Why not make damage multipliers additive instead of multiplicative? - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Why not make damage multipliers additive instead of multiplicative?

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  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I think you are still making some incorrect correlations.

    How damage is calculated has nothing to do with high damage or burst. All variables can be manipulated. The fact that balance patches every X months do not reduce all damage across the board is indicative that developers intend damage to be this high. They CAN reduce damage significantly as seen post PoF launch where elite specializations were flirting with 60k dps and above, for a week.

    Now take into account the move against the bunker meta, thus not wanting to have super tanky builds live for ever in spvp, and you might have a culprit for your issues.

    TL;DR: if you want a more tanky spvp meta, make a case for it and against the anti-bunker approach currently in place. This has nothing to do with multipliers.

    So I guess looking for a balanced meta is out of the question? Because that's what I'd like to see. Some of the power creep toned down.

    The way to do so is by reducing burst and by reducing passive invulns. We can't reduce the invulns until damage is lowered.

    The most fair way to lower damage is changing the system from multiplicative to additive, as that affects each class the same way.

    Then shave a second off invulns, shave off 20% from all endurance regen traits.

    Voila, ttk is increased but the game retains its fast pace.

    No? If you take 20% away from endurance regens, you're shortening a fight by 20% in PvP. This would have the opposite effect of what you're trying to accomplish. Taking away iframes will mean that you're always going to be taking that damage, which will also lead to shorter fights, thus accomplishing the opposite of what you're claiming to aim for. I'm starting to feel deceived here.

    Endurance regeneration traits. Adrenal implant etc.

    This makes people use their defensive cds only when needed instead of chaining them together to never take a hit. It promotes skilled plays

    This also hurts bunkers, so we don't move back to a bunker meta.

    It's PvP, they're always needed. That's what the dodge tutorials teach you in every starter zone. How to dodge, and why you should do it. There seems to be some kind of secondary agenda here, and the more I read, the more I feel like someone dodged one of your one shot kill skills, and then, while you were raging about that, one shot killed you, and you had to come up with a reason, and so here we sit, discussing crit multipliers, and nerfing defensive skills and tactics "to make fights longer", despite the fact that it would have the opposite effect. Simple logic there.

    An example scenario: Your system cuts 1 second from iframe, and I use a skill that has a 1 second iframe to dodge your attack. For this example, you cannot crit, there are no crit modifiers, so it's all just base damage. What this does is make it so that instead of avoiding that one attack, I take full damage from it, negating the endurance I spent dodging your attack, and, with a lower regen, making it pointless to try to do so again. How is this going to make a fight last longer? The simple answer is that it's not going to. It's going to make all fights shorter, even ones that would naturally be longer in the current system. That's what happens when you nerf defenses, they are nullified, meaning that you may as well not have them, but this is supposed to improve PvP? For whom?

    You don't understand. People are not using dodges/invulns/defensive cds to avoid a specific attack. They're just chaining them together to never have a vulnerable period at all, because there are too many /cds are too short. Which they have to be as a result of power creep that has made damage too high.

    By reducing damage, we can then reduce iframe uptime. Instead of escalating the arms race, ie. Power creep, we can reduce it. This promotes skillful play and increases ttk

  • @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I think you are still making some incorrect correlations.

    How damage is calculated has nothing to do with high damage or burst. All variables can be manipulated. The fact that balance patches every X months do not reduce all damage across the board is indicative that developers intend damage to be this high. They CAN reduce damage significantly as seen post PoF launch where elite specializations were flirting with 60k dps and above, for a week.

    Now take into account the move against the bunker meta, thus not wanting to have super tanky builds live for ever in spvp, and you might have a culprit for your issues.

    TL;DR: if you want a more tanky spvp meta, make a case for it and against the anti-bunker approach currently in place. This has nothing to do with multipliers.

    So I guess looking for a balanced meta is out of the question? Because that's what I'd like to see. Some of the power creep toned down.

    The way to do so is by reducing burst and by reducing passive invulns. We can't reduce the invulns until damage is lowered.

    The most fair way to lower damage is changing the system from multiplicative to additive, as that affects each class the same way.

    Then shave a second off invulns, shave off 20% from all endurance regen traits.

    Voila, ttk is increased but the game retains its fast pace.

    No? If you take 20% away from endurance regens, you're shortening a fight by 20% in PvP. This would have the opposite effect of what you're trying to accomplish. Taking away iframes will mean that you're always going to be taking that damage, which will also lead to shorter fights, thus accomplishing the opposite of what you're claiming to aim for. I'm starting to feel deceived here.

    Endurance regeneration traits. Adrenal implant etc.

    This makes people use their defensive cds only when needed instead of chaining them together to never take a hit. It promotes skilled plays

    This also hurts bunkers, so we don't move back to a bunker meta.

    It's PvP, they're always needed. That's what the dodge tutorials teach you in every starter zone. How to dodge, and why you should do it. There seems to be some kind of secondary agenda here, and the more I read, the more I feel like someone dodged one of your one shot kill skills, and then, while you were raging about that, one shot killed you, and you had to come up with a reason, and so here we sit, discussing crit multipliers, and nerfing defensive skills and tactics "to make fights longer", despite the fact that it would have the opposite effect. Simple logic there.

    An example scenario: Your system cuts 1 second from iframe, and I use a skill that has a 1 second iframe to dodge your attack. For this example, you cannot crit, there are no crit modifiers, so it's all just base damage. What this does is make it so that instead of avoiding that one attack, I take full damage from it, negating the endurance I spent dodging your attack, and, with a lower regen, making it pointless to try to do so again. How is this going to make a fight last longer? The simple answer is that it's not going to. It's going to make all fights shorter, even ones that would naturally be longer in the current system. That's what happens when you nerf defenses, they are nullified, meaning that you may as well not have them, but this is supposed to improve PvP? For whom?

    You don't understand. People are not using dodges/invulns/defensive cds to avoid a specific attack. They're just chaining them together to never have a vulnerable period at all, because there are too many /cds are too short. Which they have to be as a result of power creep that has made damage too high.

    By reducing damage, we can then reduce iframe uptime. Instead of escalating the arms race, ie. Power creep, we can reduce it. This promotes skillful play and increases ttk

    Evidently you don't understand: there are mechanics in this game that require you to dodge outside of PvP, and they rely on that iframe to negate possible death. Reducing the iframe will not improve the game, it will lead to party wipes in group content where it wouldn't happen. Reducing the regen on endurance will not improve PvE play, it will instead also lead to party wipes that shouldn't have happened. Dungeon and fractal bosses aren't governed by the same rules. The base damage on their attacks is high, and it's high for a reason: It's supposed to be some of the harder content in the game. Decreasing player defenses because you don't like how some people play doesn't improve the game, it hurts it, all to assuage your ego.

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 21, 2018

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I think you are still making some incorrect correlations.

    How damage is calculated has nothing to do with high damage or burst. All variables can be manipulated. The fact that balance patches every X months do not reduce all damage across the board is indicative that developers intend damage to be this high. They CAN reduce damage significantly as seen post PoF launch where elite specializations were flirting with 60k dps and above, for a week.

    Now take into account the move against the bunker meta, thus not wanting to have super tanky builds live for ever in spvp, and you might have a culprit for your issues.

    TL;DR: if you want a more tanky spvp meta, make a case for it and against the anti-bunker approach currently in place. This has nothing to do with multipliers.

    So I guess looking for a balanced meta is out of the question? Because that's what I'd like to see. Some of the power creep toned down.

    The way to do so is by reducing burst and by reducing passive invulns. We can't reduce the invulns until damage is lowered.

    The most fair way to lower damage is changing the system from multiplicative to additive, as that affects each class the same way.

    Then shave a second off invulns, shave off 20% from all endurance regen traits.

    Voila, ttk is increased but the game retains its fast pace.

    No? If you take 20% away from endurance regens, you're shortening a fight by 20% in PvP. This would have the opposite effect of what you're trying to accomplish. Taking away iframes will mean that you're always going to be taking that damage, which will also lead to shorter fights, thus accomplishing the opposite of what you're claiming to aim for. I'm starting to feel deceived here.

    Endurance regeneration traits. Adrenal implant etc.

    This makes people use their defensive cds only when needed instead of chaining them together to never take a hit. It promotes skilled plays

    This also hurts bunkers, so we don't move back to a bunker meta.

    It's PvP, they're always needed. That's what the dodge tutorials teach you in every starter zone. How to dodge, and why you should do it. There seems to be some kind of secondary agenda here, and the more I read, the more I feel like someone dodged one of your one shot kill skills, and then, while you were raging about that, one shot killed you, and you had to come up with a reason, and so here we sit, discussing crit multipliers, and nerfing defensive skills and tactics "to make fights longer", despite the fact that it would have the opposite effect. Simple logic there.

    An example scenario: Your system cuts 1 second from iframe, and I use a skill that has a 1 second iframe to dodge your attack. For this example, you cannot crit, there are no crit modifiers, so it's all just base damage. What this does is make it so that instead of avoiding that one attack, I take full damage from it, negating the endurance I spent dodging your attack, and, with a lower regen, making it pointless to try to do so again. How is this going to make a fight last longer? The simple answer is that it's not going to. It's going to make all fights shorter, even ones that would naturally be longer in the current system. That's what happens when you nerf defenses, they are nullified, meaning that you may as well not have them, but this is supposed to improve PvP? For whom?

    You don't understand. People are not using dodges/invulns/defensive cds to avoid a specific attack. They're just chaining them together to never have a vulnerable period at all, because there are too many /cds are too short. Which they have to be as a result of power creep that has made damage too high.

    By reducing damage, we can then reduce iframe uptime. Instead of escalating the arms race, ie. Power creep, we can reduce it. This promotes skillful play and increases ttk

    Evidently you don't understand: there are mechanics in this game that require you to dodge outside of PvP, and they rely on that iframe to negate possible death. Reducing the iframe will not improve the game, it will lead to party wipes in group content where it wouldn't happen. Reducing the regen on endurance will not improve PvE play, it will instead also lead to party wipes that shouldn't have happened. Dungeon and fractal bosses aren't governed by the same rules. The base damage on their attacks is high, and it's high for a reason: It's supposed to be some of the harder content in the game. Decreasing player defenses because you don't like how some people play doesn't improve the game, it hurts it, all to assuage your ego.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invulnerability

    name one meta pve build that relies on these skills/traits.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Endurance

    how about these ones? which pve builds even run these traitlines and choose those traits over damage oriented traits? which pve builds use orrian meat and truffle, educate me.

    i love that you're bringing dungeons into it too, because those are really challenging pve content lmao

    https://snowcrows.com/

    staff daredevil takes staff mastery, and they take it for the damage increase. That's the only one.

  • @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I think you are still making some incorrect correlations.

    How damage is calculated has nothing to do with high damage or burst. All variables can be manipulated. The fact that balance patches every X months do not reduce all damage across the board is indicative that developers intend damage to be this high. They CAN reduce damage significantly as seen post PoF launch where elite specializations were flirting with 60k dps and above, for a week.

    Now take into account the move against the bunker meta, thus not wanting to have super tanky builds live for ever in spvp, and you might have a culprit for your issues.

    TL;DR: if you want a more tanky spvp meta, make a case for it and against the anti-bunker approach currently in place. This has nothing to do with multipliers.

    So I guess looking for a balanced meta is out of the question? Because that's what I'd like to see. Some of the power creep toned down.

    The way to do so is by reducing burst and by reducing passive invulns. We can't reduce the invulns until damage is lowered.

    The most fair way to lower damage is changing the system from multiplicative to additive, as that affects each class the same way.

    Then shave a second off invulns, shave off 20% from all endurance regen traits.

    Voila, ttk is increased but the game retains its fast pace.

    No? If you take 20% away from endurance regens, you're shortening a fight by 20% in PvP. This would have the opposite effect of what you're trying to accomplish. Taking away iframes will mean that you're always going to be taking that damage, which will also lead to shorter fights, thus accomplishing the opposite of what you're claiming to aim for. I'm starting to feel deceived here.

    Endurance regeneration traits. Adrenal implant etc.

    This makes people use their defensive cds only when needed instead of chaining them together to never take a hit. It promotes skilled plays

    This also hurts bunkers, so we don't move back to a bunker meta.

    It's PvP, they're always needed. That's what the dodge tutorials teach you in every starter zone. How to dodge, and why you should do it. There seems to be some kind of secondary agenda here, and the more I read, the more I feel like someone dodged one of your one shot kill skills, and then, while you were raging about that, one shot killed you, and you had to come up with a reason, and so here we sit, discussing crit multipliers, and nerfing defensive skills and tactics "to make fights longer", despite the fact that it would have the opposite effect. Simple logic there.

    An example scenario: Your system cuts 1 second from iframe, and I use a skill that has a 1 second iframe to dodge your attack. For this example, you cannot crit, there are no crit modifiers, so it's all just base damage. What this does is make it so that instead of avoiding that one attack, I take full damage from it, negating the endurance I spent dodging your attack, and, with a lower regen, making it pointless to try to do so again. How is this going to make a fight last longer? The simple answer is that it's not going to. It's going to make all fights shorter, even ones that would naturally be longer in the current system. That's what happens when you nerf defenses, they are nullified, meaning that you may as well not have them, but this is supposed to improve PvP? For whom?

    You don't understand. People are not using dodges/invulns/defensive cds to avoid a specific attack. They're just chaining them together to never have a vulnerable period at all, because there are too many /cds are too short. Which they have to be as a result of power creep that has made damage too high.

    By reducing damage, we can then reduce iframe uptime. Instead of escalating the arms race, ie. Power creep, we can reduce it. This promotes skillful play and increases ttk

    Evidently you don't understand: there are mechanics in this game that require you to dodge outside of PvP, and they rely on that iframe to negate possible death. Reducing the iframe will not improve the game, it will lead to party wipes in group content where it wouldn't happen. Reducing the regen on endurance will not improve PvE play, it will instead also lead to party wipes that shouldn't have happened. Dungeon and fractal bosses aren't governed by the same rules. The base damage on their attacks is high, and it's high for a reason: It's supposed to be some of the harder content in the game. Decreasing player defenses because you don't like how some people play doesn't improve the game, it hurts it, all to assuage your ego.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invulnerability

    name one meta pve build that relies on these skills/traits.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Endurance

    how about these ones? which pve builds even run these traitlines and choose those traits over damage oriented traits? which pve builds use orrian meat and truffle, educate me.

    i love that you're bringing dungeons into it too, because those are really challenging pve content lmao

    https://snowcrows.com/

    staff daredevil takes staff mastery, and they take it for the damage increase. That's the only one.

    This was exactly what I was talking about. Tell me one class that doesn't have dodge?

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I think you are still making some incorrect correlations.

    How damage is calculated has nothing to do with high damage or burst. All variables can be manipulated. The fact that balance patches every X months do not reduce all damage across the board is indicative that developers intend damage to be this high. They CAN reduce damage significantly as seen post PoF launch where elite specializations were flirting with 60k dps and above, for a week.

    Now take into account the move against the bunker meta, thus not wanting to have super tanky builds live for ever in spvp, and you might have a culprit for your issues.

    TL;DR: if you want a more tanky spvp meta, make a case for it and against the anti-bunker approach currently in place. This has nothing to do with multipliers.

    So I guess looking for a balanced meta is out of the question? Because that's what I'd like to see. Some of the power creep toned down.

    The way to do so is by reducing burst and by reducing passive invulns. We can't reduce the invulns until damage is lowered.

    The most fair way to lower damage is changing the system from multiplicative to additive, as that affects each class the same way.

    Then shave a second off invulns, shave off 20% from all endurance regen traits.

    Voila, ttk is increased but the game retains its fast pace.

    No? If you take 20% away from endurance regens, you're shortening a fight by 20% in PvP. This would have the opposite effect of what you're trying to accomplish. Taking away iframes will mean that you're always going to be taking that damage, which will also lead to shorter fights, thus accomplishing the opposite of what you're claiming to aim for. I'm starting to feel deceived here.

    Endurance regeneration traits. Adrenal implant etc.

    This makes people use their defensive cds only when needed instead of chaining them together to never take a hit. It promotes skilled plays

    This also hurts bunkers, so we don't move back to a bunker meta.

    It's PvP, they're always needed. That's what the dodge tutorials teach you in every starter zone. How to dodge, and why you should do it. There seems to be some kind of secondary agenda here, and the more I read, the more I feel like someone dodged one of your one shot kill skills, and then, while you were raging about that, one shot killed you, and you had to come up with a reason, and so here we sit, discussing crit multipliers, and nerfing defensive skills and tactics "to make fights longer", despite the fact that it would have the opposite effect. Simple logic there.

    An example scenario: Your system cuts 1 second from iframe, and I use a skill that has a 1 second iframe to dodge your attack. For this example, you cannot crit, there are no crit modifiers, so it's all just base damage. What this does is make it so that instead of avoiding that one attack, I take full damage from it, negating the endurance I spent dodging your attack, and, with a lower regen, making it pointless to try to do so again. How is this going to make a fight last longer? The simple answer is that it's not going to. It's going to make all fights shorter, even ones that would naturally be longer in the current system. That's what happens when you nerf defenses, they are nullified, meaning that you may as well not have them, but this is supposed to improve PvP? For whom?

    You don't understand. People are not using dodges/invulns/defensive cds to avoid a specific attack. They're just chaining them together to never have a vulnerable period at all, because there are too many /cds are too short. Which they have to be as a result of power creep that has made damage too high.

    By reducing damage, we can then reduce iframe uptime. Instead of escalating the arms race, ie. Power creep, we can reduce it. This promotes skillful play and increases ttk

    Evidently you don't understand: there are mechanics in this game that require you to dodge outside of PvP, and they rely on that iframe to negate possible death. Reducing the iframe will not improve the game, it will lead to party wipes in group content where it wouldn't happen. Reducing the regen on endurance will not improve PvE play, it will instead also lead to party wipes that shouldn't have happened. Dungeon and fractal bosses aren't governed by the same rules. The base damage on their attacks is high, and it's high for a reason: It's supposed to be some of the harder content in the game. Decreasing player defenses because you don't like how some people play doesn't improve the game, it hurts it, all to assuage your ego.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invulnerability

    name one meta pve build that relies on these skills/traits.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Endurance

    how about these ones? which pve builds even run these traitlines and choose those traits over damage oriented traits? which pve builds use orrian meat and truffle, educate me.

    i love that you're bringing dungeons into it too, because those are really challenging pve content lmao

    https://snowcrows.com/

    staff daredevil takes staff mastery, and they take it for the damage increase. That's the only one.

    This was exactly what I was talking about. Tell me one class that doesn't have dodge?

    Tf are you talking about? They all do. Read above, where I repeatedly state endurance regen TRAITS. Which increase endurance regen, which allows too much sustain without investment into any defensive stats. Which are almost all used on every meta pvp/WvW build.

    Nerfing those will have 0 effect on pve. Absolutely no effect. Reducing them greatly reduces power creep in pvp/WvW. Which is the desired result!

  • Can't honestly think of any reason why not other than the transition period needed to adjust everything afterwards where everything does too much damage in one mode and too little damage in another.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 21, 2018

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I think you are still making some incorrect correlations.

    How damage is calculated has nothing to do with high damage or burst. All variables can be manipulated. The fact that balance patches every X months do not reduce all damage across the board is indicative that developers intend damage to be this high. They CAN reduce damage significantly as seen post PoF launch where elite specializations were flirting with 60k dps and above, for a week.

    Now take into account the move against the bunker meta, thus not wanting to have super tanky builds live for ever in spvp, and you might have a culprit for your issues.

    TL;DR: if you want a more tanky spvp meta, make a case for it and against the anti-bunker approach currently in place. This has nothing to do with multipliers.

    So I guess looking for a balanced meta is out of the question? Because that's what I'd like to see. Some of the power creep toned down.

    The way to do so is by reducing burst and by reducing passive invulns. We can't reduce the invulns until damage is lowered.

    The most fair way to lower damage is changing the system from multiplicative to additive, as that affects each class the same way.

    Then shave a second off invulns, shave off 20% from all endurance regen traits.

    Voila, ttk is increased but the game retains its fast pace.

    You keep jumping around wildly.

    First off, I did not say I was against a balanced meta. I said you have not yet provided solid arguments on that or any basis.

    Changing calculations between two systems where all variables can be affected is not the underlying issue. This is the main theme of your topic and title to the topic. Ergo it is misplaced since you are actually intending to talk about something different, clearly survivability in spvp.

    You now bring in new 1 line suggestions (and no, that is not proper argumentation or feedback) in favor of reducing survivability in spvp while also reducing burst damage.

    Again, ever since I believe end of HoT (was that season 7?, not sure any more) Arenanet actively worked against a bunker meta by removing certain defensive stat combinations from spvp amulets and they continue to do so. The game is pushed towards a faster paced game play with shorter ttk. You can disagree with this, but then argue accordingly and provide ample proof and arguments. 1 liner arguments are not arguments, they are opinions at best.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 21, 2018

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    You don't understand. People are not using dodges/invulns/defensive cds to avoid a specific attack. They're just chaining them together to never have a vulnerable period at all, because there are too many /cds are too short. Which they have to be as a result of power creep that has made damage too high.

    First, it only applies to certain classes/builds. Second, you're exagerrating.

    Think for a second what would happen to, for example, necros after your proposed change.

    By reducing damage, we can then reduce iframe uptime. Instead of escalating the arms race, ie. Power creep, we can reduce it. This promotes skillful play and increases ttk

    The change to iframes/endurance is a much bigger defence nerf than the change you proposed to offense, This promotes fast bursting and decreases ttk. If you nerfed offense more, to compensate, then you'd increase value of builds that do not depend on dodging to survive. Remember first league season bunker auramancers and druids? They depended not on avoiding attacks, but on outhealing everything you could throw at them. Are you sure you want the return of such builds?

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invulnerability

    name one meta pve build that relies on these skills/traits.

    ...chronotank? A lot on dependence on evades, distortion and blocks. Decreasing iframes would make avoiding some boss attacks plain impossible.
    There's a lot of aegis use in general as well. From both chrono and guard.

    which pve builds use orrian meat and truffle, educate me.

    Condi mirage.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I think you are still making some incorrect correlations.

    How damage is calculated has nothing to do with high damage or burst. All variables can be manipulated. The fact that balance patches every X months do not reduce all damage across the board is indicative that developers intend damage to be this high. They CAN reduce damage significantly as seen post PoF launch where elite specializations were flirting with 60k dps and above, for a week.

    Now take into account the move against the bunker meta, thus not wanting to have super tanky builds live for ever in spvp, and you might have a culprit for your issues.

    TL;DR: if you want a more tanky spvp meta, make a case for it and against the anti-bunker approach currently in place. This has nothing to do with multipliers.

    So I guess looking for a balanced meta is out of the question? Because that's what I'd like to see. Some of the power creep toned down.

    The way to do so is by reducing burst and by reducing passive invulns. We can't reduce the invulns until damage is lowered.

    The most fair way to lower damage is changing the system from multiplicative to additive, as that affects each class the same way.

    Then shave a second off invulns, shave off 20% from all endurance regen traits.

    Voila, ttk is increased but the game retains its fast pace.

    No? If you take 20% away from endurance regens, you're shortening a fight by 20% in PvP. This would have the opposite effect of what you're trying to accomplish. Taking away iframes will mean that you're always going to be taking that damage, which will also lead to shorter fights, thus accomplishing the opposite of what you're claiming to aim for. I'm starting to feel deceived here.

    Endurance regeneration traits. Adrenal implant etc.

    This makes people use their defensive cds only when needed instead of chaining them together to never take a hit. It promotes skilled plays

    This also hurts bunkers, so we don't move back to a bunker meta.

    It's PvP, they're always needed. That's what the dodge tutorials teach you in every starter zone. How to dodge, and why you should do it. There seems to be some kind of secondary agenda here, and the more I read, the more I feel like someone dodged one of your one shot kill skills, and then, while you were raging about that, one shot killed you, and you had to come up with a reason, and so here we sit, discussing crit multipliers, and nerfing defensive skills and tactics "to make fights longer", despite the fact that it would have the opposite effect. Simple logic there.

    An example scenario: Your system cuts 1 second from iframe, and I use a skill that has a 1 second iframe to dodge your attack. For this example, you cannot crit, there are no crit modifiers, so it's all just base damage. What this does is make it so that instead of avoiding that one attack, I take full damage from it, negating the endurance I spent dodging your attack, and, with a lower regen, making it pointless to try to do so again. How is this going to make a fight last longer? The simple answer is that it's not going to. It's going to make all fights shorter, even ones that would naturally be longer in the current system. That's what happens when you nerf defenses, they are nullified, meaning that you may as well not have them, but this is supposed to improve PvP? For whom?

    You don't understand. People are not using dodges/invulns/defensive cds to avoid a specific attack. They're just chaining them together to never have a vulnerable period at all, because there are too many /cds are too short. Which they have to be as a result of power creep that has made damage too high.

    By reducing damage, we can then reduce iframe uptime. Instead of escalating the arms race, ie. Power creep, we can reduce it. This promotes skillful play and increases ttk

    Evidently you don't understand: there are mechanics in this game that require you to dodge outside of PvP, and they rely on that iframe to negate possible death. Reducing the iframe will not improve the game, it will lead to party wipes in group content where it wouldn't happen. Reducing the regen on endurance will not improve PvE play, it will instead also lead to party wipes that shouldn't have happened. Dungeon and fractal bosses aren't governed by the same rules. The base damage on their attacks is high, and it's high for a reason: It's supposed to be some of the harder content in the game. Decreasing player defenses because you don't like how some people play doesn't improve the game, it hurts it, all to assuage your ego.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invulnerability

    name one meta pve build that relies on these skills/traits.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Endurance

    how about these ones? which pve builds even run these traitlines and choose those traits over damage oriented traits? which pve builds use orrian meat and truffle, educate me.

    i love that you're bringing dungeons into it too, because those are really challenging pve content lmao

    https://snowcrows.com/

    staff daredevil takes staff mastery, and they take it for the damage increase. That's the only one.

    This was exactly what I was talking about. Tell me one class that doesn't have dodge?

    Tf are you talking about? They all do. Read above, where I repeatedly state endurance regen TRAITS. Which increase endurance regen, which allows too much sustain without investment into any defensive stats. Which are almost all used on every meta pvp/WvW build.

    Nerfing those will have 0 effect on pve. Absolutely no effect. Reducing them greatly reduces power creep in pvp/WvW. Which is the desired result!

    They all do, and you want to diminish the iframe. That you believe it has no effect does not make it true. The only thing you see is "but mah PvP", and everyone else is a sacrificial lamb for your objective. I'm shocked, shocked, I say, to find out that people playing PvP would have the audacity to slot traits that make them more proficient at it.

    Surely, if PvP were in as bad a state as you claim, there'd be dozens of threads flooding the forums. I've been around MMOs for nearly 30 years, and any time something is significantly broken, or perceived as such, the forums are awash with it. Why is that this is the only thread claiming that PvP builds make PvP imbalanced? Why, do you suppose, all the other players in PvP aren't jumping in here in support of your brilliant idea? Do you suppose it's because they don't think it's a problem, or is it that they don't find it to be a brilliant idea?

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I think you are still making some incorrect correlations.

    How damage is calculated has nothing to do with high damage or burst. All variables can be manipulated. The fact that balance patches every X months do not reduce all damage across the board is indicative that developers intend damage to be this high. They CAN reduce damage significantly as seen post PoF launch where elite specializations were flirting with 60k dps and above, for a week.

    Now take into account the move against the bunker meta, thus not wanting to have super tanky builds live for ever in spvp, and you might have a culprit for your issues.

    TL;DR: if you want a more tanky spvp meta, make a case for it and against the anti-bunker approach currently in place. This has nothing to do with multipliers.

    So I guess looking for a balanced meta is out of the question? Because that's what I'd like to see. Some of the power creep toned down.

    The way to do so is by reducing burst and by reducing passive invulns. We can't reduce the invulns until damage is lowered.

    The most fair way to lower damage is changing the system from multiplicative to additive, as that affects each class the same way.

    Then shave a second off invulns, shave off 20% from all endurance regen traits.

    Voila, ttk is increased but the game retains its fast pace.

    You keep jumping around wildly.

    First off, I did not say I was against a balanced meta. I said you have not yet provided solid arguments on that or any basis.

    Changing calculations between two systems where all variables can be affected is not the underlying issue. This is the main theme of your topic and title to the topic. Ergo it is misplaced since you are actually intending to talk about something different, clearly survivability in spvp.

    You now bring in new 1 line suggestions (and no, that is not proper argumentation or feedback) in favor of reducing survivability in spvp while also reducing burst damage.

    Again, ever since I believe end of HoT (was that season 7?, not sure any more) Arenanet actively worked against a bunker meta by removing certain defensive stat combinations from spvp amulets and they continue to do so. The game is pushed towards a faster paced game play with shorter ttk. You can disagree with this, but then argue accordingly and provide ample proof and arguments. 1 liner arguments are not arguments, they are opinions at best.

    damage needs to be toned down=power creep needs addressed=ttk is too low, pretty sure that's the same message. the best way to do it is to hit everyone equally with a single change.

    by changing the system to additive and skill splitting the bonuses, doubling them in pve, you have an easy solution that both decreases damage in spvp/wvw and does not impact pve. the new system is easier to balance around and intuitive for players that play multiple game modes, the traits still provide a % damage increase it's just a matter of how much of one.

    the endurance regen trait/iframe nerf only applies to a few of the meta builds, which isn't a strong enough nerf to take them out of the meta but is enough of a hit to lower the amount of iframes available too them. this would increase skill level, as you need to choose when to use those iframes vs chaining them all together as is the case right now. This keeps the game fast paced but decreases the number of outliers possible. it also limits future power creep.

    pretty sure these changes accomplish the goal of increasing ttk in pvp/wvw without slowing down the game mode, and simultaneously don't have a huge impact on pve.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2018

    This suggestion is a fallacy; you don't need to remove multipliers to fix the problems you are talking about. It doesn't even seem like a good way to do it, or if the things you think are problems actually are in the first place.

    The discussion is all very academic anyways. I mean, the OP convinced himself there is a problem, convinced himself removing the multipliers was the best approach to do it and wrapped the idea of a goal to achieve around it. It's tunnel vision.

    What makes you think it's not already easy enough to balance, or that Anet cares anyways? What makes you think the pace of the game is too great? These are YOUR visions for the game. Why do you think they are anyone elses?

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    You don't understand. People are not using dodges/invulns/defensive cds to avoid a specific attack. They're just chaining them together to never have a vulnerable period at all, because there are too many /cds are too short. Which they have to be as a result of power creep that has made damage too high.

    First, it only applies to certain classes/builds. Second, you're exagerrating.

    Think for a second what would happen to, for example, necros after your proposed change.

    By reducing damage, we can then reduce iframe uptime. Instead of escalating the arms race, ie. Power creep, we can reduce it. This promotes skillful play and increases ttk

    The change to iframes/endurance is a much bigger defence nerf than the change you proposed to offense, This promotes fast bursting and decreases ttk. If you nerfed offense more, to compensate, then you'd increase value of builds that do not depend on dodging to survive. Remember first league season bunker auramancers and druids? They depended not on avoiding attacks, but on outhealing everything you could throw at them. Are you sure you want the return of such builds?

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invulnerability

    name one meta pve build that relies on these skills/traits.

    ...chronotank? A lot on dependence on evades, distortion and blocks. Decreasing iframes would make avoiding some boss attacks plain impossible.
    There's a lot of aegis use in general as well. From both chrono and guard.

    which pve builds use orrian meat and truffle, educate me.

    Condi mirage.

    it's not an exaggeration. top revs, mirage, holos, and sbs right now are literally untouchable for 15s at a time, and all have excellent disengage tools. they have this with glass damage builds. that is an awful design choice because it promotes a system where you don't choose when to use defensive cds, you just chain them together. in wvw its just as bad, you're either at full hp or completely down. it doesn't matter if you're on a tank build or not.

    if damage is reduced and iframes/endurance regen stays where it is we'll have another bunker meta. which is not a desirable outcome. by going after these instead of healing, we keep ttk low but don't reduce the amount of skilled play. it just forces some overperformers to use their defensive CDs at the right time instead of spamming them. The amulets needed for healing tanks to function aren't in spvp anymore, so nothing to worry about there.

    chronotank doesn't have any endurance regen traits. and distortion requires clones to use effectively for more than 1s anyways.

    you're right on condi mirage. how much of a damage loss is it to take a condi/duration food over orrian and meat truffle? do you think that amount of damage lost on one spec is enough to justify a food that literally breaks wvw roaming for every class?

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I think you are still making some incorrect correlations.

    How damage is calculated has nothing to do with high damage or burst. All variables can be manipulated. The fact that balance patches every X months do not reduce all damage across the board is indicative that developers intend damage to be this high. They CAN reduce damage significantly as seen post PoF launch where elite specializations were flirting with 60k dps and above, for a week.

    Now take into account the move against the bunker meta, thus not wanting to have super tanky builds live for ever in spvp, and you might have a culprit for your issues.

    TL;DR: if you want a more tanky spvp meta, make a case for it and against the anti-bunker approach currently in place. This has nothing to do with multipliers.

    So I guess looking for a balanced meta is out of the question? Because that's what I'd like to see. Some of the power creep toned down.

    The way to do so is by reducing burst and by reducing passive invulns. We can't reduce the invulns until damage is lowered.

    The most fair way to lower damage is changing the system from multiplicative to additive, as that affects each class the same way.

    Then shave a second off invulns, shave off 20% from all endurance regen traits.

    Voila, ttk is increased but the game retains its fast pace.

    No? If you take 20% away from endurance regens, you're shortening a fight by 20% in PvP. This would have the opposite effect of what you're trying to accomplish. Taking away iframes will mean that you're always going to be taking that damage, which will also lead to shorter fights, thus accomplishing the opposite of what you're claiming to aim for. I'm starting to feel deceived here.

    Endurance regeneration traits. Adrenal implant etc.

    This makes people use their defensive cds only when needed instead of chaining them together to never take a hit. It promotes skilled plays

    This also hurts bunkers, so we don't move back to a bunker meta.

    It's PvP, they're always needed. That's what the dodge tutorials teach you in every starter zone. How to dodge, and why you should do it. There seems to be some kind of secondary agenda here, and the more I read, the more I feel like someone dodged one of your one shot kill skills, and then, while you were raging about that, one shot killed you, and you had to come up with a reason, and so here we sit, discussing crit multipliers, and nerfing defensive skills and tactics "to make fights longer", despite the fact that it would have the opposite effect. Simple logic there.

    An example scenario: Your system cuts 1 second from iframe, and I use a skill that has a 1 second iframe to dodge your attack. For this example, you cannot crit, there are no crit modifiers, so it's all just base damage. What this does is make it so that instead of avoiding that one attack, I take full damage from it, negating the endurance I spent dodging your attack, and, with a lower regen, making it pointless to try to do so again. How is this going to make a fight last longer? The simple answer is that it's not going to. It's going to make all fights shorter, even ones that would naturally be longer in the current system. That's what happens when you nerf defenses, they are nullified, meaning that you may as well not have them, but this is supposed to improve PvP? For whom?

    You don't understand. People are not using dodges/invulns/defensive cds to avoid a specific attack. They're just chaining them together to never have a vulnerable period at all, because there are too many /cds are too short. Which they have to be as a result of power creep that has made damage too high.

    By reducing damage, we can then reduce iframe uptime. Instead of escalating the arms race, ie. Power creep, we can reduce it. This promotes skillful play and increases ttk

    Evidently you don't understand: there are mechanics in this game that require you to dodge outside of PvP, and they rely on that iframe to negate possible death. Reducing the iframe will not improve the game, it will lead to party wipes in group content where it wouldn't happen. Reducing the regen on endurance will not improve PvE play, it will instead also lead to party wipes that shouldn't have happened. Dungeon and fractal bosses aren't governed by the same rules. The base damage on their attacks is high, and it's high for a reason: It's supposed to be some of the harder content in the game. Decreasing player defenses because you don't like how some people play doesn't improve the game, it hurts it, all to assuage your ego.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invulnerability

    name one meta pve build that relies on these skills/traits.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Endurance

    how about these ones? which pve builds even run these traitlines and choose those traits over damage oriented traits? which pve builds use orrian meat and truffle, educate me.

    i love that you're bringing dungeons into it too, because those are really challenging pve content lmao

    https://snowcrows.com/

    staff daredevil takes staff mastery, and they take it for the damage increase. That's the only one.

    This was exactly what I was talking about. Tell me one class that doesn't have dodge?

    Tf are you talking about? They all do. Read above, where I repeatedly state endurance regen TRAITS. Which increase endurance regen, which allows too much sustain without investment into any defensive stats. Which are almost all used on every meta pvp/WvW build.

    Nerfing those will have 0 effect on pve. Absolutely no effect. Reducing them greatly reduces power creep in pvp/WvW. Which is the desired result!

    They all do, and you want to diminish the iframe. That you believe it has no effect does not make it true. The only thing you see is "but mah PvP", and everyone else is a sacrificial lamb for your objective. I'm shocked, shocked, I say, to find out that people playing PvP would have the audacity to slot traits that make them more proficient at it.

    Surely, if PvP were in as bad a state as you claim, there'd be dozens of threads flooding the forums. I've been around MMOs for nearly 30 years, and any time something is significantly broken, or perceived as such, the forums are awash with it. Why is that this is the only thread claiming that PvP builds make PvP imbalanced? Why, do you suppose, all the other players in PvP aren't jumping in here in support of your brilliant idea? Do you suppose it's because they don't think it's a problem, or is it that they don't find it to be a brilliant idea?

    check out snowcrows, or qt, or any other pve build website. none of the pve builds use those traits or skills. none of them. they are purely for pvp, and they are too strong. use the search function in the pvp section, there are complaints about them every single week going back years.

    speaking of the pvp section, how about taking a gander in there? the forum is flooded with threads about nerf x buff y because x is OP. thing is, it's always the same complaint, x does too much damage or has no vulnerable period.

    I'm going to assume it's because people who pvp don't visit the pve section. i'll post it over there though, lets see if it gets support?

  • well im all for a damage reduction across the board. all these one shots are annoying.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    This suggestion is a fallacy; you don't need to remove multipliers to fix the problems you are talking about. It doesn't even seem like a good way to do it, or if the things you think are problems actually are in the first place.

    The discussion is all very academic anyways. I mean, the OP convinced himself there is a problem, convinced himself removing the multipliers was the best approach to do it and wrapped the idea of a goal to achieve around it. It's tunnel vision.

    What makes you think it's not already easy enough to balance, or that Anet cares anyways? What makes you think the pace of the game is too great? These are YOUR visions for the game. Why do you think they are anyone elses?

    this doesn't remove any of the modifiers, just decreases how effective they are when stacked on one another. i'd like to think a multimillion dollar gaming company cares about retaining its players to keep the cash flow coming?

    The forum is littered with complaints about the power creep that has been building up. scroll through the pvp and wvw sections. I don't see anyone posting solutions, this is an effective solution. i haven't seen a single reason why it wouldn't work, it only targets the outliers that give the balance team a hard time every single patch.

  • @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    You don't understand. People are not using dodges/invulns/defensive cds to avoid a specific attack. They're just chaining them together to never have a vulnerable period at all, because there are too many /cds are too short. Which they have to be as a result of power creep that has made damage too high.

    First, it only applies to certain classes/builds. Second, you're exagerrating.

    Think for a second what would happen to, for example, necros after your proposed change.

    By reducing damage, we can then reduce iframe uptime. Instead of escalating the arms race, ie. Power creep, we can reduce it. This promotes skillful play and increases ttk

    The change to iframes/endurance is a much bigger defence nerf than the change you proposed to offense, This promotes fast bursting and decreases ttk. If you nerfed offense more, to compensate, then you'd increase value of builds that do not depend on dodging to survive. Remember first league season bunker auramancers and druids? They depended not on avoiding attacks, but on outhealing everything you could throw at them. Are you sure you want the return of such builds?

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invulnerability

    name one meta pve build that relies on these skills/traits.

    ...chronotank? A lot on dependence on evades, distortion and blocks. Decreasing iframes would make avoiding some boss attacks plain impossible.
    There's a lot of aegis use in general as well. From both chrono and guard.

    which pve builds use orrian meat and truffle, educate me.

    Condi mirage.

    it's not an exaggeration. top revs, mirage, holos, and sbs right now are literally untouchable for 15s at a time, and all have excellent disengage tools. they have this with glass damage builds. that is an awful design choice because it promotes a system where you don't choose when to use defensive cds, you just chain them together. in wvw its just as bad, you're either at full hp or completely down. it doesn't matter if you're on a tank build or not.

    if damage is reduced and iframes/endurance regen stays where it is we'll have another bunker meta. which is not a desirable outcome. by going after these instead of healing, we keep ttk low but don't reduce the amount of skilled play. it just forces some overperformers to use their defensive CDs at the right time instead of spamming them. The amulets needed for healing tanks to function aren't in spvp anymore, so nothing to worry about there.

    chronotank doesn't have any endurance regen traits. and distortion requires clones to use effectively for more than 1s anyways.

    you're right on condi mirage. how much of a damage loss is it to take a condi/duration food over orrian and meat truffle? do you think that amount of damage lost on one spec is enough to justify a food that literally breaks wvw roaming for every class?

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I think you are still making some incorrect correlations.

    How damage is calculated has nothing to do with high damage or burst. All variables can be manipulated. The fact that balance patches every X months do not reduce all damage across the board is indicative that developers intend damage to be this high. They CAN reduce damage significantly as seen post PoF launch where elite specializations were flirting with 60k dps and above, for a week.

    Now take into account the move against the bunker meta, thus not wanting to have super tanky builds live for ever in spvp, and you might have a culprit for your issues.

    TL;DR: if you want a more tanky spvp meta, make a case for it and against the anti-bunker approach currently in place. This has nothing to do with multipliers.

    So I guess looking for a balanced meta is out of the question? Because that's what I'd like to see. Some of the power creep toned down.

    The way to do so is by reducing burst and by reducing passive invulns. We can't reduce the invulns until damage is lowered.

    The most fair way to lower damage is changing the system from multiplicative to additive, as that affects each class the same way.

    Then shave a second off invulns, shave off 20% from all endurance regen traits.

    Voila, ttk is increased but the game retains its fast pace.

    No? If you take 20% away from endurance regens, you're shortening a fight by 20% in PvP. This would have the opposite effect of what you're trying to accomplish. Taking away iframes will mean that you're always going to be taking that damage, which will also lead to shorter fights, thus accomplishing the opposite of what you're claiming to aim for. I'm starting to feel deceived here.

    Endurance regeneration traits. Adrenal implant etc.

    This makes people use their defensive cds only when needed instead of chaining them together to never take a hit. It promotes skilled plays

    This also hurts bunkers, so we don't move back to a bunker meta.

    It's PvP, they're always needed. That's what the dodge tutorials teach you in every starter zone. How to dodge, and why you should do it. There seems to be some kind of secondary agenda here, and the more I read, the more I feel like someone dodged one of your one shot kill skills, and then, while you were raging about that, one shot killed you, and you had to come up with a reason, and so here we sit, discussing crit multipliers, and nerfing defensive skills and tactics "to make fights longer", despite the fact that it would have the opposite effect. Simple logic there.

    An example scenario: Your system cuts 1 second from iframe, and I use a skill that has a 1 second iframe to dodge your attack. For this example, you cannot crit, there are no crit modifiers, so it's all just base damage. What this does is make it so that instead of avoiding that one attack, I take full damage from it, negating the endurance I spent dodging your attack, and, with a lower regen, making it pointless to try to do so again. How is this going to make a fight last longer? The simple answer is that it's not going to. It's going to make all fights shorter, even ones that would naturally be longer in the current system. That's what happens when you nerf defenses, they are nullified, meaning that you may as well not have them, but this is supposed to improve PvP? For whom?

    You don't understand. People are not using dodges/invulns/defensive cds to avoid a specific attack. They're just chaining them together to never have a vulnerable period at all, because there are too many /cds are too short. Which they have to be as a result of power creep that has made damage too high.

    By reducing damage, we can then reduce iframe uptime. Instead of escalating the arms race, ie. Power creep, we can reduce it. This promotes skillful play and increases ttk

    Evidently you don't understand: there are mechanics in this game that require you to dodge outside of PvP, and they rely on that iframe to negate possible death. Reducing the iframe will not improve the game, it will lead to party wipes in group content where it wouldn't happen. Reducing the regen on endurance will not improve PvE play, it will instead also lead to party wipes that shouldn't have happened. Dungeon and fractal bosses aren't governed by the same rules. The base damage on their attacks is high, and it's high for a reason: It's supposed to be some of the harder content in the game. Decreasing player defenses because you don't like how some people play doesn't improve the game, it hurts it, all to assuage your ego.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invulnerability

    name one meta pve build that relies on these skills/traits.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Endurance

    how about these ones? which pve builds even run these traitlines and choose those traits over damage oriented traits? which pve builds use orrian meat and truffle, educate me.

    i love that you're bringing dungeons into it too, because those are really challenging pve content lmao

    https://snowcrows.com/

    staff daredevil takes staff mastery, and they take it for the damage increase. That's the only one.

    This was exactly what I was talking about. Tell me one class that doesn't have dodge?

    Tf are you talking about? They all do. Read above, where I repeatedly state endurance regen TRAITS. Which increase endurance regen, which allows too much sustain without investment into any defensive stats. Which are almost all used on every meta pvp/WvW build.

    Nerfing those will have 0 effect on pve. Absolutely no effect. Reducing them greatly reduces power creep in pvp/WvW. Which is the desired result!

    They all do, and you want to diminish the iframe. That you believe it has no effect does not make it true. The only thing you see is "but mah PvP", and everyone else is a sacrificial lamb for your objective. I'm shocked, shocked, I say, to find out that people playing PvP would have the audacity to slot traits that make them more proficient at it.

    Surely, if PvP were in as bad a state as you claim, there'd be dozens of threads flooding the forums. I've been around MMOs for nearly 30 years, and any time something is significantly broken, or perceived as such, the forums are awash with it. Why is that this is the only thread claiming that PvP builds make PvP imbalanced? Why, do you suppose, all the other players in PvP aren't jumping in here in support of your brilliant idea? Do you suppose it's because they don't think it's a problem, or is it that they don't find it to be a brilliant idea?

    check out snowcrows, or qt, or any other pve build website. none of the pve builds use those traits or skills. none of them. they are purely for pvp, and they are too strong. use the search function in the pvp section, there are complaints about them every single week going back years.

    speaking of the pvp section, how about taking a gander in there? the forum is flooded with threads about nerf x buff y because x is OP. thing is, it's always the same complaint, x does too much damage or has no vulnerable period.

    I'm going to assume it's because people who pvp don't visit the pve section. i'll post it over there though, lets see if it gets support?

    You mean the Rock, paper scissors meme threads? In almost 30 years of MMO gaming, I've seen them all. In an old Korean Grinder called Rappelz I used to play, you almost literally needed a canoe to navigate the PvP forums, and this was right at 20 years ago. It was really bad on the hardcore rules server, there you could drop your gear if you lost. I've watched "for balance" patches break PvE in more games than I care to mention, and it was really prominent in swtor, where some classes couldn't raid any more because of the nerfs. The bosses all had rage timers, and if you didn't beat the timer, it was a wipe, and the dps was cut so bad that these classes couldn't contribute. So let's not try to pretend I'm some nub fresh off the boat, ok? I understand what the PvP community is like, at least on the forums, across the industry. Any class that's being played well is OP according to PVPJonny, who believes he's the best player in the world.

    Here's a funny for you, I've had a poster try to tell me that PvPers were the only ones keeping the lights on in DDO, a game where the PvP is limited to bar room brawls and dueling zones. There might be 100 people across the whole game who PvP at all. They tried to pull one of these threads: Nerf everyone for PvP balance. Turbine, now Standing Stone Games told them to either PvP the way it is, or find a more PvPcentric game to play, because they weren't nerfing anything for PvP. It's 11 years old, and didn't require PvP to stay running. I hope they don't say anything too mean to you over there, although I expect you'll get a lot of "git gud" and "L2P".

  • I really should have mentioned that if balance team discussions go like the way this one has, the time it would take to transition and re-balance would be a significant hindrance to this idea.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2018

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    This suggestion is a fallacy; you don't need to remove multipliers to fix the problems you are talking about. It doesn't even seem like a good way to do it, or if the things you think are problems actually are in the first place.

    The discussion is all very academic anyways. I mean, the OP convinced himself there is a problem, convinced himself removing the multipliers was the best approach to do it and wrapped the idea of a goal to achieve around it. It's tunnel vision.

    What makes you think it's not already easy enough to balance, or that Anet cares anyways? What makes you think the pace of the game is too great? These are YOUR visions for the game. Why do you think they are anyone elses?

    this doesn't remove any of the modifiers, just decreases how effective they are when stacked on one another. i'd like to think a multimillion dollar gaming company cares about retaining its players to keep the cash flow coming?

    The forum is littered with complaints about the power creep that has been building up. scroll through the pvp and wvw sections. I don't see anyone posting solutions, this is an effective solution. i haven't seen a single reason why it wouldn't work, it only targets the outliers that give the balance team a hard time every single patch.

    I understand what it does. The forum being littered with power creep doesn't actually mean it's a problem; in case you haven't noticed, forum dwellers like to sensationalize their 'problems' with the game, thinking it's an effective tactic to get the change they desire. You don't see any reason it wouldn't work is because you don't see the practical side of actually implementing it. Again, don't assume that this is somehow an outlier that the balance team has a hard time during patch and don't assume the balance team are a bunch of doofus that wouldn't come to the same conclusion you have ... IF it was true. We know Anet will change things if those things don't work for them ... and multipliers are no exception to that.

    The answer to your question of 'why not' change it is because clearly, whatever obstacle it poses to Anet, they deal with it and haven't concluded that there is any drastic actions needed to be done to change it to the level you are suggesting. Not yet anyways. Personally, I don't see an issue with multipliers. They aren't excessive and they don't pose some massive threat to how the game works, EVEN in PVP. If anything, the counterplay to high damage burst multiplier is similar high damage burst mitigation; your suggestion isn't the only solution to whatever problem you envision.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2018

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    check out snowcrows, or qt, or any other pve build website. none of the pve builds use those traits or skills. none of them.

    You do remember you asked for iframes to be reduced, a change that hits every build regardless of traits used? That change alone would make some very negative consequences fo boss tanking in raid format. Chrono tanking capability practically depends on having a ton of those.

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    it's not an exaggeration. top revs, mirage, holos, and sbs right now are literally untouchable for 15s at a time

    15s at a time is not the same as "no vulnerable period at all". Since the beginning of the game, there haven't been even a single build capable of the latter. Granted, a few did come close before they got nerfed, but it doesn't make your claim any less of an exagerration.

    if damage is reduced and iframes/endurance regen stays where it is we'll have another bunker meta. which is not a desirable outcome. by going after these instead of healing, we keep ttk low but don't reduce the amount of skilled play. it just forces some overperformers to use their defensive CDs at the right time instead of spamming them. The amulets needed for healing tanks to function aren't in spvp anymore, so nothing to worry about there.

    They are present in wvw however, if you haven't forgotten.

    chronotank doesn't have any endurance regen traits. and distortion requires clones to use effectively for more than 1s anyways.

    sword 2 and 4, shield 4, precog, disto on signets, aegis share...
    You obviously have absolutely no idea of the build and how it is played.

    check out snowcrows, or qt, or any other pve build website. none of the pve builds use those traits or skills. none of them.

    See the chronotank mention above.

    use the search function in the pvp section, there are complaints about them every single week going back years.

    I do remember massive complains about rangers too in the first years in spvp, at the time they were at their weakest and mostly considered a joke by anyone with even a bit of skill.
    In pvp forums there are complains about every single class being ridiculously op. At the same time there are also complains about every single class being ridiculously underpowered.
    Just the amount of posts alone is not an argument in this case, unless they consistently are about the very same skill/trait/class. But even then some better arguments would be required than just that.

    speaking of the pvp section, how about taking a gander in there? the forum is flooded with threads about nerf x buff y because x is OP. thing is, it's always the same complaint, x does too much damage or has no vulnerable period.

    The classes it's being aimed at (and the classes that should be buffed) do change with every post, though.

    If you have a problem with some classes and skills being too strong in competitive formats, ask for a balance pass on those classes, skills and traits. Do not ask for a general nerf to everything, including things you obviously have no understanding of.
    And please, do get yourself some solid arguments first, instead of relying on exagerrations and panic-mongering.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    You don't understand. People are not using dodges/invulns/defensive cds to avoid a specific attack. They're just chaining them together to never have a vulnerable period at all, because there are too many /cds are too short. Which they have to be as a result of power creep that has made damage too high.

    First, it only applies to certain classes/builds. Second, you're exagerrating.

    Think for a second what would happen to, for example, necros after your proposed change.

    By reducing damage, we can then reduce iframe uptime. Instead of escalating the arms race, ie. Power creep, we can reduce it. This promotes skillful play and increases ttk

    The change to iframes/endurance is a much bigger defence nerf than the change you proposed to offense, This promotes fast bursting and decreases ttk. If you nerfed offense more, to compensate, then you'd increase value of builds that do not depend on dodging to survive. Remember first league season bunker auramancers and druids? They depended not on avoiding attacks, but on outhealing everything you could throw at them. Are you sure you want the return of such builds?

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invulnerability

    name one meta pve build that relies on these skills/traits.

    ...chronotank? A lot on dependence on evades, distortion and blocks. Decreasing iframes would make avoiding some boss attacks plain impossible.
    There's a lot of aegis use in general as well. From both chrono and guard.

    which pve builds use orrian meat and truffle, educate me.

    Condi mirage.

    it's not an exaggeration. top revs, mirage, holos, and sbs right now are literally untouchable for 15s at a time, and all have excellent disengage tools. they have this with glass damage builds. that is an awful design choice because it promotes a system where you don't choose when to use defensive cds, you just chain them together. in wvw its just as bad, you're either at full hp or completely down. it doesn't matter if you're on a tank build or not.

    if damage is reduced and iframes/endurance regen stays where it is we'll have another bunker meta. which is not a desirable outcome. by going after these instead of healing, we keep ttk low but don't reduce the amount of skilled play. it just forces some overperformers to use their defensive CDs at the right time instead of spamming them. The amulets needed for healing tanks to function aren't in spvp anymore, so nothing to worry about there.

    chronotank doesn't have any endurance regen traits. and distortion requires clones to use effectively for more than 1s anyways.

    you're right on condi mirage. how much of a damage loss is it to take a condi/duration food over orrian and meat truffle? do you think that amount of damage lost on one spec is enough to justify a food that literally breaks wvw roaming for every class?

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I think you are still making some incorrect correlations.

    How damage is calculated has nothing to do with high damage or burst. All variables can be manipulated. The fact that balance patches every X months do not reduce all damage across the board is indicative that developers intend damage to be this high. They CAN reduce damage significantly as seen post PoF launch where elite specializations were flirting with 60k dps and above, for a week.

    Now take into account the move against the bunker meta, thus not wanting to have super tanky builds live for ever in spvp, and you might have a culprit for your issues.

    TL;DR: if you want a more tanky spvp meta, make a case for it and against the anti-bunker approach currently in place. This has nothing to do with multipliers.

    So I guess looking for a balanced meta is out of the question? Because that's what I'd like to see. Some of the power creep toned down.

    The way to do so is by reducing burst and by reducing passive invulns. We can't reduce the invulns until damage is lowered.

    The most fair way to lower damage is changing the system from multiplicative to additive, as that affects each class the same way.

    Then shave a second off invulns, shave off 20% from all endurance regen traits.

    Voila, ttk is increased but the game retains its fast pace.

    No? If you take 20% away from endurance regens, you're shortening a fight by 20% in PvP. This would have the opposite effect of what you're trying to accomplish. Taking away iframes will mean that you're always going to be taking that damage, which will also lead to shorter fights, thus accomplishing the opposite of what you're claiming to aim for. I'm starting to feel deceived here.

    Endurance regeneration traits. Adrenal implant etc.

    This makes people use their defensive cds only when needed instead of chaining them together to never take a hit. It promotes skilled plays

    This also hurts bunkers, so we don't move back to a bunker meta.

    It's PvP, they're always needed. That's what the dodge tutorials teach you in every starter zone. How to dodge, and why you should do it. There seems to be some kind of secondary agenda here, and the more I read, the more I feel like someone dodged one of your one shot kill skills, and then, while you were raging about that, one shot killed you, and you had to come up with a reason, and so here we sit, discussing crit multipliers, and nerfing defensive skills and tactics "to make fights longer", despite the fact that it would have the opposite effect. Simple logic there.

    An example scenario: Your system cuts 1 second from iframe, and I use a skill that has a 1 second iframe to dodge your attack. For this example, you cannot crit, there are no crit modifiers, so it's all just base damage. What this does is make it so that instead of avoiding that one attack, I take full damage from it, negating the endurance I spent dodging your attack, and, with a lower regen, making it pointless to try to do so again. How is this going to make a fight last longer? The simple answer is that it's not going to. It's going to make all fights shorter, even ones that would naturally be longer in the current system. That's what happens when you nerf defenses, they are nullified, meaning that you may as well not have them, but this is supposed to improve PvP? For whom?

    You don't understand. People are not using dodges/invulns/defensive cds to avoid a specific attack. They're just chaining them together to never have a vulnerable period at all, because there are too many /cds are too short. Which they have to be as a result of power creep that has made damage too high.

    By reducing damage, we can then reduce iframe uptime. Instead of escalating the arms race, ie. Power creep, we can reduce it. This promotes skillful play and increases ttk

    Evidently you don't understand: there are mechanics in this game that require you to dodge outside of PvP, and they rely on that iframe to negate possible death. Reducing the iframe will not improve the game, it will lead to party wipes in group content where it wouldn't happen. Reducing the regen on endurance will not improve PvE play, it will instead also lead to party wipes that shouldn't have happened. Dungeon and fractal bosses aren't governed by the same rules. The base damage on their attacks is high, and it's high for a reason: It's supposed to be some of the harder content in the game. Decreasing player defenses because you don't like how some people play doesn't improve the game, it hurts it, all to assuage your ego.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invulnerability

    name one meta pve build that relies on these skills/traits.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Endurance

    how about these ones? which pve builds even run these traitlines and choose those traits over damage oriented traits? which pve builds use orrian meat and truffle, educate me.

    i love that you're bringing dungeons into it too, because those are really challenging pve content lmao

    https://snowcrows.com/

    staff daredevil takes staff mastery, and they take it for the damage increase. That's the only one.

    This was exactly what I was talking about. Tell me one class that doesn't have dodge?

    Tf are you talking about? They all do. Read above, where I repeatedly state endurance regen TRAITS. Which increase endurance regen, which allows too much sustain without investment into any defensive stats. Which are almost all used on every meta pvp/WvW build.

    Nerfing those will have 0 effect on pve. Absolutely no effect. Reducing them greatly reduces power creep in pvp/WvW. Which is the desired result!

    They all do, and you want to diminish the iframe. That you believe it has no effect does not make it true. The only thing you see is "but mah PvP", and everyone else is a sacrificial lamb for your objective. I'm shocked, shocked, I say, to find out that people playing PvP would have the audacity to slot traits that make them more proficient at it.

    Surely, if PvP were in as bad a state as you claim, there'd be dozens of threads flooding the forums. I've been around MMOs for nearly 30 years, and any time something is significantly broken, or perceived as such, the forums are awash with it. Why is that this is the only thread claiming that PvP builds make PvP imbalanced? Why, do you suppose, all the other players in PvP aren't jumping in here in support of your brilliant idea? Do you suppose it's because they don't think it's a problem, or is it that they don't find it to be a brilliant idea?

    check out snowcrows, or qt, or any other pve build website. none of the pve builds use those traits or skills. none of them. they are purely for pvp, and they are too strong. use the search function in the pvp section, there are complaints about them every single week going back years.

    speaking of the pvp section, how about taking a gander in there? the forum is flooded with threads about nerf x buff y because x is OP. thing is, it's always the same complaint, x does too much damage or has no vulnerable period.

    I'm going to assume it's because people who pvp don't visit the pve section. i'll post it over there though, lets see if it gets support?

    You mean the Rock, paper scissors meme threads? In almost 30 years of MMO gaming, I've seen them all. In an old Korean Grinder called Rappelz I used to play, you almost literally needed a canoe to navigate the PvP forums, and this was right at 20 years ago. It was really bad on the hardcore rules server, there you could drop your gear if you lost. I've watched "for balance" patches break PvE in more games than I care to mention, and it was really prominent in swtor, where some classes couldn't raid any more because of the nerfs. The bosses all had rage timers, and if you didn't beat the timer, it was a wipe, and the dps was cut so bad that these classes couldn't contribute. So let's not try to pretend I'm some nub fresh off the boat, ok? I understand what the PvP community is like, at least on the forums, across the industry. Any class that's being played well is OP according to PVPJonny, who believes he's the best player in the world.

    Here's a funny for you, I've had a poster try to tell me that PvPers were the only ones keeping the lights on in DDO, a game where the PvP is limited to bar room brawls and dueling zones. There might be 100 people across the whole game who PvP at all. They tried to pull one of these threads: Nerf everyone for PvP balance. Turbine, now Standing Stone Games told them to either PvP the way it is, or find a more PvPcentric game to play, because they weren't nerfing anything for PvP. It's 11 years old, and didn't require PvP to stay running. I hope they don't say anything too mean to you over there, although I expect you'll get a lot of "git gud" and "L2P".

    It's fun that you keep mentioning 30 years of MMO gaming when the first MMO came out in 1997, 21 years ago. not that it matters, since that entire paragraph has literally nothing to do with the topic. the damage modifiers are needed for pve, but are way too strong in pvp/wvw. which is why i'm suggesting they skill split modifiers to be twice as strong in pve. if anything, it's a gain in damage for pve modes.

    thread got closed, after 4 favorable responses. apparently you can't crosspost =/

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    This suggestion is a fallacy; you don't need to remove multipliers to fix the problems you are talking about. It doesn't even seem like a good way to do it, or if the things you think are problems actually are in the first place.

    The discussion is all very academic anyways. I mean, the OP convinced himself there is a problem, convinced himself removing the multipliers was the best approach to do it and wrapped the idea of a goal to achieve around it. It's tunnel vision.

    What makes you think it's not already easy enough to balance, or that Anet cares anyways? What makes you think the pace of the game is too great? These are YOUR visions for the game. Why do you think they are anyone elses?

    this doesn't remove any of the modifiers, just decreases how effective they are when stacked on one another. i'd like to think a multimillion dollar gaming company cares about retaining its players to keep the cash flow coming?

    The forum is littered with complaints about the power creep that has been building up. scroll through the pvp and wvw sections. I don't see anyone posting solutions, this is an effective solution. i haven't seen a single reason why it wouldn't work, it only targets the outliers that give the balance team a hard time every single patch.

    I understand what it does. The forum being littered with power creep doesn't actually mean it's a problem; in case you haven't noticed, forum dwellers like to sensationalize their 'problems' with the game, thinking it's an effective tactic to get the change they desire. You don't see any reason it wouldn't work is because you don't see the practical side of actually implementing it. Again, don't assume that this is somehow an outlier that the balance team has a hard time during patch and don't assume the balance team are a bunch of doofus that wouldn't come to the same conclusion you have ... IF it was true. We know Anet will change things if those things don't work for them ... and multipliers are no exception to that.

    The answer to your question of 'why not' change it is because clearly, whatever obstacle it poses to Anet, they deal with it and haven't concluded that there is any drastic actions needed to be done to change it to the level you are suggesting. Not yet anyways. Personally, I don't see an issue with multipliers. They aren't excessive and they don't pose some massive threat to how the game works, EVEN in PVP. If anything, the counterplay to high damage burst multiplier is similar high damage burst mitigation; your suggestion isn't the only solution to whatever problem you envision.

    if the majority of the posts are about how power creep is out of hand, then obviously there's a problem with player perception. since the game caters to the market of player satisfaction, the only metric that matters is if people are enjoying themselves. Clearly, they are not.

    The issue is that damage is too high in pvp/wvw, and just right in pve. There needs to be a way to address it for both game modes, preferably while making future balance patches less able to cause the same problem. additive modifiers are easier to balance, lower damage in pvp/wvw settings, and doubling them for pve with skill splits leaves pve damage as is or better.

    There really isn't a way to know what's going on with the balance team because they never communicate with the playerbase. Going by the number of broken interactions that come up after every balance patch, it's safe to assume they either don't know or don't test their patches before releasing them. Because controlling outliers is very difficult. This brings every outlier for every build back into line. You pretty clearly don't play pvp at a competitive level.

    There are nowhere near as many - damage % modifiers as + damage % modifers. I'm not stating this is the ONLY solution, only that it is A viable solution. Since you have nothing to offer up as a solution that actually addresses the problem, why are you even arguing? It isn't constructive.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    check out snowcrows, or qt, or any other pve build website. none of the pve builds use those traits or skills. none of them.

    You do remember you asked for iframes to be reduced, a change that hits every build regardless of traits used? That change alone would make some very negative consequences fo boss tanking in raid format. Chrono tanking capability practically depends on having a ton of those.

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    it's not an exaggeration. top revs, mirage, holos, and sbs right now are literally untouchable for 15s at a time

    15s at a time is not the same as "no vulnerable period at all". Since the beginning of the game, there haven't been even a single build capable of the latter. Granted, a few did come close before they got nerfed, but it doesn't make your claim any less of an exagerration.

    if damage is reduced and iframes/endurance regen stays where it is we'll have another bunker meta. which is not a desirable outcome. by going after these instead of healing, we keep ttk low but don't reduce the amount of skilled play. it just forces some overperformers to use their defensive CDs at the right time instead of spamming them. The amulets needed for healing tanks to function aren't in spvp anymore, so nothing to worry about there.

    They are present in wvw however, if you haven't forgotten.

    chronotank doesn't have any endurance regen traits. and distortion requires clones to use effectively for more than 1s anyways.

    sword 2 and 4, shield 4, precog, disto on signets, aegis share...
    You obviously have absolutely no idea of the build and how it is played.

    check out snowcrows, or qt, or any other pve build website. none of the pve builds use those traits or skills. none of them.

    See the chronotank mention above.

    use the search function in the pvp section, there are complaints about them every single week going back years.

    I do remember massive complains about rangers too in the first years in spvp, at the time they were at their weakest and mostly considered a joke by anyone with even a bit of skill.
    In pvp forums there are complains about every single class being ridiculously op. At the same time there are also complains about every single class being ridiculously underpowered.
    Just the amount of posts alone is not an argument in this case, unless they consistently are about the very same skill/trait/class. But even then some better arguments would be required than just that.

    speaking of the pvp section, how about taking a gander in there? the forum is flooded with threads about nerf x buff y because x is OP. thing is, it's always the same complaint, x does too much damage or has no vulnerable period.

    The classes it's being aimed at (and the classes that should be buffed) do change with every post, though.

    If you have a problem with some classes and skills being too strong in competitive formats, ask for a balance pass on those classes, skills and traits. Do not ask for a general nerf to everything, including things you obviously have no understanding of.
    And please, do get yourself some solid arguments first, instead of relying on exagerrations and panic-mongering.

    if you scroll up, i even linked the page for all of the iframes that need addressed. here it is again for you: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invulnerability
    distortion is the only one used in a pve setting. since it requires clones to apply for more than 1s, which has counterplay- kill the clones, it isn't up for the nerf bat. Chronotanks aren't viable in pvp because they have no offensive pressure, which is why no one plays them. The issue is with classes that can run full glass builds and be untouchable for too long a period of time.

    15s at a time is essentially the same thing. show up on point, drop everything while taking no hits, disengage if it doesn't end the fight. all of the meta classes have this capability, all of them are focused around running the same setup, high damage with high iframe uptime. best way to decrease it is to reduce the amount of endurance regen all of the outliers have while decreasing their maximum burst potential.

    by changing how damage modifiers are calculated, it brings in all of the outliers at the same time and makes future balance easier on the dev team. There's no reason a pve raid build should do as much damage in pvp against players with 1/100th the hp without losing any of their defenses. All that does is make for a toxic game mode that doesn't attract new players.

    saying these are unfounded arguments doesn't make them unfounded arguments, there's plenty of evidence that the players are sick of power creep. If you don't have anything to add to the solution, you don't really have an opinion that matters.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2018

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    if the majority of the posts are about how power creep is out of hand, then obviously there's a problem with player perception.

    Sure. With perception. Not necessarily with skill balance however.
    Remember, for a poor player any class their more skilled opponents are running may seem to be OP.

    since the game caters to the market of player satisfaction, the only metric that matters is if people are enjoying themselves. Clearly, they are not.

    Because they aren't winning. Too bad, that in PvP format, for one player to win, another needs to lose.

    if you scroll up, i even linked the page for all of the iframes that need addressed.

    So, you mean only those skills are a problem, and not aegis, blocks, evades. Duly noted (but see below).

    15s at a time is essentially the same thing. show up on point, drop everything while taking no hits, disengage if it doesn't end the fight. all of the meta classes have this capability, all of them are focused around running the same setup, high damage with high iframe uptime.

    Okay, please list at least one build per each class capable of it, while using only defensive skills on the list you mentioned above (because apparently only those you consider a problem). If you can't, again stop exagerrating.
    Okay, i will give you a leeway, and allow defensive skills from outside your list.

    by changing how damage modifiers are calculated, it brings in all of the outliers at the same time and makes future balance easier on the dev team. There's no reason a pve raid build should do as much damage in pvp against players with 1/100th the hp without losing any of their defenses.

    There's a very good reason for that: raid dps builds generally run no defenses beyond dodges and basic class abilities (like guardian's f3), unless those defences can be utilized offensively, or they simply can't be meaningfully replaced by anything helping damage. Thus, they have no defences to lose.

    saying these are unfounded arguments doesn't make them unfounded arguments

    Indeed, your arguments aren't unfounded because i say so. They are so because you didn't really bring anything solid to prove your point.

    there's plenty of evidence that the players are sick of power creep.

    Yes, some players are definitely sick of power creep. That alone however doesn't mean said power creep exists, or is as bad as you claim it is. It's not a solid argument in any serious discussion - definitely not something you can base your point on.

    If you don't have anything to add to the solution, you don't really have an opinion that matters.

    Before we start thinking about solutions, you need to prove first that a problem exists, and a solution is needed. You haven't yet done so.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    You don't understand. People are not using dodges/invulns/defensive cds to avoid a specific attack. They're just chaining them together to never have a vulnerable period at all, because there are too many /cds are too short. Which they have to be as a result of power creep that has made damage too high.

    First, it only applies to certain classes/builds. Second, you're exagerrating.

    Think for a second what would happen to, for example, necros after your proposed change.

    By reducing damage, we can then reduce iframe uptime. Instead of escalating the arms race, ie. Power creep, we can reduce it. This promotes skillful play and increases ttk

    The change to iframes/endurance is a much bigger defence nerf than the change you proposed to offense, This promotes fast bursting and decreases ttk. If you nerfed offense more, to compensate, then you'd increase value of builds that do not depend on dodging to survive. Remember first league season bunker auramancers and druids? They depended not on avoiding attacks, but on outhealing everything you could throw at them. Are you sure you want the return of such builds?

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invulnerability

    name one meta pve build that relies on these skills/traits.

    ...chronotank? A lot on dependence on evades, distortion and blocks. Decreasing iframes would make avoiding some boss attacks plain impossible.
    There's a lot of aegis use in general as well. From both chrono and guard.

    which pve builds use orrian meat and truffle, educate me.

    Condi mirage.

    it's not an exaggeration. top revs, mirage, holos, and sbs right now are literally untouchable for 15s at a time, and all have excellent disengage tools. they have this with glass damage builds. that is an awful design choice because it promotes a system where you don't choose when to use defensive cds, you just chain them together. in wvw its just as bad, you're either at full hp or completely down. it doesn't matter if you're on a tank build or not.

    if damage is reduced and iframes/endurance regen stays where it is we'll have another bunker meta. which is not a desirable outcome. by going after these instead of healing, we keep ttk low but don't reduce the amount of skilled play. it just forces some overperformers to use their defensive CDs at the right time instead of spamming them. The amulets needed for healing tanks to function aren't in spvp anymore, so nothing to worry about there.

    chronotank doesn't have any endurance regen traits. and distortion requires clones to use effectively for more than 1s anyways.

    you're right on condi mirage. how much of a damage loss is it to take a condi/duration food over orrian and meat truffle? do you think that amount of damage lost on one spec is enough to justify a food that literally breaks wvw roaming for every class?

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I think you are still making some incorrect correlations.

    How damage is calculated has nothing to do with high damage or burst. All variables can be manipulated. The fact that balance patches every X months do not reduce all damage across the board is indicative that developers intend damage to be this high. They CAN reduce damage significantly as seen post PoF launch where elite specializations were flirting with 60k dps and above, for a week.

    Now take into account the move against the bunker meta, thus not wanting to have super tanky builds live for ever in spvp, and you might have a culprit for your issues.

    TL;DR: if you want a more tanky spvp meta, make a case for it and against the anti-bunker approach currently in place. This has nothing to do with multipliers.

    So I guess looking for a balanced meta is out of the question? Because that's what I'd like to see. Some of the power creep toned down.

    The way to do so is by reducing burst and by reducing passive invulns. We can't reduce the invulns until damage is lowered.

    The most fair way to lower damage is changing the system from multiplicative to additive, as that affects each class the same way.

    Then shave a second off invulns, shave off 20% from all endurance regen traits.

    Voila, ttk is increased but the game retains its fast pace.

    No? If you take 20% away from endurance regens, you're shortening a fight by 20% in PvP. This would have the opposite effect of what you're trying to accomplish. Taking away iframes will mean that you're always going to be taking that damage, which will also lead to shorter fights, thus accomplishing the opposite of what you're claiming to aim for. I'm starting to feel deceived here.

    Endurance regeneration traits. Adrenal implant etc.

    This makes people use their defensive cds only when needed instead of chaining them together to never take a hit. It promotes skilled plays

    This also hurts bunkers, so we don't move back to a bunker meta.

    It's PvP, they're always needed. That's what the dodge tutorials teach you in every starter zone. How to dodge, and why you should do it. There seems to be some kind of secondary agenda here, and the more I read, the more I feel like someone dodged one of your one shot kill skills, and then, while you were raging about that, one shot killed you, and you had to come up with a reason, and so here we sit, discussing crit multipliers, and nerfing defensive skills and tactics "to make fights longer", despite the fact that it would have the opposite effect. Simple logic there.

    An example scenario: Your system cuts 1 second from iframe, and I use a skill that has a 1 second iframe to dodge your attack. For this example, you cannot crit, there are no crit modifiers, so it's all just base damage. What this does is make it so that instead of avoiding that one attack, I take full damage from it, negating the endurance I spent dodging your attack, and, with a lower regen, making it pointless to try to do so again. How is this going to make a fight last longer? The simple answer is that it's not going to. It's going to make all fights shorter, even ones that would naturally be longer in the current system. That's what happens when you nerf defenses, they are nullified, meaning that you may as well not have them, but this is supposed to improve PvP? For whom?

    You don't understand. People are not using dodges/invulns/defensive cds to avoid a specific attack. They're just chaining them together to never have a vulnerable period at all, because there are too many /cds are too short. Which they have to be as a result of power creep that has made damage too high.

    By reducing damage, we can then reduce iframe uptime. Instead of escalating the arms race, ie. Power creep, we can reduce it. This promotes skillful play and increases ttk

    Evidently you don't understand: there are mechanics in this game that require you to dodge outside of PvP, and they rely on that iframe to negate possible death. Reducing the iframe will not improve the game, it will lead to party wipes in group content where it wouldn't happen. Reducing the regen on endurance will not improve PvE play, it will instead also lead to party wipes that shouldn't have happened. Dungeon and fractal bosses aren't governed by the same rules. The base damage on their attacks is high, and it's high for a reason: It's supposed to be some of the harder content in the game. Decreasing player defenses because you don't like how some people play doesn't improve the game, it hurts it, all to assuage your ego.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invulnerability

    name one meta pve build that relies on these skills/traits.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Endurance

    how about these ones? which pve builds even run these traitlines and choose those traits over damage oriented traits? which pve builds use orrian meat and truffle, educate me.

    i love that you're bringing dungeons into it too, because those are really challenging pve content lmao

    https://snowcrows.com/

    staff daredevil takes staff mastery, and they take it for the damage increase. That's the only one.

    This was exactly what I was talking about. Tell me one class that doesn't have dodge?

    Tf are you talking about? They all do. Read above, where I repeatedly state endurance regen TRAITS. Which increase endurance regen, which allows too much sustain without investment into any defensive stats. Which are almost all used on every meta pvp/WvW build.

    Nerfing those will have 0 effect on pve. Absolutely no effect. Reducing them greatly reduces power creep in pvp/WvW. Which is the desired result!

    They all do, and you want to diminish the iframe. That you believe it has no effect does not make it true. The only thing you see is "but mah PvP", and everyone else is a sacrificial lamb for your objective. I'm shocked, shocked, I say, to find out that people playing PvP would have the audacity to slot traits that make them more proficient at it.

    Surely, if PvP were in as bad a state as you claim, there'd be dozens of threads flooding the forums. I've been around MMOs for nearly 30 years, and any time something is significantly broken, or perceived as such, the forums are awash with it. Why is that this is the only thread claiming that PvP builds make PvP imbalanced? Why, do you suppose, all the other players in PvP aren't jumping in here in support of your brilliant idea? Do you suppose it's because they don't think it's a problem, or is it that they don't find it to be a brilliant idea?

    check out snowcrows, or qt, or any other pve build website. none of the pve builds use those traits or skills. none of them. they are purely for pvp, and they are too strong. use the search function in the pvp section, there are complaints about them every single week going back years.

    speaking of the pvp section, how about taking a gander in there? the forum is flooded with threads about nerf x buff y because x is OP. thing is, it's always the same complaint, x does too much damage or has no vulnerable period.

    I'm going to assume it's because people who pvp don't visit the pve section. i'll post it over there though, lets see if it gets support?

    You mean the Rock, paper scissors meme threads? In almost 30 years of MMO gaming, I've seen them all. In an old Korean Grinder called Rappelz I used to play, you almost literally needed a canoe to navigate the PvP forums, and this was right at 20 years ago. It was really bad on the hardcore rules server, there you could drop your gear if you lost. I've watched "for balance" patches break PvE in more games than I care to mention, and it was really prominent in swtor, where some classes couldn't raid any more because of the nerfs. The bosses all had rage timers, and if you didn't beat the timer, it was a wipe, and the dps was cut so bad that these classes couldn't contribute. So let's not try to pretend I'm some nub fresh off the boat, ok? I understand what the PvP community is like, at least on the forums, across the industry. Any class that's being played well is OP according to PVPJonny, who believes he's the best player in the world.

    Here's a funny for you, I've had a poster try to tell me that PvPers were the only ones keeping the lights on in DDO, a game where the PvP is limited to bar room brawls and dueling zones. There might be 100 people across the whole game who PvP at all. They tried to pull one of these threads: Nerf everyone for PvP balance. Turbine, now Standing Stone Games told them to either PvP the way it is, or find a more PvPcentric game to play, because they weren't nerfing anything for PvP. It's 11 years old, and didn't require PvP to stay running. I hope they don't say anything too mean to you over there, although I expect you'll get a lot of "git gud" and "L2P".

    It's fun that you keep mentioning 30 years of MMO gaming when the first MMO came out in 1997, 21 years ago. not that it matters, since that entire paragraph has literally nothing to do with the topic. the damage modifiers are needed for pve, but are way too strong in pvp/wvw. which is why i'm suggesting they skill split modifiers to be twice as strong in pve. if anything, it's a gain in damage for pve modes.

    http://iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/Spring05/Hill/mmorpg.html

    Funny, so far not only every bit of math you did in this thread needed some one correcting you on. You didn't even manage to properly Google search the first MMO (which released in 96).

    So tell us, how serious are we supposed to take you at this point?

    The problem of being so "right" while being so wrong is that people will call you out on it.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2018

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    if the majority of the posts are about how power creep is out of hand, then obviously there's a problem with player perception. since the game caters to the market of player satisfaction, the only metric that matters is if people are enjoying themselves. Clearly, they are not.

    The majority of posts is not the same thing as the majority of the players, so don't correlate player satisfaction and game health to it; it makes little sense to do so. Besides, if it's a problem with player perception, then Anet doesn't need to change the game to fix that.

    Again, this isn't about power creep being a problem; it's about you claiming that removing multipliers fixes it. You've missed a few logical steps in between and that's part of my problem with your idea. I think very few people here believe that this is THE fix to address the problems you are mentioning, or even think the problems you have mentioned are even worth so much attention. That's partially why you are getting lots of negative feedback.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    if the majority of the posts are about how power creep is out of hand, then obviously there's a problem with player perception.

    Sure. With perception. Not necessarily with skill balance however.
    Remember, for a poor player any class their more skilled opponents are running may seem to be OP.

    since the game caters to the market of player satisfaction, the only metric that matters is if people are enjoying themselves. Clearly, they are not.

    Because they aren't winning. Too bad, that in PvP format, for one player to win, another needs to lose.

    if you scroll up, i even linked the page for all of the iframes that need addressed.

    So, you mean only those skills are a problem, and not aegis, blocks, evades. Duly noted (but see below).

    15s at a time is essentially the same thing. show up on point, drop everything while taking no hits, disengage if it doesn't end the fight. all of the meta classes have this capability, all of them are focused around running the same setup, high damage with high iframe uptime.

    Okay, please list at least one build per each class capable of it, while using only defensive skills on the list you mentioned above (because apparently only those you consider a problem). If you can't, again stop exagerrating.
    Okay, i will give you a leeway, and allow defensive skills from outside your list.

    by changing how damage modifiers are calculated, it brings in all of the outliers at the same time and makes future balance easier on the dev team. There's no reason a pve raid build should do as much damage in pvp against players with 1/100th the hp without losing any of their defenses.

    There's a very good reason for that: raid dps builds generally run no defenses beyond dodges and basic class abilities (like guardian's f3), unless those defences can be utilized offensively, or they simply can't be meaningfully replaced by anything helping damage. Thus, they have no defences to lose.

    saying these are unfounded arguments doesn't make them unfounded arguments

    Indeed, your arguments aren't unfounded because i say so. They are so because you didn't really bring anything solid to prove your point.

    there's plenty of evidence that the players are sick of power creep.

    Yes, some players are definitely sick of power creep. That alone however doesn't mean said power creep exists, or is as bad as you claim it is. It's not a solid argument in any serious discussion - definitely not something you can base your point on.

    If you don't have anything to add to the solution, you don't really have an opinion that matters.

    Before we start thinking about solutions, you need to prove first that a problem exists, and a solution is needed. You haven't yet done so.

    how nitpicky do you need to get really? should i post the exact defensive rotation of every single meta class? after that, are you going to require the build, maybe a step by step walk through in how to play them? will that also not be enough, you require video evidence of me using each and every meta profession? What exactly do you consider definitive proof, before i spend my time on it?

    remember, the forums are the best place to be for someone who can't compete in any game mode.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    You don't understand. People are not using dodges/invulns/defensive cds to avoid a specific attack. They're just chaining them together to never have a vulnerable period at all, because there are too many /cds are too short. Which they have to be as a result of power creep that has made damage too high.

    First, it only applies to certain classes/builds. Second, you're exagerrating.

    Think for a second what would happen to, for example, necros after your proposed change.

    By reducing damage, we can then reduce iframe uptime. Instead of escalating the arms race, ie. Power creep, we can reduce it. This promotes skillful play and increases ttk

    The change to iframes/endurance is a much bigger defence nerf than the change you proposed to offense, This promotes fast bursting and decreases ttk. If you nerfed offense more, to compensate, then you'd increase value of builds that do not depend on dodging to survive. Remember first league season bunker auramancers and druids? They depended not on avoiding attacks, but on outhealing everything you could throw at them. Are you sure you want the return of such builds?

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invulnerability

    name one meta pve build that relies on these skills/traits.

    ...chronotank? A lot on dependence on evades, distortion and blocks. Decreasing iframes would make avoiding some boss attacks plain impossible.
    There's a lot of aegis use in general as well. From both chrono and guard.

    which pve builds use orrian meat and truffle, educate me.

    Condi mirage.

    it's not an exaggeration. top revs, mirage, holos, and sbs right now are literally untouchable for 15s at a time, and all have excellent disengage tools. they have this with glass damage builds. that is an awful design choice because it promotes a system where you don't choose when to use defensive cds, you just chain them together. in wvw its just as bad, you're either at full hp or completely down. it doesn't matter if you're on a tank build or not.

    if damage is reduced and iframes/endurance regen stays where it is we'll have another bunker meta. which is not a desirable outcome. by going after these instead of healing, we keep ttk low but don't reduce the amount of skilled play. it just forces some overperformers to use their defensive CDs at the right time instead of spamming them. The amulets needed for healing tanks to function aren't in spvp anymore, so nothing to worry about there.

    chronotank doesn't have any endurance regen traits. and distortion requires clones to use effectively for more than 1s anyways.

    you're right on condi mirage. how much of a damage loss is it to take a condi/duration food over orrian and meat truffle? do you think that amount of damage lost on one spec is enough to justify a food that literally breaks wvw roaming for every class?

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I think you are still making some incorrect correlations.

    How damage is calculated has nothing to do with high damage or burst. All variables can be manipulated. The fact that balance patches every X months do not reduce all damage across the board is indicative that developers intend damage to be this high. They CAN reduce damage significantly as seen post PoF launch where elite specializations were flirting with 60k dps and above, for a week.

    Now take into account the move against the bunker meta, thus not wanting to have super tanky builds live for ever in spvp, and you might have a culprit for your issues.

    TL;DR: if you want a more tanky spvp meta, make a case for it and against the anti-bunker approach currently in place. This has nothing to do with multipliers.

    So I guess looking for a balanced meta is out of the question? Because that's what I'd like to see. Some of the power creep toned down.

    The way to do so is by reducing burst and by reducing passive invulns. We can't reduce the invulns until damage is lowered.

    The most fair way to lower damage is changing the system from multiplicative to additive, as that affects each class the same way.

    Then shave a second off invulns, shave off 20% from all endurance regen traits.

    Voila, ttk is increased but the game retains its fast pace.

    No? If you take 20% away from endurance regens, you're shortening a fight by 20% in PvP. This would have the opposite effect of what you're trying to accomplish. Taking away iframes will mean that you're always going to be taking that damage, which will also lead to shorter fights, thus accomplishing the opposite of what you're claiming to aim for. I'm starting to feel deceived here.

    Endurance regeneration traits. Adrenal implant etc.

    This makes people use their defensive cds only when needed instead of chaining them together to never take a hit. It promotes skilled plays

    This also hurts bunkers, so we don't move back to a bunker meta.

    It's PvP, they're always needed. That's what the dodge tutorials teach you in every starter zone. How to dodge, and why you should do it. There seems to be some kind of secondary agenda here, and the more I read, the more I feel like someone dodged one of your one shot kill skills, and then, while you were raging about that, one shot killed you, and you had to come up with a reason, and so here we sit, discussing crit multipliers, and nerfing defensive skills and tactics "to make fights longer", despite the fact that it would have the opposite effect. Simple logic there.

    An example scenario: Your system cuts 1 second from iframe, and I use a skill that has a 1 second iframe to dodge your attack. For this example, you cannot crit, there are no crit modifiers, so it's all just base damage. What this does is make it so that instead of avoiding that one attack, I take full damage from it, negating the endurance I spent dodging your attack, and, with a lower regen, making it pointless to try to do so again. How is this going to make a fight last longer? The simple answer is that it's not going to. It's going to make all fights shorter, even ones that would naturally be longer in the current system. That's what happens when you nerf defenses, they are nullified, meaning that you may as well not have them, but this is supposed to improve PvP? For whom?

    You don't understand. People are not using dodges/invulns/defensive cds to avoid a specific attack. They're just chaining them together to never have a vulnerable period at all, because there are too many /cds are too short. Which they have to be as a result of power creep that has made damage too high.

    By reducing damage, we can then reduce iframe uptime. Instead of escalating the arms race, ie. Power creep, we can reduce it. This promotes skillful play and increases ttk

    Evidently you don't understand: there are mechanics in this game that require you to dodge outside of PvP, and they rely on that iframe to negate possible death. Reducing the iframe will not improve the game, it will lead to party wipes in group content where it wouldn't happen. Reducing the regen on endurance will not improve PvE play, it will instead also lead to party wipes that shouldn't have happened. Dungeon and fractal bosses aren't governed by the same rules. The base damage on their attacks is high, and it's high for a reason: It's supposed to be some of the harder content in the game. Decreasing player defenses because you don't like how some people play doesn't improve the game, it hurts it, all to assuage your ego.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invulnerability

    name one meta pve build that relies on these skills/traits.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Endurance

    how about these ones? which pve builds even run these traitlines and choose those traits over damage oriented traits? which pve builds use orrian meat and truffle, educate me.

    i love that you're bringing dungeons into it too, because those are really challenging pve content lmao

    https://snowcrows.com/

    staff daredevil takes staff mastery, and they take it for the damage increase. That's the only one.

    This was exactly what I was talking about. Tell me one class that doesn't have dodge?

    Tf are you talking about? They all do. Read above, where I repeatedly state endurance regen TRAITS. Which increase endurance regen, which allows too much sustain without investment into any defensive stats. Which are almost all used on every meta pvp/WvW build.

    Nerfing those will have 0 effect on pve. Absolutely no effect. Reducing them greatly reduces power creep in pvp/WvW. Which is the desired result!

    They all do, and you want to diminish the iframe. That you believe it has no effect does not make it true. The only thing you see is "but mah PvP", and everyone else is a sacrificial lamb for your objective. I'm shocked, shocked, I say, to find out that people playing PvP would have the audacity to slot traits that make them more proficient at it.

    Surely, if PvP were in as bad a state as you claim, there'd be dozens of threads flooding the forums. I've been around MMOs for nearly 30 years, and any time something is significantly broken, or perceived as such, the forums are awash with it. Why is that this is the only thread claiming that PvP builds make PvP imbalanced? Why, do you suppose, all the other players in PvP aren't jumping in here in support of your brilliant idea? Do you suppose it's because they don't think it's a problem, or is it that they don't find it to be a brilliant idea?

    check out snowcrows, or qt, or any other pve build website. none of the pve builds use those traits or skills. none of them. they are purely for pvp, and they are too strong. use the search function in the pvp section, there are complaints about them every single week going back years.

    speaking of the pvp section, how about taking a gander in there? the forum is flooded with threads about nerf x buff y because x is OP. thing is, it's always the same complaint, x does too much damage or has no vulnerable period.

    I'm going to assume it's because people who pvp don't visit the pve section. i'll post it over there though, lets see if it gets support?

    You mean the Rock, paper scissors meme threads? In almost 30 years of MMO gaming, I've seen them all. In an old Korean Grinder called Rappelz I used to play, you almost literally needed a canoe to navigate the PvP forums, and this was right at 20 years ago. It was really bad on the hardcore rules server, there you could drop your gear if you lost. I've watched "for balance" patches break PvE in more games than I care to mention, and it was really prominent in swtor, where some classes couldn't raid any more because of the nerfs. The bosses all had rage timers, and if you didn't beat the timer, it was a wipe, and the dps was cut so bad that these classes couldn't contribute. So let's not try to pretend I'm some nub fresh off the boat, ok? I understand what the PvP community is like, at least on the forums, across the industry. Any class that's being played well is OP according to PVPJonny, who believes he's the best player in the world.

    Here's a funny for you, I've had a poster try to tell me that PvPers were the only ones keeping the lights on in DDO, a game where the PvP is limited to bar room brawls and dueling zones. There might be 100 people across the whole game who PvP at all. They tried to pull one of these threads: Nerf everyone for PvP balance. Turbine, now Standing Stone Games told them to either PvP the way it is, or find a more PvPcentric game to play, because they weren't nerfing anything for PvP. It's 11 years old, and didn't require PvP to stay running. I hope they don't say anything too mean to you over there, although I expect you'll get a lot of "git gud" and "L2P".

    It's fun that you keep mentioning 30 years of MMO gaming when the first MMO came out in 1997, 21 years ago. not that it matters, since that entire paragraph has literally nothing to do with the topic. the damage modifiers are needed for pve, but are way too strong in pvp/wvw. which is why i'm suggesting they skill split modifiers to be twice as strong in pve. if anything, it's a gain in damage for pve modes.

    http://iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/Spring05/Hill/mmorpg.html

    Funny, so far not only every bit of math you did in this thread needed some one correcting you on. You didn't even manage to properly Google search the first MMO (which released in 96).

    So tell us, how serious are we supposed to take you at this point?

    The problem of being so "right" while being so wrong is that people will call you out on it.

    kitten, you sure got me there. 21 years ago vs 22 years ago, both of which are under 30 years ago. Really nice choice of website too, very reputable source that 'believes' the first mmo came around in 96.

    funny that you don't actually have any arguments against the idea of this thread, but don't like change and would rather argue on a forum then actually provide a solution.

    what's next, going to check for spelling errors to show my idea is flawed? It's leviOsa, not leviosA genius!

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    if the majority of the posts are about how power creep is out of hand, then obviously there's a problem with player perception. since the game caters to the market of player satisfaction, the only metric that matters is if people are enjoying themselves. Clearly, they are not.

    The majority of posts is not the same thing as the majority of the players, so don't correlate player satisfaction and game health to it; it makes little sense to do so. Besides, if it's a problem with player perception, then Anet doesn't need to change the game to fix that.

    Again, this isn't about power creep being a problem; it's about you claiming that removing multipliers fixes it. You've missed a few logical steps in between and that's part of my problem with your idea. I think very few people here believe that this is THE fix to address the problems you are mentioning, or even think the problems you have mentioned are even worth so much attention. That's partially why you are getting lots of negative feedback.

    since player perception is what pays their paychecks, might be worth checking into right? add more damage, add more defense, repeat. eventually you reach a point where the game is no longer accessible to new players and is straight out frustrating for old ones. That's the point we're at right now, and the solution is to decrease both damage and defense. i still haven't seen a suggestion from you on how to do so. Until then...?

    the negative feedback i'm getting is because splitting hairs is easier than brainstorming solutions, your post history shows plenty of the former with absolutely none of the latter.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2018

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    since player perception is what pays their paychecks, might be worth checking into right? add more damage, add more defense, repeat. eventually you reach a point where the game is no longer accessible to new players and is straight out frustrating for old ones. That's the point we're at right now, and the solution is to decrease both damage and defense. i still haven't seen a suggestion from you on how to do so. Until then...?

    the negative feedback i'm getting is because splitting hairs is easier than brainstorming solutions, your post history shows plenty of the former with absolutely none of the latter.

    You haven't got a suggestion from me how to do it for lots of reasons; the primary one being that it would validate something I don't think is true. No, I don't think we are the point where the solution is to decrease damage and defense; the 'pace' of this game is actually pretty typical for MMO's, so I don't see a problem with the amount of damage/defense we are seeing. This is one area where I don't think Anet should experiment with; the 'pace' at which you flow through an MMO, determined by the things you do in it, is on point. It's not a chess match, but it's not twitch meth addict level either.

    Appealing to the collapse of the game by not addressing this issue is sensationalism; the pace of the game is very typical, and has been since it's release. I can only think that however we characterize the pace, it's the pace that the people that play this game like. As much as you claim the pace has changed for the worse, it really hasn't; there isn't some explosion of damage multipliers part way through the history of the game. If it was to change by an order of magnitude either way, you might have a point. It hasn't done that. It would shed players if that was the case, from either being too boring for them, or too fast. The pace of the game isn't a problem.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    remember, the forums are the best place to be for someone who can't compete in any game mode.

    Serious snip job: this explains a lot, doesn't it?

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2018

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I think you are still making some incorrect correlations.

    How damage is calculated has nothing to do with high damage or burst. All variables can be manipulated. The fact that balance patches every X months do not reduce all damage across the board is indicative that developers intend damage to be this high. They CAN reduce damage significantly as seen post PoF launch where elite specializations were flirting with 60k dps and above, for a week.

    Now take into account the move against the bunker meta, thus not wanting to have super tanky builds live for ever in spvp, and you might have a culprit for your issues.

    TL;DR: if you want a more tanky spvp meta, make a case for it and against the anti-bunker approach currently in place. This has nothing to do with multipliers.

    So I guess looking for a balanced meta is out of the question? Because that's what I'd like to see. Some of the power creep toned down.

    The way to do so is by reducing burst and by reducing passive invulns. We can't reduce the invulns until damage is lowered.

    The most fair way to lower damage is changing the system from multiplicative to additive, as that affects each class the same way.

    Then shave a second off invulns, shave off 20% from all endurance regen traits.

    Voila, ttk is increased but the game retains its fast pace.

    No? If you take 20% away from endurance regens, you're shortening a fight by 20% in PvP. This would have the opposite effect of what you're trying to accomplish. Taking away iframes will mean that you're always going to be taking that damage, which will also lead to shorter fights, thus accomplishing the opposite of what you're claiming to aim for. I'm starting to feel deceived here.

    Endurance regeneration traits. Adrenal implant etc.

    This makes people use their defensive cds only when needed instead of chaining them together to never take a hit. It promotes skilled plays

    This also hurts bunkers, so we don't move back to a bunker meta.

    It's PvP, they're always needed. That's what the dodge tutorials teach you in every starter zone. How to dodge, and why you should do it. There seems to be some kind of secondary agenda here, and the more I read, the more I feel like someone dodged one of your one shot kill skills, and then, while you were raging about that, one shot killed you, and you had to come up with a reason, and so here we sit, discussing crit multipliers, and nerfing defensive skills and tactics "to make fights longer", despite the fact that it would have the opposite effect. Simple logic there.

    An example scenario: Your system cuts 1 second from iframe, and I use a skill that has a 1 second iframe to dodge your attack. For this example, you cannot crit, there are no crit modifiers, so it's all just base damage. What this does is make it so that instead of avoiding that one attack, I take full damage from it, negating the endurance I spent dodging your attack, and, with a lower regen, making it pointless to try to do so again. How is this going to make a fight last longer? The simple answer is that it's not going to. It's going to make all fights shorter, even ones that would naturally be longer in the current system. That's what happens when you nerf defenses, they are nullified, meaning that you may as well not have them, but this is supposed to improve PvP? For whom?

    You don't understand. People are not using dodges/invulns/defensive cds to avoid a specific attack. They're just chaining them together to never have a vulnerable period at all, because there are too many /cds are too short. Which they have to be as a result of power creep that has made damage too high.

    By reducing damage, we can then reduce iframe uptime. Instead of escalating the arms race, ie. Power creep, we can reduce it. This promotes skillful play and increases ttk

    Evidently you don't understand: there are mechanics in this game that require you to dodge outside of PvP, and they rely on that iframe to negate possible death. Reducing the iframe will not improve the game, it will lead to party wipes in group content where it wouldn't happen. Reducing the regen on endurance will not improve PvE play, it will instead also lead to party wipes that shouldn't have happened. Dungeon and fractal bosses aren't governed by the same rules. The base damage on their attacks is high, and it's high for a reason: It's supposed to be some of the harder content in the game. Decreasing player defenses because you don't like how some people play doesn't improve the game, it hurts it, all to assuage your ego.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invulnerability

    name one meta pve build that relies on these skills/traits.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Endurance

    how about these ones? which pve builds even run these traitlines and choose those traits over damage oriented traits? which pve builds use orrian meat and truffle, educate me.

    i love that you're bringing dungeons into it too, because those are really challenging pve content lmao

    https://snowcrows.com/

    staff daredevil takes staff mastery, and they take it for the damage increase. That's the only one.

    This was exactly what I was talking about. Tell me one class that doesn't have dodge?

    Tf are you talking about? They all do. Read above, where I repeatedly state endurance regen TRAITS. Which increase endurance regen, which allows too much sustain without investment into any defensive stats. Which are almost all used on every meta pvp/WvW build.

    Nerfing those will have 0 effect on pve. Absolutely no effect. Reducing them greatly reduces power creep in pvp/WvW. Which is the desired result!

    They all do, and you want to diminish the iframe. That you believe it has no effect does not make it true. The only thing you see is "but mah PvP", and everyone else is a sacrificial lamb for your objective. I'm shocked, shocked, I say, to find out that people playing PvP would have the audacity to slot traits that make them more proficient at it.

    Surely, if PvP were in as bad a state as you claim, there'd be dozens of threads flooding the forums. I've been around MMOs for nearly 30 years, and any time something is significantly broken, or perceived as such, the forums are awash with it. Why is that this is the only thread claiming that PvP builds make PvP imbalanced? Why, do you suppose, all the other players in PvP aren't jumping in here in support of your brilliant idea? Do you suppose it's because they don't think it's a problem, or is it that they don't find it to be a brilliant idea?

    check out snowcrows, or qt, or any other pve build website. none of the pve builds use those traits or skills. none of them. they are purely for pvp, and they are too strong. use the search function in the pvp section, there are complaints about them every single week going back years.

    speaking of the pvp section, how about taking a gander in there? the forum is flooded with threads about nerf x buff y because x is OP. thing is, it's always the same complaint, x does too much damage or has no vulnerable period.

    I'm going to assume it's because people who pvp don't visit the pve section. i'll post it over there though, lets see if it gets support?

    You mean the Rock, paper scissors meme threads? In almost 30 years of MMO gaming, I've seen them all. In an old Korean Grinder called Rappelz I used to play, you almost literally needed a canoe to navigate the PvP forums, and this was right at 20 years ago. It was really bad on the hardcore rules server, there you could drop your gear if you lost. I've watched "for balance" patches break PvE in more games than I care to mention, and it was really prominent in swtor, where some classes couldn't raid any more because of the nerfs. The bosses all had rage timers, and if you didn't beat the timer, it was a wipe, and the dps was cut so bad that these classes couldn't contribute. So let's not try to pretend I'm some nub fresh off the boat, ok? I understand what the PvP community is like, at least on the forums, across the industry. Any class that's being played well is OP according to PVPJonny, who believes he's the best player in the world.

    Here's a funny for you, I've had a poster try to tell me that PvPers were the only ones keeping the lights on in DDO, a game where the PvP is limited to bar room brawls and dueling zones. There might be 100 people across the whole game who PvP at all. They tried to pull one of these threads: Nerf everyone for PvP balance. Turbine, now Standing Stone Games told them to either PvP the way it is, or find a more PvPcentric game to play, because they weren't nerfing anything for PvP. It's 11 years old, and didn't require PvP to stay running. I hope they don't say anything too mean to you over there, although I expect you'll get a lot of "git gud" and "L2P".

    It's fun that you keep mentioning 30 years of MMO gaming when the first MMO came out in 1997, 21 years ago. not that it matters, since that entire paragraph has literally nothing to do with the topic. the damage modifiers are needed for pve, but are way too strong in pvp/wvw. which is why i'm suggesting they skill split modifiers to be twice as strong in pve. if anything, it's a gain in damage for pve modes.

    http://iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/Spring05/Hill/mmorpg.html

    Funny, so far not only every bit of math you did in this thread needed some one correcting you on. You didn't even manage to properly Google search the first MMO (which released in 96).

    So tell us, how serious are we supposed to take you at this point?

    The problem of being so "right" while being so wrong is that people will call you out on it.

    kitten, you sure got me there. 21 years ago vs 22 years ago, both of which are under 30 years ago. Really nice choice of website too, very reputable source that 'believes' the first mmo came around in 96.

    funny that you don't actually have any arguments against the idea of this thread, but don't like change and would rather argue on a forum then actually provide a solution.

    what's next, going to check for spelling errors to show my idea is flawed? It's leviOsa, not leviosA genius!

    The link was literally the first google search result which did pop up when searching something as basic as "first MMO year release". The link also gives some interesting backgroup information which sheds some light on your miscommunication with robertthebard showing that he most likely meant MUDs when refering to MMOs and those were around way longer than 30 years. Given his likely age, this makes him in use of incorrect terminology when referring to MUDs even though they are spiritual predecessors to MMOs. Your response in contrast was 100% factually incorrect.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meridian_59

    You are correct, I should have spent 10 more seconds and actually read up on Meridian 59, it did launch in 1995 making you now 2 years off instead of 1.

    All I'm saying is, in this thread so far:

    • you had multiple times bad math which others had to correct you on. Every time not in favor of your argument
    • you were correcting people based on subjective information and beliefs (very likely referring to Ultimate Online for example even though that was not the first MMO around) which were incorrect and as easy to check as typing in 4 words on google
    • you drastically underestimate the developers ability to work simple addition and multiplication when referring to damage coefficients (which I did point out multiple times)

    As a result I was calling into question how serious your current and future arguments should and can be taken. Not very unreasonable is it?

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2018

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    how nitpicky do you need to get really? should i post the exact defensive rotation of every single meta class? after that, are you going to require the build, maybe a step by step walk through in how to play them? will that also not be enough, you require video evidence of me using each and every meta profession? What exactly do you consider definitive proof, before i spend my time on it?

    No, i asked for it, because i know for a fact you wouldn't be able to do it - because what you claimed was simply not true. You were exagerrating, and by a lot.

    remember, the forums are the best place to be for someone who can't compete in any game mode.

    Precisely. That's exactly why you should not try to balance competitive modes based solely on forum RPS-style posts, like you seem to be doing.

    So, prove your point. Again, you haven't done so yet. You haven't posted even a single solid argument so far, only massive exagerations and appeal to popularity. Those aren't arguments anyone professional would use as a reason to balance the game.

    I mean, you surely researched your proposal before you posted, right? That means you should have at least a number of examples, and some math to back it up. Why not show us that?

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2018

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    since player perception is what pays their paychecks, might be worth checking into right? add more damage, add more defense, repeat. eventually you reach a point where the game is no longer accessible to new players and is straight out frustrating for old ones. That's the point we're at right now, and the solution is to decrease both damage and defense. i still haven't seen a suggestion from you on how to do so. Until then...?

    the negative feedback i'm getting is because splitting hairs is easier than brainstorming solutions, your post history shows plenty of the former with absolutely none of the latter.

    You haven't got a suggestion from me how to do it for lots of reasons; the primary one being that it would validate something I don't think is true. No, I don't think we are the point where the solution is to decrease damage and defense; the 'pace' of this game is actually pretty typical for MMO's, so I don't see a problem with the amount of damage/defense we are seeing. This is one area where I don't think Anet should experiment with; the 'pace' at which you flow through an MMO, determined by the things you do in it, is on point. It's not a chess match, but it's not twitch meth addict level either.

    Appealing to the collapse of the game by not addressing this issue is sensationalism; the pace of the game is very typical, and has been since it's release. I can only think that however we characterize the pace, it's the pace that the people that play this game like. As much as you claim the pace has changed for the worse, it really hasn't; there isn't some explosion of damage multipliers part way through the history of the game. If it was to change by an order of magnitude either way, you might have a point. It hasn't done that. It would shed players if that was the case, from either being too boring for them, or too fast. The pace of the game isn't a problem.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/9zlijh/damage_creep_in_pvp_feels_insane/

    notice something each of these have in common: high iframe uptime, high damage through stacking multipliers, high endurance regen. All of them are played at twitch meth addict level, because an enemy missing one dodge is enough to get a kill while they chain together all of the iframes available to not take damage, or disengage with superior mobility once the iframes are finally on cd.

    the solution seems pretty simple, reduce the effectiveness of damage multipliers, reduce iframes, reduce endurance regen traits. you know, the topic of the thread.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I think you are still making some incorrect correlations.

    How damage is calculated has nothing to do with high damage or burst. All variables can be manipulated. The fact that balance patches every X months do not reduce all damage across the board is indicative that developers intend damage to be this high. They CAN reduce damage significantly as seen post PoF launch where elite specializations were flirting with 60k dps and above, for a week.

    Now take into account the move against the bunker meta, thus not wanting to have super tanky builds live for ever in spvp, and you might have a culprit for your issues.

    TL;DR: if you want a more tanky spvp meta, make a case for it and against the anti-bunker approach currently in place. This has nothing to do with multipliers.

    So I guess looking for a balanced meta is out of the question? Because that's what I'd like to see. Some of the power creep toned down.

    The way to do so is by reducing burst and by reducing passive invulns. We can't reduce the invulns until damage is lowered.

    The most fair way to lower damage is changing the system from multiplicative to additive, as that affects each class the same way.

    Then shave a second off invulns, shave off 20% from all endurance regen traits.

    Voila, ttk is increased but the game retains its fast pace.

    No? If you take 20% away from endurance regens, you're shortening a fight by 20% in PvP. This would have the opposite effect of what you're trying to accomplish. Taking away iframes will mean that you're always going to be taking that damage, which will also lead to shorter fights, thus accomplishing the opposite of what you're claiming to aim for. I'm starting to feel deceived here.

    Endurance regeneration traits. Adrenal implant etc.

    This makes people use their defensive cds only when needed instead of chaining them together to never take a hit. It promotes skilled plays

    This also hurts bunkers, so we don't move back to a bunker meta.

    It's PvP, they're always needed. That's what the dodge tutorials teach you in every starter zone. How to dodge, and why you should do it. There seems to be some kind of secondary agenda here, and the more I read, the more I feel like someone dodged one of your one shot kill skills, and then, while you were raging about that, one shot killed you, and you had to come up with a reason, and so here we sit, discussing crit multipliers, and nerfing defensive skills and tactics "to make fights longer", despite the fact that it would have the opposite effect. Simple logic there.

    An example scenario: Your system cuts 1 second from iframe, and I use a skill that has a 1 second iframe to dodge your attack. For this example, you cannot crit, there are no crit modifiers, so it's all just base damage. What this does is make it so that instead of avoiding that one attack, I take full damage from it, negating the endurance I spent dodging your attack, and, with a lower regen, making it pointless to try to do so again. How is this going to make a fight last longer? The simple answer is that it's not going to. It's going to make all fights shorter, even ones that would naturally be longer in the current system. That's what happens when you nerf defenses, they are nullified, meaning that you may as well not have them, but this is supposed to improve PvP? For whom?

    You don't understand. People are not using dodges/invulns/defensive cds to avoid a specific attack. They're just chaining them together to never have a vulnerable period at all, because there are too many /cds are too short. Which they have to be as a result of power creep that has made damage too high.

    By reducing damage, we can then reduce iframe uptime. Instead of escalating the arms race, ie. Power creep, we can reduce it. This promotes skillful play and increases ttk

    Evidently you don't understand: there are mechanics in this game that require you to dodge outside of PvP, and they rely on that iframe to negate possible death. Reducing the iframe will not improve the game, it will lead to party wipes in group content where it wouldn't happen. Reducing the regen on endurance will not improve PvE play, it will instead also lead to party wipes that shouldn't have happened. Dungeon and fractal bosses aren't governed by the same rules. The base damage on their attacks is high, and it's high for a reason: It's supposed to be some of the harder content in the game. Decreasing player defenses because you don't like how some people play doesn't improve the game, it hurts it, all to assuage your ego.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invulnerability

    name one meta pve build that relies on these skills/traits.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Endurance

    how about these ones? which pve builds even run these traitlines and choose those traits over damage oriented traits? which pve builds use orrian meat and truffle, educate me.

    i love that you're bringing dungeons into it too, because those are really challenging pve content lmao

    https://snowcrows.com/

    staff daredevil takes staff mastery, and they take it for the damage increase. That's the only one.

    This was exactly what I was talking about. Tell me one class that doesn't have dodge?

    Tf are you talking about? They all do. Read above, where I repeatedly state endurance regen TRAITS. Which increase endurance regen, which allows too much sustain without investment into any defensive stats. Which are almost all used on every meta pvp/WvW build.

    Nerfing those will have 0 effect on pve. Absolutely no effect. Reducing them greatly reduces power creep in pvp/WvW. Which is the desired result!

    They all do, and you want to diminish the iframe. That you believe it has no effect does not make it true. The only thing you see is "but mah PvP", and everyone else is a sacrificial lamb for your objective. I'm shocked, shocked, I say, to find out that people playing PvP would have the audacity to slot traits that make them more proficient at it.

    Surely, if PvP were in as bad a state as you claim, there'd be dozens of threads flooding the forums. I've been around MMOs for nearly 30 years, and any time something is significantly broken, or perceived as such, the forums are awash with it. Why is that this is the only thread claiming that PvP builds make PvP imbalanced? Why, do you suppose, all the other players in PvP aren't jumping in here in support of your brilliant idea? Do you suppose it's because they don't think it's a problem, or is it that they don't find it to be a brilliant idea?

    check out snowcrows, or qt, or any other pve build website. none of the pve builds use those traits or skills. none of them. they are purely for pvp, and they are too strong. use the search function in the pvp section, there are complaints about them every single week going back years.

    speaking of the pvp section, how about taking a gander in there? the forum is flooded with threads about nerf x buff y because x is OP. thing is, it's always the same complaint, x does too much damage or has no vulnerable period.

    I'm going to assume it's because people who pvp don't visit the pve section. i'll post it over there though, lets see if it gets support?

    You mean the Rock, paper scissors meme threads? In almost 30 years of MMO gaming, I've seen them all. In an old Korean Grinder called Rappelz I used to play, you almost literally needed a canoe to navigate the PvP forums, and this was right at 20 years ago. It was really bad on the hardcore rules server, there you could drop your gear if you lost. I've watched "for balance" patches break PvE in more games than I care to mention, and it was really prominent in swtor, where some classes couldn't raid any more because of the nerfs. The bosses all had rage timers, and if you didn't beat the timer, it was a wipe, and the dps was cut so bad that these classes couldn't contribute. So let's not try to pretend I'm some nub fresh off the boat, ok? I understand what the PvP community is like, at least on the forums, across the industry. Any class that's being played well is OP according to PVPJonny, who believes he's the best player in the world.

    Here's a funny for you, I've had a poster try to tell me that PvPers were the only ones keeping the lights on in DDO, a game where the PvP is limited to bar room brawls and dueling zones. There might be 100 people across the whole game who PvP at all. They tried to pull one of these threads: Nerf everyone for PvP balance. Turbine, now Standing Stone Games told them to either PvP the way it is, or find a more PvPcentric game to play, because they weren't nerfing anything for PvP. It's 11 years old, and didn't require PvP to stay running. I hope they don't say anything too mean to you over there, although I expect you'll get a lot of "git gud" and "L2P".

    It's fun that you keep mentioning 30 years of MMO gaming when the first MMO came out in 1997, 21 years ago. not that it matters, since that entire paragraph has literally nothing to do with the topic. the damage modifiers are needed for pve, but are way too strong in pvp/wvw. which is why i'm suggesting they skill split modifiers to be twice as strong in pve. if anything, it's a gain in damage for pve modes.

    http://iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/Spring05/Hill/mmorpg.html

    Funny, so far not only every bit of math you did in this thread needed some one correcting you on. You didn't even manage to properly Google search the first MMO (which released in 96).

    So tell us, how serious are we supposed to take you at this point?

    The problem of being so "right" while being so wrong is that people will call you out on it.

    kitten, you sure got me there. 21 years ago vs 22 years ago, both of which are under 30 years ago. Really nice choice of website too, very reputable source that 'believes' the first mmo came around in 96.

    funny that you don't actually have any arguments against the idea of this thread, but don't like change and would rather argue on a forum then actually provide a solution.

    what's next, going to check for spelling errors to show my idea is flawed? It's leviOsa, not leviosA genius!

    The link was literally the first google search result which did pop up when searching something as basic as "first MMO year release". The link also gives some interesting backgroup information which sheds some light on your miscommunication with robertthebard showing that he most likely meant MUDs when refering to MMOs and those were around way longer than 30 years. Given his likely age, this makes him in use of incorrect terminology when referring to MUDs even though they are spiritual predecessors to MMOs. Your response in contrast was 100% factually incorrect.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meridian_59

    You are correct, I should have spent 10 more seconds and actually read up on Meridian 59, it did launch in 1995 making you now 2 years off instead of 1.

    All I'm saying is, in this thread so far:

    • you had multiple times bad math which others had to correct you on. Every time not in favor of your argument
    • you were correcting people based on subjective information and beliefs (very likely referring to Ultimate Online for example even though that was not the first MMO around) which were incorrect and as easy to check as typing in 4 words on google
    • you drastically underestimate the developers ability to work simple addition and multiplication when referring to damage coefficients (which I did point out multiple times)

    As a result I was calling into question how serious your current and future arguments should and can be taken. Not very unreasonable is it?

    23 years is not lower than 30 years then, got it! 2.67 modifier is not significantly higher than 2.15 either, right? shaving that number down wouldn't reduce power creep at all. making one change vs changing the traitlines of 9 different classes makes absolutely no sense to you, obviously.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    how nitpicky do you need to get really? should i post the exact defensive rotation of every single meta class? after that, are you going to require the build, maybe a step by step walk through in how to play them? will that also not be enough, you require video evidence of me using each and every meta profession? What exactly do you consider definitive proof, before i spend my time on it?

    No, i asked for it, because i know for a fact you wouldn't be able to do it - because what you claimed was simply not true. You were exagerrating, and by a lot.

    remember, the forums are the best place to be for someone who can't compete in any game mode.

    Precisely. That's exactly why you should not try to balance competitive modes based solely on forum RPS-style posts, like you seem to be doing.

    So, prove your point. Again, you haven't done so yet. You haven't posted even a single solid argument so far, only massive exagerations and appeal to popularity. Those aren't arguments anyone professional would use as a reason to balance the game.

    I mean, you surely researched your proposal before you posted, right? That means you should have at least a number of examples, and some math to back it up. Why not show us that?

    surely you compete at a level above silver right? you roam in wvw? zerg in wvw? or do you occasionally do t4 fractals when you're feeling like you want a challenge? lmao

    scroll up, 6 videos linked showing people chaining together all of their iframes to take little to no damage while in full glass gear. I'm exaggerating so badly that i found 6 videos from the last couple weeks that show exactly what i'm talking about.

    the power creep is very clearly an issue to anyone who plays in a competitive gamemode. since you clearly have not experienced it, i'm going to assume it's because you can't compete at a competitive level.

    out of curiosity, what's your rank in pvp? do you even pvp, or do you not like that gamemode because you die in 2s and have no way to improve, possibly because the power creep has made it inaccessible to new players?

  • So what I've learned from all these videos is that some people know how to play, and others don't.

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2018

    Makes little difference. This is never an important issues regardless of which game you are. Every game has no issue with multiplicative and additive stats, gw2 is of no exception.

    The main issue is the lack of consistency. For example, gears and runes supposedly to be inherently balanced by using mathematically same stats. Problem is anet did not consistently apply such logic throughout the expansions which means some gears and runes have mathematically higher stats. This already mentioned by players in previous years. Gw2 initial principle to balance is to eliminate the need to balance gears, runes and sigil while focusing on traits and skills alone, to do so they just make it that these items are mathematically balanced. This much is obvious from the mathematical similar gears, runes, sigil and personal base stats. Anet then simply thew this approach out and introduce something completely different with expansions which till today, I have no idea what their approach is.

    Founder & Retired Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
    Henge of Denravi
    https://discord.gg/P5dj7fd

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2018

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I think you are still making some incorrect correlations.

    How damage is calculated has nothing to do with high damage or burst. All variables can be manipulated. The fact that balance patches every X months do not reduce all damage across the board is indicative that developers intend damage to be this high. They CAN reduce damage significantly as seen post PoF launch where elite specializations were flirting with 60k dps and above, for a week.

    Now take into account the move against the bunker meta, thus not wanting to have super tanky builds live for ever in spvp, and you might have a culprit for your issues.

    TL;DR: if you want a more tanky spvp meta, make a case for it and against the anti-bunker approach currently in place. This has nothing to do with multipliers.

    So I guess looking for a balanced meta is out of the question? Because that's what I'd like to see. Some of the power creep toned down.

    The way to do so is by reducing burst and by reducing passive invulns. We can't reduce the invulns until damage is lowered.

    The most fair way to lower damage is changing the system from multiplicative to additive, as that affects each class the same way.

    Then shave a second off invulns, shave off 20% from all endurance regen traits.

    Voila, ttk is increased but the game retains its fast pace.

    No? If you take 20% away from endurance regens, you're shortening a fight by 20% in PvP. This would have the opposite effect of what you're trying to accomplish. Taking away iframes will mean that you're always going to be taking that damage, which will also lead to shorter fights, thus accomplishing the opposite of what you're claiming to aim for. I'm starting to feel deceived here.

    Endurance regeneration traits. Adrenal implant etc.

    This makes people use their defensive cds only when needed instead of chaining them together to never take a hit. It promotes skilled plays

    This also hurts bunkers, so we don't move back to a bunker meta.

    It's PvP, they're always needed. That's what the dodge tutorials teach you in every starter zone. How to dodge, and why you should do it. There seems to be some kind of secondary agenda here, and the more I read, the more I feel like someone dodged one of your one shot kill skills, and then, while you were raging about that, one shot killed you, and you had to come up with a reason, and so here we sit, discussing crit multipliers, and nerfing defensive skills and tactics "to make fights longer", despite the fact that it would have the opposite effect. Simple logic there.

    An example scenario: Your system cuts 1 second from iframe, and I use a skill that has a 1 second iframe to dodge your attack. For this example, you cannot crit, there are no crit modifiers, so it's all just base damage. What this does is make it so that instead of avoiding that one attack, I take full damage from it, negating the endurance I spent dodging your attack, and, with a lower regen, making it pointless to try to do so again. How is this going to make a fight last longer? The simple answer is that it's not going to. It's going to make all fights shorter, even ones that would naturally be longer in the current system. That's what happens when you nerf defenses, they are nullified, meaning that you may as well not have them, but this is supposed to improve PvP? For whom?

    You don't understand. People are not using dodges/invulns/defensive cds to avoid a specific attack. They're just chaining them together to never have a vulnerable period at all, because there are too many /cds are too short. Which they have to be as a result of power creep that has made damage too high.

    By reducing damage, we can then reduce iframe uptime. Instead of escalating the arms race, ie. Power creep, we can reduce it. This promotes skillful play and increases ttk

    Evidently you don't understand: there are mechanics in this game that require you to dodge outside of PvP, and they rely on that iframe to negate possible death. Reducing the iframe will not improve the game, it will lead to party wipes in group content where it wouldn't happen. Reducing the regen on endurance will not improve PvE play, it will instead also lead to party wipes that shouldn't have happened. Dungeon and fractal bosses aren't governed by the same rules. The base damage on their attacks is high, and it's high for a reason: It's supposed to be some of the harder content in the game. Decreasing player defenses because you don't like how some people play doesn't improve the game, it hurts it, all to assuage your ego.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invulnerability

    name one meta pve build that relies on these skills/traits.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Endurance

    how about these ones? which pve builds even run these traitlines and choose those traits over damage oriented traits? which pve builds use orrian meat and truffle, educate me.

    i love that you're bringing dungeons into it too, because those are really challenging pve content lmao

    https://snowcrows.com/

    staff daredevil takes staff mastery, and they take it for the damage increase. That's the only one.

    This was exactly what I was talking about. Tell me one class that doesn't have dodge?

    Tf are you talking about? They all do. Read above, where I repeatedly state endurance regen TRAITS. Which increase endurance regen, which allows too much sustain without investment into any defensive stats. Which are almost all used on every meta pvp/WvW build.

    Nerfing those will have 0 effect on pve. Absolutely no effect. Reducing them greatly reduces power creep in pvp/WvW. Which is the desired result!

    They all do, and you want to diminish the iframe. That you believe it has no effect does not make it true. The only thing you see is "but mah PvP", and everyone else is a sacrificial lamb for your objective. I'm shocked, shocked, I say, to find out that people playing PvP would have the audacity to slot traits that make them more proficient at it.

    Surely, if PvP were in as bad a state as you claim, there'd be dozens of threads flooding the forums. I've been around MMOs for nearly 30 years, and any time something is significantly broken, or perceived as such, the forums are awash with it. Why is that this is the only thread claiming that PvP builds make PvP imbalanced? Why, do you suppose, all the other players in PvP aren't jumping in here in support of your brilliant idea? Do you suppose it's because they don't think it's a problem, or is it that they don't find it to be a brilliant idea?

    check out snowcrows, or qt, or any other pve build website. none of the pve builds use those traits or skills. none of them. they are purely for pvp, and they are too strong. use the search function in the pvp section, there are complaints about them every single week going back years.

    speaking of the pvp section, how about taking a gander in there? the forum is flooded with threads about nerf x buff y because x is OP. thing is, it's always the same complaint, x does too much damage or has no vulnerable period.

    I'm going to assume it's because people who pvp don't visit the pve section. i'll post it over there though, lets see if it gets support?

    You mean the Rock, paper scissors meme threads? In almost 30 years of MMO gaming, I've seen them all. In an old Korean Grinder called Rappelz I used to play, you almost literally needed a canoe to navigate the PvP forums, and this was right at 20 years ago. It was really bad on the hardcore rules server, there you could drop your gear if you lost. I've watched "for balance" patches break PvE in more games than I care to mention, and it was really prominent in swtor, where some classes couldn't raid any more because of the nerfs. The bosses all had rage timers, and if you didn't beat the timer, it was a wipe, and the dps was cut so bad that these classes couldn't contribute. So let's not try to pretend I'm some nub fresh off the boat, ok? I understand what the PvP community is like, at least on the forums, across the industry. Any class that's being played well is OP according to PVPJonny, who believes he's the best player in the world.

    Here's a funny for you, I've had a poster try to tell me that PvPers were the only ones keeping the lights on in DDO, a game where the PvP is limited to bar room brawls and dueling zones. There might be 100 people across the whole game who PvP at all. They tried to pull one of these threads: Nerf everyone for PvP balance. Turbine, now Standing Stone Games told them to either PvP the way it is, or find a more PvPcentric game to play, because they weren't nerfing anything for PvP. It's 11 years old, and didn't require PvP to stay running. I hope they don't say anything too mean to you over there, although I expect you'll get a lot of "git gud" and "L2P".

    It's fun that you keep mentioning 30 years of MMO gaming when the first MMO came out in 1997, 21 years ago. not that it matters, since that entire paragraph has literally nothing to do with the topic. the damage modifiers are needed for pve, but are way too strong in pvp/wvw. which is why i'm suggesting they skill split modifiers to be twice as strong in pve. if anything, it's a gain in damage for pve modes.

    http://iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/Spring05/Hill/mmorpg.html

    Funny, so far not only every bit of math you did in this thread needed some one correcting you on. You didn't even manage to properly Google search the first MMO (which released in 96).

    So tell us, how serious are we supposed to take you at this point?

    The problem of being so "right" while being so wrong is that people will call you out on it.

    kitten, you sure got me there. 21 years ago vs 22 years ago, both of which are under 30 years ago. Really nice choice of website too, very reputable source that 'believes' the first mmo came around in 96.

    funny that you don't actually have any arguments against the idea of this thread, but don't like change and would rather argue on a forum then actually provide a solution.

    what's next, going to check for spelling errors to show my idea is flawed? It's leviOsa, not leviosA genius!

    The link was literally the first google search result which did pop up when searching something as basic as "first MMO year release". The link also gives some interesting backgroup information which sheds some light on your miscommunication with robertthebard showing that he most likely meant MUDs when refering to MMOs and those were around way longer than 30 years. Given his likely age, this makes him in use of incorrect terminology when referring to MUDs even though they are spiritual predecessors to MMOs. Your response in contrast was 100% factually incorrect.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meridian_59

    You are correct, I should have spent 10 more seconds and actually read up on Meridian 59, it did launch in 1995 making you now 2 years off instead of 1.

    All I'm saying is, in this thread so far:

    • you had multiple times bad math which others had to correct you on. Every time not in favor of your argument
    • you were correcting people based on subjective information and beliefs (very likely referring to Ultimate Online for example even though that was not the first MMO around) which were incorrect and as easy to check as typing in 4 words on google
    • you drastically underestimate the developers ability to work simple addition and multiplication when referring to damage coefficients (which I did point out multiple times)

    As a result I was calling into question how serious your current and future arguments should and can be taken. Not very unreasonable is it?

    23 years is not lower than 30 years then, got it! 2.67 modifier is not significantly higher than 2.15 either, right? shaving that number down wouldn't reduce power creep at all. making one change vs changing the traitlines of 9 different classes makes absolutely no sense to you, obviously.

    Ah the select reading, cherry picking and dismissal of any valid arguments and once again mistakes without end.

    Again, your entire presumption is based on the misguided assumption that addition is easier than multiplication when changing values. It is not.

    The next assumption is that changing the system to additive damage calculation will automatically fix the problem. It would not (or it is very doubtful that no further adjustment might be needed). Thus requiring re-balancing all professions and trait lines. So why not go there strait away and cut out the middle man?

    23 years is lower than 30 years if those 23 years are based on a misunderstanding or terminology error. MUDs have been around way longer than 30 years and some have behaved very similar to MMOs, and are closer to some MMOs of today than traditional MMOs are.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    notice something each of these have in common: high iframe uptime, high damage through stacking multipliers, high endurance regen. All of them are played at twitch meth addict level, because an enemy missing one dodge is enough to get a kill while they chain together all of the iframes available to not take damage, or disengage with superior mobility once the iframes are finally on cd.

    I suggest you look through those videos again, because they do not show those "15 sec long invuln chains" you spoke of before. The moments the builds are invulnerable/evade damage are much shorter - in most cases only a few seconds long. And the videos clearly show them receiving damage. They are just very good at avoiding getting downed by that damage, while getting their health back very fast.

    Notice also, that a lot of the fights do not end up in seconds, they are just cut to show only highlights of the fight (in one video this is even clearly mentioned), and the opponents often use also meta pvp builds. That doesn't stop them from getting killed.

    (by the way, last video includes a build utilizing a rune set that is probably broken now)

    So, in short, those videos do not back up your exagerrations about defensive capabilities of pvp meta builds. The mirage does come close, but still falls short of the image you painted in your posts earlier.

    surely you compete at a level above silver right? you roam in wvw? zerg in wvw? or do you occasionally do t4 fractals when you're feeling like you want a challenge? lmao

    I no longer play pvp, but i did play before (although never at the top level). I do roam and zerg in wvw, i do play fractals, and i happen to raid a lot.
    Your point?

    scroll up, 6 videos linked showing people chaining together all of their iframes to take little to no damage while in full glass gear. I'm exaggerating so badly that i found 6 videos from the last couple weeks that show exactly what i'm talking about.

    Except those videos do not show what you talked about. They do show however that what you claimed was heavily exagerrated.

    A little reminder - what you claimed was this:

    People are not using dodges/invulns/defensive cds to avoid a specific attack. They're just chaining them together to never have a vulnerable period at all

    which you later changed to

    it's not an exaggeration. top revs, mirage, holos, and sbs right now are literally untouchable for 15s at a time

    and

    15s at a time is essentially the same thing. show up on point, drop everything while taking no hits, disengage if it doesn't end the fight. all of the meta classes have this capability

    Notice, how the videos do not show that. The last one is the closest, but even the mirage in it does take hits way more often, and the weaver survives by outbarriering the damage, not by not taking hits.

    Also, your claim that all meta classes have this capability is even further from the truth. But then, you probably already know that.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • joneirikb.7506joneirikb.7506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Personally I think that damage multipliers shouldn't stack at all.

    ANet should re-balance all skills so that you don't need damage multipliers to actually hurts things, and rather give specific damage bonuses that doesn't stack for limited time/activations. So instead of stacking every single damage multiplier on top of each others, players should try to weave between 2 or 3 of them over time in order to keep damage numbers up.

    We might actually see slightly more variety in builds that way as well.

    Example Guardian has a trait that gives damage increase when they got retaliation, another damage increase when enemy is on fire, another damage increase when using great-swords etc. By making these non-stackable, you'd be better rewarded to time them out so you constantly had one of them active.

    It might also tune down some of this 1shot meta we have in the pvp'ush modes. One could hope.

  • @joneirikb.7506 said:
    Personally I think that damage multipliers shouldn't stack at all.

    ANet should re-balance all skills so that you don't need damage multipliers to actually hurts things, and rather give specific damage bonuses that doesn't stack for limited time/activations. So instead of stacking every single damage multiplier on top of each others, players should try to weave between 2 or 3 of them over time in order to keep damage numbers up.

    We might actually see slightly more variety in builds that way as well.

    Example Guardian has a trait that gives damage increase when they got retaliation, another damage increase when enemy is on fire, another damage increase when using great-swords etc. By making these non-stackable, you'd be better rewarded to time them out so you constantly had one of them active.

    It might also tune down some of this 1shot meta we have in the pvp'ush modes. One could hope.

    You think this sounds like a good idea, until you're the one that's having to spend as much time swapping weapons as attacking anything. What happens with a great sword with condi on it? Which damage are you going to sacrifice? All I see this doing is rendering about half of the weapon crafting insignias useless.