills in High End pve Content, also it will allow us to be use finishers on combo fields. I'm actually crazy excited at the idea of being able to spam leap finishers for aura stacking in combat. It could open up some new playstyles. As I said before, it could really make mirage a much more unique experience.

@Agent Noun.7350 said:What I would love is a PvE-viable shatter spec. I'd love a DPS rotation--whether it's power or condition damage--where shattering frequently, instead of just keeping phantasms around as long as possible, is the way to go. Any options ArenaNet could add, or skills and traits to change, to enable that would make me really happy.

@Refia Montes.3205 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:

@atlashugged.7642 said:Clones already are a viable DPS option though, and your proposed change would remove a lot of the fun of infinite horizon.

I mentioned Chrono's damage traits because Chronomancer fits as a Power version of an Elite more than Mirage. The reason for this is because there's a lot of tools in Chrono's set that augments Power Mesmer. Tides of Time, WoC, Continuum Split, Danger Time and Chronophantasma. Additionally, Shield is a very Power focused weapon.

Something else I just thought of, it would give much more cleave which we dont have much of currently

hmmm...

I'd rather phantasms be removed fromt the 3 illusion pool and function more like renegade summons with suitable rebalancing. Then buff clones appropriately to compensate.

I was doing some clone DPS tests, and I've noticed something: They aren't that bad. I only get 27k DPS (no food), other people have gotten up to 30k. I get these numbers if I'm running either Infinite Horizons or Dune Cloak.

The clone build would be so much better if you could run both at the same time. If I could use both infinite horizons and dune cloak, then I would get about 30k with other people hitting 33k. That is definitely a worthy benchmark. It seems like the best thing for a clone build is for Infinite Horizon to become baseline. It won't buff phantasms at all, but clone DPS would increase quite a bit.

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:I was doing some clone DPS tests, and I've noticed something: They aren't that bad. I only get 27k DPS (no food), other people have gotten up to 30k. I get these numbers if I'm running either Infinite Horizons or Dune Cloak.

The clone build would be so much better if you could run both at the same time. If I could use both infinite horizons and dune cloak, then I would get about 30k with other people hitting 33k. That is definitely a worthy benchmark. It seems like the best thing for a clone build is for Infinite Horizon to become baseline. It won't buff phantasms at all, but clone DPS would increase quite a bit.

Mirage would definitely be much better and more active if clones and phantasms were together for maximum dps. Currently, cast 3 phantasms, then you never press that skill button again, and then you also don't use your clone skills cause it will replace a phantasms. So lets say, for a power build running dual swords, after you summon swordsman, the only thing left to use are auto attack and blurred frenzy because, sword 3, sword 4, and sword 5 will all lower dps.

I mean, when do you use Sword3, 4, or 5 for their DPS components? Let's be real, they aren't powerful abilities if you ignore their illusion components (although Sword4 can hit very hard).