Can we plz get rid of sick em and attack of opportunity? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Can we plz get rid of sick em and attack of opportunity?

Zero.3871Zero.3871 Member ✭✭✭

Soulbeast dmg buffs when melted with pet:

1.) Sick em gives 40 % dmg increase for EVERY skill you use for 10 seconds.
2.) attack of opportunity by GS2: gives you 25 % dmg on the next attack. you can get this buff by using GS2 (4 sec cd).

both dmg multiplicators due to absurd dmg Spikes of rangers that are beyond everything that EVER existed in the game. e.g. 10k+ AA on LB for 10 seconds. both dmg multiplicators were introduced to the game as dmg modifiers for PETS. not for the ranger himself.

and i am tired of trying to dodge a "burst skill" that is in fact an AA from LB or getting nuked with 30k+ dmg from a skill that has 4 sec cd. its on the same broken Level like condi Mirage.

<1

Comments

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I don't think it's on same level although the damage can be high and on a short cd. They are highly telegraphed or at least predictable in rotation although I will say DE's are easier to deal with (for me) than a boonbeast version due to sustain but they are not impossible to kill. Outside of boonbuilds this is pretty much a one trick pony built for dmg.

  • Jeknar.6184Jeknar.6184 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @gitflap.9031 said:
    What next? My pitiful staff ele?

    NeRf mEtEoR ShOwEr

    Ferguson's Crossing Mithril Squire (Rank 5001) - PvP Phoenix (Rank 72) - 30k Achievement Points
    Exalted Kawagima, Calamis Fatima, Hanna Flintlocke, Suzuhara Suzuka, Sally Furious Ant, Sabetha Deadeye, Bjarl of Souls, Lilian Mistwalker, Kelvena Riverstream, Zallha Wildhunt

  • @gitflap.9031 said:
    Alright...line in the kitten sand. ANet, you seem to be listening to whiny millennials more & more & changing the game mechanics to appease their peenging. Please stop. You've screwed the game up giving farmers more & more easy rewards, leading to the pitiful blob culture we currently suffer through. You've nerfed stealth so much to pacify deadeye haters that scouting on my thief has become pointless. You've nerfed defensive siege so much..that blah blah blah. Honestly, do you have so little faith in your ability to deliver a fun, balanced game mode? Have some courage. These guys are not worth your time so please, please stop pandering to them. I mean, Rangers now. kitten. What next? My pitiful staff ele?

    For a second I was like "this guy is telling the truth". Then I lost you when you said "You've nerfed defensive siege so much..that blah blah blah." You lost all your credibility in your post. A player that supports stronger defensive siege is the worst thing I can ever hear! What the hell are you talking about? P.S. You are complaining that Anet is the reason behind people blobbing….. Sir, stronger defensive siege is the effin MAJOR factor making people to blob.... seriously dude, what the heck are you talking about:??!!

    Now it is my turn to turn the table on you: Anet, please don't listen to opinions like @gitflap.9031 supporting stronger defensive siege!!

  • solution is to not roam in wvw unfortunately, since someone in anet seems to think this is a good idea.

    The horror...…….the horror...…….the horror...…….

  • @Zero.3871 said:
    Soulbeast dmg buffs when melted with pet:

    1.) Sick em gives 40 % dmg increase for EVERY skill you use for 10 seconds.
    2.) attack of opportunity by GS2: gives you 25 % dmg on the next attack. you can get this buff by using GS2 (4 sec cd).

    both dmg multiplicators due to absurd dmg Spikes of rangers that are beyond everything that EVER existed in the game. e.g. 10k+ AA on LB for 10 seconds. both dmg multiplicators were introduced to the game as dmg modifiers for PETS. not for the ranger himself.

    and i am tired of trying to dodge a "burst skill" that is in fact an AA from LB or getting nuked with 30k+ dmg from a skill that has 4 sec cd. its on the same broken Level like condi Mirage.

    Hahahahaha .... this is my only reaction for your saying ...
    First of all in sPVP and WvW Sick ' EM! doesn't give 40% damage, mostly 25%, it was tested already.
    Second : A ranger who can do that damage you talked about, 30k is definitely Zerk one. This means if you manage to dodge him he will be eaten in a second too.
    The difference between Soulbeas zerk and Mesmer or Deadeye zerk is that Mesmer and Thief can just vanish/run away easily and Ranger can't. Ranger doesn't have so many dodges and blocks like Thief and Mesmer ...
    And third ... Sick ' EM! it is so OP, that no Top ranger from sPVP or WvW is using it ... It is not strange?
    Ofc, when some good ranger want some fun, and he is near a gate of his tower, or in a good party, he can use zerk/one shot kill build (even it is not one shot like the one of mesmer of thief), but this is rare, instead you can see on every map of WvW and in sPVP a lots of One Shot thief and mesmer.

  • Shadowcat.2680Shadowcat.2680 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 20, 2018

    @Zero.3871 said:
    e.g. 10k+ AA on LB for 10 seconds. both dmg multiplicators were introduced to the game as dmg modifiers for PETS. not for the ranger himself.
    and i am tired of trying to dodge a "burst skill" that is in fact an AA from LB or getting nuked with 30k+ dmg from a skill that has 4 sec cd.

    These numbers (30k+ maul and 10k+ AA lb) don't happen for every soulbeast that uses the two skills you're complaining about. To get those numbers, a soulbeast runs MM/BM, stacking the dmg modifiers from MM. An overhaul of MM is something Anet should do at some point. Its minors are trash; soulbeasts run it for Remorseless and Moment of Clarity. One simple change Anet could do to curtail the dmg modifiers without hurting core ranger would be making it so MoC's 50% doesn't stack with the 25% from the soulbeast version of Maul. As the traits/skills work now, there's 25% from Attack of Opportunity (Maul), 25% from Remorseless, 40% from soulbeast's Sic 'Em, and 50% from MoC, adding up to 140% for an attack.

  • InsaneQR.7412InsaneQR.7412 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I personally think too that these thibgs beed to change. Not because i want to pull low numbers on ranger but rather that i think the modifiers are boring and they cripple skill design in certain aspects.
    Best example is Whirlibg defense. It hits like nothing else in the game just due to the modifiers although warrior has the higher dmg modifier on Whirlibg Axe.
    And thats also why WD stays as immobile and static as is.
    Attack of opportunity should be more prominent in ranger but rather a rolling thunder thibg instead of burst IMO to improve dmg in the long run but prevent the huge burst.
    Siccem should just work differently. AoE reveal, quickness to pet and allies (i know quickness bug needs a fix) low CD and maybe the abbility to proc a lesser version via traits.
    This would give more consistency and less bursty but still would give opportunity for higher dmg output and utility.

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I would be okay with Sic 'Em changing if it got replaced with something actually interesting that brings solid utility. Like a big leap with a reveal so it can help with pets sticking to the targets too.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zero.3871 said:
    Soulbeast dmg buffs when melted with pet:

    1.) Sick em gives 40 % dmg increase for EVERY skill you use for 10 seconds.
    2.) attack of opportunity by GS2: gives you 25 % dmg on the next attack. you can get this buff by using GS2 (4 sec cd).

    both dmg multiplicators due to absurd dmg Spikes of rangers that are beyond everything that EVER existed in the game. e.g. 10k+ AA on LB for 10 seconds. both dmg multiplicators were introduced to the game as dmg modifiers for PETS. not for the ranger himself.

    and i am tired of trying to dodge a "burst skill" that is in fact an AA from LB or getting nuked with 30k+ dmg from a skill that has 4 sec cd. its on the same broken Level like condi Mirage.

    Are you looking tone down damage modifiers and output on all professions? Or is this just limited to ranger, and your honorable mention of mesmer?

  • Klypto.1703Klypto.1703 Member ✭✭✭

    Nerf everything we are almost out of 2018 to make this the year of nerfage. What we really need to nerf though is that endure pain it needs to be nerfed by making it active with no duration as long as you are marked. That will surely make them warriors afraid to come get marked for sure.

  • Zero.3871Zero.3871 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 21, 2018

    @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

    @Zero.3871 said:
    Soulbeast dmg buffs when melted with pet:

    1.) Sick em gives 40 % dmg increase for EVERY skill you use for 10 seconds.
    2.) attack of opportunity by GS2: gives you 25 % dmg on the next attack. you can get this buff by using GS2 (4 sec cd).

    both dmg multiplicators due to absurd dmg Spikes of rangers that are beyond everything that EVER existed in the game. e.g. 10k+ AA on LB for 10 seconds. both dmg multiplicators were introduced to the game as dmg modifiers for PETS. not for the ranger himself.

    and i am tired of trying to dodge a "burst skill" that is in fact an AA from LB or getting nuked with 30k+ dmg from a skill that has 4 sec cd. its on the same broken Level like condi Mirage.

    Hahahahaha .... this is my only reaction for your saying ...
    First of all in sPVP and WvW Sick ' EM! doesn't give 40% damage, mostly 25%, it was tested already.
    Second : A ranger who can do that damage you talked about, 30k is definitely Zerk one. This means if you manage to dodge him he will be eaten in a second too.
    The difference between Soulbeas zerk and Mesmer or Deadeye zerk is that Mesmer and Thief can just vanish/run away easily and Ranger can't. Ranger doesn't have so many dodges and blocks like Thief and Mesmer ...
    And third ... Sick ' EM! it is so OP, that no Top ranger from sPVP or WvW is using it ... It is not strange?
    Ofc, when some good ranger want some fun, and he is near a gate of his tower, or in a good party, he can use zerk/one shot kill build (even it is not one shot like the one of mesmer of thief), but this is rare, instead you can see on every map of WvW and in sPVP a lots of One Shot thief and mesmer.

    the Problem is the high access to that 2 dmg modifiers. you say i should just "dodge" that. but what exactly should i dodge? with sick em nearly every skill becomes a massive burst for 10 sec Duration. its not just dodging 1 specific skill, you cant dodge 15 times in a row.

    same with GS2. this skill also grant his attack of opportunity when NOT successfully hit the enemy. you can cast it, push your Opponent and 4 sec later use GS2 WITH Bonus dmg. and if he dodge this, no problem, 4 seconds later you have the next try. in the first 8 seconds of a fight rangers can use it 3 times. i can only dodge 2 times. and while sick em is also up i cannot only dodge gs2 i have to dodge every attack of him to not insta die.

    you can also Play a more defensive build that can take a lot of dmg while using this dmg modifiers to hit with 15k instead of 30k. its still too much dmg gain from 1 skill.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    why do you necro roamers insist on everyone beeing as bad at solo roaming as you are? considering that most players are involved in group/zergfights one would think we would see as many threads to bring down necro/guard efficiency to ranger/thief level in that regard. but we dont as people either dont care or simply log on to something that is good at larger scale fights. but you necro solo roamers are very persistent.
    you turning protection into vuln has a greater effect than sic em at a lower cost as you can use your weapon skills for it instead of a utility. sic em is fine.
    if he remains on GS to do it every other second, then he is in melee with slow skills. you should be able to interrupt or put some pressure on him. not just dodge.

    read this, become a better player now.

  • Lower skilled players will always complain about high damage bursts. Remember when ppl in PvP forums complained about PP Thief on daily basis? It wasn't even funny anymore. Also stop comparing a one trick pony build to condi mesmer.

    Honestly I'm onboard with nerfing Sick em so people would just stop calling it op. They could nerf the damage portion or add drawbacks like the Warrior skill Frenzy used to have ages ago. Also - you don't need Sick em to oneshot people (at least in WvW).

  • Zero.3871Zero.3871 Member ✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    why do you necro roamers insist on everyone beeing as bad at solo roaming as you are? considering that most players are involved in group/zergfights one would think we would see as many threads to bring down necro/guard efficiency to ranger/thief level in that regard. but we dont as people either dont care or simply log on to something that is good at larger scale fights. but you necro solo roamers are very persistent.
    you turning protection into vuln has a greater effect than sic em at a lower cost as you can use your weapon skills for it instead of a utility. sic em is fine.
    if he remains on GS to do it every other second, then he is in melee with slow skills. you should be able to interrupt or put some pressure on him. not just dodge.

    you are obviously missing the Point of the Topic. it has Nothing to do with bad /good/or other Things that seems to make you salty.
    it is, it was, and it will ever be a Question of counterplay. this game had an Evolution of balancing over the past 6 years where for a long time Things only get buffed (never nerfed). and with pof this got even worse. the current meta relies on abusing max 2 Buttons on nearly every build to one shot everything. for some People like you Maybe this is fun because you can simply Group with other and oneshotting single Targets in 5 vs 1 or playing a heavy mobile/Stealth class to oneshot and retreat all the time. no skillrotation->noskill.

    oneshoots are still unhealthy for a game because it doesnt rely on skill. and like i already said @MUDse.7623 , you can dodge it one, or twice but when the one shoot is on a way lower cooldown than your defense than its just a Question of time until he hits you. and it doesnt Need more than ~10 seconds. while ranger can still use several invuls/blocks/evade Frames to stay alive long enough. Maybe to use that skill they loose 3-4k dmg on their hits but there is no difference between getting hit by 33 K dmg or getting hit by 29k dmg.

    i just want a game where People have to Play a skillrotation to win fights. and not just ganking with those oneshot builds for 30k+ hits by pressing 2 buttons against a target that already used dodges to evade other oneshot skills.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 21, 2018

    @Zero.3871 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    why do you necro roamers insist on everyone beeing as bad at solo roaming as you are? considering that most players are involved in group/zergfights one would think we would see as many threads to bring down necro/guard efficiency to ranger/thief level in that regard. but we dont as people either dont care or simply log on to something that is good at larger scale fights. but you necro solo roamers are very persistent.
    you turning protection into vuln has a greater effect than sic em at a lower cost as you can use your weapon skills for it instead of a utility. sic em is fine.
    if he remains on GS to do it every other second, then he is in melee with slow skills. you should be able to interrupt or put some pressure on him. not just dodge.

    you are obviously missing the Point of the Topic. it has Nothing to do with bad /good/or other Things that seems to make you salty.
    it is, it was, and it will ever be a Question of counterplay. this game had an Evolution of balancing over the past 6 years where for a long time Things only get buffed (never nerfed). and with pof this got even worse. the current meta relies on abusing max 2 Buttons on nearly every build to one shot everything. for some People like you Maybe this is fun because you can simply Group with other and oneshotting single Targets in 5 vs 1 or playing a heavy mobile/Stealth class to oneshot and retreat all the time. no skillrotation->noskill.

    oneshoots are still unhealthy for a game because it doesnt rely on skill. and like i already said @MUDse.7623 , you can dodge it one, or twice but when the one shoot is on a way lower cooldown than your defense than its just a Question of time until he hits you. and it doesnt Need more than ~10 seconds. while ranger can still use several invuls/blocks/evade Frames to stay alive long enough. Maybe to use that skill they loose 3-4k dmg on their hits but there is no difference between getting hit by 33 K dmg or getting hit by 29k dmg.

    i just want a game where People have to Play a skillrotation to win fights. and not just ganking with those oneshot builds for 30k+ hits by pressing 2 buttons against a target that already used dodges to evade other oneshot skills.

    WvW, like spvp is not about balanced or fair encounters. infact the 'skill' in those modes comes from tactically rotating to create unfair fights. in conquest it works sort of but WvW has a huge underlying issue that is destroying every competitve aspect of it and thats the population inbalance. but you allways have to balance a game to its design, WvW with all the structures to capture, the wide open areas and the mass of people is just not designed for 1 vs 1 fair combat. expecting fair combat and facing what we have can indeed be recieved as unhealthy

    i think what you seek is more of an arena death match mode, wich would indeed require a different balance. in such a mode i wouldnt want people to use a skill rotation as a rotation does not need any thought. a huge issue IMO is our sustain that forces us to burst the opponent down. if we had less heal for example but more hp instead, then we would slowly go down, right now you often can fully recover from your mistakes if they dont kill you on many professions, instead of recoverying on kill or out of combat.

    my main issue with your and my other peoples nerf threads is that they do not ask for balancing the mode, but to balance a specific encounter without questioning wether this encounter as such is not already a misplay. therefor it reads to me like 'i dont want to be punished for my mistakes' in many cases. you may ask to 'change' something for it being unfun, but that should then not affect the balance, meaning dont ask for a nerf but a design change, for wich you would actually need to propose how you would enjoy it more, while allways remembering without changing the balance.

    read this, become a better player now.

  • @Zero.3871 said:

    @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

    @Zero.3871 said:
    Soulbeast dmg buffs when melted with pet:

    1.) Sick em gives 40 % dmg increase for EVERY skill you use for 10 seconds.
    2.) attack of opportunity by GS2: gives you 25 % dmg on the next attack. you can get this buff by using GS2 (4 sec cd).

    both dmg multiplicators due to absurd dmg Spikes of rangers that are beyond everything that EVER existed in the game. e.g. 10k+ AA on LB for 10 seconds. both dmg multiplicators were introduced to the game as dmg modifiers for PETS. not for the ranger himself.

    and i am tired of trying to dodge a "burst skill" that is in fact an AA from LB or getting nuked with 30k+ dmg from a skill that has 4 sec cd. its on the same broken Level like condi Mirage.

    Hahahahaha .... this is my only reaction for your saying ...
    First of all in sPVP and WvW Sick ' EM! doesn't give 40% damage, mostly 25%, it was tested already.
    Second : A ranger who can do that damage you talked about, 30k is definitely Zerk one. This means if you manage to dodge him he will be eaten in a second too.
    The difference between Soulbeas zerk and Mesmer or Deadeye zerk is that Mesmer and Thief can just vanish/run away easily and Ranger can't. Ranger doesn't have so many dodges and blocks like Thief and Mesmer ...
    And third ... Sick ' EM! it is so OP, that no Top ranger from sPVP or WvW is using it ... It is not strange?
    Ofc, when some good ranger want some fun, and he is near a gate of his tower, or in a good party, he can use zerk/one shot kill build (even it is not one shot like the one of mesmer of thief), but this is rare, instead you can see on every map of WvW and in sPVP a lots of One Shot thief and mesmer.

    the Problem is the high access to that 2 dmg modifiers. you say i should just "dodge" that. but what exactly should i dodge? with sick em nearly every skill becomes a massive burst for 10 sec Duration. its not just dodging 1 specific skill, you cant dodge 15 times in a row.

    same with GS2. this skill also grant his attack of opportunity when NOT successfully hit the enemy. you can cast it, push your Opponent and 4 sec later use GS2 WITH Bonus dmg. and if he dodge this, no problem, 4 seconds later you have the next try. in the first 8 seconds of a fight rangers can use it 3 times. i can only dodge 2 times. and while sick em is also up i cannot only dodge gs2 i have to dodge every attack of him to not insta die.

    you can also Play a more defensive build that can take a lot of dmg while using this dmg modifiers to hit with 15k instead of 30k. its still too much dmg gain from 1 skill.

    No, you can't. MM is trash for defense (it has only the passive Signet of Stone at 50% health). Using more defensive gear in a BM/MM build doesn't work because such a build needs its target to die fast. More toughness/vitality won't add enough defense to warrant letting a fight go longer. A more typical build (BM/WS) might see 15k mauls with Sic 'Em if it builds glassy enough with its gear.

    But it goes without saying that you should do something to avoid/mitigate damage when within melee range of a soulbeast using greatsword while Sic 'Em is active. Protection alone cuts through most if not all of the damage mods gained by Sic 'Em or Attack of Opportunity and ranger has no native boon rip or corruption.

  • @shadowpass.4236 said:
    If you're complaining that you don't have enough dodges/active defenses to avoid the ranged burst, you really shouldn't be roaming on necro.

    It's common knowledge that necro is one of the worst roaming classes. They are also hard-countered by most longbow ranger builds in WvW.

    Other classes have enough ways to mitigate the burst rotation with Sic Em. And no, don't exaggerate. It is impossible to have 10k auto attacks for 10 seconds.

    Also, you're complaining about a gimmick build that has around 4 seconds of unblockable. If you want to avoid the burst completely, dodge twice, swap weapons with energy sigils, dodge again, then place Corrosive Poison Cloud down for base 8 seconds of complete projectile denial. Then, you can decide if you want to fight the ranger or leave. Of course, since he's running full glass, he's also easy to kill unless he just runs away.

    Very well said!

  • @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:
    I would be okay with Sic 'Em changing if it got replaced with something actually interesting that brings solid utility. Like a big leap with a reveal so it can help with pets sticking to the targets too.

    Just run cheetah...

  • @Zero.3871 said:
    Soulbeast dmg buffs when melted with pet:

    Usually the enemies melt us... but some of our pets do the same :)

  • @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:

    @myboybuzzy.5809 said:

    @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:
    I would be okay with Sic 'Em changing if it got replaced with something actually interesting that brings solid utility. Like a big leap with a reveal so it can help with pets sticking to the targets too.

    Just run cheetah...

    And have absolute trash beastmode skills? Yeah, hard pass.

    Your answer was imba :D

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

    @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:

    @myboybuzzy.5809 said:

    @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:
    I would be okay with Sic 'Em changing if it got replaced with something actually interesting that brings solid utility. Like a big leap with a reveal so it can help with pets sticking to the targets too.

    Just run cheetah...

    And have absolute trash beastmode skills? Yeah, hard pass.

    Your answer was imba :D

    'Twas just a suggestion that would make sense with the overall purpose and theme of the skill. I just don't want Sic 'Em to be overnerfed to uselessness because of complaints.

  • How about no?

    It's a one trick glass build without any of the thief/deadeye shenanigans that make such builds almost viable and if you can't kill it by sneezing on it you should feel bad. Reading a rangers LB AA or Rapid Fire attack isn't very difficult.

    The only place it really shines is messing with zerg stragglers or catching scholar roamers by surprise in WvW and even then beefier builds are going to survive your burst and probably kill you. Excellent players and WvW montage videos make it look better than it really is.

    The montage videos often don't show you the bad match ups and the follow up spanking they get.

    Pretty hit and miss in PvP from what I've witnessed. Sometimes Sic em' really can screw over a thief and the burst can melt a squishy quite handily, looks awesome when it works out.

    But I haven't had the motivation to build it there yet since most of the time that build tends to lose the game as they've given up all their survivability on the hope and prayer they can burst everything like a poor man's thief/deadeye.

    When it doesn't work out? They're the ones being bursted. By non-bursty builds.

  • Undertow.2389Undertow.2389 Member ✭✭✭

    Just to correct this again, since I've seen it before: sic 'em is indeed 40% when melded in spvp, not only 25%. It takes all of 30 seconds to verify; use a skill like barrage with a static damage per hit (no random variance) and make sure there's no might or vuln involved. For example, 383 damage without it, 536 with it right now. 536/383 = 140%.

    IMO it is bad for the game. In general, not just soulbeast, damage is too high compared to hp pools from years of power creep, especially with all the power build buffs post HoT because everyone was playing condi in raid pve. The only "good" builds are the ones with equally overpowered defenses, through either constant protection uptime like boonbeast, firebrand support and/or endless evades, blocks, invulns, and stealths (especially if you can do damage while doing so). See mirage, spellbreaker, holosmith, etc.

  • @Zero.3871 said:
    Soulbeast dmg buffs when melted with pet:

    1.) Sick em gives 40 % dmg increase for EVERY skill you use for 10 seconds.
    2.) attack of opportunity by GS2: gives you 25 % dmg on the next attack. you can get this buff by using GS2 (4 sec cd).

    both dmg multiplicators due to absurd dmg Spikes of rangers that are beyond everything that EVER existed in the game. e.g. 10k+ AA on LB for 10 seconds. both dmg multiplicators were introduced to the game as dmg modifiers for PETS. not for the ranger himself.

    and i am tired of trying to dodge a "burst skill" that is in fact an AA from LB or getting nuked with 30k+ dmg from a skill that has 4 sec cd. its on the same broken Level like condi Mirage.

    ahahah... just try next time not to eat all the burst from the ranger. Me as an zerg scourge or roam soulbeast i don't have any trouble with enemy soulbeasts.

    My advise for you is to make a ranger and learn to play with it so you see its weakness. Otherwise you will always find something to complain for, the pets, the soulbeast, the shouts, the pets skills....

  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Broadening the horizon is always good.

  • Shivvies.3921Shivvies.3921 Member ✭✭✭

    In other words "make it so that Ranger is only viable as druid in pve"?

  • Eleazar.9478Eleazar.9478 Member ✭✭✭

    Sure after necros loose shroud and can only do single target damage

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 28, 2018

    When Mirages and Thieves lose their ridiculous ability to perpetually dodge, vanish, escape, ambush, etc. while still doing insta-kill DPS, then maybe we'll talk about what needs nerfed on Ranger. Or any other class for that matter. Stop trying to balance around PVP and WVW modes when the majority of the game is and always will be PVE.

  • evil laughter

  • bigo.9037bigo.9037 Member ✭✭✭

    @Jimbru.6014 said:
    When Mirages and Thieves lose their ridiculous ability to perpetually dodge, vanish, escape, ambush, etc. while still doing insta-kill DPS, then maybe we'll talk about what needs nerfed on Ranger. Or any other class for that matter. Stop trying to balance around PVP and WVW modes when the majority of the game is and always will be PVE.

    so just because more players are in pve we should ignore pvp balance?

  • @Undertow.2389 said:
    Just to correct this again, since I've seen it before: sic 'em is indeed 40% when melded in spvp, not only 25%. It takes all of 30 seconds to verify; use a skill like barrage with a static damage per hit (no random variance) and make sure there's no might or vuln involved. For example, 383 damage without it, 536 with it right now. 536/383 = 140%.

    I suspect the "sic'em does only 25%" comes from someone misunderstanding that it is AoO from Maul that gives 25% on SB and 50% to pet and then no one ever fact checked it. Just double checked myself and I'm also getting 40% from sic'em in PvP and WvW.

    @Shadowcat.2680 said:

    @Zero.3871 said:
    e.g. 10k+ AA on LB for 10 seconds. both dmg multiplicators were introduced to the game as dmg modifiers for PETS. not for the ranger himself.
    and i am tired of trying to dodge a "burst skill" that is in fact an AA from LB or getting nuked with 30k+ dmg from a skill that has 4 sec cd.

    These numbers (30k+ maul and 10k+ AA lb) don't happen for every soulbeast that uses the two skills you're complaining about. To get those numbers, a soulbeast runs MM/BM, stacking the dmg modifiers from MM. An overhaul of MM is something Anet should do at some point. Its minors are trash; soulbeasts run it for Remorseless and Moment of Clarity. One simple change Anet could do to curtail the dmg modifiers without hurting core ranger would be making it so MoC's 50% doesn't stack with the 25% from the soulbeast version of Maul. As the traits/skills work now, there's 25% from Attack of Opportunity (Maul), 25% from Remorseless, 40% from soulbeast's Sic 'Em, and 50% from MoC, adding up to 140% for an attack.

    I shall quote myself from awhile ago to add to the MM MoC/Maul AoO discussion since I don't think enough people understand how crazy this can get in WvW.

    @DuckDuckBOOM.4097 said:
    These are PvE tests will full zerker PvE armor but they shed light into mechanics with MoC and AoO. Since I'm by myself with this, I have to test vs PvE mobs to reduce randomness with interrupt procs. I have zero buffs and have stacked zero vuln on the target.
    https://imgur.com/a/6U7SWCr
    1) My first world impact is 20.4k. A shark bit me for 2.5k right before. With my 17.4k health, that means I lost my double scholar bonus.
    2) The 39k and 40.9k you can see have interrupts proc right before I hit the sand shark and I had my full scholar bonus from not being hit. I also pre-cast Maul for the 25% AoO bonus.
    3) The 31.3k is also an interrupt but no maul precast.
    4) The 23.3k was a standard Sic'em F3 nothing else.

    Situation 2 and 3 both have full scholar bonus and interrupt --> MoC procs. The difference between 3 and 2 is about 25% from the math which matches with pre-cassted Maul's AoO being 25%. The difference between 3 and 4 is an interrupt MoC AoO which is a 50%. Math adds up. I repeat, I had zero might/vuln being applied here but this is of course PvE gear. All of these were remorseless opening strikes which also adds 25% to a single hit. All of them of course also had Sic'em when I cast F3.

    With the new runes/sigils, I could probably make those numbers crazier. When you hit that hard from stealth, defensive traits don't even proc. I agree with you that AoO from Maul/MoC shouldn't stack. Maybe split sic'em on SB between PvE (40%) and WvW (actually 25%)? Not sure about PvP. They could also make the SB Maul self buff last only 2-3 seconds instead of 10. As someone that actually uses glass cannon sic'em builds in all game modes, I could get behind these changes. These nerfs would also not affect PvE DPS SB so PvE only ppl shouldn't complain.

    I used to think some of these interactions were not intended (Especially with beastly warden/live fast WI combo). However, the new GS trait was changed to give fury on CC. This makes the MoC/remorseless double buff so much easier to pull off. However, this is a base ranger interaction and this combo gives a reaction time to stunbreak/dodge after CC so I don't think it's the real problem. The wiffed Maul in stealth/sic'em combo does not give any tell. Even if it is "balanced" due to how glassy it is, can anyone watch the above video and think "that's fun to play against?"

    They could give Sic'em a minor damage component on cast. This would waste all the single proc alpha strike mods from stealth. So no AoO via Maul or MoC, nor remorseless on a sic'em 1 hit KO straight out of stealth. You have to "mark" your target with sic'em which wastes the opening strike, then gain the fury/interrupt procs in "fair combat" before 1 hit KOing people although the WI/BW/LF combo would work. SB and DE both need some kind of "rebalance/rework" to the full glass builds to make them more fair/fun to fight against.

  • @beatthedown.2651 said:
    Please dont take this video too seriously

    You know they will.

  • @CETheLucid.3964 said:

    @beatthedown.2651 said:
    Please dont take this video too seriously

    You know they will.

    Every enemy he killed in this video was glass cannon. With his build, on a top tier he can't do anything. If you try this build on someone with a decent build, with at least 1500 toughness means 2.6k armor, and if that someone didn't sleep, you don't have any chance, you will die after the first attack.
    He looks enough time/days for these glass cannon players who were not paying attention too.

  • DuckDuckBOOM.4097DuckDuckBOOM.4097 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 29, 2018

    @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

    @CETheLucid.3964 said:

    @beatthedown.2651 said:
    Please dont take this video too seriously

    You know they will.

    Every enemy he killed in this video was glass cannon. With his build, on a top tier he can't do anything. If you try this build on someone with a decent build, with at least 1500 toughness means 2.6k armor, and if that someone didn't sleep, you don't have any chance, you will die after the first attack.
    He looks enough time/days for these glass cannon players who were not paying attention too.

    Except the 2nd enemy (Firebrand with protection) took 12k from the first hit for ~90% of his health and died in 2 hits. The second DD took a 14k hit and also died. 17k hit on a Herald for the 4th enemy. 17k on a Druid. 21-23k is the upper limit for axe 3 in the video. Those are all elite specs so they are all lvl 80 too. Are you really going to look at that amount of variance in how much damage (12k to 23k) people take and conclude that they are all "glass cannons"?

    Going from 2.1k armor to 2.6k armor is only ~20% damage reduction while prot is 33%. Prot brings a 22k crit down to ~14.5k. The 20% dmg reduction of 500 extra toughness brings that down to ~12k that the firebrand took. So no, 500 extra toughness isn't enough to survive an axe3 ambush. Do you really think a "tanky" enemy is somehow going to instantly turn around and 100-0 a glass cannon from 10% health? You need to remove the scholar buffs, apply weakness etc before the first hit from the SB ever happens.

    I pose the question again, do you think it's fun to fight that kind of build in wvw? Do deadeyes "only 1 shot glass cannons?" Does 500 toughness suddenly make all other attacks aside from the first hit do zero damage?

    It's one thing when I go glass in PvP: It's a set 5v5. Even if I destroy my enemies in the opening fight, my enemies can try to adapt, call target and focus me until 500 points are scored. They are, in theory, intensely focused on the match and try to pay attention to my location and can kite/hide behind walls/double team me when sic'em is up. If they stick together, even if I down 1 person, their teammates can try to retaliate. They or I may not succeed but I don't feel bad for my enemies there.

    It's another thing when you walk around for 10 minutes in wvw to the other side of the map, maybe cap a camp, fight 2 npcs then suddenly explode in an open field. I realize Anet doesn't specifically balance for WvW 1v1 roaming but if there are ways to reduce the insane spikes while not nerfing boon best/base ranger, why is that a problem?

  • beatthedown.2651beatthedown.2651 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 29, 2018

    @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

    @CETheLucid.3964 said:

    @beatthedown.2651 said:
    Please dont take this video too seriously

    You know they will.

    Every enemy he killed in this video was glass cannon. With his build, on a top tier he can't do anything. If you try this build on someone with a decent build, with at least 1500 toughness means 2.6k armor, and if that someone didn't sleep, you don't have any chance, you will die after the first attack.
    He looks enough time/days for these glass cannon players who were not paying attention too.

    I oneshotted a Druid with 3.3k armor with around 32k the other day. I had no night bonus or bloodlust. Of course it's a non competitive Meme build, but armor (without Protection) does not matter really.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 29, 2018

    @DuckDuckBOOM.4097 said:
    They could give Sic'em a minor damage component on cast. This would waste all the single proc alpha strike mods from stealth. So no AoO via Maul or MoC, nor remorseless on a sic'em 1 hit KO straight out of stealth. You have to "mark" your target with sic'em which wastes the opening strike, then gain the fury/interrupt procs in "fair combat" before 1 hit KOing people although the WI/BW/LF combo would work. SB and DE both need some kind of "rebalance/rework" to the full glass builds to make them more fair/fun to fight against.

    just to add it here: currently the effect placed on the opponent from sic em (reveal) is not dodgeable, adding damage most probably will make it dodgeable wich would be a huge nerf to its reveal chance. as a mostly deadeye myself i mostly get hit by this reveal during a dodge. not sure if that reveal has any restrictions at all atm aside from having a target, but if it gets damage attached to it, it would be as unreliable as rev reveal.
    as for making them more fun to fight against i am all for it, altho i think there will allways be a way to 'gank' people and if it requires superior numbers. but when reworking it the context of the mode allways has to be kept in mind. many suggestions however are based on isolated 1vs1 fights, wich dont exist outside of guild arena / custom arena.

    read this, become a better player now.

  • The only nerf I think they should consider is that the bonus attack of opportunity from maul should be given only if the maul successfully strike something.

  • Sick'em should be a pull instead a damage boost. Rangers have hardly enough ways to pull enemies in.
    Pull 5 enemies in, immobilize, and give them revealed for 6 seconds, and 10 stacks of vulnerability for 8 seconds, and reduce the damage boost to just 10 to 20%.

  • Dragonzhunter.8506Dragonzhunter.8506 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 29, 2018

    @DuckDuckBOOM.4097 said:

    @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

    @CETheLucid.3964 said:

    @beatthedown.2651 said:
    Please dont take this video too seriously

    You know they will.

    Every enemy he killed in this video was glass cannon. With his build, on a top tier he can't do anything. If you try this build on someone with a decent build, with at least 1500 toughness means 2.6k armor, and if that someone didn't sleep, you don't have any chance, you will die after the first attack.
    He looks enough time/days for these glass cannon players who were not paying attention too.

    Except the 2nd enemy (Firebrand with protection) took 12k from the first hit for ~90% of his health and died in 2 hits. The second DD took a 14k hit and also died. 17k hit on a Herald for the 4th enemy. 17k on a Druid. 21-23k is the upper limit for axe 3 in the video. Those are all elite specs so they are all lvl 80 too. Are you really going to look at that amount of variance in how much damage (12k to 23k) people take and conclude that they are all "glass cannons"?

    Going from 2.1k armor to 2.6k armor is only ~20% damage reduction while prot is 33%. Prot brings a 22k crit down to ~14.5k. The 20% dmg reduction of 500 extra toughness brings that down to ~12k that the firebrand took. So no, 500 extra toughness isn't enough to survive an axe3 ambush. Do you really think a "tanky" enemy is somehow going to instantly turn around and 100-0 a glass cannon from 10% health? You need to remove the scholar buffs, apply weakness etc before the first hit from the SB ever happens.

    I pose the question again, do you think it's fun to fight that kind of build in wvw? Do deadeyes "only 1 shot glass cannons?" Does 500 toughness suddenly make all other attacks aside from the first hit do zero damage?

    It's one thing when I go glass in PvP: It's a set 5v5. Even if I destroy my enemies in the opening fight, my enemies can try to adapt, call target and focus me until 500 points are scored. They are, in theory, intensely focused on the match and try to pay attention to my location and can kite/hide behind walls/double team me when sic'em is up. If they stick together, even if I down 1 person, their teammates can try to retaliate. They or I may not succeed but I don't feel bad for my enemies there.

    It's another thing when you walk around for 10 minutes in wvw to the other side of the map, maybe cap a camp, fight 2 npcs then suddenly explode in an open field. I realize Anet doesn't specifically balance for WvW 1v1 roaming but if there are ways to reduce the insane spikes while not nerfing boon best/base ranger, why is that a problem?

    I am trying to find the reason you quote me ... why? because:
    1. I said that all enemies are glass cannon due the fact their toughness is 1000 - 1200. Also, like you said prot has 33% damage reduction, but most of the enemies were sleeping or were very-very bad.
    2. I played this build many times, on my server, and in my Tier I never shot down someone as he did. Even with 25 stacks of might. Why? Because usual ppl in Higher Tier WvW are not going with low Toughness/Armor when 90% of builds are based on power.
    3. I don't know where did you get the idea that I thought that build is fun to play, please hold your horses and don't make an assumption for something I didn't say or though.
    4. Yesterday I met 2 players from Desolation border, one was Deadeye and one was Berserker with Rifle. Their damage outstands mine, and they survivability in zerk build was much, much, much higher ... And they could kill a player with a balance build (toughness, vitality, protection) without dying.
    5. Conclusion: still I don't know why did you quote me, and yes there are 3 classes at least (deadeye, mesmer and berserk rifle) who can play glass cannon in WvW, could kill bunker class and still they can survive and go away after that. Instead, I didn't see any glass cannon ranger who can do this, none!

    PS: Desolation is in top 3 Tier 1 WvW.

  • Dragonzhunter.8506Dragonzhunter.8506 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 29, 2018

    @beatthedown.2651 said:

    @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

    @CETheLucid.3964 said:

    @beatthedown.2651 said:
    Please dont take this video too seriously

    You know they will.

    Every enemy he killed in this video was glass cannon. With his build, on a top tier he can't do anything. If you try this build on someone with a decent build, with at least 1500 toughness means 2.6k armor, and if that someone didn't sleep, you don't have any chance, you will die after the first attack.
    He looks enough time/days for these glass cannon players who were not paying attention too.

    I oneshotted a Druid with 3.3k armor with around 32k the other day. I had no night bonus or bloodlust. Of course it's a non competitive Meme build, but armor (without Protection) does not matter really.

    Can you tell me please how did you know that he was with 3.3k armor ? Did you ask him? Or he told you?

    I am asking you this because I did some calculation:
    Damage done = (Weapon strength) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target's Armor) , on this we could add Vulnerability, Attack of Opportunity and ofc Crit Damage.
    If we take Maul, like ranger from the video :
    Damage done = 1100 (ascended weapon) * 3158 (numbers from zerk build) * 1.75 (Maul skill-specific coefficient) / 3300 (your druid armor as you said) =
    Damage done = 6,079,150 / 3300 = 1,842 + 1,842 * 250% (crit damage from zerk build) = 1,842+4,605 = 6,448 on this we will add 25% Attack of Opportunity so
    Damage done = 6,448 + 6,448 * 25% = 6,448 + 1,612 = 8,059 let's say he has Vulnerability from Maul, so we add another 5% damage = 8,059 + 8,059*25% =
    Damage done = 8,059 + 403 = 8,462
    Maybe my calculation are not very accurate, but still from 8,462 damage to 32,000 it is a looooong way.
    Instead, if he was without 3.3k armor, but only 1k armor (as glass cannon build) total damage could be = 6,079,150 / 1000 = 6,079 + all adds you could hit a damage = 28 k ...

  • @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

    @beatthedown.2651 said:

    @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

    @CETheLucid.3964 said:

    @beatthedown.2651 said:
    Please dont take this video too seriously

    You know they will.

    Every enemy he killed in this video was glass cannon. With his build, on a top tier he can't do anything. If you try this build on someone with a decent build, with at least 1500 toughness means 2.6k armor, and if that someone didn't sleep, you don't have any chance, you will die after the first attack.
    He looks enough time/days for these glass cannon players who were not paying attention too.

    I oneshotted a Druid with 3.3k armor with around 32k the other day. I had no night bonus or bloodlust. Of course it's a non competitive Meme build, but armor (without Protection) does not matter really.

    Can you tell me please how did you know that he was with 3.3k armor ? Did you ask him? Or he told you?

    He literally told me "kitten I have 3.3k armor". Of course no need to believe me. Try it out yourself. You could probably hit even harder.

  • @beatthedown.2651 said:

    @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

    @beatthedown.2651 said:

    @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

    @CETheLucid.3964 said:

    @beatthedown.2651 said:
    Please dont take this video too seriously

    You know they will.

    Every enemy he killed in this video was glass cannon. With his build, on a top tier he can't do anything. If you try this build on someone with a decent build, with at least 1500 toughness means 2.6k armor, and if that someone didn't sleep, you don't have any chance, you will die after the first attack.
    He looks enough time/days for these glass cannon players who were not paying attention too.

    I oneshotted a Druid with 3.3k armor with around 32k the other day. I had no night bonus or bloodlust. Of course it's a non competitive Meme build, but armor (without Protection) does not matter really.

    Can you tell me please how did you know that he was with 3.3k armor ? Did you ask him? Or he told you?

    He literally told me "kitten I have 3.3k armor". Of course no need to believe me. Try it out yourself. You could probably hit even harder.

    If you take a look above your answer, you will see I did some calculation.
    In the meantime, I calculated again, and the numbers are these:
    vs 3.3k armor you could do 9,381 damage
    vs 1k armor you could do 30,958 damage

    with 25 stacks of might the numbers are:

    vs 3.3k armor you could do 11,728 damage
    vs 1k armor you could do 38,703 damage

    Maybe I am wrong, please someone correct me

  • @DuckDuckBOOM.4097 said:
    Except the 2nd enemy (Firebrand with protection) took 12k from the first hit for ~90% of his health and died in 2 hits.

    Guardian with full berserk armor+accesories = 12,800 HP , so yes if he got 11,517 damage and he remai with 5% of his HP, yes we can say that he has 12k HP

    The second DD took a 14k hit and also died.

    Thief berserker = 12,800 HP , so if he was hit with 13,871 and he was down, we can say he was glass cannon

    17k hit on a Herald for the 4th enemy.

    Revenant full berserker = 17,514 HP , after first hit 17,348 he was with 27% HP, maybe he wasn't glass cannon, but almost (remember that the numbers I'll give about HP with berserker armor+accesories are without any traits, so for Guardian, DD, Revenant etc their HP could be a little bit higher from their traits lines)

    17k on a Druid

    Druid berserker = 17,514 HP (without bonus from traits lines), hi died from 17,886 when he had 75% HP.

    Soulbeast died from 18,969 damage , again yes was berserker with 17k-18k HP

    So, yes, I am more than sure that most of them were a glass cannon or berserker armor+accesorie (or any kind of ... assasin etc, something without toughness)

  • First off, since this is the internet, I want to be clear that I'm not trying to bully you here. I will correct you though for the sake of making sure facts are straight.

    @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:
    In the meantime, I calculated again, and the numbers are these:
    vs 3.3k armor you could do 9,381 damage
    vs 1k armor you could do 30,958 damage
    Maybe I am wrong, please someone correct me

    And ...

    Instead, if he was without 3.3k armor, but only 1k armor (as glass cannon build) total damage could be = 6,079,150 / 1000 = 6,079 + all adds you could hit a damage = 28 k ...

    First off, nobody at lvl 80 has 1k armor unless they are naked. You have 1k base toughness + about ~1.1k defense from your gear. The defense will vary about 200 based on armor class and exotic vs ascended. Toughness + Defense = Armor. This gives a total of 2.1k armor for glass cannons. 3.3k armor is about 1.2k bonus toughness from gear. 3.3k armor is only about 33% damage reduction compared to glass cannon.

    @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:
    I am asking you this because I did some calculation:
    Damage done = (Weapon strength) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target's Armor) , on this we could add Vulnerability, Attack of Opportunity and ofc Crit Damage.
    Snip...
    Maybe my calculation are not very accurate, but still from 8,462 damage to 32,000 it is a looooong way.

    It does seem like a long way but read on.
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQFABW+DsFZgAQOx3H/gGwISD-jlRBABXt/o8DgHAAe6AM+CAYmSQKV/JAwBw5nHAO/8zP/8zr5nf+5nf+5nf+5lCIiJbA-w
    Overall, this equation is correct but you are missing sic'em, probably a moment of clarity which is 50%, 7% bonus damage with fury, 5% bonus after CC, "scholar bonuses" of 10% BM, 10% from SB, 5% from scholar. 10% with a GS. Maybe sigil of force/impact for another 5, 3 and 7%. Your crit damage calculation is also wrong. That's 3267 power while merged so close enough to your 3158. So let's take the base damage of 1,842 vs 3.3k armor you calculated. This math is right.

    DMG = 1,842 (your number) X 2.68 (crit) X 1.4 (sic'em) X 1.5 (MoC AoO) X 1.25 (Maul AoO) X 1.25 (remorseless) X 1.1 (previous maul 5 vuln + 5 vuln from opening strike) X 1.1 X 1.1 X 1.05 (triple scholar) X 1.1 X 1.05 (sigils) X 1.07 X 1.05 X 1.1 (fury, TaV, GS traits)
    Feel free to copy paste into a calculator = 1,842X2.68X1.4X1.5X1.25X1.25X1.1X1.1X1.1X1.05X1.1X1.05X1.07X1.05X1.1 = 32,313 dmg vs someone with 3.3k armor. This also assumes the one shot was with Maul with a 1.75 coeff. With the same setup, WI would hit about 35k.

    Do you see how crazy this gets when you go from 1.8k base damage to 33k final?
    This is only 10 vuln, zero might.
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQFAGSAAAYA-jVhXABhqDIYlfAs/A0KBjV9HA-w
    A full minstrel druid has 3.3k armor and 22k health. This would 1 hit KO a full minstrel druid!

    @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:
    I am trying to find the reason you quote me ... why? because:
    1. I said that all enemies are glass cannon due the fact their toughness is 1000 - 1200. Also, like you said prot has 33% damage reduction, but most of the enemies were sleeping or were very-very bad.
    3. I don't know where did you get the idea that I thought that build is fun to play, please hold your horses and don't make an assumption for something I didn't say or though.

    You claimed that 500 bonus toughness (2.1.k base +500 toughness = 2.6k armor) would save them from a 1 shot. Having seen the above math, do you still think 500 bonus toughness from gear will save you from this combo? When the same combo sometimes does 20-23k and sometimes does 12k, that's ~40% damage reduction. They may not have much vitality but some of those enemies have armor and are still getting 1 shot.

    I'm asking if it's fun to play against, not if it is fun to play. There is no "high horse." Just because something is balanced doesn't make it fun for both sides. If people aren't having fun playing the game (which is partially related to a sense of fairness), I don't think the game will flourish as much. Since I want to see the game do well, I think fun needs to dictate balance to some degree.

©2010–2018 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire, ArenaNet, NCSOFT, the Interlocking NC Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of NCSOFT Corporation. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.