Blinding Ashes (Fire Grandmaster Trait) QoL change — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Blinding Ashes (Fire Grandmaster Trait) QoL change

Fortus.6175Fortus.6175 Member ✭✭✭
edited November 18, 2018 in Elementalist

Make it apply blind to anyone who gets burned, once per target (current 8 secs ICD). It makes no sense that it only applies to the first target your burn (like a mesmer clone, or a pet, or minion), and that the ICD starts there, when a non-grandmaster trait for mesmers does essentially the same thing for each shatter, with no ICD. It would give eles a reason to go away from water/arcane as much, and would give us some survavility outside of healing. Together with the fire trait that takes conditions away with each aura applied, this would buff tempest, which IMO, needed it. A new water/fire/tempest build could come up.
Thoughts? Suggestions?

Comments

  • Xaylin.1860Xaylin.1860 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fortus.6175 said:
    ... a non-grandmaster trait for mesmers does essentially the same thing for each shatter, with no ICD...

    So... how often do you shatter vs. apply burning? ;) My point being, the Mesmer trait is gated by shatter cooldowns.

    Cooldown aside, sure, why not talk about the functionality. Would a small area blind on burn (primary target, ICD) be more attractive?

  • 8sec is good; but yes it could apply the icd per foe.

    And about the mesmer : If you play fire spec you can't really decide when the blindness will be applied; for mesmer you know when you press f1-f4. It makes a big difference.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    ICD are the bane of the ele class. Ele and all aoe class has effects on icd that often only works on one target. There a real lack of detection on the class.
    I would love to see an icd per person on blinding ashes but it may need to be on a higher cd.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Dahir.4158Dahir.4158 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fortus.6175 said:
    Make it apply blind to anyone who gets burned, once per target (current 8 secs ICD). It makes no sense that it only applies to the first target your burn (like a mesmer clone, or a pet, or minion), and that the ICD starts there, when a non-grandmaster trait for mesmers does essentially the same thing for each shatter, with no ICD. It would give eles a reason to go away from water/arcane as much, and would give us some survavility outside of healing. Together with the fire trait that takes conditions away with each aura applied, this would buff tempest, which IMO, needed it. A new water/fire/tempest build could come up.
    Thoughts? Suggestions?

    I'm already in the midst of such a build. I've been roaming with tempest/fire/water + antitoxin and it's amazing. Conditions from necromancers and mesmers do nothing to you. Smothering auras with all the condition cleanse traits is crazy. This new trait is the icing on the cake.

    I just wish Blinding Ashes was worthy of its grandmaster status, but sadly, it is not. Please change it so that it affects each user. Make the fire trait-line good again.

    Broski Supreme - Borsk Carry Effect

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Or maybe make the blind proc only when burning ends or if it is cleansed?

  • Allarius.5670Allarius.5670 Member ✭✭✭

    The problem is the proc on burning. It is unreliable because it is largely outside of the player's control, and the potential frequency of burning cannot justify a lower cooldown.

    To be more effective the trait needs a player controlled proc with a trigger that already has built in cooldowns so the internal cooldown can be removed.

  • The problem is that this was balanced around ele having #1 sustain through water and arcana in the pre-HoT cele meta. Objectively, this trait is now a useless lump of steaming hot garbage, and is barely worth an adept slot. Smothering auras should be put in this place, as it can actually be a centerpiece for the right build. This could be added onto the conjure trait and it still wouldn't see much use.

  • Xaylin.1860Xaylin.1860 Member ✭✭✭

    Have been busy so just coming back to this thread. :3

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    8sec is good; but yes it could apply the icd per foe.

    And about the mesmer : If you play fire spec you can't really decide when the blindness will be applied; for mesmer you know when you press f1-f4. It makes a big difference.

    Of course, there is a difference. But Mesmers not having an ICD doesn't justify Blinding Ashes having none. ;)

    @Jski.6180 said:
    ICD are the bane of the ele class. Ele and all aoe class has effects on icd that often only works on one target. There a real lack of detection on the class.
    I would love to see an icd per person on blinding ashes but it may need to be on a higher cd.

    An ICD per target would help but be pretty boring as well. As others pointed out, Blinding Dissipation is way more appealing because it is a linked to a mechanic you can trigger on purpose at a specific time. Things which could work for Blinding Ashes which is more comparable to this:

    • Blind nearby foes when granting yourself a fire aura. (= attuning to Fire = Sunspot = Blind)
    • Create a smoke field for 3s when attuning to Fire which pulses Blind. (...Roaming :p )
  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Xaylin.1860 said:
    Have been busy so just coming back to this thread. :3

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    8sec is good; but yes it could apply the icd per foe.

    And about the mesmer : If you play fire spec you can't really decide when the blindness will be applied; for mesmer you know when you press f1-f4. It makes a big difference.

    Of course, there is a difference. But Mesmers not having an ICD doesn't justify Blinding Ashes having none. ;)

    @Jski.6180 said:
    ICD are the bane of the ele class. Ele and all aoe class has effects on icd that often only works on one target. There a real lack of detection on the class.
    I would love to see an icd per person on blinding ashes but it may need to be on a higher cd.

    An ICD per target would help but be pretty boring as well. As others pointed out, Blinding Dissipation is way more appealing because it is a linked to a mechanic you can trigger on purpose at a specific time. Things which could work for Blinding Ashes which is more comparable to this:

    • Blind nearby foes when granting yourself a fire aura. (= attuning to Fire = Sunspot = Blind)
    • Create a smoke field for 3s when attuning to Fire which pulses Blind. (...Roaming :p )

    What boring? It makes burning on any aoe viable for ele. It lets you melee with out being one shot.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • @Xaylin.1860 said:

    @Fortus.6175 said:
    ... a non-grandmaster trait for mesmers does essentially the same thing for each shatter, with no ICD...

    So... how often do you shatter vs. apply burning? ;) My point being, the Mesmer trait is gated by shatter cooldowns.

    Cooldown aside, sure, why not talk about the functionality. Would a small area blind on burn (primary target, ICD) be more attractive?

    Without training shatterstorm or the minor illusions trait, shattering on cool down is an average rate of 1 every 5.89 seconds, so it’s 5 target blinds occur ~33% more frequently than Eles single target blind. The Mesmer non grandmaster trait can deliver a potential of 7.5x as many blinds as the ele grandmaster, and the gap gets wider if you have the illusions trait line or alacrity.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    Mesmer has more active/preemptive defenses to avoid damage. Ele is more passive/reactive through facetanking and constant healing. I wonder why that design choice for the squishiest class. Ele defenses should also be about damage avoidance. Mesmers and thieves are elusive, which fits their thematic. But ele was supposed to deal very high damage to compensate, and when you do so through unnessecary complicated combos and rotations, you can not afford to eat damage full front. Aura was supposed to be a defensive mechanism, but even fully traited by taking 5 lines it doesn't prevent you from being one-shot.
    What ele lacks: a real class mechanic. Having more weapon skills is just... Blinding ashes that hides the lack of class design.

    I would not mind seeing it becoming a Flame Burst on crit 8 sec cd AND Flame Burst now aplays an aoe blind (must like the restriction update and geyser). So you give a real aoe condi burn skill on aoe for all weapons types as well as letting the dodge roll give an added blind and letting staff give an added blind as well.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Xaylin.1860Xaylin.1860 Member ✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:
    What boring? It makes burning on any aoe viable for ele. It lets you melee with out being one shot.

    It is boring because it doesn't affect your active gameplay actions regardless of the ICD it got. It just happens. Almost anything can be made appealing (or unappealing) when tuning cooldowns. However, I'm aruing that it doesn't make a trait innately better or attractive. Personally, I prefer GM traits which actually have an impact that make you build around them instead of just 'Meh, let's go with this because I don't happen to need more Might or Fury.'.

    @GoodWithGravy.8019 said:
    Without training shatterstorm or the minor illusions trait, shattering on cool down is an average rate of 1 every 5.89 seconds, so it’s 5 target blinds occur ~33% more frequently than Eles single target blind. The Mesmer non grandmaster trait can deliver a potential of 7.5x as many blinds as the ele grandmaster, and the gap gets wider if you have the illusions trait line or alacrity.

    Way to try to prove your point with... not. First, I didn't cross check but the your numbers might be right. But how is this scenario even desirable? It is like arguing why The Pledge is worse at applying Burning than Burning or Arcane Precision or comparing Piercing Shards with Targeted Destruction. You really need to consider the whole picture. You are neglecting that using Shatters on cooldown has severe implications for Mesmers. Additionally, you scale up to 5 targets to make BA appear even worse which is inaccurate quite a few situations. Blinding Ashes - as it is right now - can be used at range. Blinding Dissipation really can't. Meaning, in a 1 vs. 1 close combat situation BD (without additional traits) is at best about 25% better at applying Blinds while sacrificing your whole class mechanic (Rounded down by 1,375 from 5.89/8 ~ 26%, not up by 6,625 to 33% - As a wise woman once said: Choices ;) . Excuse the commas. I'm German.). In a larger close combat scale, yes, BD would be increasingly better. However, in a ranged scenario it is useless. So what about that? BA is indefinitely more efficient in those scenarios. And guess what: That's why I personally quite often prefer Evasive Mirror. Heck, defensively I might even prefer Fencers Finesse for a shorter cooldown on ever so often nerfed Blurred Frenzy. Because BF can negate even more hits than 1 hit per 5 foes when I actually need it. As I said: Context and the whole picture matter.

    Now, a point I agree with you: Elementalists can't really gain any additional synergies with the current Blinding Ashes traits. There are two very simple reasons. First, it has a bad design (mechanic to trigger). Regardless wether BA can actually be properly controlled, BD is linked to Shatters which - of course - as a class mechanic can be further improved. Second, Blinds are somewhat innate - or at least more innate - to Mesmers than they on Elementalists from a design point of view (please don't start counting Blinds per class...). Which means you won't find anything like Ineptitude to create additional synergies or desirable skill or trait set ups.

    That said, why do people always get so stuck on 'But y got x...' instead of thinking about what could be done for the profession which is actually being discussed? BA is kind of underwhelming, yes. We are debating that on the ICD of the trait in this thread. Fair point. ICD per person makes sense. However, it doesn't change the fact that it might remain worse than Blinding Dissipation. Because you can neither create gameplay from it - it is passive and close to not controllable - nor will it ever be able to synergize with anything else as long as Elementalists don't gain new traits specifically being triggered by Blinds. Blinding Ashes doesn't feel pathetic as a GM trait because the cooldown is too high. It is pathetic because it is poorly designed and doesn't impact your gameplay.

    @Jski.6180 said:
    I would not mind seeing it becoming a Flame Burst on crit 8 sec cd AND Flame Burst now aplays an aoe blind (must like the restriction update and geyser). So you give a real aoe condi burn skill on aoe for all weapons types as well as letting the dodge roll give an added blind and letting staff give an added blind as well.

    Now, this is stuff I could get more behind as long as it wasn't triggered on applying Burning (because that wouldn't chance a thing). Just keep in mind that ANet started getting rid of passive damage procs. Your Flame Burst suggestion probably won't make it through.

    What about...
    Evading an attack while attuned to Fire applies Blind (5s ICD p.T.). Hitting a foe with more than x stacks Burning applies Blind (10s ICD p.T.)"

    • You could still actively apply it even though it will need a specific amount of Burning stacks
    • The defensive potency is way higher than before

    Even though I still liked my other two ideas... :#

  • GoodWithGravy.8019GoodWithGravy.8019 Member ✭✭
    edited November 24, 2018

    My precious post was not making a point and just providing actual numbers to prevent the misconception that the shatter cooldown is a major limit in any way compared the the single target limit and icd. The original post I replied to implied that the shatter cooldown was equally or more limiting than the GCD. This is not true, the limitation is the opportunity cost, and the numbers show that unambiguously. The proper discussion is, as other people have correctly pointed out, about sacrificing a shatter vs not having control over when blinds are applied.

    Just for reference, the math:
    Shatters per second is easy, reciprocal of sum of reciprocals. (1 over the sum of rates)

    Frequency increase was stated to be more than the Ele trait, that defines the reference point: (1/6-1/8)/(1/8)=1/3
    33% more than Ele or 25% less than Mesmer are equivalent statements, you just have to read which is the reference value from the text. I chose BA because the thread is primarily about BA.

    Now, the actual trait:

    With regards to what to do to actually fix burning ashes, the trait has been covered at length in the concerns about Ele thread.

    The trait should probably be completely replaced because it is a classic case of passive play. Ideally it would be replaced with something more like the Mesmer trait with active play and a much higher blind potential, giving it a much higher skill ceiling. (That is essentially what the numbers boil down to, more potential and control but with trade offs = higher skill ceiling).

    Apart from completely replacing the trait, at the very minimum the GCD should certainly be per target and probably be reverted to its original value. The trait could also do with a secondary effect such as receiving a small heal or transferring a condition to blinded targets. The later would move dependence away from the water tree and open up more condi PvP builds as it gives more access to cover conditions which Ele traditionally lacks.

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @GoodWithGravy.8019 said:
    Apart from completely replacing the trait, at the very minimum the GCD should certainly be per target and probably be reverted to its original value. The trait could also do with a secondary effect such as receiving a small heal or transferring a condition to blinded targets. The later would move dependence away from the water tree and open up more condi PvP builds as it gives more access to cover conditions which Ele traditionally lacks.

    I'd like that.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MyPuppy.8970

    Now, this is stuff I could get more behind as long as it wasn't triggered on applying Burning (because that wouldn't chance a thing). Just keep in mind that ANet started getting rid of passive damage procs. Your Flame Burst suggestion probably won't make it through.

    What about...
    Evading an attack while attuned to Fire applies Blind (5s ICD p.T.). Hitting a foe with more than x stacks Burning applies Blind (10s ICD p.T.)"

    • You could still actively apply it even though it will need a specific amount of Burning stacks
    • The defensive potency is way higher than before

    Even though I still liked my other two ideas... :#

    The ideal is to let more then just the staff get the effect because Flame burst is on a few effects for ele and to let flame burst get more effects such as an aoe blind. That and the fire line lacks a GM that effects condis in a big way mostly burning. Blind on burn is not a GM level effect but triggering flame burst is.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • lLobo.7960lLobo.7960 Member ✭✭✭

    Make it so you leave a smoke field on your location for 3s when you attune OUT of fire.

    It would have great use in solo PvE, and great use in pvp or roaming, giving ele a way to get stealth (blast or leap through it)

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lLobo.7960 said:
    Make it so you leave a smoke field on your location for 3s when you attune OUT of fire.

    It would have great use in solo PvE, and great use in pvp or roaming, giving ele a way to get stealth (blast or leap through it)

    That would be sweet. I wouldn't have all the rangers pets on my kitten anymore.

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lLobo.7960 said:
    Make it so you leave a smoke field on your location for 3s when you attune OUT of fire.

    It would have great use in solo PvE, and great use in pvp or roaming, giving ele a way to get stealth (blast or leap through it)

    That is a really fun idea.

    Healing orbs are a mistake. Please delete them ANet.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2018

    it needs to be changed. its either no/low icd and broken or high cd and bad. maybe tack on another condition like slow? idk.

    @lLobo.7960 said:
    Make it so you leave a smoke field on your location for 3s when you attune OUT of fire.

    It would have great use in solo PvE, and great use in pvp or roaming, giving ele a way to get stealth (blast or leap through it)

    that sounds pretty sweet haha.

    Te lazla otstra.
    nerf list

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