thank god we have player that allow necromancer in end game content — Guild Wars 2 Forums

thank god we have player that allow necromancer in end game content

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  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 20, 2018

    The problem is, that it's still true.

    I can do almost the golem DPS (500 away) that snowcrows do. And still I'm getting out dpsd by any other DPS in my raidgroup, even if they are playing not so good or don't reach golem DPS benchmarks.

    I mean. Scourge is good at sabetha for kiting and desmina for golems and wurms, but outside of that, better reroll to another spec.

    Now you could come, tell me to play reaper. As it's benchmark is 3k higher than scourge.

    Problem: it's still 3k below meta classes and it's way more conditional than meta classes.
    Here's why:
    Scholar uptime. Well it got changed, but you will still loose 5 % DPS by going in shroud with less than 90% health. For the whole time of being in shroud, while other classes will loose it only for a short period of time due to regeneration healing them back up.

    Or next: you take a big hit in shroud, that will loose you 10% DPS (because lifeforce will drop below 50%). While other classes will only loose 5% and can get healed back up, while on reaper you have to get the lifeforce yourself.

  • Trouble with necro it's either too powerful and broken or it's too weak and unwanted.

    A City of Heroes never die... A City of Villains will never surrender... Neither City will be forgotten.

  • Blue.1207Blue.1207 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 20, 2018

    Make your own group and let necros in. This is what I do when I want to play Power Herald.

    GG. Ez.

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I still think Arenanet should implement auto-matching for LFGs and not allow kicking. Then, players will just have to deal with a group a server picked for them or /gg.

  • @Zero.3871 said:

    @HardRider.2980 said:
    Trouble with necro it's either too powerful and broken or it's too weak and unwanted.

    necro isnt too powerful. People in this game are just supid. so many cry ever: "oh i died because of that condi trash of necro"
    when they had 2 stacks of bleeding and cripple,chill, 1 stack vulnerability. 4 condis without any dmg. in fact they died because they got hit for 12k+ hits by 3-4 Revenants or eles. but they still flame necros because this noobs simply dont understand what killed them. they are overstrained with the Things that happened around them so they just copy Forum Flames and Think they are very knowledged persons, but in fact they arent. but thats gw2. too many noobs without any clue of the game thinking they are pvp gods and now everything...

    There have been times actually where in certain situations we have been overpowered.
    As a necro I have to admit that.
    Sadly.. The answer to that is to nuke the class instead of bringing down the numbers a little bit

    A City of Heroes never die... A City of Villains will never surrender... Neither City will be forgotten.

  • @Obtena.7952 said:
    What amazes me is that people that want to play how they want have a problem with other people that want to play how they want.

    What amazes me is that people like you wont see the point of this discussion let me educate you

    1- necro have the lowest dps in end game content (cdps or pdps)
    2- necro support have limited to no role in end game content ( qadim kiter healer )
    3- end game content mechanic wise necro have a limited role (reaper solo lamp 1 and 2 \epi in Soulless Horror)
    4- because of the first 3 points the community became toxic to necro (even if i started a squad as a necro i wont take another necro)too many necro = less dps and utility

    the sad thing is from pvp and wvw the pve necro get nerf from rune change the pve necro get nerf
    how i know this is sad cuz in the last patch the only profession in the game that get a nerf was a necro

  • Noha.3749Noha.3749 Member ✭✭✭

    uhm..

    Necro got the best AoE in the game, would be hard to balance it if they didnt have less single target dmg out there.
    AoE as in hitting multiple targets, not multiprocs on "big" targets*.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Noha.3749 said:
    uhm..

    Necro got the best AoE in the game, would be hard to balance it if they didnt have less single target dmg out there.
    AoE as in hitting multiple targets, not multiprocs on "big" targets*.

    I'm affraid it's a narrow point of view. It's like denying all the aoe possibilities of the other professions. I mean, AoE that pulse damage are pretty common on other profession and tend to have relatively short cool down, like guardian's symbols or let's say elementalist's lava font or even revenant's mallyx utilities. Cleaving was even literally an impossibility for the necromancer before HoT.

    It's not that the necromancer have the "best" AoE in the game nor the most AoE, it's more that it is easier for him to lay/use them. Laying down AoE as a necromancer is just more forgiving than for other professions, nothing more, nothing less.

  • Noha.3749Noha.3749 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Noha.3749 said:
    uhm..

    Necro got the best AoE in the game, would be hard to balance it if they didnt have less single target dmg out there.
    AoE as in hitting multiple targets, not multiprocs on "big" targets*.

    I'm affraid it's a narrow point of view. It's like denying all the aoe possibilities of the other professions. I mean, AoE that pulse damage are pretty common on other profession and tend to have relatively short cool down, like guardian's symbols or let's say elementalist's lava font or even revenant's mallyx utilities. Cleaving was even literally an impossibility for the necromancer before HoT.

    It's not that the necromancer have the "best" AoE in the game nor the most AoE, it's more that it is easier for him to lay/use them. Laying down AoE as a necromancer is just more forgiving than for other professions, nothing more, nothing less.

    well fair enough, i wasnt excatly pinpointing what i meant.
    Ill say that Scourge got the best potential to cover as much ground as possible with AoE, i dont know any other profession able to cover such a massive area with AoEs, allthough the AoE abilities by themselves against a single target can be strong, its not on par with dedicated single target damage that other professions can provide.

    But those professions cant cover the same amount of landscape with AoEs :p For better and worse i suppose. If bosses had more adds than what they do i think stuff would look different.

  • I think, maybe we need more raid encounters with lots of adds, so the next time these people try to enter in your party you tell them "oh well, look who we have here, the "necro-hater", well buddy, no party for you".

    in fact, make a whole raid with bosses full of adds.

    Fall down seven times, get up eight.

  • @Noha.3749 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Noha.3749 said:
    uhm..

    Necro got the best AoE in the game, would be hard to balance it if they didnt have less single target dmg out there.
    AoE as in hitting multiple targets, not multiprocs on "big" targets*.

    I'm affraid it's a narrow point of view. It's like denying all the aoe possibilities of the other professions. I mean, AoE that pulse damage are pretty common on other profession and tend to have relatively short cool down, like guardian's symbols or let's say elementalist's lava font or even revenant's mallyx utilities. Cleaving was even literally an impossibility for the necromancer before HoT.

    It's not that the necromancer have the "best" AoE in the game nor the most AoE, it's more that it is easier for him to lay/use them. Laying down AoE as a necromancer is just more forgiving than for other professions, nothing more, nothing less.

    well fair enough, i wasnt excatly pinpointing what i meant.
    Ill say that Scourge got the best potential to cover as much ground as possible with AoE, i dont know any other profession able to cover such a massive area with AoEs, allthough the AoE abilities by themselves against a single target can be strong, its not on par with dedicated single target damage that other professions can provide.

    But those professions cant cover the same amount of landscape with AoEs :p For better and worse i suppose. If bosses had more adds than what they do i think stuff would look different.

    scourge cover large amount of landscape when he uses Sand Savant witch good in pvp and wvw but useless in end game content cuz its a dps lose and used only for support healer scourge
    even if the scourge uses all his small shade to cover large area the boss will get hit from 1 sand shade
    scourge damage AOE radius is 180 and the damage AOE of every melee weapon in the game range from 120 to 220
    so AOE isnt the problem here at all at least in pve mode

  • Mini Crinny.6190Mini Crinny.6190 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2018

    We use support scourge in our CMs + T4 fractal runs, makes life so easy since the barrier ignores the agony mechanic

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2018

    @DragonFury.6243 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    What amazes me is that people that want to play how they want have a problem with other people that want to play how they want.

    What amazes me is that people like you wont see the point of this discussion let me educate you

    The point of the discussion ignores the fact that they didn't want you in the team ... because they play how they want ... which is exactly the thing you say they shouldn't be doing because you want to play how you want. That's some mighty strong irony right there. pLaying how you want doesn't mean you impose yourself on other players.

    The point of the discussion also ignores this is how the game is designed and intended to work; those people don't want to team with you ... and that's OK for them to refuse you, for whatever good or bad reason they have to do so. The points you list don't change this fundamental principle. They don't want to team you because of your class; make some choices and deal with it.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • DragonFury.6243DragonFury.6243 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2018

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    The point of the discussion ignores the fact that they didn't want you in the team ... because they play how they want ... which is exactly the thing you say they shouldn't be doing because you want to play how you want. That's some mighty strong irony right there. pLaying how you want doesn't mean you impose yourself on other players.

    The point of the discussion also ignores this is how the game is designed and intended to work; those people don't want to team with you ... and that's OK for them to refuse you, for whatever good or bad reason they have to do so. The points you list don't change this fundamental principle. They don't want to team you because of your class; make some choices and deal with it.

    what a pathetic respond prepare to be educated again
    1st they never said they dont want me in their squad they said we dont want a necro in our squad so dont make this post about me
    2nd what give you the idea that i impose myself on them all i saw is a LFG for a raid with KP and a role and i had both so i joined them then they kick me and i asked why that all
    3rd if you still try to make this about me and how they didnt want me in the squad then plz post a video here of you joining and playing a LFG for full W6 and W5 as a necro

    words mean nothing without actions i hope you learn this at least

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2018

    @DragonFury.6243 said:
    words mean nothing without actions i hope you learn this at least

    So true ... you should take your own advice: What actions has Anet done in the history of this game that makes you think what I've said is incorrect? My observations are based on the game history and Anet's approach to developing it; yours are not. I don't have these problems you do ... I understand how the game works and taken that into account when doing content with Necro. It's not the game that should accommodate you, it's that you need to adjust to the game.

    The fact is that you experience this because of the way the game is designed and you have little appreciation for it. You want to play how you want while ignoring how others want to play. It's not something that missing or forgotten in the game that causes this; the design of the game results in favoured classes for people that want to play optimally.

    Bottomline is that you need to learn how to team as a Necro. yes, it's an extra step other classes don't frequently encounter; that's just the nature of the class. Once you figure it out (and its the same for ALL classes), you don't have these problems. IIRC, this isn't the first time you've been told what you need to do to either so honestly, if you aren't willing to take people's advice that know what they are doing and just complain the game doesn't cater to your exacting whim, that's your fault.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • @Obtena.7952 said:

    @DragonFury.6243 said:
    words mean nothing without actions i hope you learn this at least

    So true ... you should take your own advice: What actions has Anet done in the history of this game that makes you think what I've said is incorrect? My observations are based on the game history and Anet's approach to developing it; yours are not. I don't have these problems you do ... I understand how the game works and taken that into account when doing content with Necro. It's not the game that should accommodate you, it's that you need to adjust to the game.

    The fact is that you experience this because of the way the game is designed and you have little appreciation for it. You want to play how you want while ignoring how others want to play. It's not something that missing or forgotten in the game that causes this; the design of the game results in favoured classes for people that want to play optimally.

    Bottomline is that you need to learn how to team as a Necro. yes, it's an extra step other classes don't frequently encounter; that's just the nature of the class. Once you figure it out (and its the same for ALL classes), you don't have these problems. IIRC, this isn't the first time you've been told what you need to do to either so honestly, if you aren't willing to take people's advice that know what they are doing and just complain the game doesn't cater to your exacting whim, that's your fault.

    again you make this about me and that is pathetic i told you that so plz post a video here of you joining and playing a LFG for full W6 and W5 as a necro
    as i told you words mean nothing without actions

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2018

    @Obtena.7952
    "Play how you want" really means "Play according to the game's rules," not total anarchy.

    Arenanet set up the mechanics for instanced content and the mechanics for grouping. There are many other examples of group PvE in the MMO industry, both good and bad, to use as examples. They chose to give players a great deal of control over grouping and designed the encounters. If that results in profession and build exclusion, that is on them and, if raiding is a controversial topic, it is because of Arenanet's design approach.

    Feel free to raid, not raid, change your main profession, flame your raid group members, train your raid group members, never buy gems, or play another game. Those are your rights.

    Should Arenanet think raids are not quite what they envisioned, they have the right to change the rules. They did that with ascended gear, for example, opening it up for people who play competitive modes and fractals instead of having it having it be PvE-only. However, changing a bunch of content could be more work than just changing a profession.

    Reaper was introduced to give Necro power-cleave. Scourge gave group support. Both were OP at some point due to bugs and unintended exploits and are now thoroughly nerfed out of meta. On the other hand, both are good for way-off-meta groups.

    That is one reason to consider automated grouping: If a raider was faced with a real chance of off-meta builds and group comp, Necro with its steady dps up-time might not seem so bad.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2018

    @DragonFury.6243 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @DragonFury.6243 said:
    words mean nothing without actions i hope you learn this at least

    So true ... you should take your own advice: What actions has Anet done in the history of this game that makes you think what I've said is incorrect? My observations are based on the game history and Anet's approach to developing it; yours are not. I don't have these problems you do ... I understand how the game works and taken that into account when doing content with Necro. It's not the game that should accommodate you, it's that you need to adjust to the game.

    The fact is that you experience this because of the way the game is designed and you have little appreciation for it. You want to play how you want while ignoring how others want to play. It's not something that missing or forgotten in the game that causes this; the design of the game results in favoured classes for people that want to play optimally.

    Bottomline is that you need to learn how to team as a Necro. yes, it's an extra step other classes don't frequently encounter; that's just the nature of the class. Once you figure it out (and its the same for ALL classes), you don't have these problems. IIRC, this isn't the first time you've been told what you need to do to either so honestly, if you aren't willing to take people's advice that know what they are doing and just complain the game doesn't cater to your exacting whim, that's your fault.

    again you make this about me and that is pathetic

    No, what's pathetic is that you think you should simply be able to join whatever team you want, irregardless of how the people in that team want to play. For some reason, you think play how you want ideal should only apply to you when it suits you and screw everyone else. How come I don't have the same problems you do? We play the same class, yet I can raid and you claim you can't. That IS a you problem. You see, some people have this figured out; you are part of the group that doesn't. Yes, Anet will make changes and meta will shift, but that's not going to change how people who play optimal teams think; they are still going to want to have optimal classes. Choose well.

    @Anchoku.8142 said:
    @Obtena.7952
    "Play how you want" really means "Play according to the game's rules," not total anarchy.

    Sure, but we don't have total anarchy. There is a system in place and it allows players to play exactly how they want. If it wasn't according to the games rules, it wouldn't work like it does; it would be hard coded to team people through the game's rules, not the people's. Maybe it should have been, but then again, I wan't to play with my friends, not randomly selected players from a pool the game decides. Allowing players choice has and still is a major selling point of this game. I doubt that's going to change because some people can't figure out how to get teams with classes they want to play.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • @Obtena.7952 said:

    No, what's pathetic is that you think you should simply be able to join whatever team you want, irregardless of how the people in that team want to play. For some reason, you think play how you want ideal should only apply to you when it suits you and screw everyone else. How come I don't have the same problems you do? We play the same class, yet I can raid and you claim you can't. That IS a you problem. You see, some people have this figured out; you are part of the group that doesn't. Yes, Anet will make changes and meta will shift, but that's not going to change how people who play optimal teams think; they are still going to want to have optimal classes. Choose well.

    again pathetic dont make it about me this profession/necromancer forums NOT player/dragonfury forums
    again you go with the idea that i wanted to join them or i impose myself on them i did told that at first i saw a LFG for a raid say full W6 20+ qadim KP \ 1 DPS and i have more than 20 qadim KP and i am a dps so i join them they didnt say we dont want necro at the LFG because the commander of the squad thought that its well known fact that no necro is allowed in raids
    and then they kick me and the conversation started
    that why you see me saying show me qadim to see if he have more KP than me and he didnt
    again dont make it about me this profession/necromancer forums NOT player/dragonfury forums please i hope you understand that

  • Jeknar.6184Jeknar.6184 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I don't know why your images have a huge blank part, but w/e...

    I might be outdated, but don't people used to run certain bosses with multiple scourge for epidemic cleave? Pretty sure I did it on Vale Guardian, Sabetha, Slothasor, Trio, Xera, Mursaat Overseer and Soulless Horror (Never did anything past River of Souls or Wing 6)

    Ferguson's Crossing Mithril Raider (Rank 4444) - PvP Phoenix (Rank 72) - 29k Achievment Points
    Calamis Fatima / Kawagima / Hanna Flintlocke / Sabetha Deadeye

  • DragonFury.6243DragonFury.6243 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2018

    @Jeknar.6184 said:
    I don't know why your images have a huge blank part, but w/e...

    I might be outdated, but don't people used to run certain bosses with multiple scourge for epidemic cleave? Pretty sure I did it on Vale Guardian, Sabetha, Slothasor, Trio, Xera, Mursaat Overseer and Soulless Horror (Never did anything past River of Souls or Wing 6)

    yes but they nerf epidemic by 50% 9 patches ago
    Game Update Notes: July 10, 2018

  • Sephylon.4938Sephylon.4938 Member ✭✭✭✭

    more of a 75% nerf in practice. Durations of condis applies by epi is cut in half so what happens is epi out will lose 50% of the duration, and epi in will lose another 50% meaning essentially the condis of epi bouncing is only 25% of the original condis.

    I am a giant tomato filled with love. I have come to sell you a house made out of pancakes.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @DragonFury.6243 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @DragonFury.6243 said:
    words mean nothing without actions i hope you learn this at least

    So true ... you should take your own advice: What actions has Anet done in the history of this game that makes you think what I've said is incorrect? My observations are based on the game history and Anet's approach to developing it; yours are not. I don't have these problems you do ... I understand how the game works and taken that into account when doing content with Necro. It's not the game that should accommodate you, it's that you need to adjust to the game.

    The fact is that you experience this because of the way the game is designed and you have little appreciation for it. You want to play how you want while ignoring how others want to play. It's not something that missing or forgotten in the game that causes this; the design of the game results in favoured classes for people that want to play optimally.

    Bottomline is that you need to learn how to team as a Necro. yes, it's an extra step other classes don't frequently encounter; that's just the nature of the class. Once you figure it out (and its the same for ALL classes), you don't have these problems. IIRC, this isn't the first time you've been told what you need to do to either so honestly, if you aren't willing to take people's advice that know what they are doing and just complain the game doesn't cater to your exacting whim, that's your fault.

    again you make this about me and that is pathetic

    No, what's pathetic is that you think you should simply be able to join whatever team you want, irregardless of how the people in that team want to play. For some reason, you think play how you want ideal should only apply to you when it suits you and screw everyone else. How come I don't have the same problems you do? We play the same class, yet I can raid and you claim you can't. That IS a you problem. You see, some people have this figured out; you are part of the group that doesn't. Yes, Anet will make changes and meta will shift, but that's not going to change how people who play optimal teams think; they are still going to want to have optimal classes. Choose well.

    @Anchoku.8142 said:
    @Obtena.7952
    "Play how you want" really means "Play according to the game's rules," not total anarchy.

    Sure, but we don't have total anarchy. There is a system in place and it allows players to play exactly how they want. If it wasn't according to the games rules, it wouldn't work like it does; it would be hard coded to team people through the game's rules, not the people's. Maybe it should have been, but then again, I wan't to play with my friends, not randomly selected players from a pool the game decides. Allowing players choice has and still is a major selling point of this game. I doubt that's going to change because some people can't figure out how to get teams with classes they want to play.

    Personally and this is my 2 cents: If a person who can really play their class and knows how to do the raid cannot get into a raid because the class is too situational that in most cases its not desired, its the class not the person who plays said class. It is one thing to say the person dies repeatedly and doesn't understand the raid, and its another to say they play optimally and still the class is too situational, and too limited with the tools that its more likely to be rejected over any other class which performs better on any raid.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    In my opinion the biggest issue is choice.

    In raids necros are still sub par on a lot of stuff, and they are sub par in dps.

    Take for instance Druids.

    Druids are a good example of sacrificing dps to be a healer, its a choice of build, and they can go full dps.

    Necromancers are still weaker in both than most classes, because the support is a offensive one, and it under performs in raids.
    It works well in fractals because of boons to corrupt, but without boons to corrupt, it just isn't worth having a scourge for that.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭

    As long as shaving time off a raid is rewarded, max group dps will be a concern.

    Arenanet could easily set a minimum raid time sequence before the rewards are handed out making min-maxing dps more of an amusement than a gold/hour game. Lots of event chains have start-timers between them.

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 24, 2018

    First part : Reaper
    Pros : self might stack, self (perma)quickness, strong CC, easy to play, robust. I really love reaper in open world, and WvW, for these reasons.
    Cons :
    Supports can't "heal life force" while in Death Shroud. You can lose all your DPS if you take dmg while in shroud (all ferocity bonus, Strength of Undeath, etc), and it arrives often.
    "Close to Death" useless half the fight (like elem BttH that's right), as the #5 Death Shroud (except for CC of course)
    May be Benchmark is 30k (10% less than others) but in condition it's 17k at very best, ~20% less.

    It's effective may be in Fractals PUG, where you can't give too much confidence to random chrono/support, squishy weaver, etc; and even that I can easily double the dmg burst with a DH or easier with a weaver.
    In raids, no.
    Until updates changes meta, AND until people judge about classes and build by their own and not by outdated website etc, reaper is not viable.

    Second part : commander/players do what they want. If they want full daredevil compo, 200KP, 300 Li, 25 gummy bears, 25$ paypal; okai. Make your own group if you don't respect the conditions.

  • @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    First part : Reaper
    Pros : self might stack, self (perma)quickness, strong CC, easy to play, robust. I really love reaper in open world, and WvW, for these reasons.
    Cons :
    Supports can't "heal life force" while in Death Shroud. You can lose all your DPS if you take dmg while in shroud (all ferocity bonus, Strength of Undeath, etc), and it arrives often.
    "Close to Death" useless half the fight (like elem BttH that's right), as the #5 Death Shroud (except for CC of course)
    May be Benchmark is 30k (10% less than others) but in condition it's 17k at very best, ~20% less.

    It's effective may be in Fractals PUG, where you can't give too much confidence to random chrono/support, squishy weaver, etc; and even that I can easily double the dmg burst with a DH or easier with a weaver.
    In raids, no.
    Until updates changes meta, AND until people judge about classes and build by their own and not by outdated website etc, reaper is not viable.

    Second part : commander/players do what they want. If they want full daredevil compo, 200KP, 300 Li, 25 gummy bears, 25$ paypal; okai. Make your own group if you don't respect the conditions.

    first i agree but what about scourge
    second i agree but the commander/players wanted 20kp and a dps so i joined but the commander/players think its well known fact that no necro is allowed in raids they didnt say no necro but think that every one knows that
    and as a necro that make me cringe

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kain Francois.4328 said:
    🅱️eteran raider here. I own all 3 sets of legendary armor.

    Yes, it is true some Necros hae kitten DPS. It's hard to play, and few people try to master it.

    However, it's an extremely useful class. Despite benchmarking only 2k DPS lower than a holosmith (big deal...), a Necromancer brings tons of great utility. Barrier, Cleanses, Epi, etc... If you can bite the bullet for a slight further DPS loss then you can take Blood Magic, which greatly increases sustain of the team as well as brings some of THE best revives in the game.

    I think Necromancer is a very good class to take in raids. Sometimes 4DPS + 1 Support-y DPS is better than 5DPS.

    In which patch are you playing that necro is only 2-3k below. Some test server patch in the future?

    I guess you are referring to that power reaper build, that brings absolutely nothing but a little bit of cc to the group.
    Not to mention that it's far more conditional than power engi.

    But you are describing scourge, which is 6k DPS behind engineer.

    And the sustain you get from bloodmagic isn't even mentionable. Round about 300 heal per second if everyone is able to do one attack every half second.
    That's not even a regeneration tick.

    Only the revives are good. But who needs that in decent or good groups?

  • @Nimon.7840 said:

    But you are describing scourge, which is 6k DPS behind engineer.

    Scourge is a Support spec technically so being 6k being a full dps build isnt really that bad

  • Sephylon.4938Sephylon.4938 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mini Crinny.6190 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    But you are describing scourge, which is 6k DPS behind engineer.

    Scourge is a Support spec technically so being 6k being a full dps build isnt really that bad

    It can be built as a support but the one listed on sc is a pure dps build that gives barriers now and again, also its 6k dps from the weakest build of another class.

    I am a giant tomato filled with love. I have come to sell you a house made out of pancakes.

  • It's really hard to play my favorite class (reaper) in all forms of the game. They suck at pvp, they suck at raiding, they suck at fractals. I always get called out for being a Reaper if I manage to get into a raid or fractal and something goes wrong. It's like playing Shaman all over again in WoW.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mini Crinny.6190 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    But you are describing scourge, which is 6k DPS behind engineer.

    Scourge is a Support spec technically so being 6k being a full dps build isnt really that bad

    Any spec that fart boons could be described as support as well, it doesn't mean that despite their support they are limited in their dps, I'd even say that they would riot if it was the case. Look, DE have great options to give a lot of boons would you imagine them being 6k behind an average "dps" build when using their dps traits like the scourge do?

    The reality is that the dps output of the scourge is tied to it's ability to corrupt boons and transfert condition and that just doesn't work in PvE end game content because mobs with large amount of vigor, aegis or even regen that are corrupted into damaging conditions don't exist in game. Now, even if bosses ended up having those boons, the mesmer would still remove them faster than the necromancer could due to their boon hate on sword auto. As for transfering condition, the rare burst of condition that the characters receive in end game content don't really help this aspect to shine as well.

    The condi scourge is designed to be strong in boon heavy area, just like the core condi necromancer or the reaper. If PvE was an ideal environment for the necromancer, it would be hell for other professions and ANet couldn't begin to end the complaints about how unfair the game is and how necromancer is way to strong in PvE. The right choice should obviously be to developpe other mean of offense for the necromancer but, the boon meta is so rampant is sPvP/WvW that ANet just can't help trying to focus more and more on the counters to this meta, pushing the necromancer always on the edge of PvE while making it "to" strong against players.

    Boons are overflowing in game and nobody care about them, there are even player that think those boons are "weak". However, as soon as conditions are overflowing (the main consequences of boon corruption) people cry about how cancerous they are.

    With the current system, if you disregard boon corruption and give the scourge enough damage to be competitive in PvE, he become way to strong in PvP, while the opposite is right if you take boon corruption into account. It's not difficult to understand that there is an issue with the necromancers tools that create a gap in performance based on the gamemode. The best solution would probably be to remove boon corruption (replace it by simple boon ripping) from the game and give the necromancer normalized way to deal damage. That said, neither a large part of the necromancer community nor ANet would be willing to do so.

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Anchoku.8142 said:
    @Obtena.7952
    "Play how you want" really means "Play according to the game's rules," not total anarchy.

    Arenanet set up the mechanics for instanced content and the mechanics for grouping. There are many other examples of group PvE in the MMO industry, both good and bad, to use as examples. They chose to give players a great deal of control over grouping and designed the encounters. If that results in profession and build exclusion, that is on them and, if raiding is a controversial topic, it is because of Arenanet's design approach.

    Feel free to raid, not raid, change your main profession, flame your raid group members, train your raid group members, never buy gems, or play another game. Those are your rights.

    Should Arenanet think raids are not quite what they envisioned, they have the right to change the rules. They did that with ascended gear, for example, opening it up for people who play competitive modes and fractals instead of having it having it be PvE-only. However, changing a bunch of content could be more work than just changing a profession.

    Reaper was introduced to give Necro power-cleave. Scourge gave group support. Both were OP at some point due to bugs and unintended exploits and are now thoroughly nerfed out of meta. On the other hand, both are good for way-off-meta groups.

    That is one reason to consider automated grouping: If a raider was faced with a real chance of off-meta builds and group comp, Necro with its steady dps up-time might not seem so bad.

    ArenaNet only deserves half the blame. The preferences for grouped content are totally made up by the people who can choose to include a Necromancer or not include one. This is why it is hard to convince ANet to just bump DPS to solve the situation, the dps requirement is an artificial creation not related to game balance but a desired efficiency level. Since the problem is not 100% mechanical balance it will always be hard to convince ANet of the need to change the balance of the profession. The truth is, Necromancer can do most of the end game content. Plenty of Necromancer players report as much when they get to play on a team.

    Thus to some degree, the community itself is also at fault as they decide on their own what is an acceptable power level.

    @Farkon.2170 said:
    It's really hard to play my favorite class (reaper) in all forms of the game. They suck at pvp, they suck at raiding, they suck at fractals. I always get called out for being a Reaper if I manage to get into a raid or fractal and something goes wrong. It's like playing Shaman all over again in WoW.

    Really? They suck at PvP. Really?

  • Sephylon.4938Sephylon.4938 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @Farkon.2170 said:
    It's really hard to play my favorite class (reaper) in all forms of the game. They suck at pvp, they suck at raiding, they suck at fractals. I always get called out for being a Reaper if I manage to get into a raid or fractal and something goes wrong. It's like playing Shaman all over again in WoW.

    Really? They suck at PvP. Really?

    Play 1 with out a pocket healer and watch it drop like a rock

    I am a giant tomato filled with love. I have come to sell you a house made out of pancakes.

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