What is typical DPS on a "normal" raid golem with "average" HP but NO perma boons? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

What is typical DPS on a "normal" raid golem with "average" HP but NO perma boons?

Was messing around with the training golems, and trying to see what the max sustained DPS I can do on an average golem in the absence of boons, other than what I can generate and sustain myself. This may sound like a counterproductive endeavor, but I find it sort of helpful to determine what you may be able to solo (content wise). Didn't know if anyone else out there had done this. I found that I have doubled my boonless DPS output from when I first used the special forces training area:

initial 6 months ago:
Reaper (Lv80) full exotic gear and weapons (cavalier/reaper runes; axe/focus/GS) plus full ascended trinkets (cleric): ~2200 DPS

now:
Reaper (Lv80) full exotic armor (crusader/reaper runes) and exotic weapons (cavalier; axe/focus/GS) plus full ascended trinkets (cavalier): ~4800 DPS

Unfortunately, don't know how this compares against what other people could achieve.

Comments

  • Laila Lightness.8742Laila Lightness.8742 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 20, 2018

    @Nerah.8235 said:
    Was messing around with the training golems, and trying to see what the max sustained DPS I can do on an average golem in the absence of boons, other than what I can generate and sustain myself. This may sound like a counterproductive endeavor, but I find it sort of helpful to determine what you may be able to solo (content wise). Didn't know if anyone else out there had done this. I found that I have doubled my boonless DPS output from when I first used the special forces training area:

    initial 6 months ago:
    Reaper (Lv80) full exotic gear and weapons (cavalier/reaper runes; axe/focus/GS) plus full ascended trinkets (cleric): ~2200 DPS

    now:
    Reaper (Lv80) full exotic armor (crusader/reaper runes) and exotic weapons (cavalier; axe/focus/GS) plus full ascended trinkets (cavalier): ~4800 DPS

    Unfortunately, don't know how this compares against what other people could achieve.

    Thats kinda low dps try berserker stats instead. Try to hit between 15k to 20k dps

  • Jeknar.6184Jeknar.6184 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @Nerah.8235 said:
    Was messing around with the training golems, and trying to see what the max sustained DPS I can do on an average golem in the absence of boons, other than what I can generate and sustain myself. This may sound like a counterproductive endeavor, but I find it sort of helpful to determine what you may be able to solo (content wise). Didn't know if anyone else out there had done this. I found that I have doubled my boonless DPS output from when I first used the special forces training area:

    initial 6 months ago:
    Reaper (Lv80) full exotic gear and weapons (cavalier/reaper runes; axe/focus/GS) plus full ascended trinkets (cleric): ~2200 DPS

    now:
    Reaper (Lv80) full exotic armor (crusader/reaper runes) and exotic weapons (cavalier; axe/focus/GS) plus full ascended trinkets (cavalier): ~4800 DPS

    Unfortunately, don't know how this compares against what other people could achieve.

    Thats kinda low dps try berserker stats instead. Try to hit between 15k to 20k dps

    I find very unlikely a profession can hit those numbers without boons...

    Ferguson's Crossing Mithril Recruit (Rank 4664) - PvP Phoenix (Rank 72) - 30k Achievment Points
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  • NewTrain.7549NewTrain.7549 Member
    edited November 20, 2018

    With most of my damage-oriented characters I'm doing somewhere between 8-13k with no boons other than what I generate myself. My healing scourge with no offensive stats at all hits around 4k. I should add that I'm not a raider and my rotations are likely not very tight.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 20, 2018

    @NewTrain.7549 said:
    With most of my damage-oriented characters I'm doing somewhere between 8-13k with no boons other than what I generate myself. My healing scourge with no offensive stats at all hits around 4k. I should add that I'm not a raider and my rotations are likely not very tight.

    This.

    My Deadeye old build (Full ascended berserker armor and weapons, ascended marauder trinkets, no stat bonus infusions) is hitting 9k dps on the average golem with not boons (except self fury), no weakness on target and no class buffs. Literally just first try to see how it compares approximately.

    Given the build is outperformed by Holo and other power builds, this puts in between your 8-13k base.

    EDIT: did have food and utility buff still running from raids, forgot to mention.

  • Aktium.9506Aktium.9506 Member ✭✭✭

    @Jeknar.6184 said:
    I find very unlikely a profession can hit those numbers without boons...

    pchrono gets 24k with only self-generated boons

  • Also something to consider: Depending on the burst of your spec, you will end up with a higher number if you test it on a 1mil golem vs a 4mil one.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Why exactly you are using 'crusader' & 'cavalier' for reaper?

    I dream of elves in GW2.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Cavalier stats? Reaper runes? Horrible setup for a dps role...

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    Cavalier stats? Reaper runes? Horrible setup for a dps role...

    As he's building this for solo play theirs not really a dps role.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    Cavalier stats? Reaper runes? Horrible setup for a dps role...

    As he's building this for solo play theirs not really a dps role.

    Cant really say, then, how much dps he/she should have.

  • The stat combo question is relevant (sort of): for most late game PvE content, some combination of berserker and marauder would probably be optimal. The issue is that I typically use a single all-purpose build for all modes, because I would rather "play" than grind out gear sets for each mode. It is not optimal, but generally it is "good enough". I like toughness gear, mainly because it helps a lot in PvP modes when you get ganked, while being decent (ymmv) for soloing stuff in PvE, like soloing dungeon content.

     > @"Voltekka.2375" said:
    

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    Cavalier stats? Reaper runes? Horrible setup for a dps role...

    As he's building this for solo play theirs not really a dps role.

    Cant really say, then, how much dps he/she should have.

    Above is strictly speaking true, as I am not building out for a raid DPS role, HOWEVER, if you assume that the community reported boonless golem DPS output is "optimal"--at least in a certain narrow sense--it gives you an indication of how effective your build is compared to that standard. It is nice to know this qualitatively, i.e. ~30-50% the DPS of "optimal" builds in my case [note: NOT adjusted for class, build, or gear]. This gives you a mental idea of the upper limits of stuff you could reasonably solo: in my case, I could probably solo the easiest content in some fractals and dungeons, but I would definitely need a group for content that is recognized as harder or require complicated mechanics.

  • @Aktium.9506 said:

    @Jeknar.6184 said:
    I find very unlikely a profession can hit those numbers without boons...

    pchrono gets 24k with only self-generated boons

    I noticed this in the discussion. If true (and can anyone confirm this?), that appears to be a serious outlier, i.e. double what players report other optimized professions seem to be able to achieve in similar circumstances. I must confess that I try to stay out of balance discussions, but stuff like this kinda gives the game a black eye.

  • I don't understand. Necro is like THE profession to go full on 'zerker. You guys have more hp than a defence traited warrior AND access to multiple tanky pets.

    Solo is basically a "dps role" for all professions really shorter TTK is queen in solo and doubly so for necro.

    I'd definitely go full zerker and scholars with force / accuracy on weapon.

    Cheers!

  • Shivvies.3921Shivvies.3921 Member ✭✭
    edited November 21, 2018

    I also do not play necro a lot but I have a pretty newbie necro in my static who does 10-12k bursts in open world without boonshare. I THINK he can sustain 8-9kish if he can just stand there and dps if that gives you an idea.

    Cheers!

  • @Nerah.8235 said:

    @Aktium.9506 said:

    @Jeknar.6184 said:
    I find very unlikely a profession can hit those numbers without boons...

    pchrono gets 24k with only self-generated boons

    I noticed this in the discussion. If true (and can anyone confirm this?), that appears to be a serious outlier, i.e. double what players report other optimized professions seem to be able to achieve in similar circumstances. I must confess that I try to stay out of balance discussions, but stuff like this kinda gives the game a black eye.

    Power Chrono can burst for that because the Chrono profession is the reason for the meta currently. They also die really easily. So the 24k burst on the golem means almost nothing. It is nearly impossible in solo conditions. Also, Chrono is not the easiest profession to play.

    I mean, I did not have much problem with my Mesmer but there is a reason people say "save your 80 boost for your Mesmer" :P

    Cheers!

  • @Shivvies.3921 said:
    I don't understand. Necro is like THE profession to go full on 'zerker. You guys have more hp than a defence traited warrior AND access to multiple tanky pets.

    Solo is basically a "dps role" for all professions really shorter TTK is queen in solo and doubly so for necro.

    I'd definitely go full zerker and scholars with force / accuracy on weapon.

    Cheers!

    The above can be true. The problem is this: that I really don't like having multiple gear sets, and I am not big on minions. After playing WvW, solo dungeons, and farming Silverwastes, I felt I needed more passive sustain, which I found in Toughness. You could argue that Vitality would better synergize with necromancer shroud mechanics, but the fairly low scaling that heals have means that it is difficult to recover quickly without a full disengage [side note: had valkyrie gear at one point]. I elected to try out higher Toughness builds as a compromise, knowing that they "sucked" in the eyes of the community. The cavalier set turned out to be pretty solid, and healing is also more "efficient" with higher Toughness (note: even then, found that a small amount of Healing Power was beneficial, hence the crusader gear).

    The minions issue is more of a personal thing. I find that they just are not very effective in any type of PvP, and even in PvE, I find that I really need to run other utilities on the bar (shouts, signets, spectrals) to fit my play style. I do slot in minions in some circumstances (mainly Golem) when I know that I will need to do a lot of tanking.

  • I'd never argue against "preference." This is a game and definitely personal preferences in content that does not affect others' enjoyment are #1 reason to do anything.

    That said, the reason I talked about that was basically sometimes people do not realise how EASIER they could have had it. If you have played a berserker necro with good damage runes and sigils and dislike it, it is 100% fine to go whatever you want as long as you do not think that you'll be effective in raids or fractals with that (and I'm pretty sure you do not think that at all).

    What is considered to be bad by the community usually assumes the optimal conditions for a Machiavellian result. So I wouldn't take "this is bad" comments seriously.

    The only problem is then it is not easy to give you a benchmark. I can only speak about benchmarks I have experience in - and I have always used glass cannon stats in solo.

    Considering all these, though, 4800 dps seems pretty alright considering that is above the average I see in squads for open world. There are usually 5-10ish people who do high numbers and rest do 2-4k in open world squads against scaling bosses. This is most probably using "farming builds" though, geared towards getting the highest number of tags, so take that with a grain of salt.

    Cheers!

  • Ah, I missed your "not adjusted for gear" bit. Well, I never had a reason to test "without boons" but now I have something to do after I clean kitten poo I guess...

  • @Shivvies.3921 said:
    I also do not play necro a lot but I have a pretty newbie necro in my static who does 10-12k bursts in open world without boonshare. I THINK he can sustain 8-9kish if he can just stand there and dps if that gives you an idea.

    Cheers!

    Yes, i can certainly burst for 15+K without might stacks. Due to the prevalence of scourges in WvW, I actually played for a while with the express aim of no boon generation (no boons=nothing to "rip" or "flip"). Interestingly, it was actually pretty fun. The old Onslaught increased your shroud AA without the quickness boon, and I slotted fully traited Signets: Spite, Locust (for speed and heals), Vampirism (good for brawling).

  • @Shivvies.3921 said:
    Ah, I missed your "not adjusted for gear" bit. Well, I never had a reason to test "without boons" but now I have something to do after I clean kitten poo I guess...

    Yes, it is kind of interesting to try and see what your DPS is without oustide help on the golems. I understand that the "raid buffs" package of standard boons is almost always assumed in testing for good reasons (heck, the golem area is for raiders and raiding parties), but I spend 90+% percent of my time solo (either PvE or roaming WvW, and unranked sPvP you can make a solid argument is solo play if you don't have voice chat enabled), so it is good to know what you are capable of in sustained combat.

  • Disclaimers: I'm a semi-casual player who's just recently made it to scale 100 in fractals, never have raided and who has slow reflexes so my rotations are likely not really tight. Also this is pre coffee so with more focus I'd probably do a bit more. I kittened up a lot of chains due to it is being morning for me.

    Condi Chaos Mirage (full Viper) on average golem with 1 mil HP 9k; Power Soulbeast (Berserker Assassin mix) on average golem with 1 mil HP 12k; Power Staff Daredevil (full Berserker) on average golem with 1 mil HP 9k; Power Dagger Deadeye (full Berserker) on average golem with 1 mil HP 8k.

    I suspect about 40% more of these numbers would be the standard. I usually end up at 30-45% lower than the high end raiding group benchmarks.

    Cheers!

  • Aktium.9506Aktium.9506 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shivvies.3921 said:
    It is nearly impossible in solo conditions.

    uh huh

  • @Aktium.9506 said:

    @Shivvies.3921 said:
    It is nearly impossible in solo conditions.

    uh huh

    Sure, that is your average player with average experience doing solo overland...

    Right.

  • What I mean is REALLY good players with really good setups and a lot of experience are not benchmarks. I probably should have said "nearly impossible for most of us" instead of "nearly impossible" to be fair though.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nerah.8235 said:

    @Shivvies.3921 said:
    Ah, I missed your "not adjusted for gear" bit. Well, I never had a reason to test "without boons" but now I have something to do after I clean kitten poo I guess...

    Yes, it is kind of interesting to try and see what your DPS is without oustide help on the golems. I understand that the "raid buffs" package of standard boons is almost always assumed in testing for good reasons (heck, the golem area is for raiders and raiding parties), but I spend 90+% percent of my time solo (either PvE or roaming WvW, and unranked sPvP you can make a solid argument is solo play if you don't have voice chat enabled), so it is good to know what you are capable of in sustained combat.

    You cant have the same build for every mode and expect the same results. With that in > @Nerah.8235 said:

    The stat combo question is relevant (sort of): for most late game PvE content, some combination of berserker and marauder would probably be optimal. The issue is that I typically use a single all-purpose build for all modes, because I would rather "play" than grind out gear sets for each mode. It is not optimal, but generally it is "good enough". I like toughness gear, mainly because it helps a lot in PvP modes when you get ganked, while being decent (ymmv) for soloing stuff in PvE, like soloing dungeon content.

     > @"Voltekka.2375" said:
    

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    Cavalier stats? Reaper runes? Horrible setup for a dps role...

    As he's building this for solo play theirs not really a dps role.

    Cant really say, then, how much dps he/she should have.

    Above is strictly speaking true, as I am not building out for a raid DPS role, HOWEVER, if you assume that the community reported boonless golem DPS output is "optimal"--at least in a certain narrow sense--it gives you an indication of how effective your build is compared to that standard. It is nice to know this qualitatively, i.e. ~30-50% the DPS of "optimal" builds in my case [note: NOT adjusted for class, build, or gear]. This gives you a mental idea of the upper limits of stuff you could reasonably solo: in my case, I could probably solo the easiest content in some fractals and dungeons, but I would definitely need a group for content that is recognized as harder or require complicated mechanics.

    I also would like to see what traits you use. Would be really helpf. And on a side note, you cannot expect to have the same gear set for all modes. It just wont cut it. Sure, open world pve isnt an issue. But it will become an issue in fractals, for example. Necro is a class with a huge healthpool, great survivability. Hence why most people - myself included - run full zerker, at least in pve. Wvw is another thing altogether, as there is a certain armor threshold people dont cross cause they sacrifice too much dmg. Toughness is useless in wvw anyway, with the huge powercreep that we saw with PoF, and high toughness means you hit like a wet potato, while getting downed from the big bursts of thieves/spellbreakers/mirages. That being said, you should play however you like. Cheers!

  • @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Nerah.8235 said:

    @Shivvies.3921 said:
    Ah, I missed your "not adjusted for gear" bit. Well, I never had a reason to test "without boons" but now I have something to do after I clean kitten poo I guess...

    Yes, it is kind of interesting to try and see what your DPS is without oustide help on the golems. I understand that the "raid buffs" package of standard boons is almost always assumed in testing for good reasons (heck, the golem area is for raiders and raiding parties), but I spend 90+% percent of my time solo (either PvE or roaming WvW, and unranked sPvP you can make a solid argument is solo play if you don't have voice chat enabled), so it is good to know what you are capable of in sustained combat.

    You cant have the same build for every mode and expect the same results. With that in > @Nerah.8235 said:

    On that, we can probably disagree. For the most part you can expect the same type of results, BUT whatever the results, they will NOT be optimal for the mode you are in--regardless of mode--if you are using an "all-purpose build". For example, if my DPS results are 50% of optimal class averages using a single, defensive build, then I am actually quite happy, because I should get pretty similar results regardless of mode, and I don't need to grind any other gear. Bear in mind, my burst is much higher than the DPS, so I can still be relevant.

    The stat combo question is relevant (sort of): for most late game PvE content, some combination of berserker and marauder would probably be optimal. The issue is that I typically use a single all-purpose build for all modes, because I would rather "play" than grind out gear sets for each mode. It is not optimal, but generally it is "good enough". I like toughness gear, mainly because it helps a lot in PvP modes when you get ganked, while being decent (ymmv) for soloing stuff in PvE, like soloing dungeon content.

     > @"Voltekka.2375" said:
    

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    Cavalier stats? Reaper runes? Horrible setup for a dps role...

    As he's building this for solo play theirs not really a dps role.

    Cant really say, then, how much dps he/she should have.

    Above is strictly speaking true, as I am not building out for a raid DPS role, HOWEVER, if you assume that the community reported boonless golem DPS output is "optimal"--at least in a certain narrow sense--it gives you an indication of how effective your build is compared to that standard. It is nice to know this qualitatively, i.e. ~30-50% the DPS of "optimal" builds in my case [note: NOT adjusted for class, build, or gear]. This gives you a mental idea of the upper limits of stuff you could reasonably solo: in my case, I could probably solo the easiest content in some fractals and dungeons, but I would definitely need a group for content that is recognized as harder or require complicated mechanics.

    I also would like to see what traits you use. Would be really helpf. And on a side note, you cannot expect to have the same gear set for all modes. It just wont cut it. Sure, open world pve isnt an issue. But it will become an issue in fractals, for example.

    >

    I just started doing fractals (quite literally). I think I will be able to solo Fractal 1 in the next day or so. I plan on playing them solo for now. Ditto with Dungeons (I solo'd AC story mode, to include the cave troll that everyone seems to skip).

    Necro is a class with a huge healthpool, great survivability. Hence why most people - myself included - run full zerker, at least in pve. Wvw is another thing altogether, as there is a certain armor threshold people don't cross cause they sacrifice too much dmg. Toughness is useless in wvw anyway, with the huge powercreep that we saw with PoF, and high toughness means you hit like a wet potato, while getting downed from the big bursts of thieves/spellbreakers/mirages.

    >

    I have found that I can survive power burst OK. Condi burst is a bit harder, but doable. I can 1v1 OK (certainly get my fair share of losses), but it seems like I am always on the wrong end of 1v2, 1v3, 1v4. Outnumbered fights are very difficult: I get focussed down rapidly. I find the extra damage cannot help there: too many blocks, etc. Dueling Thieves and Mesmer will typically win through attrition: they can easily reset and shadowstep/teleport back, or go full stealth. Eventually, they will whittle through any sustain, and I can't flee. The absolute hardest counters I have seen are Soubeast with bow and full ghost DE. If I don't have a +1 for those, I am dead.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭

    Power reaper would be 16-17k without adjusting the build for solo play. Could be higher with adjusted build. Condi Holo pretty much the same. Condi builds are usually better without boons since they dont suffer that much when not at crit cap. Condi rene should be pretty good aswell.
    Well nothing comes close to the broken abomination power chrono. It's not that hard to play tbh. Just CS the signet and use utilities off cd and win. Enjoy extremly high self alacrity and quickness while just doing a damage rotation.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2018

    It is rather unlikely that we will ever see solo benchmarks equal to those used for raids nowadays as there is little need to and interest in completely min-maxing solo build damage for PvE at the current point. Thus there are no "typical" numbers unless we consider really bad ones outside of a few rare cases.
    It may become a thing if we ever see permanent challenging solo content if you use the seasonal content and some of the build guides it spawned as an indication. All though, that often came down to "easiest" rather than "best" or anything like "highest DPS".

    That said, I think powerful solo builds are a lot easier to accomplish than it used to be. Might in particular has been given out quite freely to all elite specs. Fury is achievable one way or another. There are a few builds I could think out of my head and how to change things around to make up for the missing boon supports and everything they'd usually provide you with.
    But that's pretty much all I'd bother with and that seems to apply to most players. You are already able to solo almost anything by just playing a boonless META DPS or at most by adjusting a thing or two on the fly. There is also the fact that people seem to value mobility, though less important with mounts, or defenses more than simple damage in solo content. Suggested Open World builds on Metabattle always have some combination of damage, defenses, mobility and self-boons.

    Figuring out the potential DPS of PvP or WvW roaming builds seems pointless to me, or at least anything on the golem. There are too many variables and different situations whenever enemy players are involved to make that anything but a waste of time.

    Nothing is particularly hard if you divide it into small jobs. Henry Ford

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2018

    For solo reaper I would go improvised 'demolisher'

    something like this
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQBIBAAiBA-jhBXABHpOQPqUEkKKAo8r19HeQJIA-e

    I dream of elves in GW2.

  • For solo reaper go marauders at least. Good damage and solid bulk.

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