thieves and marked mechanic

since our main defensive and stealth access usage has been endangered patch after patch

its time for devs to give defensive boons access to thieves via traits and skills,

its time for us to have a reliable access to protection, stability and resistance

i daresay remove stealth, but give us those boons

I'd rather see other classes have less reliable access to defensive boons.

I do like the notion of removing stealth though... And give us some form of compensation in return. It won't happen, but it'd be interesting.

Problem is thief would basically just turn into a more agile Warrior at that point, unless you come up with a completely new class mechanic.

guess your mainly talking WvW here as i am not aware of a recent change to stealth in spvp.stealth reliant build are pretty vulnerable while visible wich means it is allways a very onesided fight. either they can use their invisibility for a good ambush / hit and stealth play or they get their stealth denied and are kind of a target golem. recent change again handed out more reveal in WvW but it wont really change much of the fights because the stealth reliant thieves still do not have more staying power in their revealed time.if they change our 'during stealth' traits like most in SA or hidden killer (maybe a nerfed to 50% version) to 'while stealthed or revealed' that could turn out interesting as you then more likely would fight with frequent reveal application. however outside of those new marked buffs this would give them all their invisibility + sustain while choosing to attack..whatever you do its either going to be useless or too strong in a certain area. the only way to balance stealth in every way is severly limit it and build the professions with that in mind, but the adjustments to thief that would be needed then .. well guess its less work to make a new profession as the compensation / replacements to all those stealth traits / stealth attacks / stealth skills could easily make currently non stealth thieves way too OP.

The marked function destroys the unique stealth ability Skill 1 function like backstep, sb1, p1 etc. What would a mesmer says if mark not allowe to create clones, engi no tools , ele no element Switch. It is so lame to just drop a function like Mark and complety destroy a class mechanic instead of doing a propper balance.... I am so disappointed from the meh meh nerf thief Community since years without even trying to unterstand the class and fight it successfully and anet just nerf nerf nerf teef to the ground... I mean reveal was already the wrong way to Go

They could make Steal/Mark have on-click and channeled choice to use normally or go into stealth mode but you can only channel out of it or use Steal/Mark on-click to open up with. Then Shadow Arts can apply it's modifiers to some part of the duration around shadowsteps/ports/leaps or by Black Powder or smoke fields or something. Everything sounds like it's trading one problem for another of the same sort though.

@Raiden The Beast.3016 said:The marked function destroys the unique stealth ability Skill 1 function like backstep, sb1, p1 etc. What would a mesmer says if mark not allowe to create clones, engi no tools , ele no element Switch. It is so lame to just drop a function like Mark and complety destroy a class mechanic instead of doing a propper balance.... I am so disappointed from the meh meh nerf thief Community since years without even trying to unterstand the class and fight it successfully and anet just nerf nerf nerf teef to the ground... I mean reveal was already the wrong way to Go

It doesn't destroy the unique stealth abilities. You still have 2 seconds after stealthing to use the ability. It may have not been the most elegant solution to perma-stealth and Anet should have probably approached things differently, but let's not be misleading here. Also it's funny that you mention ele, because no element switching would be more comparable to no stealth attacks + no steal + no weapon swap at the same time. Element switching is basically both ele's entire profession mechanic and their weapon swap baked into one thing. Ironically, elementalist has had a direct counter to its profession mechanic for the longest time, so bringing it up as an example is laughable. Chill makes attunements recharge 66% slower, while it does nothing to affect normal weapon swaps.

@Ganathar.4956 said:

@Raiden The Beast.3016 said:The marked function destroys the unique stealth ability Skill 1 function like backstep, sb1, p1 etc. What would a mesmer says if mark not allowe to create clones, engi no tools , ele no element Switch. It is so lame to just drop a function like Mark and complety destroy a class mechanic instead of doing a propper balance.... I am so disappointed from the meh meh nerf thief Community since years without even trying to unterstand the class and fight it successfully and anet just nerf nerf nerf teef to the ground... I mean reveal was already the wrong way to Go

It may have not been the most elegant solution to perma-stealth and Anet should have probably approached things differently,Agree

...but let's not be misleading here.No missleading here

Also it's funny that you mention ele, ...Agree, let me Change my wording into: general other Core mechanics like mes clone spam...

For me anti stealth is okay, if anet gives us other ways to compete vs holo gozillas, sb unlimited boon gods, (35k one hits in wvw), spell FC spam and godlike survivability. In PvP we somehow have our place with Decap and +1 even it is boring after years w/o any options. But with the OPnes in wvw w/o stealth it is nearly impossible to compete vs other classes on same Skill level.

@"Oldgrimm.8521" said:since our main defensive and stealth access usage has been endangered patch after patch

its time for devs to give defensive boons access to thieves via traits and skills,

its time for us to have a reliable access to protection, stability and resistance

i daresay remove stealth, but give us those boons

For real,The other night I was winning a 1v5 on a core backstab build. Popped shadow refugee for secure stomp and to reposition, a sentry reveals me, I get the stomp but now am just fucked and dead.

@"Oldgrimm.8521" said:since our main defensive and stealth access usage has been endangered patch after patch

its time for devs to give defensive boons access to thieves via traits and skills,

its time for us to have a reliable access to protection, stability and resistance

i daresay remove stealth, but give us those boonsIs there a marked mechanic in sPvP and PvE? Or does the marked mechanic cover 100% of the WvW battlefield?

I guess not.

So why do you want buffs to compensate a mechanic that is easy to avoid and that barely brings your broken spec in line in a very limited area of the game while it's irrelevant everywhere else? To be even stronger and more annoying to others wherever there is no marked mechanic?

Besides that: Everyone has to deal with that mechanic. Everyone can be spotted. And no one is as mobile as your class when being spotted!

Defensive boons on top of stealth. Ridiculous! Play daredevil or acro S/D if you have trouble surviving in WvW!

@KrHome.1920 said:And no one is as mobile as your class when being spotted!Mirage and Soulbeast say hi. And that's assuming daredevil or core; warrior, DH and rev can catch and down a permastealth DE easily when it's marked.Defensive boons on top of stealth. Ridiculous!Soulbeast/Druid, Scrapper/Holo say hi. They get defensive boons and stealth thrown in for free, so why shouldn't thief get a little access to protection?

@"Oldgrimm.8521" said:since our main defensive and stealth access usage has been endangered patch after patch

its time for devs to give defensive boons access to thieves via traits and skills,

its time for us to have a reliable access to protection, stability and resistance

i daresay remove stealth, but give us those boonsIs there a marked mechanic in sPvP and PvE? Or does the marked mechanic cover 100% of the WvW battlefield?

While EVERYONE has to deal with this new mechanicc , no other classes have utilities and defenses based on time in stealth. No other class loses condition cleanses with this change. No other class loses INI regain with this change. No other class loses health regen and damage mitigation with this change. If on being revealed via this mechanic say the duration of protection , regen , or number of cleanses drop you have an arguement. Otherwise you compare apples to oranges.

That said I am not fundamentally opposed to the nature OF these changes but do think some tweaks to SA in order such as allowing for a lingering effect on being revealed via these mechanics much like Hidden Killer allows. As example if I stealth and popped out after 2 seconds , I would still ge 2 seconds anti crit protection added if I am traited CIS. I would get my second cleanse 2 seconds after bing revealed etc.

@babazhook.6805 said:

@"Oldgrimm.8521" said:since our main defensive and stealth access usage has been endangered patch after patch

its time for devs to give defensive boons access to thieves via traits and skills,

its time for us to have a reliable access to protection, stability and resistance

i daresay remove stealth, but give us those boonsIs there a marked mechanic in sPvP and PvE? Or does the marked mechanic cover 100% of the WvW battlefield?

wow that would be pretty insane on CIS.. i mean in that 5s reveal from mark oke, but outside of mark that would be godmode pretty much. the effect would need to change then IMO.

@MUDse.7623 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@"Oldgrimm.8521" said:since our main defensive and stealth access usage has been endangered patch after patch

its time for devs to give defensive boons access to thieves via traits and skills,

its time for us to have a reliable access to protection, stability and resistance

i daresay remove stealth, but give us those boonsIs there a marked mechanic in sPvP and PvE? Or does the marked mechanic cover 100% of the WvW battlefield?

Agreed, although even now I think the effect is absolutely disgusting considering a large portion of how to deal with SA thief stealth is to bomb the area, and Rejuv is pretty redundant with M7.

I'll second the fact SA needs to change, but I think it should come from on-stealth and not afterwards. It's supposed to be a defensive line akin to Acrobatics, and stealth is best-kept as a defensive/setup (prerequisite to burst) mechanic for the thief.

Really though, the Spotted/Revealed effect should probably be after 4s to let a timed-out stealth not force reveal if for example, the target blocks or runs an immunity like blur/distortion/Renewed Focus. 3s would be better if they went through and changed SA to not extend the duration of stealth as well.

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@"Oldgrimm.8521" said:since our main defensive and stealth access usage has been endangered patch after patch

its time for devs to give defensive boons access to thieves via traits and skills,

its time for us to have a reliable access to protection, stability and resistance

i daresay remove stealth, but give us those boonsIs there a marked mechanic in sPvP and PvE? Or does the marked mechanic cover 100% of the WvW battlefield?

That Rejuv might be redundant with M7 is really moot. These traitlines have to be functional outside traiting up an elite spec. It NOT redundant If I am core and IF it redundant should I decide I am taking M7 then it means I can take something else over Rejuv.

There a reason some DE specs were able to drop TR in their builds and that because of the REDUNDANCY of INI gain via Mercy and m7. Remove that redundancy and TR becomes a must have traitline.

As to extended stealth on traiting SA, it should remain. it IS the stealth line after all and I see no reason that those who do not trait the STEALTH line should have the same stealth access.

And the last time a SA build was played so much without DE was before HoT. The interaction is disgusting, and that's all I commented on. But if I really need to extrapolate the obvious here: People talk so much about wanting more options to help refund/fix initiative outside of Trickery... and this is the kind of problem which would arise if it were to be allowed; Rejuv would just be redundant with some other line and CiS taken for crit immunity with SA, which is exactly what I said was unhealthy as bombing the area it's SA's/stealth's designed-counter in general.

Sure, it is the stealth line, but that doesn't mean duration needs an extension per se. Duration extension is lazy and quite frankly promotes lazy play for the most part. If stealth per initiative as a measure of effect:resource:time is the concern, then it could just be combined with Rejuv into the current minor trait and yield initiative when gaining stealth. Then Rejuv can be buffed into a bulk heal when entering stealth, providing sustain to help extend a fight just as the traits do now. This also accommodates for a small amount of burst negation like the current iteration of CiS without being downright unhealthy, and enables CiS to be fully reworked into something totally different. There are many possibilities - I only suggested they make Spotted activate on 3s for consistency's sake if they were to remove the stealth extension from SA as part of a greater rework, nothing more.

@DeceiverX.8361 said:And the last time a SA build was played so much without DE was before HoT. The interaction is disgusting, and that's all I commented on. But if I really need to extrapolate the obvious here: People talk so much about wanting more options to help refund/fix initiative outside of Trickery... and this is the kind of problem which would arise if it were to be allowed; Rejuv would just be redundant with some other line and CiS taken for crit immunity with SA, which is exactly what I said was unhealthy as bombing the area it's SA's/stealth's designed-counter in general.

Sure, it is the stealth line, but that doesn't mean duration needs an extension per se. Duration extension is lazy and quite frankly promotes lazy play for the most part. If stealth per initiative as a measure of effect:resource:time is the concern, then it could just be combined with Rejuv into the current minor trait and yield initiative when gaining stealth. Then Rejuv can be buffed into a bulk heal when entering stealth, providing sustain to help extend a fight just as the traits do now. This also accommodates for a small amount of burst negation like the current iteration of CiS without being downright unhealthy, and enables CiS to be fully reworked into something totally different. There are many possibilities - I only suggested they make Spotted activate on 3s for consistency's sake if they were to remove the stealth extension from SA as part of a greater rework, nothing more.

The issue with the SA line is not the added second it allows in stealth. The issue with stealth is it being stacked consecutively. If all stealth durations had a base of 4 seconds and it could not be chained together one after the other, there would not be any complaints about that 4 second base. Duration at 3 is barely enough which is why builds that do not use SA need to stack such as happened with d/p and the leaps or just forgo it entirely as integral to their build (s/x builds , staff builds). That one second add to stealth out of SA was there since day one and I do not recall you complaining about it until DE rifle rolled out.

Other classes that use stealth generally rely on it just for target drop. Thief has those stealth attacks and while a stealth attack via the Rifle does not require much setup time, those others do and I think it perfectly reasonable that a person that decides to trait SA can have one added second to setup that stealth attack over a build not taking SA. You remain fixated and biased against the Rifle spec and in so doing are intent on seeing every other build that might use the line suffer for it.

Now I have suggested my own fixes to the SA line. As example I would like to see Shadows Embrace swapped with Meld With Shadows, this making the one second add a choice for which a further sacrifice must be made and I have suggested that WHEN already stealthed all added stealth adds lose an extra second. So I am am traited Smeld and am already stealthed Via a dodge on rifle and use Blinding powder while in stealth the powder adds 3 seconds rather then 4. If I am not traited Smeld that BP is now only a 2 second add. This small adjustment would go a long ways towards ending stealth stacking and if not enough can see another second dropped after it tested so that BP with smeld adds 2 more seconds and without only adds a single second.

My issue with this change is that if I’m at a sentry or near enemy tower I get marked and basically can’t time my attacks in the 2-4 second mark. This reduces my single use stealth uptime by 50% and means if I miss a stealth attack—even in the 2 second window—I get revealed.

I’m not perma stealth so this really annoys me because it makes engaging a class with built in reveals and high AoE DPS suicide. Specifically, Holo. He chases me, reveals me and when I try to use stealth to get some distance I get revealed.

Honestly, having the mechanic is fine more generally. I don’t like perma stealth either. But it should have been a reveal after 6 seconds or even after 4 seconds. Two seconds is too short for being able to fight against classes with short cooldown reveals.

What I can't understand is why 2 seconds and not 3. Why not at the very least the full stealth time of untraited stealth.. maybe I want my full normal 3 second stealth to gain some distance or reposition... I don't mind this new mechanic. It adds strategy and the need to stay on your toes more in enemy territory. But needs to be 3sec not 2.

Edit: the problem is perma stealth builds that can stack and chain stealth skills together in such a way that they can remain almost indefinitely in stealth.. so why punish ppl that don't stack stealth but still need those full 3-4 second stealth ups for strategy...

Come to think of it, this was a very bad global implementation for a very specific build.

"1 build OP? Having too much fun? Solution, no one gets to have fun!" - anet