Raiding is on the verge of destroying huge segments of the GW2 community, if it hasn't already - Page 3 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Raiding is on the verge of destroying huge segments of the GW2 community, if it hasn't already

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  • FrizzFreston.5290FrizzFreston.5290 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Just to be fair with the game, these are the statistics since Heart of Thorns:
    Heart of Thorns: 66.937%
    Out of the Shadows: 60.676%
    Rising Flames: 58.131%
    A Crack in the Ice: 56.343%
    The Head of the Snake: 51.405%
    Flashpoint: 50.272%
    One Path Ends: 47.145%
    Path of Fire: 59.476%
    Daybreak: 44.121%
    A Bug in the System: 38,387%
    Long Live the Lich: 34.108%
    A Star to Guide Us: 26.049%

    Just to be a bit more accurate than completion rates, and drawing random conclusions, some of the starting rates (too lazy to find them all):
    It is still not including people who have those unlocked, who havent, but are still playing ofcourse.
    And not accounting for age of the content either.

    Heart of Thorns: 92,031%
    Path of Fire: 76,485%
    Daybreak: 54,070%
    A Bug in the System: 44,023%
    Long Live the Lich: 42.791%
    A Star to Guide Us: 31,455%

    Also activity % of a random 24h in a random weekend (sort of random, extra life event) : 28,520%

    Also interesting is the birthdays %s:
    1y: 89
    2y: 81
    3y: 71
    4y: 58
    5y: 46
    6y: 24

    Why you guys stop at completion % of story is weird to me. So much talk about this and that being the right data but no one actually looking it up.

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Anet isn't making content for me, therefore they are not making content for anyone.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @FrizzFreston.5290 said:
    Just to be a bit more accurate than completion rates, and drawing random conclusions, some of the starting rates (too lazy to find them all):

    Well the idea was to show how many -completed- the Raids, not how many entered them. If you want to see how many started an episode, then you could also use the amount of players that killed the first boss of a raid wing at least since there is no achievement for simply entering a Raid wing. I thought comparing the completion of a raid wing with the completion of an episode would be more appropriate than comparing how many started an episode with how many completed a raid wing. To keep the comparison as similar as possible.

    Here, I'll post the "complete" results, starting/completing:
    Heart of Thorns: 92.031% / 66.937%
    Out of the Shadows: 68.238% / 60.676%
    Rising Flames: 63.353% / 58.131%
    A Crack in the Ice: 63.931% / 56.343%
    The Head of the Snake: 60.204% / 51.405%
    Flashpoint: 56.464% / 50.272%
    One Path Ends: 52.946% / 47.145%
    Path of Fire: 76.878% / 59.476%
    Daybreak: 54.070% / 44.121%
    A Bug in the System: 44.023% / 38,387%
    Long Live the Lich: 42.791% / 34.108%
    A Star to Guide Us: 31.455% / 26.049%

    It doesn't really change my conclusion, only reinforcing it by showing that more players started Path of Fire, than Out of the Shadows.

  • Just a flesh wound.3589Just a flesh wound.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2018

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @FrizzFreston.5290 said:
    Just to be a bit more accurate than completion rates, and drawing random conclusions, some of the starting rates (too lazy to find them all):

    Well the idea was to show how many -completed- the Raids, not how many entered them. If you want to see how many started an episode, then you could also use the amount of players that killed the first boss of a raid wing at least since there is no achievement for simply entering a Raid wing. I thought comparing the completion of a raid wing with the completion of an episode would be more appropriate than comparing how many started an episode with how many completed a raid wing. To keep the comparison as similar as possible.

    Here, I'll post the "complete" results, starting/completing:
    Heart of Thorns: 92.031% / 66.937%
    Out of the Shadows: 68.238% / 60.676%
    Rising Flames: 63.353% / 58.131%
    A Crack in the Ice: 63.931% / 56.343%
    The Head of the Snake: 60.204% / 51.405%
    Flashpoint: 56.464% / 50.272%
    One Path Ends: 52.946% / 47.145%
    Path of Fire: 76.878% / 59.476%
    Daybreak: 54.070% / 44.121%
    A Bug in the System: 44.023% / 38,387%
    Long Live the Lich: 42.791% / 34.108%
    A Star to Guide Us: 31.455% / 26.049%

    It doesn't really change my conclusion, only reinforcing it by showing that more players started Path of Fire, than Out of the Shadows.

    There’s another factor in a discussion of percent done, how much time has elapsed for each.

    Heart of Thorns was released 3 years ago. Path of Fire was released 1 year ago. That means players have had two more years to complete Heart of Thorns achievements than Path of Fire, and for all we know by looking at gw2efficiency the starting/completion rates for Heart of Thorns was the same or lower at the one year mark. That goes the same for all Living Story episodes, the longer the time has elapsed the higher the starting/completion rates will be because of people starting and finishing behind the main, initial completions. Looking at completion rates without factoring the difference in elapsed time for each or knowing what percent of players are doing it, but slower, means those numbers are not accurate as raw numbers.

    Be careful what you ask for
    ANet might give it to you.

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  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Just a flesh wound.3589 said:
    There’s another factor in a discussion of percent done, how much time has elapsed for each.

    This factor can be applied to Raids too :)
    Keep in mind that I used the episode completion rates to counter the doom and gloom that Raids are losing interest because Wing 6 (available for 2 months) has far lower (arguable) completion rates than Wing 5 (which has been available for 1 year)

  • Raids are not destroying the game. The players are destroying it. The GW2 community as a whole has immensely gotten more mouthier, rude, unhelpful, toxic, I could go on. Take matriarch for example, the reason why she flies up and becomes untlattackable is failure to cc. Roll this over to a raid boss where breaking the cc bar is required or you insta wipe. Nobody wants to spend 3 hours on a raid boss they have killed already because someone's dps is too low or they are failing mechanics because they cannot comprehend mechanics or multiple things at once. Sit in a corner doing nothing for 3 hours, no music no talking, no interacting. Then get up and tell me you are happy and accomplished with the time you just wasted with no reward.

    The divide for casual players vs experienced will always be there. Think of it from the point of view as a gym membership. You want that body? Put the work in. You want to be good at gw2 raids? Put the work in. If you don't like how the raiding community us then don't raid. There are plenty of beginning raid guilds out there with raid training discords. Everyone in here asking "What is the raid training discord?" Is a casual human being. Google. Use the brain. Be a go getter and figure it out for yourself.

    LFG is not a tool for the casual player. Spare the experienced people and go look else where in training discords or start your own squad. You do not need a commander tag. Put "Semi experienced VG full of casuals chill LF 1 tank 1 healer" and go. If you don't get a boss kill... hmm I wonder why?

    Strive to be a better person. Is all it boils down to whether you are a toxic raider, control yourself and remember you were once in their shoes. Or a casual, don't get offended so easily that something isn't fair.

  • @Salicia.5943 said:

    The divide for casual players vs experienced will always be there. Think of it from the point of view as a gym membership. You want that body? Put the work in. You want to be good at gw2 raids? Put the work in. If you don't like how the raiding community us then don't raid. There are plenty of beginning raid guilds out there with raid training discords. Everyone in here asking "What is the raid training discord?" Is a casual human being. Google. Use the brain. Be a go getter and figure it out for yourself.

    LFG is not a tool for the casual player.

    While this is true for raiding, LFG tools in some other games (LFR, for instance), and in the other parts of GW2 PvE (barring maybe T4 FotM) very much are tools for the drop-in PWYW player.

    ... or start your own squad. You do not need a commander tag. Put "Semi experienced VG full of casuals chill LF 1 tank 1 healer" and go. If you don't get a boss kill... hmm I wonder why?

    The nature of raid content is that it is aimed at the dedicated player. At this late date, it's going to be exponentially harder to find enough dedicated players to stick around long enough to work through a beginning raider learning curve. The long-time dedicated players, by definition, started raids when they first dropped. New players who are so dedicated are going to be willing to work through training groups as a means to get up to speed. The leftovers are those who want to raid but lack the dedication to do what the raiding community expects. The pity is that gaming in general goes out of its way to cater to the drop-in-and-succeed mentality.

    Strive to be a better person. Is all it boils down to whether you are a toxic raider, control yourself and remember you were once in their shoes. Or a casual, don't get offended so easily that something isn't fair.

    While this is excellent advice, it will remain unheeded for the most part. Games are peoples' diversions, pastimes or hobbies. A lot of people -- on both sides of the dedication divide -- don't want to be thwarted, and that is not going to change.

    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- Santayana

  • @IndigoSundown.5419 said:
    The nature of raid content is that it is aimed at the dedicated player. At this late date, it's going to be exponentially harder to find enough dedicated players to stick around long enough to work through a beginning raider learning curve. The long-time dedicated players, by definition, started raids when they first dropped. New players who are so dedicated are going to be willing to work through training groups as a means to get up to speed. The leftovers are those who want to raid but lack the dedication to do what the raiding community expects. The pity is that gaming in general goes out of its way to cater to the drop-in-and-succeed mentality.

    >

    I disagree. There are so many experienced players in the raid scene that runs scheduled trainings for a raid boss, in a relaxed acene, will even help you with golem training. These casual players have no righs to wiggle into a more advanced group and then complain they have to ping kp. To this day I still run into Noth, from raiders inn teaching from the ground up and the group gets kills. These people are just looking in the wrong place. They don't have a dedication to figure out why things happen in a fight and that's what is wrong. I know that gaming is a "hobby" but that doesn't mean you should spend your time sucking at it. Ask questions. Read guides. Playing for 2 hours a week every Saturday with the proper gear and a group setting, you will eventually get a kill.

    Funny story: I was trying to teach a group how to VG and we were lacking cc. The warrior slots battle standard while our 2 druids had elite spirits. He equipped rifle and gs, had vitality gear, 2 banners, and a Powe signet and healing signet, only gave the group 8 might, 2k dps and we still failed the break bar. Even though I admired his want to be the solution to our problem... he needed to comform to the meta and refused to do so. I dropped the group, guild, never ran raids with them again.

  • @Salicia.5943 said:
    Raids are not destroying the game. The players are destroying it. The GW2 community as a whole has immensely gotten more mouthier, rude, unhelpful, toxic, I could go on. Take matriarch for example, the reason why she flies up and becomes untlattackable is failure to cc. Roll this over to a raid boss where breaking the cc bar is required or you insta wipe. Nobody wants to spend 3 hours on a raid boss they have killed already because someone's dps is too low or they are failing mechanics because they cannot comprehend mechanics or multiple things at once. Sit in a corner doing nothing for 3 hours, no music no talking, no interacting. Then get up and tell me you are happy and accomplished with the time you just wasted with no reward.

    The divide for casual players vs experienced will always be there. Think of it from the point of view as a gym membership. You want that body? Put the work in. You want to be good at gw2 raids? Put the work in. If you don't like how the raiding community us then don't raid. There are plenty of beginning raid guilds out there with raid training discords. Everyone in here asking "What is the raid training discord?" Is a casual human being. Google. Use the brain. Be a go getter and figure it out for yourself.

    LFG is not a tool for the casual player. Spare the experienced people and go look else where in training discords or start your own squad. You do not need a commander tag. Put "Semi experienced VG full of casuals chill LF 1 tank 1 healer" and go. If you don't get a boss kill... hmm I wonder why?

    Strive to be a better person. Is all it boils down to whether you are a toxic raider, control yourself and remember you were once in their shoes. Or a casual, don't get offended so easily that something isn't fair.

    Do you have some documentation that LFG is only for experienced players, or is this one of those toxic responses to "filthy casuals" that supposedly doesn't exist in GW 2?

  • Hey guys and girls, i wanted to say something that could try to explain raiding to people that haven't raided before.

    For the start let's say i'm raiding for 8 months and i'm already over 250LI. And i play every role from chrono to dps.
    Okay now that i introduced myself, let's say like this. Raiding is like hobby for me. Like playing guitar.
    If you want to play guitar you have to learn chords first. So in raiding if you want to raid you have to learn your dps or support rotation.
    Then you have to learn songs so you can play some for your friends. So in raiding you need to know, no way other, how certain bosses works and their mechanics.
    Once you know how to play chords and what chords to use for song you can play it easily. So in raiding if you know your dps rotation good enough and you know how certain boss works there is no way you gonna struggle.

    And i think for everything in life you need curiosity. If you are curious enough for raiding you eventually gonna do all CMs and have over 250LIs. It comes with time , nothing comes over night , right?
    And also let's clear this, i don't do raiding for legendary armor. I'm too lazy to collect stuff to be honest, of course at some point i'm gonna put some time in doing it but only when i get will to do it.
    Raids are fun for me and i just love how every boss is different and challenging in a way i can enjoy him.

  • maxwelgm.4315maxwelgm.4315 Member ✭✭✭

    This topic has come a long way, no use responding to all of it but, I do agree with OP as someone who raids regularly (I just quit my static due to getting a new job). There is a rift and Anet has created it. They have done it nicely and made it so that you can cross to the other side, but it's there. Raids are exclusive by design and that's OK (now looking @OP I guess). They are made to people who want that little extra push to have to get better at something, and that want the little thrill of achieving something they couldn't even touch during the first tries. The feeling is increasingly hard to achieve due to no vertical progression and there are only so many mechanics you can come up with, so some people stop playing frequently, go do something else, and others challenge themselves even further by speedclearing, low-man runs, among other player imposed handicaps used to enhance encounters. Nevertheless, the content is crafted (I'd say even better than in other games) to take this into consideration, and players that want to play like they do with the rest of the game are not going to feel at ease in that mode.

    There is a world of other stuff to do outside of raids (I know it, I do a little of every piece of content in this game since release) and so it's not as bad as it seems that this particular content is out of reach for some players. @ the raiders replying here: yes the content is out of reach, and we should not use our own experiences and feelings to affirm that "anyone" can raid. Content that anyone can do is Living World, and arguably WvW where numbers can trivialize your personal difficulties and still let you have plenty of fun, but in raids you have to perform or, at the very least, you'll be lying on the ground while others play the game for you. There is nothing inherently wrong with that either, there is a time and place for people who want challenge as much as there is for people who want their gaming time to be as relaxing as possible.

    As for the group aspect of raids, well this is intrinsically tied to the game mode, and has to be considered as an integral part of gameplay. You can't just come up and say "I'm decent but can't find a group to raid, how unfair" without begging the question "To how many people did you actively attempt to show you're decent?" or "Did you talk to people before you tried to start playing?" I hope this doesn't come out as obtuse, but the social aspect and dealing with others is part of the gameplay, both to people who enjoy it and join statics and what not, but also to people who might consider it a hurdle and only want to pug and go into fights without much interaction. No matter how you see this peer to peer interaction, it is part of the experience and in reality the time you spend in LFG or joining a static or socializing with your fellow raiders actually should count as "raiding". It's like playing a sport like soccer and pretending the time you spend in the locker room with your teammates doesn't really count towards the overall experience, so there's also that for most non-raiders to deal with and acknowledge.

  • IndigoSundown.5419IndigoSundown.5419 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2018

    @Salicia.5943 said:

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:
    The nature of raid content is that it is aimed at the dedicated player. At this late date, it's going to be exponentially harder to find enough dedicated players to stick around long enough to work through a beginning raider learning curve. The long-time dedicated players, by definition, started raids when they first dropped. New players who are so dedicated are going to be willing to work through training groups as a means to get up to speed. The leftovers are those who want to raid but lack the dedication to do what the raiding community expects. The pity is that gaming in general goes out of its way to cater to the drop-in-and-succeed mentality.

    >

    I disagree. There are so many experienced players in the raid scene that runs scheduled trainings for a raid boss, in a relaxed acene, will even help you with golem training. These casual players have no righs to wiggle into a more advanced group and then complain they have to ping kp. To this day I still run into Noth, from raiders inn teaching from the ground up and the group gets kills. These people are just looking in the wrong place. They don't have a dedication to figure out why things happen in a fight and that's what is wrong. I know that gaming is a "hobby" but that doesn't mean you should spend your time sucking at it. Ask questions. Read guides. Playing for 2 hours a week every Saturday with the proper gear and a group setting, you will eventually get a kill.

    Funny story: I was trying to teach a group how to VG and we were lacking cc. The warrior slots battle standard while our 2 druids had elite spirits. He equipped rifle and gs, had vitality gear, 2 banners, and a Powe signet and healing signet, only gave the group 8 might, 2k dps and we still failed the break bar. Even though I admired his want to be the solution to our problem... he needed to comform to the meta and refused to do so. I dropped the group, guild, never ran raids with them again.

    Wait. You say you disagree with my point. Then you agree that some people do not want to exhibit the dedication needed to listen and adapt to the needs of the encounter... Surely this is a failure on either my part to state my point or a misunderstanding on your part.

    The point was, that there are players who want to adapt (to learn) raids, and players who want raids (and other players) to adapt to them.

    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- Santayana

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2018

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Salicia.5943 said:
    Raids are not destroying the game. The players are destroying it. The GW2 community as a whole has immensely gotten more mouthier, rude, unhelpful, toxic, I could go on. Take matriarch for example, the reason why she flies up and becomes untlattackable is failure to cc. Roll this over to a raid boss where breaking the cc bar is required or you insta wipe. Nobody wants to spend 3 hours on a raid boss they have killed already because someone's dps is too low or they are failing mechanics because they cannot comprehend mechanics or multiple things at once. Sit in a corner doing nothing for 3 hours, no music no talking, no interacting. Then get up and tell me you are happy and accomplished with the time you just wasted with no reward.

    The divide for casual players vs experienced will always be there. Think of it from the point of view as a gym membership. You want that body? Put the work in. You want to be good at gw2 raids? Put the work in. If you don't like how the raiding community us then don't raid. There are plenty of beginning raid guilds out there with raid training discords. Everyone in here asking "What is the raid training discord?" Is a casual human being. Google. Use the brain. Be a go getter and figure it out for yourself.

    LFG is not a tool for the casual player. Spare the experienced people and go look else where in training discords or start your own squad. You do not need a commander tag. Put "Semi experienced VG full of casuals chill LF 1 tank 1 healer" and go. If you don't get a boss kill... hmm I wonder why?

    Strive to be a better person. Is all it boils down to whether you are a toxic raider, control yourself and remember you were once in their shoes. Or a casual, don't get offended so easily that something isn't fair.

    Do you have some documentation that LFG is only for experienced players, or is this one of those toxic responses to "filthy casuals" that supposedly doesn't exist in GW 2?

    Nothing in the game prevents a non experienced player from using it. However in practical use cases, a vast majority of lfg listings will ask for kp. You maybe get that one training group once every blue moon but directing new players to the lfg with the hopes of finding a group to meet their needs is an exercise in futility and frustration. You're better off pursuing the other avenues suggested ie. Join a training discord community or find a guild. That being said, the only way for the casual community to find more groups in lfg is if they start making them.

  • @IndigoSundown.5419 said:
    Wait. You say you disagree with my point. Then you agree that some people do not want to exhibit the dedication needed to listen and adapt to the needs of the encounter... Surely this is a failure on either my part to state my point or a misunderstanding on your part.

    I was disagreeing with you statement of -> "At this late date, it's going to be exponentially harder to find enough dedicated players to stick around long enough to work through a beginning raider learning curve."

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    Do you have some documentation that LFG is only for experienced players, or is this one of those toxic responses to "filthy casuals" that supposedly doesn't exist in GW 2?

    I do not but OP stated that she opened up LFG and they were all listed as "ping KP" which you can only get by killing a boss. (Unless you fake the item code). Don't get me wrong I understand what the OP is going through but she needs to do training in order to get KP then she can join any of the LFG groups that are not listed as "Semi-exp" or "Training". Gotta start at the bottom first. Trust me when I say it's not just "Casuals" that have this problem. Experienced people on the fight have trouble as well getting into groups. If you don't ping the exact KP they want (without them telling you btw) you get kicked. The community and requirements is broken but I still believe it boils down to the people being the issue and that's not something that Anet has the control or power to fix.

  • @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Salicia.5943 said:
    Raids are not destroying the game. The players are destroying it. The GW2 community as a whole has immensely gotten more mouthier, rude, unhelpful, toxic, I could go on. Take matriarch for example, the reason why she flies up and becomes untlattackable is failure to cc. Roll this over to a raid boss where breaking the cc bar is required or you insta wipe. Nobody wants to spend 3 hours on a raid boss they have killed already because someone's dps is too low or they are failing mechanics because they cannot comprehend mechanics or multiple things at once. Sit in a corner doing nothing for 3 hours, no music no talking, no interacting. Then get up and tell me you are happy and accomplished with the time you just wasted with no reward.

    The divide for casual players vs experienced will always be there. Think of it from the point of view as a gym membership. You want that body? Put the work in. You want to be good at gw2 raids? Put the work in. If you don't like how the raiding community us then don't raid. There are plenty of beginning raid guilds out there with raid training discords. Everyone in here asking "What is the raid training discord?" Is a casual human being. Google. Use the brain. Be a go getter and figure it out for yourself.

    LFG is not a tool for the casual player. Spare the experienced people and go look else where in training discords or start your own squad. You do not need a commander tag. Put "Semi experienced VG full of casuals chill LF 1 tank 1 healer" and go. If you don't get a boss kill... hmm I wonder why?

    Strive to be a better person. Is all it boils down to whether you are a toxic raider, control yourself and remember you were once in their shoes. Or a casual, don't get offended so easily that something isn't fair.

    Do you have some documentation that LFG is only for experienced players, or is this one of those toxic responses to "filthy casuals" that supposedly doesn't exist in GW 2?

    Nothing in the game prevents a non experienced player from using it. However in practical use cases, a vast majority of lfg listings will ask for kp. You maybe get that one training group once every blue moon but directing new players to the lfg with the hopes of finding a group to meet their needs is an exercise in futility and frustration. You're better off pursuing the other avenues suggested ie. Join a training discord community or find a guild. That being said, the only way for the casual community to find more groups in lfg is if they start making them.

    I think you have this backwards, to an extent. The best way to keep "undesirables " out of your group is to form static groups. Then you never have to worry about who you're going to get when it's time to run a raid, or any other group content that one may wish to run. You even listed a resource to do it, with the discord servers. If you don't have to list it on LFG to fill it, you don't have to worry about who's in it.

  • @Salicia.5943 said:

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:
    Wait. You say you disagree with my point. Then you agree that some people do not want to exhibit the dedication needed to listen and adapt to the needs of the encounter... Surely this is a failure on either my part to state my point or a misunderstanding on your part.

    I was disagreeing with you statement of -> "At this late date, it's going to be exponentially harder to find enough dedicated players to stick around long enough to work through a beginning raider learning curve."

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    Do you have some documentation that LFG is only for experienced players, or is this one of those toxic responses to "filthy casuals" that supposedly doesn't exist in GW 2?

    I do not but OP stated that she opened up LFG and they were all listed as "ping KP" which you can only get by killing a boss. (Unless you fake the item code). Don't get me wrong I understand what the OP is going through but she needs to do training in order to get KP then she can join any of the LFG groups that are not listed as "Semi-exp" or "Training". Gotta start at the bottom first. Trust me when I say it's not just "Casuals" that have this problem. Experienced people on the fight have trouble as well getting into groups. If you don't ping the exact KP they want (without them telling you btw) you get kicked. The community and requirements is broken but I still believe it boils down to the people being the issue and that's not something that Anet has the control or power to fix.

    I sort of answered this in my previous post, but we cross posted. The best way to handle that is, as stated, static groups, and with discord servers up and running, it should be pretty easy to fill them in discord, and then run the content. It's what's been done in every guild I've ever been in. We'd fill from the guild, or we'd run short, depending on what it was.

  • @Salicia.5943 said:

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:
    Wait. You say you disagree with my point. Then you agree that some people do not want to exhibit the dedication needed to listen and adapt to the needs of the encounter... Surely this is a failure on either my part to state my point or a misunderstanding on your part.

    I was disagreeing with you statement of -> "At this late date, it's going to be exponentially harder to find enough dedicated players to stick around long enough to work through a beginning raider learning curve."

    And I was speaking about people forming their own groups and hoping to find nine other new raid hopefuls willing to stick around through the failures, not people joining training raids hosted by experienced raiders. You even said...

    or start your own squad. You do not need a commander tag. Put "Semi experienced VG full of casuals chill LF 1 tank 1 healer" and go. If you don't get a boss kill... hmm I wonder why?

    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- Santayana

  • Talindra.4958Talindra.4958 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @FrizzFreston.5290 said:

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:
    If they didn't have raids, you'd have elitists in dungeons or fractals or whatnot. The good thing about raids is they're confined there now.

    I seriously dont think theyre confined anywhere. Its really just the content that both needs large amount of repitition for some of the interesting rewards and require some rather mild coordination.

    Since most people dont have that much time putting requirements is just one way to filter ppl so their success chance is higher and take less time. They dont want to bother explaining the whole thing everytime and rather just play.

    This is partially correct.

    There is however the other side that most people don't get. Training people is mentally taxing. Sure sometimes you get the people who research, care and geniunely want to improve. However those are far from the norm. From my time training people and not in one of the bigger Raid training groups is a lot of push back, crying and people adamant that they know better and outright refusing any help, critique or otherwise.

    I had a unique experience where a group I was attempting to train on vg said that having green circles and blue circles was too confusing and they couldn't remember which circle did what so they started verbally abusing anet for "making 2 different colored circles". This was after repeated explanations and 10+ pulls. Some folks are simply not capable and that frustration manifests in crying and anger.

    Then you simplify it
    big circle=stand in it
    small circle=dont stand in it.

    I actually would give up .. wouldn't pull through 10+ pulls.
    Anyway.. wouldn't it be easier to teach them no green vg :p

    Death is Energy [DIE] in EU
    Envoy's Herald, EAoA, CoZ, VitV, DD, SS, The Eternal, LNHB, Champion Magus, Champion Phantom, Wondrous Achiever etc.

  • Shivvies.3921Shivvies.3921 Member ✭✭✭

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    Not everyone uses gw2efficienty there those numbers comes from. And those numbers are time specific like latest month

    To be fair, those who do not use efficiency would be much much more likely to be maybe vaguely aware of the existence of raids but a "rift" concept would be ne to them.

  • @Shivvies.3921 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    Not everyone uses gw2efficienty there those numbers comes from. And those numbers are time specific like latest month

    To be fair, those who do not use efficiency would be much much more likely to be maybe vaguely aware of the existence of raids but a "rift" concept would be ne to them.

    To be really fair, I tend to avoid all the external sites. While some may indeed be helpful, others lead to "buy this hack". I'm also aware of raids, w/out having to venture outside of ANet's "grounds".

  • Abelisk.4527Abelisk.4527 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2018

    Guild Wars 2 is a game. Something you go on to find entertainment, it's not something that should be placed on very high priority on your life plans (unless you're a known streamer/commit to GW2 for other reasons, usually for publicity).

    That being said, raid trainers often work like this:
    1) Meet up once a week, and hope to beat the boss.
    2) The training run usually fails at some point in the wing, players have to wait a whole week to try again.
    3) Each trainer can only get 9 other people, so space is limited.
    4) The runs are not only done on certain days, but certain hours usually later in the day. Personally, I do my homework in the later hours before getting ready to go to bed. There are also people working real-life jobs.
    5) I suppose you could talk with a Trainer to reschedule, but a) trainers are sacrificing their own time to train and b) other inexperienced players may be discontent with your reschedule.
    6) Bosses you want to beat may not even be considered by the trainer as the trainer(s) may have a different wing in mind.

    To sum it up, it's kind of messy to rely on training groups. Training guilds may be more easier than Discords since it'll likely be more direct to talk with trainers. Someone above said they could take 1-2 inexperienced members with them on a run which is a great idea, but even that number is small.

    I think some form of automatic queue system that, depending on settings, matches players up would be a good start. This system could also be implemented for dungeons. I started playing GW2 in 2016 and when I wanted to try a dungeon I was confused on how to find a group of players. LFG works, but it's very broad and easy to get the "wrong" people for the team--"wrong" as in unnecessary builds.

    ...so yes, I'm suggesting the queue system to have a build system that detects player stats and maybe even utilities, and invites those players based on the settings of the party's queue. This streamlined system may make it more attractive to the playerbase. If you don't want PUGS on your team you can set your party to private which is how the current system works.

  • maxwelgm.4315maxwelgm.4315 Member ✭✭✭

    Unsurprisingly, this topic has been moved from the general forums to the raid one, and should be let to fade away since discussion is now unilateral and boring.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I’m still thinking that Anet will eventually cap raids at some point. Whether it’s 10,15 or some other number.

    In raids like WoW, generally you have what 6 or 7 raids per expansion that become obsolete the second a new expansion comes out and are eventually soloable.

    The difference with GW2 Raids is they aren’t obsolete. The challenge for the most part still remains.

  • @Abelisk.4527 said:
    Guild Wars 2 is a game. Something you go on to find entertainment, it's not something that should be placed on very high priority on your life plans (unless you're a known streamer/commit to GW2 for other reasons, usually for publicity).

    That being said, raid trainers often work like this:
    1) Meet up once a week, and hope to beat the boss.
    2) The training run usually fails at some point in the wing, players have to wait a whole week to try again.
    3) Each trainer can only get 9 other people, so space is limited.
    4) The runs are not only done on certain days, but certain hours usually later in the day. Personally, I do my homework in the later hours before getting ready to go to bed. There are also people working real-life jobs.
    5) I suppose you could talk with a Trainer to reschedule, but a) trainers are sacrificing their own time to train and b) other inexperienced players may be discontent with your reschedule.
    6) Bosses you want to beat may not even be considered by the trainer as the trainer(s) may have a different wing in mind.

    That is absolutely not how it works o.o, on the training discords Trainers rarely have scheduled trains, they just do them when they feel like no matter the hour, tho i gotta admit is easier to find people to fill the squad on peak hours, during off hours is just hader to fill within the discord.

    Now to the point of the OP, the reason people ask for those on LFG, is because if you are on LFG you want your kill and thats it, you dont want to keep wiping due some inexperienced players, and yes there are many raids when 1 person can wipe the party, also since there are many raids with many different mechanics, no1 is going to Type THAT much information every time, plus inexperienced players benefits alot from mechanics callouts which is something you cant really do without voice communication, hence why Training discords are a huge thing to help the community, and LFG should not be used as a mean to learn.

  • So what is a 'semi-casual', "competent-but-not-uber DPS", though "wants-to-learn" supposed to do?

    Get into a training guild. I'm pretty bad myself, I remeber my first VG kill, I'd spent ~8hours practicing it before we managed to get the kill. The point is that I am done with training myself, I just want to get my kills. If I want to help I join training runs, but if I want to do stuff in a timely manner (namely get it done so I have some time for anime and sleep before uni) I ask for kp because kp means you're not a newb.

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Just deal with it peeps, that's how the game is.

    There will always people looking only for decent players. Let's be real here, people just want to complete the raid, not interested to carry people.

    OP is just simply complaining because there are so many people looking for decent players, it is slowly killing the game due to no new blood, little people willing to help train new people to do raid.

    Then again, let's be real here. If many really cares about such matter, they would not have been so exclusive. That is the reality we live in, people just want to complete raid, they don't care about any other things.

    Another reality is no people respect so-called training organisation or guild, it is a thankless thing, everybody knows it.

    At the end of the day, people only cares about completing or not completing, win or lose, benefits or no benefits. That is all. Welcome to gaming.

    Founder & Retired Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
    Henge of Denravi
    https://discord.gg/P5dj7fd

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 29, 2018

    This is one of the reasons why I play MOBA's when I am looking for challenging fights, and play mobile games when I am looking to relax and unwind.. MMO's just don't really offer either of those anymore. GW2 used to.. but not anymore.

    I wish them well tho. Maybe next expansion I'll see what they cook up.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Don't join groups or play with people who don't want the same things in the game as you do. They won't like you, you won't like them.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cattastrophy.2874 said:
    Don't join groups or play with people who don't want the same things in the game as you do. They won't like you, you won't like them.

    That's one problem with raid system now. It mixes people with different goals in the same content, while at the same time being demanding enough that even small differences in opinion/behaviour can cause tempers to flare.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cattastrophy.2874 said:
    Don't join groups or play with people who don't want the same things in the game as you do. They won't like you, you won't like them.

    That's one problem with raid system now. It mixes people with different goals in the same content, while at the same time being demanding enough that even small differences in opinion/behaviour can cause tempers to flare.

    I think thats a problem with almost every mode. Ticket farmers in PVP and WVW who just want rewards and dont want to enjoy the mode itself clash constantly with the more hardcore players of that mode.

    I think open world PVE and raids have LESS of a problem than the competitive modes because lfg allows you to clearly advertise what your groups intentions are and find like minded people, while also giving a fair justification to kick people that ignore those intentions. In competitive modes, theres no way to filter so its more toxic.

  • I think GW2 is split between raiders and non-raiders in GW2. Players don't know much about each other, the content the other side likes, the differences in time spend, difficulties with mechanics and so on. And yes, this is a problem. All of this was debated lengthily years ago, but:

    -If a community is split into different groups both groups will lack a broader understanding of each other. No new open world content, but a raid? ->complaints ("too many raids, but no open world content"). Legendary armour raid exclusive? Complaints. Not enough raid content? -> Complaints.

    -Suggestions as "join a training run" or "join a raid guild" miss the point. This works fine for dedicated people which really want to become active raid players. It's an useless suggestion for most other players. More casual players want to experience the content, do it maybe once/twice and not farm the content weekly. Join a guild, get the kill and leave? I'm sure most raid guilds prefer to recruit permanent members and not leeches. If players play the content they can figure out if they like it. Improve, join a specialised guild, spend time. That's the "natural" approach. Not joining a guild and investing lots of time beforehand - just to figure out you don't like the content.

    -Time spend varies a lot. For an hardcore player 10 hours of training is can be one weekend, for a casual it might be two months. Those 10 hours of training are an investment for future runs. A hardcoreplayer does maybe 100 runs, so 0,1 hours of training per run. A casual does two runs and spend then 5 hours of training per run. Asuming both require the same time for training, which is unrealistic.

    -Yes, no one is forced to raid. But GW2 seriously lacks teamcontent. As example: my guilds "fixed team" hasn't played for roughly half a year, we all played this week again for the first time - and got not much to do. Open world is kitten content for groups. Real, good, group content are raids, fractals and dungeons. They, as most more casual players, spend less time ingame, but also don't really enjoy repeating the same content hundreds of times. As a simple example: if HoT and PoF both would have added ten new 30min-1 hour dungeons and we would repeat them maybe 5 times this would be 50 weeks of content which keeps us busy. One new 15min fractal per year with no real reason to play it: maybe content for a month and then 11 months pause of playing GW2? That's a problem. I've seen many complaints by more casual teams/guilds that there is nothing to do in GW2.

    -You'll find many veteran players which are playing GW2 for years but don't know what combo fields are, got no clue about CC, proper builds or equip. That's not good. As comparision: in GW1 i started as a monk with mostly warrior skills. Enemies got stronger, my team needed more heal, I adapted step by step. At the end of doing story I was more or less running a meta build and was able to go into "raids". This progress was achieved by doing storycontent which is in GW1 teamcontent. You can see the performance of other players. You get advice. You see your own mistakes and learn. In open world I can run with no traits and green equip. As long as I tag the boss I'm fine and get my rewards. World bosses are not failing bc my dps is kitten. A world boss is not failing bc my healing build does not work. It shouldn't even fail, bc this would punish good players for being on a map with too many bad players. GW2 is incredible bad in teaching players how to play. An open world veteran is not raid ready.

    -GW2 isn't really supporting groups of mixed player skill. In GW1 there were simple roles, as dps. You could do "raids" with very simple instructions as "stick to player X" "stay there and don't move, no matter what happens" and all was good. Such a player contributed his dps, if he was going to get damaged a monk would protect him - so your team carried him and he still contributed. This is teamplay. In GW2 such a player is only a burden. He is dead on the floor (or even kills the whole team). This is a terrible experience for both sides. You can't even learn something, because you are dead and can't practice. So by my experience players in GW2 are much more demanding. It's a much bigger problem to bring an unexperienced player with you than in GW1. In consequence this results in less players being trained to become good players, resulting in a more divided community. People are not only asking for KP because they want a fast kill (which did exist in GW1, too), they ask for KP because they want success.

    -Schedules are problematic for many players. It's difficult to raid spontaneous. Especially as unexperienced or bad player who has more difficulties to pug. PUGs are more problematic bc see above: two good players can't really carry a team of bad players. To some degree, yes. But not as extreme as in other games.

    -Communities need some form of content which requires you to team up. That's a problem for guilds. Why join a guild? What has a guild to offer? Even open world communities - see GW2community (EU) got that problem. They formed for content as tequatl or triple trouble. Content which required some form of cooperation and knowledge. These communites give advice, train players, create builds, keep each other engaged in GW2, write news about the game, got community activities - overall its good to have such communities. But there is a lack of more demanding open world content, these communities are not required anymore - GW2community (EU) shut down. Why should I join some form of community (guild, voicechat, team, forum,....) when I'm fine with my green equipped staffguard on autoattack?

    -Content exclusive to one small group is not that relevant for Anet. Going by player numbers open world is very likely by far more relevant. This can result in less content being developed for such a small group. A good example for well made content were fractals. They cater to casuals and hardcoreplayers at the same time. Raid are exclusive content. A huge group of players is left without new content with each release. It's much more likely that Anet can't really justify money/dev hours being spend on such content. In the end it has to be worth it. Now fractals suffer from being old content. Their reward structure is outdated. Some players like them, others don't. You can't really put a 2 hour fractal into them, they have to be similar in length. Token can be spend from any fractal for the same rewards. Maybe it's time to create a "fractal 2.0" system which has also T1-T4 and CMs - but got new rewards and is maybe 30 min per map instead of 10 min. Or got a more dungeonlike design, so less focus on bossfights and a bit more trashmobs. No reason to abandon fractals, but I think an additional system is required since dungeons are dead and fractals alone are not good enough.

    TL;DR: GW2 is a game seperated into more casual open world solo players and a tiny group of hardcore raidplayers. Content in between is missing, making it difficult to step into raids. It hurts teams and communities a lot, since there is no content for casual and coregamers. GW2 is basically the opposite of GW1, which had a strong focus on casual- and coregamer teamcontent ("family and friends" guilds).

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 30, 2018

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cattastrophy.2874 said:
    Don't join groups or play with people who don't want the same things in the game as you do. They won't like you, you won't like them.

    That's one problem with raid system now. It mixes people with different goals in the same content, while at the same time being demanding enough that even small differences in opinion/behaviour can cause tempers to flare.

    I think thats a problem with almost every mode. Ticket farmers in PVP and WVW who just want rewards and dont want to enjoy the mode itself clash constantly with the more hardcore players of that mode.

    Yes, that's true. Basically, it happens every time you create a mode where players need to depend on each other, design it for a specific group of players, and then create rewards aimed at a completely different group of players. The more effort and teamplay the content requires, the more toxicity is going to happen.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cattastrophy.2874 said:
    Don't join groups or play with people who don't want the same things in the game as you do. They won't like you, you won't like them.

    That's one problem with raid system now. It mixes people with different goals in the same content, while at the same time being demanding enough that even small differences in opinion/behaviour can cause tempers to flare.

    I think thats a problem with almost every mode. Ticket farmers in PVP and WVW who just want rewards and dont want to enjoy the mode itself clash constantly with the more hardcore players of that mode.

    Yes, that's true. Basically, it happens every time you create a mode where players need to depend on each other, design it for a specific group of players, and then create rewards aimed at a completely different group of players. The more effort and teamplay the content requires, the more toxicity is going to happen.

    So what exactly is the advantage of making this content then, if it invariably breeds a toxic environment?

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • as long as the balance team uses the test golem as a benchmark to do their balancing, raiding is indeed destroying the game.

  • @Emberstone.2904 said:
    Where can I find this raid-training Discord? I've been wanting to try them out now that my Weaver is geared.

    Abit late to the party, but https://snowcrows.com/raids/training/ is one of the places.

  • Hot Boy.7138Hot Boy.7138 Member ✭✭✭

    Last year I wouldn't have agreed with this post, but my situation has changed. My guild's raid team fell apart last February/March, and since then I found it very difficult tog get into decent new groups. It's been so many months of this that I only log in now for the log in reward and just spend most of my time in Destiny 2 now.

  • @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cattastrophy.2874 said:
    Don't join groups or play with people who don't want the same things in the game as you do. They won't like you, you won't like them.

    That's one problem with raid system now. It mixes people with different goals in the same content, while at the same time being demanding enough that even small differences in opinion/behaviour can cause tempers to flare.

    I think thats a problem with almost every mode. Ticket farmers in PVP and WVW who just want rewards and dont want to enjoy the mode itself clash constantly with the more hardcore players of that mode.

    Yes, that's true. Basically, it happens every time you create a mode where players need to depend on each other, design it for a specific group of players, and then create rewards aimed at a completely different group of players. The more effort and teamplay the content requires, the more toxicity is going to happen.

    So what exactly is the advantage of making this content then, if it invariably breeds a toxic environment?

    The enjoyment people get out of group content is worth the risk of toxicity from a small number of people. If you remove all group content from an MMO you end up with a single player live service. This is not what gw2 is intended to be.

    Do you really want all dungeons, fractals, raids, wvw, pvp and group events removed from the game?

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cattastrophy.2874 said:
    Don't join groups or play with people who don't want the same things in the game as you do. They won't like you, you won't like them.

    That's one problem with raid system now. It mixes people with different goals in the same content, while at the same time being demanding enough that even small differences in opinion/behaviour can cause tempers to flare.

    I think thats a problem with almost every mode. Ticket farmers in PVP and WVW who just want rewards and dont want to enjoy the mode itself clash constantly with the more hardcore players of that mode.

    Yes, that's true. Basically, it happens every time you create a mode where players need to depend on each other, design it for a specific group of players, and then create rewards aimed at a completely different group of players. The more effort and teamplay the content requires, the more toxicity is going to happen.

    So what exactly is the advantage of making this content then, if it invariably breeds a toxic environment?

    The enjoyment people get out of group content is worth the risk of toxicity from a small number of people. If you remove all group content from an MMO you end up with a single player live service. This is not what gw2 is intended to be.

    Do you really want all dungeons, fractals, raids, wvw, pvp and group events removed from the game?

    You are confusing social content with group content.

    Dungeons, Fractals, and Raids, are group content as they require you to be in a group to play with other people, such they are group based content.

    WvW and open world like content IE: World Bosses, Meta Events, Dynamic Events, etc, are Social Content as they have no such requirement to group for anyone to contribute to the completion and receive a reward for doing so.

    Spare me the "Oh no it would be a Solo Game without group content" there is only Fractals, Dungeons and Raids that are group content, and there is a huge world of the game that is social content.

    They could get rid of the group content, BDO did, and it;s doing fine.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • borgs.6103borgs.6103 Member ✭✭✭

    Griffon timed adventures is on the verge of destroying huge segments of the gw2 community, if it hasn't already.
    First, it requires you to get the griffon, which is in itself a grind!
    Then you have to practice a lot to know how to maneuver your griffon in the adventures!
    Finally you have to challenge yourself to get gold on each adventure!

    Anet please remove Griffon timed adventures to the game!

    Apathy is death.

  • @STIHL.2489 said:

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cattastrophy.2874 said:
    Don't join groups or play with people who don't want the same things in the game as you do. They won't like you, you won't like them.

    That's one problem with raid system now. It mixes people with different goals in the same content, while at the same time being demanding enough that even small differences in opinion/behaviour can cause tempers to flare.

    I think thats a problem with almost every mode. Ticket farmers in PVP and WVW who just want rewards and dont want to enjoy the mode itself clash constantly with the more hardcore players of that mode.

    Yes, that's true. Basically, it happens every time you create a mode where players need to depend on each other, design it for a specific group of players, and then create rewards aimed at a completely different group of players. The more effort and teamplay the content requires, the more toxicity is going to happen.

    So what exactly is the advantage of making this content then, if it invariably breeds a toxic environment?

    The enjoyment people get out of group content is worth the risk of toxicity from a small number of people. If you remove all group content from an MMO you end up with a single player live service. This is not what gw2 is intended to be.

    Do you really want all dungeons, fractals, raids, wvw, pvp and group events removed from the game?

    You are confusing social content with group content.

    Dungeons, Fractals, and Raids, are group content as they require you to be in a group to play with other people, such they are group based content.

    WvW and open world like content IE: World Bosses, Meta Events, Dynamic Events, etc, are Social Content as they have no such requirement to group for anyone to contribute to the completion and receive a reward for doing so.

    Spare me the "Oh no it would be a Solo Game without group content" there is only Fractals, Dungeons and Raids that are group content, and there is a huge world of the game that is social content.

    They could get rid of the group content, BDO did, and it;s doing fine.

    GROUP events in pve. Literally have group in the name.
    PVP requires a group of 5 players
    WVW you can play without a group but your success as a server depends on group play.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:
    WVW you can play without a group but your success as a server depends on group play.

    If you haven't noticed, one of the problems of WvW today is that way too many players there (including many of veterans) do not really care about success of their server.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

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